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when it comes to standings, the WBC appears to rank teams based on how far they have advanced within the tournament regardless of other factors. The
Netherlands for instance are clearly the #4 team despite having a worse winning percentage than the Cubans because of how far they progressed. By that logic and to keep continuity throughout the tournament you would place the teams who came farthest from advancing at the bottom of the standings and then use TQB as a tie breaker. Looking at previous tournaments is a poor source due to modified double elimination in 2009 preventing this scenario and this particular conflict not occurring in 2006. The "eliminated teams" section of the link provided above is interesting to note, but clearly only sorted by TQB and not taking any other factors into account, nothing is stating them as final standing. Since the only clearly defined final standings that have been stated end at the Round Robin stage, I would suggest placing an additional separation of "Relegated to Qualifiers" below "Eliminated First Round" like this:
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clearly bases all other final placement of team on how far a team has advanced within the tournament. Under the existing rules, which is relegation of the bottom team in each pool, would place those teams in the lowest tier of advancement possible. Unfortunately it's a dilemma for both scenarios when it comes to available documentation, because simply there is nothing concrete. We can only hope once the tournament is concluded that more light is shed on this subject, but from a logic standpoint placing relegated teams in a bottom tier of the standings simply makes the most sense if we don't have any concrete evidence because it is more in line with how other standings are determined for farther advancing teams.
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In 2006, Puerto Rico finished 5th and
Venezuela 7th even though Venezuela finished 3rd and Puerto Rico 4th in Pool 2, second round due to head to head (second round was round-robin then). Of course, Puerto Rico had the better record, not the same record. Still, the 3rd place team didn't automatically
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I haven't seen an official reasoning behind the pools, but I do notice that each pool contains a semifinalist from 2009, a team that made the second round (but not the semifinals) in 2009, a team that had a 1-2 record and was bounced out of the first round in 2009, and a team that had to qualify into
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The source in my opinion while interesting, states nothing about it correlating to final standings and doesn't number any of the teams. It simply sorts them by TQB. It also tends to fly in the face of any other rules that have been set down to determine final standings within the tournament, which
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I honestly look at it a completely different way than what has been suggested by anyone here. Quite frankly there is zero official ruling on final standings that isn't speculation, but it is clear how the 2013 WBC lists final standings within the Round Robin stage and these are the teams in question
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Since there is no official rule for ranking, while their is an official stance on who gets sent to the qualifiers it would make more sense to present the standings by ranking the 3rd place teams against each other, followed by the 4th placed teams. If the either the world cup or world classic had a
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First of all I don't like your wording as it makes you sound like your the final word. Second, while is it relevant if it's an international event on this detail? The even is and always has been hosted by MLB. The official website for the even uses the 24-hour format. Shouldn't we based our stuff on
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Only if both rules comport equally well with the sources would it then be up to us to decide between them. And, in fact, I hope that's not the case (i.e., I hope that only one plausible set of rules reproduces the sourced standings) because I hate it when WP editors are making things up apart from
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The article's "Format" section clearly says that the tournament's final standings are based on overall TQB, though this appears to need a source. On the other hand, having to qualify for the 2017 tournament depends on placing within one's own group. I think there's some sense to this, though this
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That document specifically says on the first page that it applies only to 2009. Also, it does not mention the WBC except for one place where it notes that the usual rules for nationality do not apply to "the World
Baseball Classic and other non-official IBAF tournaments". So it's not clear to me
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Should there be an entry for game time in UTC? I didn't initially think this would be needed but the official page from WBC only lists local and
Eastern time. The minor problem here being Eastern time is variable during the tournament. It skips ahead an hour early Sun Mar 10th. I'd personally feel
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Once again, the official website uses 'Taiwan' as the host, not 'Chinese Taipei' or 'Republic of China'. Until it does, this page should retain the 'Taiwan' usage in the list of hosts. Twice today it has been changed with no justification. Don't do it. It violates the NPOV rules of
Knowledge.
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in the 2011 Baseball World Cup, Japan finished higher than
Chinese Taipei because they won the head-to-head, but ties between the Dominican Republic, Italy and Puerto Rico, and between Germany and Greece were left as ties (for 9th and 15th, respectively) because there was not a full head-to-head
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of the Round 1 results from the official WBC website (which ranks the eliminated teams by record and then by TQB, placing the relegated Mexico above the non-relegated Canada and China) reflects the final standings. If it's convincing, then that's what we should go with. If it's not convincing
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Incidentally, the comment that "this year's WBC is affiliated with MLB" seems to imply that other years might be different; in fact, the WBC is wholly a production of MLB (which invites various national bodies to participate), and I have heard of no plans for it to be made independent of MLB.
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Which format do we officially use? The official website uses the 12-hour format but precedent for tournaments on wiki uses 24-hour format. I would prefer to follow the 12 hour format, because not only does the host organization use it, but most average joe's by my understanding use the 12-hour
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I feel it makes the most sense to use the head to head tie breaker in the case placing Canada ahead of Mexico, since that is clearly stated in the WBC rules. TQB should remain a secondary tiebreaker, and is fair to use among teams who have not competed against each other for final standings.
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I found citations for Canada and Brazil. They are now in the article. Spain therefore must be in Group A. I don't have a cite, so if you really want you can put "TBD" but since we have cites for the other three qualifiers and the other three pools, that's the the only place they can go.
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between them. I would assume the WBC would use the same procedure since it is an IBAF tournament. No mention is made of TQB, but that may be new. It says in the article the tiebreakers are based on IBAF rules. Can anyone actually find the IBAF rules? That might be helpful.
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The IBAF definitely issues overall rankings because they use them to compute the ranking of national teams which require all teams in the tournament to be ranked one by one. We just need a citation that the criterea used to rank them that we use are in fact correct.
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The official website notes 'Taiwan' as host rather than 'Chinese Taipei' and have edited accordingly. As this is the nomenclature used by the official website, this should be how it is presented here, no matter how much ranting and whining the
Chinese do here.
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I don't see any conflict. The source cited above that puts Canada ahead of Mexico relates only to ties within pools, not the overall standings. So we only have the source that puts Mexico ahead of Canada, and therefore that's what we need to go with.
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but it does not give any indication how to compare teams that have not played each other. The tie-breaking rule for 2009 (in section c) does compare teams who had not played each other, but I don't know if that should be viewed as only for that
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Tiebreaker rules clearly list Head to Head as the first tiebreaker for WBC play, although it is only stating this for pool play one would assume this should also be applied to final standings. TQB is used when head to head does not apply.
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Is there a source for the final standings at the bottom of the page? It seems just as likely to me that the four 4th-place teams would be the last 4 teams, regardless of the TQB score. Thus, Mexico may be team 13, regardless of TQB.
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Well, seeing as we have sources for the placement of 3 of the 4 qualifiers, process of elimination would put the last (Spain) in Pool A. Can't argue with that. Surprised the WBC folks haven't issued a press release about it yet.
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I think it would be better if the organization of the WBC decides to drop the "4th ranked team needs to qualify for the next classic"-rule. I think it should be decided on TQB. China should qualify for 2017, instead of Mexico.
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Since Mexico has to go to the qualifiers and China does not, should China be ranked higher than Mexico despite their tie-breaker? Canada will finish higher than Mexico due to head to head, despite the tie-breaking formula.
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and compare it to the "final standings" section of wikipedia page. Is this a coincidence? I don't think so. And, if you want to see the official sources about final standings of 2006 and 2009 WBC, see 88 page of 2011 IBAF
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The use of 12-hour format on the WBC website is a point in favor of that format, while the international character of the tournament might be a point in favor of the 24-hour format. If needed, we might just have a little
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Thank you, Leesw616. Both these sources are convincing as to what the rankings were and are. They really need to be cited in the pages of the 2006, 2009, and 2013 WBCs and anywhere else that the rankings are
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is irrelevant. It probably does so because "Taiwan" can refer to either the country or the island, and the person who made the redirect probably thought that the reference to the country was more common.
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consistent formula with published final standings, we could infer some basis of a rule, but that is not so. I believe the rules for final ranking should be removed, and the standings changed.
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That tiebreak that would place Canada ahead of Mexico only applies to breaking ties within a pool. It doesn't apply to the overall standings, or if it does, it doesn't say it in the source.
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is most unhelpful, saying only that the 12/24 decision is "based on context." I interpret that to mean that either format is acceptable, and it hardly seems worth arguing over.
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The question, though, is not whether you "feel" that that would make sense, but whether that rule would reproduce the sourced WBC standings that Leesw616 has pointed out. --
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I take it that the official sources use TQB, which stands for what? Why use that instead of "net run rate" which actually is a pretty good description of the statistic?
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As for your guess of the tiebreaker rules, the connection you point out is at least suggestive and maybe compelling. I'm not sure yet what I think of whether this is
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The WBC Twitter confirms the third placed team in each group will automatically qualify to the 2017 Championship. Would it be good to include this in the pool tables?
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IBAF has updated its Men’s
Baseball World Rankings and I compared last ranking points with current. As a result, final standings of 2013 WBC is correct. Mexico =: -->
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ranking of WBC teams, I do not think WP should be making up what we think it might be. Rather, we should list all teams with the same outcome as being tied. --
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https://web.archive.org/web/20121125112051/http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2012-05-21/world-baseball-classic-ryan-braun-ian-kinsler-kevin-youkilis
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In fact, I've never seen a official rule for 2013 WBC final standings. I'm just guessing. But... let's see the "Round 1 - Eliminated Teams:" section of
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is not a proper forum for discussing what ought to be. With different criteria, it's not surprising that the results might be different. --
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the host? I see people saying "this is standard practice" but they don't cite a policy, guideline or an MOS. Would you care to provide one?
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as referring to the island, not the political entities that lay claim to it. For the geographical location, this seems appropriate. --
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As host 'Taiwan' is used, but the team is called 'Chinese Taipei', so it's no wonder it's a bit confusing for readers.--
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Probably best to say that every team that didn't advance to the second round is tied for 9th place, unless we have a
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I haven't seen anything official about qualifier placements (except for
Chinese Taipei in Pool B which is mentioned
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that adding it would clutter things up a little but that minor hiccup there makes me wonder if it should be done.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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So who put together the first round pools? And under which premises? --Hoffmansk 20:24, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
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http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2012-05-21/world-baseball-classic-ryan-braun-ian-kinsler-kevin-youkilis
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to see where we stand. "Support" for changing to the 12 hour format, "Oppose" is keeping the 24 hour format.
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But how do we define "same outcome"? Is Mexico in fourth at 1-2 tied with teams who finished third at 1-2?
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China will qualify for the 2017 WBC under the current system. I think you mean Mexico instead of China.
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Its bad news to hear about game between Mexico and Canada wasn't successful,the game went on a fight
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http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2012-05-21/israel-baseball-coach-ausmus-says-team-can-contend
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The IBAF updated it, as you said yourself, not the WBC, the WBC does not release Final standings.--
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Fab!an may have meant that China should have to participate in the qualifying round for 2017. --
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But the WBC is not organized by the IBAF, so an IBAF yearbook has no bearing on the WBC.--
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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that these rules should even apply to the 2009 WBC, still less to this year's version.
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http://www.worldbaseballclassic.com/wbc/2013/teams/index.jsp?team=pur&team_id=897
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http://www.ibaf.org/en/infopage-detail.aspx?id=6ce46799-80df-41f5-848b-2f10a25479ee
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What's the official source that Puerto Rico finished 5th and Venezuela 7th?--
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http://www.shalomlife.com/news/13276/jews-to-play-in-baseball-all-star-game/
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This is fine, but the IBAF yearbook that you cite below is better. --
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finish behind the 4th place team. I'd assume it's the same.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Also I have shortened the name for the Taiwan stadium.
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If it's sourced, I think it's definitely relevant. --
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any ranking for the teams eliminated in Round 1. --
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fifth overall in both the 2006 and 2009 tournaments
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1285:23:02, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
1261:21:27, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
1036:and see a list of open tasks.
791:WikiProject Japan to do list:
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3097:C-Class Puerto Rico articles
2849:13:07, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
1042:Knowledge:WikiProject Taiwan
780:Japanese baseball task force
3157:WikiProject Taiwan articles
3057:Taiwanese baseball articles
2863:2013 World Baseball Classic
2676:13:50, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
1914:2009 World Baseball Classic
1912:I just did some digging on
1100:13:44, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
1045:Template:WikiProject Taiwan
913:to articles that need them.
852:Featured content candidates
736:Knowledge:WikiProject Japan
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3142:WikiProject Japan articles
3067:C-Class Caribbean articles
3027:Japanese baseball articles
2956:(last update: 5 June 2024)
2858:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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1613:04:27, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
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1376:12-hour vs 24-hour formats
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2089:or whether it's okay. --
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1635:08:47, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
1619:Qualification to 2017 WBC
1581:13:36, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
1559:13:36, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
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1501:07:38, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
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2857:
2841:96.18.200.85
2838:
2810:— Preceding
2806:
2781:Anaxagoras13
2727:— Preceding
2688:
2684:this ranking
2662:— Preceding
2660:
2653:
2205:
2153:sources. --
2115:— Preceding
2001:
1911:
1810:Anaxagoras13
1808:See above.--
1791:
1764:Anaxagoras13
1724:
1711:Anaxagoras13
1682:Anaxagoras13
1667:MrArticleOne
1663:
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1329:199.71.183.2
1297:
1277:199.71.183.2
1270:
1228:— Preceding
1224:
1201:71.255.85.81
1122:Anaxagoras13
1088:
1063:
1023:
954:
942:
933:
932:Create some
924:
916:
908:
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895:Vinland Saga
894:
887:
874:
867:
860:
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851:
837:
829:
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719:
699:project page
687:
681:
675:Japan portal
610:
574:Project Talk
562:
543:
478:
438:
371:
333:
304:welcome page
296:project page
285:
212:
192:
172:
150:
110:
40:WikiProjects
2712:Smartyllama
2693:BlueMoonlet
2646:−0.486 TQB
2620:−0.467 TQB
2594:−0.318 TQB
2538:−0.534 TQB
2512:−0.308 TQB
2486:−0.154 TQB
2450:South Korea
2429:−0.190 TQB
2310:Netherlands
2230:Tiebreaker
2173:Smartyllama
2155:BlueMoonlet
2136:BlueMoonlet
2091:BlueMoonlet
2042:BlueMoonlet
2024:Smartyllama
2006:BlueMoonlet
1982:tournament.
1968:Smartyllama
1950:Smartyllama
1930:BlueMoonlet
1878:BlueMoonlet
1853:BlueMoonlet
1839:Smartyllama
1746:BlueMoonlet
1697:Smartyllama
1642:BlueMoonlet
1471:Precisely.
1455:BlueMoonlet
1347:Some Notes:
1314:Smartyllama
1174:BlueMoonlet
1140:BlueMoonlet
1108:ludahai 魯大海
1092:ludahai 魯大海
897:(TV series)
831:Peer review
695:participate
454:Puerto Rico
445:Puerto Rico
401:Puerto Rico
3001:Categories
2988:Report bug
2403:0.103 TQB
1680:Exactly.--
1542:straw poll
1536:Straw poll
1439:WP:MOSTIME
705:, and see
300:discussion
2971:this tool
2964:this tool
2911:dead link
2636:Australia
2476:Venezuela
2063:yearbook(
1660:Standings
1493:Skywayman
1234:Hoffmansk
944:translate
309:Caribbean
292:Caribbean
242:Caribbean
72:Taiwanese
2977:Cheers.—
2824:contribs
2816:Luvepoli
2812:unsigned
2803:Comments
2751:Leesw616
2729:unsigned
2664:unsigned
2117:unsigned
2087:WP:SYNTH
2069:Leesw616
1984:18abruce
1897:18abruce
1732:Leesw616
1447:WP:!VOTE
1402:Disagree
1381:format.
1242:contribs
1230:unsigned
869:Pictures
862:Articles
643:Baseball
126:Baseball
117:baseball
64:Japanese
59:Baseball
2915:tag to
2867:my edit
2689:without
1627:Gonzaka
1565:Support
1406:Great50
1166:Ireland
1066:on the
879:: None
872:: None
865:: None
805:history
760:on the
724:Refresh
613:on the
481:on the
336:on the
153:on the
30:C-class
2907:Added
2749:13th.
2584:Brazil
2559:Mexico
2502:Canada
2082:given.
2002:actual
1825:FAB!AN
1602:Oppose
1586:Oppose
1575:Head90
1570:CRRays
1553:Head90
1548:CRRays
1514:Head90
1509:CRRays
1480:Head90
1475:CRRays
1428:Head90
1423:CRRays
1390:Head90
1385:CRRays
1253:Schoop
1192:Taiwan
1158:Taiwan
1136:Taiwan
1039:Taiwan
1030:Taiwan
986:Taiwan
956:Assess
842:: None
834:: None
579:Alerts
68:Korean
36:scale.
2610:Spain
2528:China
2393:Italy
2284:Japan
2221:Team
2038:WP:RS
1589:Zwart
941:Help
876:Lists
815:purge
810:watch
733:Japan
715:Reiwa
689:Japan
638:Japan
2845:talk
2835:TQB?
2820:talk
2785:talk
2755:talk
2737:talk
2716:talk
2672:talk
2341:Cuba
2177:talk
2125:talk
2073:talk
2028:talk
1988:talk
1979:here
1972:talk
1954:talk
1926:here
1924:and
1922:here
1901:talk
1843:talk
1829:talk
1814:talk
1799:talk
1768:talk
1736:talk
1715:talk
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1686:talk
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1593:talk
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1362:Talk
1333:talk
1318:talk
1298:Talk
1281:talk
1273:here
1257:talk
1238:talk
1205:talk
1126:talk
1112:talk
1096:talk
907:Add
800:edit
145:High
2945:RfC
2901:to
2891:to
2881:to
2625:16
2599:15
2573:14
2548:13
2517:12
2491:11
2465:10
2218:Rk
2067:).
1727:."
1058:Low
752:Mid
717:6)
711:JST
605:Low
473:Low
328:Mid
3003::
2958:.
2953:}}
2949:{{
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2224:W
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1453:--
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1207:)
1184:)
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1128:)
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1098:)
899:,
892::
854:–
713:,
641::
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245::
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70:/
66:/
62::
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938:.
782:.
764:.
728:)
720:(
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485:.
340:.
197:.
177:.
157:.
42::
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