871:"insurrection" (protest against or attempt to overthrow or defy a regime) or as "terrorism" (intimidating a population in order to sway its attitudes and plans). They indicated it was vengeance against Shi'ites for alleged attacks against Sunnis and that it was religious persecution for their supposed apostacy. That does not make them terrorists any more than were the people who wiped out Christian communities deemed to be heretical a few hundred years ago in a sort of religious genocide. "Terrorism" has recently swollen to become a pejorative catch-all and "insurgency" has become a blanket term that seems to cover every Arab or Moslem in Iraq who is actively, especially violently, working against U.S. wishes even if he or she is not primarily interested in frustrating, humiliating, expelling or destroying the U.S. The argument over whether the people who perpetrated the mortar attack are justified or not, right or wrong, good or bad, terrorists, partisans, zealots or whatever is irrelevant to the Knowledge article.
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insurgency in Iraq don't have to play by those rules to be engaged in legitimate conflict (however reprehensible attacking civilians is to our modern sensibilities). I would have as much reason to change the text "terrorists" to "insurgents" because I see it as a less loaded term (and a more accruate one), and frankly we don't have any real detailed information about the nature or identity of the mortar attackers, like their political or group affiliation. I changed it to "attackers" so that we don't have to get engaged in a revert war. If evidence comes in later indicating their motive or allegiance, we can change it then, when we know what we are talking about.
590:. That's why it has to be included in Knowledge. Iraq's tragedy is that it have been torn to peices by Islam. Just 1400 years ago Iraq was half Christian / half Zarahustrian, and the shiite cult is basicly a revival of their original Christian faith in a distorted way. These poor Iraqi's were lead to believe that they were responsible for the death of Mohammed's grandson and torture themselves every year to relieve the guilt that they never earned. Iraq is dead along with the 1000 who died on the bridge. But it has been dead for centuries anyway. It's soul still roams the land but it's body is in continuous decay. ( from the mouth of a contemporary eye witness )
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stampede—is cogent in the
Knowledge article. Similarly, the earlier explosions near the destination mosque, the rumors of poisoned water and food being offered by people in the neighborhood before the the stampede, and the efforts by neighborhood people to rescue the pilgrims are an important part of the history both of the stampede and of the invasion. However, contrasting the stampede death toll with statistics of other events occurring since an arbitrary date (the start of the current invasion) fails to provide useful perspective and certainly does not belong in the opening paragraph of the article. Out it goes (again).
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victims. These poor people who as I heard came mostly from Sadr city ( previously known as al-Thawra district ie revolution and later Saddam city later now Sadr city ) are poor naive people, who thought that by going on this bridge they are practicing a religious freedom that was denied for decades...ironic because religious freedom is an oximoron when it comes to their religion ( not mine anymore ) ....this is the begining of Iraq's
911:, which we rightly have a big article on, but if the estimates I'm hearing are correct and it's anything from several hundred to a few thousand, then this is of a similar order of magnitude. As the biggest single loss of life in Iraq since the invasion, even with all the current problems there this will be remembered for a long time to come. I don't see anything wrong with its inclusion in Knowledge. —
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I have edited the entire section to render this discussion moot. Readers of any intelligence are perfectly capable of figuring out for themselves whether an Al-Qaeda linked group that attacks crowds of religious pilgrims with mortars consists of terrorists or not; it isn't really necessary to decide
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I have to concur with those saying it's not encyclopedic or terribly notable. Perhaps if it were a situation in which the people responding said something out of character - a country known to have conflict with Iraq expressing remorse for example - then it might be notable. Countries humanitarian
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It was a disaster. It doesn't matter if it was terrorism or not. It's an event that is being reported internationally. If
Hurricane Katrina and the 9/11 Attacks get their own entries, the Stampede gets its own as well. WikiNews covers current events. Knowledge covers history. This is going to become
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A lot of this depends on whether you see the insurgents in Iraq as fighting a legitimate conflict or as terrorists. I know that attacking civilian targets is frowned upon by The Geneva
Conventions and other basic standards of conflict as adhered to by the states that invent them, but members of the
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Wrong. It should not have been re-added. No one responded to the question about being "wrong" because the issue was already discussed on this talk page. Please refer to the postings on this page under "Encyclopedic". Knowledge eschews sensationalism in favor of a "long" historical perspective. The
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I often do a bit of editing of current events articles, or at least just have a look and see how they're coming along. The "world reaction" quotes that often appear are totally inappropriate in every case. They make the article look like a news story and represent a fundamental misunderstanding of
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had a known "trigger". The crowd in question may have been particularly edgy, government preparations for the pilgrimage may have been inadequate, and passage across the bridge may have been constricted because of US military actitivies, so that discussion of the pre-conditions—the context of the
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The mortar attack of 2 hours prior to the stampede is relevant in having predisposed the crowd to fearing that a further attack on Shi'ite pilgrims was imminent. In any case, the group claiming responsibility did not depict that attack as "insurgency" (part of an effort to replace a regime) or as
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Who cares what their political or group affiliation is? Terrorism is about means, not ends. Armed rebellion against government is not terrorism by default, but intentional targeting of civilians is, no matter what their politics. We have all the detailed information we need about them: they
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This bridge is walking distance from where I used to live. In fact you could see it from our doorstep. I crossed this bridge many times, in the good old days when religion was a ghost. The bridge is certainly not 30 meters high! 9 meters I would agree. It's painful to read what happened to the
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deliberately targeted civilians. Ergo, they are terrorists. As far as "modern sensibilities", I'm going to take a stand and say that deliberately targeting civilians is objectively wrong, and that our revulsion against it isn't some passing fad. Peddle moral relativism somewhere else. --
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The section on "World reaction" adds nothing encyclopedic… just totally predictable almost ceremonial expressions of sorrow, condolence and/or condemnation. Unless the "world" reacts in some surprising or effective manner, this section should be deleted.
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Unforuntately, many words in this part of the
English language vocabulary have taken a distorted common meaning as a result of political events of recent years. You are correct. By definition, such an act is terrorism (as opposed to
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being especially notable.), when describing terrorism. People who fire mortars into a corwd of people for a political purpose or to create fear are terrorists. Enough with this post modern moral equivalence.
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count of other deaths possibly attributable to the latest invasion of Iraq is not relevant to this stampede, so no comparison is appropriate. Whether a stampede occurs in a large, tightly-packed crowd is a
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of acts of terrorism, but I don't think the EU, Nato, or Iran accused all those thousands of panicking people of being terrorists. Someone familiar with what those bodies actually said please change it.
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The Syrian government and people express their sympathy to Iraqis and to the families of the victims, and they wait for the day when security, stability and progress reign in the country.
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I've edited the article to reflect this. The 30 foot figure sounds much more accurate - from the photos of the bridge, it is most *definitely* not a 295 foot high bridge. —
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1111:" These bland statements are always churned out by world leaders and everyone else in situations like this. As the anon says above, this is yawnsomely un-notable. —
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Being bold. Here is the removed 'world reaction'. If any seems unusual, put it back in. If any seems quoteworthy to be saved for 100 years, put it in wikiquotes.
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I couldn't agree more. These bland words are not real reactions, they are just diplomatic protocol. This relatively large section doesn't add a thing. --
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This bridge is not famous enough to be in the title, and from what I know, this is the only bridge stampede in
Baghdad's history of encyclopedic merit.
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what an encyclopedia article should be. They could be moved to
Wikiquote or Wikinews if you're really keen on them, but have you even read them? "
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In a news article, world reaction would be appropriate. In an encyclopedia, that every leader said it was a Bad Thing is yawnsomely un-notable.
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I find it utterly absurd that anyone might suggest that a currentn event involving the death of a thousand people is not encyclopaedic. --
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Hmm, the count seemed to have went up about 200 since my last visit to this page. This was a pretty interesting attack if you ask me. --
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1193:. " has been removed. I would have thought this quite important, and worthy of inclusion on the opening paragraph.. why am I wrong? --
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It is said the bridge was 30 meters high over the river, so most people were killed instantly upon impact on water or the riverbed.
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If it was an accidental Mecca-type stampede, then it's not encyclopedic, but this has hints of terrorism, so it's worth including.
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article can't decide on a standard definition, it may be safer not to use the term here and just move this discussion to the
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Easy! I was only asking a question - it's not like I was submitting this to VfD (or AfD as we now know it) or anything... -
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responses are also fairly notable, but mere quotes that express empathy kind of go without saying. Just my opinion --
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makes no mention of a collapse, and many articles are saying that people jumped from the bridge to save themselves. --
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No, this is important. Even if they are bland statements, there are notable, historic documents and encyclopedic. --
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a notable event in Iraq history, as officials have said pilgrimages need to be organized better in the future.
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Isn't the intentional targetting of civilians a cut and dry example of terrorism? Or is this word becoming
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I find that a somewhat surprising comment, Ta bu. We have articles on much smaller stampede-type events (
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I know, about 1000 people died in it. That's only 1/3 of the people who died during the
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
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I agree. Unnecessary rhetorical flourishes are better reserved for
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No, should not be deleted. That´s even the world reaction. --
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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Since when is "terrorism" a prerequisite for encyclopedic?
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Of course, 30 meters is just under 100 feet, not 295. *g*
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Do we have a reference for the supposed bridge collapse?
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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Unfortuneatly some media sources have become afraid of
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Isn't this a news story, better suited to
Wikinews? -
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to describe those who carried out the mortar attack?
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A fact from this article was featured on
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1201:Right then.. I'll re-add it. --
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1218:catastrophe
529:reports 30
378:Iraq portal
229:Start-class
205:section on
202:On this day
148:free images
31:not a forum
1385:Categories
1340:Page views
1147:Death Toll
693:insurgents
689:terrorists
668:kidnapping
660:insurgents
647:insurgents
639:Al Jazeera
635:terrorists
631:Al Jazeera
513:Citation?
459:photograph
1315:this tool
1308:this tool
1113:Trilobite
960:Saforrest
913:Trilobite
843:Aquillion
821:Aquillion
794:page. --
788:terrorism
720:Terrorism
672:beheading
588:Untergang
197:Main Page
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1369:Leo1pard
1321:Cheers.—
1254:cbignore
1139:jcomp489
1078:Done. --
1051:Done. --
1016:Cyberman
830:Klonimus
758:Klonimus
606:contribs
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548:ceejayoz
463:included
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1358:and on
1331::Online
1283:checked
1248:my edit
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1080:ThomasK
1053:ThomasK
572:Reuters
519:Fighter
427:on the
322:on the
199:in the
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
1262:nobots
1172:result
1154:Acetic
1024:attack
944:Acetic
664:mortar
643:rebels
535:meters
533:, not
497:Bridge
487:Upload
478:Flickr
235:scale.
126:Google
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649:. --
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539:Tyagi
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1373:talk
1287:true
1177:Zero
992:talk
676:Iraq
670:and
608:) --
600:talk
531:feet
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162:FENS
136:news
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