1384:, the sitter returned to France in 1777 and - after considerable protest - d'Eon was resigned to Louis XVI's stipulation that at all times thereafter they dress in female costume. Despite earlier prints showing the Chevalier in female dress, this appears to be the first indisputable record of d'Eon in female clothing. This change led to a shift in attitude from the press and printmakers. D'Eon was now regarded as a heroine, a woman whose patriotic fervour had inspired her to disguise herself in order to fight for her country. D'Eon was compared to Minerva (see 1902,1011.7149 for an example of this iconography in an English print), to an Amazon and to Joan of Arc. Indeed, the autobiography written at the end of d'Eon's life, but not published until 2001, was titled "La Pucelle de Tonnerre" in a direct homage to Joan ('la Pucelle'). For the autobiography, see "The Maiden of Tonnerre", Johns Hopkins University Press, 2001.
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but failed to critically examine any source texts from d'Eon or those from her time living as a woman. Since the 2014 RfC, most discussions have centered on this gap of what d'Eon self identified as. Most remarks made since the RfC against female pronouns have said that evidence of self referential pronouns would be sufficient, with a slight majority saying that they believed that even without a clear example of self-referential pronouns in writing from d'Eon that the evidence was clear to employ female pronouns for her.
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cleaning up I noticed various other pages which reference
Chevalier d'Eon citing that coroners report to mean radically different things) when there was - as I understand it - a heavy implication that an inspection occured prior to d'Eon's return to france, as well as a suggestion by a close friend with potentially intimate (in both senses of the word) knowledge that they had always been female. Obviously if no reliable sources report on such things, it is OR and does not belong.
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with my warlike and political exploits. He tried by an ignoble trick to rob me of the esteem which is the consolation of my existence. I oppose him and make mock of his futile anger. He is
Thersites who should be whipped for his insolence in attacking people who are of far greater worth than himself and whom he should respect. I denounce him and delilver him up to the women of my century for having conspired to acquire credit at the expense of a woman, to get rich on
1775:(As a side note to #2: I would appreciate a discussion about how much weight the article gives the coroners report compared to earlier 'gender confirmations' conducted during d'Eon's time in England, or the private letter between d'Eon and Madame de Courcelle - d'Eon's close life long friend and potential lover who could be understood as explicitly stating that they had seen d'Eon's genitals first hand and rebuked a man for claiming d'Eon was biologically male.)
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pronouns/identities, I am struggling to see the a single pronoun covering it in a way that is encyclopaedic. I think it's great that a more in depth examination of the sources is being used to add to this article but I am concerned to pronoun change makes d'Eon's identity less clear not more. For reference I support the page move, that seems like a straight forwardly positive reorganisation.
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differently according to different people of different relation to Marsha. D'Eon does not fit this narrow room for argument, as their latest gender identity and pronouns seem clear. D'Eon's distaste for female clothes in favor of her military uniform is not sufficient evidence to overrule gender identity.
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4. Most importantly regarding the 2014 RfC... there was no engagement with the source material. The RfC primarily concerned itself with discussing it from a zoomed out lense from the perspective of d'Eon being beyond our modern conception of transgender due to being removed from us by two centuries -
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kind as having proved that the qualities and virtues of which men are so proud have not been denied our sex.... I have felt outraged that a certain theatrical boaster has not dared to look the
Chevalier D'eon in the face, he a plebian who was occupied in making clocks chime while all Europe resounded
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She used she/her pronouns for herself in her own writings. She/her pronouns were used for her by everyone who knew her in life prior to the death and the revelation of her genitals. She/her pronouns are mandated by MOS Gender
Identity. Her last known identity, legally, publicly, and personally, was
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The evidence is in her own words. She authored an autobiography, which was unfinished, but which is referenced in the book "Monsieur d'Eon is a Woman" by Dr. Gary Kates. In her autobiography she expressly claimed to be a woman. This was one of the last things she wrong before her death, making her
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Just removed the gendered pronouns that had crept in in recent edits: one reference to the
Chevalier as "him" in the revision of 12:05 2 March 2018 by 11614soup; and two references to d'Éon as "she" in the revision of 11:01 9 August 2018 by 37.205.58.146, an IP that has many warnings on its talk page
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3. The most comprehensive arguments were made from those suggesting that the majority of sources referred to d'Eon with male pronouns, or as a 'transvestite' and therefore the article should reflect this. The first sentence of the MOS:GENDERID states: "Give precedence to self-designation as reported
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Initially I reverted a change regarding the pronouns used in this article but I sense I've made a mistake here. I do agree and think, considering the use of she/her for her by her contemporaries (as reported in these sources, and the sources saying she lived as a woman, it might be time to use those
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We don't know Eon's thoughts but we do know that a desire to return to France was an overriding consideration, and in order to achieve that, as described in the article, Eon was "made to resume the costume of that sex", a condition to which Eon "submitted". But in protest to that, Eon, despite being
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coming down after almost the entirety of the 2014 RfC was conducted but prior to it's closure two weeks later. I bring this up not to browbeat those who may oppose this edit, but rather to further justify why the 2014 RfC is outdated, and the recent conversations are sufficient to change the page.
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Finally to conclude I believe it is important to note that at the time of the original RfC, transgender individuals were not widely accepted to the level of today. 'Transvestite' or other words which have fallen out of favor over the past decade were commonly employed to pathologize, diminish, or
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where a similar MOS exception is used as d'Eon to avoid pronouns entirely (despite most sources referring to
Johnson as a transwoman with she/her pronouns) due to there being a lack of clarity on their self identification due to - as I understand the talk page discussion - referring to themselves
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2. Several users conflated Sex and Gender. D'Eon is - as best as I understand all of the evidence - still of unclear sex. There are arguments for and against her being biologically male, female, or intersex. Regardless of consensus or lack of consensus for any of these, it does not impact d'Eon's
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Provided this can be verified it makes clear that she used female pronouns for herself. Given that
Knowledge does not assign pronouns off of birth sex (though d'Eon successfully petitioned two governments to be recognized as AFAB - remarkable for the time) but rather self ID, the article should
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The lede is ambiguous as to their biological sex, even though the main body specifies that they had '"male organs in every respect perfectly formed", while at the same time displaying feminine characteristics.' This strongly suggests these "androgynous physical characteristics" were mainly male
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Author Edna Nixon in her biography of d'Eon on page 178-179 when examining the text of the order, asserts the phrasing of "as was previously made necessary through her service to the late King" as " the responsibility for her wearing male garments on Louis XV". In this regard the wording of the
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1. A lot of nuanced detail which would help readers understand the specific events (namely their service in Russia, their time in
England, the negotiation process to return to France, and her relations to others and their reactions to her return as a woman) surrounding the time they moved from
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My issue is a different one. This is a historical figure who identified with different pronouns at different times in their life. Knowledge guidelines rightfully prefer the last reliable self-ID but in a historical account in which a substantial fraction of the notable coverage is split across
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That's quite a long way off the statement in the article, though? It doesn't specify that this recognition took place after d'Eon's return to
England in 1786 (given that d'Eon was also in England 1763-77); or that d'Eon petitioned for this; and it's ambiguous whether this refers to the English
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While reading a few sources and books on d'Eon it stood out to me that the article is severely lacking in detail on their life as a woman as well as their time in
England prior to returning to France. As noted above I also think there is perhaps too much emphasis on the coroners report (while
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That being said d’Eon does use "elle" for herself in this letter which is equivalent to “she”. She also refers to herself throughout as a “femme” (woman) and signs it in the feminine “La Chevaliere d’Eon”. So the choice to use “her” in translation makes sense as it’s keeping with how d’Eon is
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to show that d'Eon self identified as a woman (quite adamantly, frankly). There was also a link to an example of d'Eon using feminine pronouns for themselves in English, but the BritishMuseum link for it has since died. D'Eon's brother likewise used female pronouns in English to refer to her
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erase transgender individuals throughout history and the present. Though Knowledge had already written the original versions of MOS:IDENTITY and GENDERID, they have since become more fleshed out due to arguments elsewhere requiring them to. Knowledge was only a year removed from the
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I do not speak French and can not track down the source, but Edna Nixon's biography quotes a public appeal they made in 1778 on page 208-209. The author states the purpose was as an appeal to women to bolster her case, and in it Chevalier uses third person through much of it
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Some readers would be confused to see the same person referred to by two different pronouns (they might not even realize the same person was being referred to at first), and other readers would be confused and/or offended to see a transgender person being misgendered."
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her cousins call her "chère cousine", O'Gorman calls her "ma chère soeur" and her mother calls her "ma chère fille". There is honestly so much evidence that d’Eon, her friends, family and many others all used feminine language for her in both French and English.
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gender identity. Other users likewise suggested that given Chevaliere d'Eon's notability coming from their having lived as both a male and female, that it may confuse the reader to use feminine pronouns throughout. The Retroactivity section of GENDERID states
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in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." and there is no justification I can see to overrule this here when the evidence is clear. There are cases where the evidence is unclear such as
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The issue here is translation. While I don’t speak French I do know some basics. In French son/sa is gendered in a different way how his/her is gendered in English. In this letter the choice to use "her" is a choice made by the
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I don't really see the need to move away from the current standard, there is no benefit to adding pronoun's where they would barely provide brevity and increase confusion. This was discussed in RfC too. See the header.
1316:(certainly in the sense that most readers will perceive the issue). If their biological sex-characteristics is relevcant enough to mention in the lede at all, wouldn't it be better to be less ambiguous in the wording?
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After returning to England later in life, d'Éon successfully petitioned the English courts to be legally recognized as a woman, which is seen as one of the earliest instances of legal recognition of a gender
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I think the issue you bring up is accurate. Though the pronouns have been changed in accordance with policy, also mentioned in the MOS is that it is still the duty of editors to not confuse the reader.
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I have made an attempt at moving the page and doing the cleanup. I would greatly appreciate if someone took a second look to make sure I did it right since this is my first attempt at moving a page.
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The attempt to modernise, while understandable is serves only to editorialise what is a balanced historically written article. The discussion of d'Éon's life here is comprehensive and well sourced.
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2. There is no definitive section surrounding d'Eon's gender expression and biological sex, and perhaps for d'Eon it is warranted given the nuances of when and how and what they preferred to wear.
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I also agree with using she/her pronouns for d'Eon. She used She/her pronouns for herself, and it is just basic respect to use the correct pronouns for someone, even if that someone is long dead.
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I've removed this statement, I'm afraid. I'd love it to be true, but you can't use a source as vague as the one you provided to source the extremely specific statement in the article.
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This clearly shows that it is our job as editors to prevent such confusion, but only within the framework of referring to them appropriately by their proper pronouns.
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Again, not all women use she/her pronouns, and if we are going to apply 21st-century gender conceptions in this article then that has to be taken into consideration.
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3. There is perhaps enough research and articles done which cover d'Eon as a figure in media that the section on their legacy and media depictions could be expanded.
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If someone could please provide a reliable source that D'Eon preferred feminine pronouns, or that D'Eon was referred to using feminine pronouns by contemporaries
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controversy which prompted those policies. During the 2014 RfC a much more impactful debate was occurring across Knowledge, with the gamergate sanctions
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applying the MOS means that we should refer to her as female, her gender identity at the time of her death (regardless of her anatomical gender).
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Given all of the above, as well as several discussions which lead to this outcome but have not enacted it yet, I am making this change.
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gender self ID clear. Given that, the use of female pronouns is the only way for this article to be in keeping with the MOS:GENDERID.
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1. Several users suggested using male pronouns for d'Eon prior to her transition, then use female. This is expressly forbidden as per
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The time for changing her pronouns to she/her, which she used (in both French and English) from 1777 to her death, is long overdue.
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Here is a letter from her (d'Eon's) brother-in-law, using female pronouns for her in 1778, in a letter to Benjamin Franklin.
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about vandalism-- As such, I've also popped a on their edit about there being "little evidence to support" the story.
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I think this change is long overdue, but since I expect it to be met with controversy I am front-loading my argument.
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There are a lot of examples of d'Eon's contemporaries using she/her pronouns for her. Including her brother in law:
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dressed in gowns and ruffles, combined the feminine dress with the roughneck attitude and manner of speech of a "
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There is no consensus as to whether to support or oppose strict application of the MOS rule on gender identity
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Emphasis mine. The arguments presented at the time in favor of not applying the MOS rule are as follows:
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honour, and to avenge his frustrations by crushing one whose dearest wish is to see the triumph of
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There is what appears to be consensus that this is an edge case, exceptional in multiple respects.
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Overall my thoughts on improving the page to better help on this is found in these three points:
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Since there is no consensus to override the MOS, and the MOS does not refer to edge cases,
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If no one else takes it up I'll probably make it my pet project for the rest of the year.
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There's much discussion and an RfC on this page where the final sentence of the close is "
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https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-30-02-0502#BNFN-01-30-02-0502-fn-0003
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reflect the pronouns used by the subject rather than engage in speculative neutrality.
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She also used she/her pronouns for herself when writing in third person:
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This doesn't seem to be sourced or mentioned in the body of the article.
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Do you have a source that shows the person preferred "she/her" pronouns?
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presenting publicly as a man to a woman is missing from the article.
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Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
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officially designated a woman by both the French and English courts
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female. By that definition, her pronouns in English are she/her.
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https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-30-02-0502
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The current article does not use pronouns, and that is good.
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The current article does not use pronouns, and that is good
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Not to start the pronoun wars again but you did ask.
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article is perhaps not matching to the order itself.
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This article has been checked against the following
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2018:C-Class WikiProject LGBT studies - person articles
1817:The issue is not so much dated terminology, but
1692:In light of the texts brought forward by myself
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1084:James Hyett
932:Structure:
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161:free images
44:not a forum
1927:Categories
1162:Jezebel's
1099:(Redacted)
756:discussion
1653:In French
1601:sisters."
1443:RaphaelQS
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1276:grenadier
820:Biography
368:Biography
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101:if needed
84:Be polite
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1280:Mathglot
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893:criteria
540:Military
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199:Archives
69:get help
42:This is
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1064:history
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155:scholar
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