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886:) and older ecclesiastical organizations such as the Metropolitanate of Gothia and Kapha appear to be an appeal to tradition rather than historical fact, and are unsupported by independent sources. There is also no independent source for the claim that it has 27,000 members. I will do a light edit now to tag unsupported assertions and improve the organization, but if sources are not forthcoming, we should remove the content referring to the pre-20th century entities from this article, and leave only references saying that this Swedish church "claims a historic connection" to them. --
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reestablished (for instance, the
Patriarchate of Moscow were abolished in 1721 but reestablished in 1917). The Archdiocese as ecclesiastical and canonical structure may be vacant as bishop seat, but reestablished. The question then is not one of The Archdiocese of the Goths/Metropolitanate of Gothia, but whether True Orthodoxy is canonically legitimate. Notable isn't an issue, but legality according the Church law--
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from
Scandinavia is still debated, but most scholar seem to reject this notion nowadays. Ermaneric was of course king of the Greutungi, not the invented Hreidgoths. Athanaric was never king, but iudex, i.e. judge and not of the Visigoths, which did not exist at the time, but of the Tervingi. Neither Greutungi nor Tervingi had "clergy, monks and nuns and countless believers" at the time of Athanaric.
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organisation (established in 1994 and registered by the
Swedish government in 2008) using an old name. That is no good. I would expect English language Google hits for this if it is notable but I did search on the two phrases suggested. The results were not indicative of notability. I think AfD is the next step. --
693:
It may be that I have got it wrong but I am still struggling with the lack of references that refer to this subject under the names given. Anyway, I have already started an AfD on this. I think the best thing you can do is make your case there. I have added it to the list of
Christianity related AfDs
618:
The archdiocese doesn't exist in
English-speaking countries, and obviously no information in English on internet either. If one googles "Gotiska ärkestiftet" (Swedish) or "готфский архиепархий" one get some hits. That diocese is an registered religious body with the Swedish state, organization number
662:
It's True
Orthodox Church, not official Orthodoxy. Obviously direct organisational tradition were cut off regarding the Archdiocese at some point in the 19th century, but if the apostolic succession exist (in the Russian Orthodox Church that is) then every diocese or ecclesiastical structure may be
761:
What is the correct article title? "Archdiocese of the Goths" is not a phrase Google Books or Google
Scholar recognise. What is the name that other sources use when writing about this subject? We need to get the article renamed. If nothing else it will help people trying to research the subject to
756:
As the nominator for deletion I was a bit surprised to see this closed as a keep given the merging consensus for userification. That said, the AfD has helped establish that there may be a subject buried in here, but we stuill need to work out what it is. Here are the issues I think we need to sort
571:
The historical information in particular is obviously false, i.e. invented or the result of ignorance. To mention some of the nonsense: Hreidgothaland is not a historical name linked to any historical group of Goths. Instead, it is take from medieval Norse poetry. Whether the historical Goths came
825:
Archdiocese of the Goths is unquestionably the name of a certain modern entity which claims to be the successor of an entity which last functioned in 1786. I don't think there's any problem with the name "Archdiocese of the Goths" for the modern entity, but it is not the usual name for the older
644:
instead. That is a much smaller organisation and things it recognises as an
Archdiocese are not necessarily notable. 27,000 members would seem to make it borderline. If this one really did have an unbroken history going back to 1283 it would be notable. However it seems that this is just a new
976:
There is not much to "edit", as the entire article is a hoax. Not a "wiki-hoax", as it does exist online, Knowledge is just one of several media they used. This seems to be a bunch of guys in Sweden who in 2011 decided they wanted to revive the "Archdiocese of the Goths", so they created a
771:
If we go for the later then I think we want to focus on the historical organisation and have a section called something like "Successor churches" or "Successor organisations" (if continuity is generally accepted as real) or "Modern churches claiming continuity" (if it not)
567:
This article is practically complete nonsense. It is packed full with fantasy information that stands in complete contradiction to mainstream scholarship. This article should be moved to
Stupedia, where is it much better placed and it should be deleted from Knowledge.
913:
The claim of 'apostolicity' through St. Andrew. This same claim is made by churches in the
Ukraine, Romania, Russia, England, Ireland, and Scotland. There is no real evidence for those claims, let alone the claims this article makes for St. Andrew and
860:
have some good material -- certainly better than anything in this article. I don't think they could benefit from anything in this article, so I would not suggest a merger, just a removal of the redundant and irrelevant material in this article.
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There's really no lack of references, and many sources - mostly older books - are quoted. But issues such as these are not always 'google'-friendly, especially not in the English tongue. It's primary sources that are most
993:
Their "Bishop Teodorik" is about 20 years old, their "Archbishop Ambrosius" a couple of years older. This is presumably something that grew out of the neopagan movement, an exact parallel would be the "Celtic Church in
792:? That is a commendably well written article that anybody can read and understand without getting confused but which has some bug blank sections. Maybe this article's content, if refactored correctly, would fit there?
677:
There's a Diocese of Goths within official Orthodoxy of Ukraine, with a Metropolit Damian II. Maybe the article should only reflect the historical Archdiocese, not the different organisations claiming to represent it
737:
This whole article is a huge apologetic for whatever religious sect they're promoting. Entirely one-sided and revisionist. Needs to either be deleted or extensively re-written. I vote for deletion. --
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the content on the medieval diocese of the Patriarchate of Constantinople is in principle valid, and could remain under this title, but it has severe issues of tone (
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I'm fairly well-read in the history of Christianity both ecclesiastically and in its relationship to secular history (as you can tell from my edits), and the entire
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I sense something fishy here. The title gets no non-Knowledge Google hits. Is it correctly translated? Is it a real Archdiocese? What's the deal here? --
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so we should get some knowledgeable people look at it. If your arguments are sound then they will agree with you and the article will be kept. --
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currently a diocese, but apparently it was one until the 1770s, so if this is verified, fair enough, this is about a historical diocese)
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997:. It may be interesting for the researcher in contemporary neopaganism, but for the purposes of Knowledge it's just a hoax.
718:) 21:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC) Edited and/or replaced sources for note 4, 7, 15 because of broken links or poor quality.--
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This might mean removing all mention of the modern organisations, or it might me an rewriting it on a more solid footing.
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I tried to fix it for now. I will never understand how people can throw their weight around in AfD debates and then
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Many things in this article are inconsistent with accepted history and contradict other articles, such as the
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The nonsense in this article just goes on and on and on. Again, if this is not a case for deletion, what is?
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the material on the modern and the historical entities. This article can cover the modern entity. I would
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want to use this article's text as a basis for the historical entity(es) -- too POV and poorly sourced.
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finally, the Swedish outfit of 1994/2008/2011, this is just goofy, either delete it, or merge it into
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
128:. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
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Ah, so this isn't the Orthodox Church as we normally understand it then? This seems to be the
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The official Russian Orthodox Church successor last functioned apparently in 1786.
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The term "Archdiocese of the Goths" appears to refer to a Swedish branch of the
882:. Beyond that, the connections to the Goth people (presumably referring to the
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935:. The claims in this article are from the POV of a fringe group. Strike that,
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section of this article reeks of POV revisionism and conspiracy. For example:
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Remove a little obvious verbiage and digression that is just confusing.
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successor, although I am not against the later being mentioned briefly.
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I am not going to be much use in doing this. All I am going to do is:
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252004-1664. The Archdiocese is a part of the True orthodox church (
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find sources if they know what the thing is actually called.
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successor then I think that has to have priority over the
132:, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
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for a year to help fix the problem they helped create. --
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if the association is factual, or just lose this part (
925:"Christianity besides Roman-Papal faith was a paganism"
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Agreed about removing "rambling, synthesis, and POV".
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375:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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988:page, plus they put up some weird youtube videos
826:entity, and they should not be treated together.
1004:the content on early Gothic Christianity is a
1012:(if the claims turn out to be correct. It is
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41:on 6 November 2011. The result of
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1000:There are three issues here:
971:17:53, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
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901:"Old Norse Orthodoxy" section
896:17:25, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
871:02:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
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728:09:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
494:and see a list of open tasks.
383:and see a list of open tasks.
306:This article is supported by
264:Knowledge:WikiProject Ukraine
258:and see a list of open tasks.
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18:Talk:Archdiocese of the Goths
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781:Russian True Orthodox Church
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632:09:50, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
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500:Knowledge:WikiProject Greece
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621:http://www.katakomb.ru/).--
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69:Start-class
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134:discussion
982:wordpress
443:Byzantine
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994:Germany"
986:facebook
963:Macrakis
888:Macrakis
863:Macrakis
678:today.--
579:unsigned
563:Problems
39:deletion
1032:WP:NOTE
1021:WP:NPOV
955:Be bold
914:Sweden.
524:on the
413:on the
288:on the
261:Ukraine
252:Ukraine
208:Ukraine
183:on the
984:and a
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497:Greece
488:Greece
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757:out:
1062:(𒁳)
1044:(𒁳)
967:talk
961:. --
945:talk
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