418:. Even though people may have felt they personally liked the article the way it was, Wiki is not the place to get it published. There is a lot of interest in local history and these days self-publishing is not expensive and is easy to do. There are also a number of publishers who specialise in local history. The original article would not have trouble getting published! If people feel that editors should be allowed to create such articles on Wiki then they need to work to get the policy changed. My own view is that the current policy is the right one. Wiki should reflect the sum of human knowledge, and it should do that in a trustworthy and reliable manner. The knowledge should be attributable to a reliable source. Without that attribution we can be accused of making it up. As well written as this essay was, it didn't belong on Wiki under the current guidelines because of lack of appropriate attribution. It weakens the reputation of Wiki when we have such articles. I don't think experts in a field should be driven away from Wiki, especially when they also write with ease; I think they should be encouraged to stay, and also encouraged to do the extra bit of work in citing their sources. And where they don't have the sources they should do the difficult thing and keep their personal views out of the article. A talent like Giano's should be encouraged, but it should also be pointed out where that talent is banging hard aginst policy. I don't think I've made any friends here with my views, but I hope that people can see that I have no ill intent, and that we are just not in agreement on this issue. Regards to all.
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appears only once should be referenced - regardless of where it appears in the article. The info in the lead section does not appear to be repeated - it appears to be there for colour and general background. It puts forward the case that a property owner would return from a visit to a cosmopolitan city and spread the latest architectural fashion to the individual's provincial town. That in itself is an explanation for the architectural style of a number of houses throughout the world - and as a general trend I am aware of it, even though architecture is not my subject. I am also aware of other explanations of how architectural styles develop within a region - such as local tradition and building materials (an explanation not given in the lead section). I am not convinced of the reasons for singling out this particular explanation over others. I would be happier if the statement was then backed up by an architectural example in
Aylesbury. Which merchant saw which house in which city and used it as the influence to design or alter which building? Your knowledge of architecture is profound Giano, and I have read in other articles where you have been much more precise with such information. I'd be happier if you gave the example, and gave the source from where the evidence can be found (I have checked the refs in the article - some of which I added - but none of the online refs have that evidence. I assume the information is in the Pevsner book. I have now ordered that). I'll do no more on this article until I have read the Pevsner.
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What is less well known is the local almost vernacular architecture in the market towns, often inspired by the work of the great master architects or the general architectural style popular at the time. England had a middle class long before many other
European countries, these bourgeois merchants would often return from a visit to one of the cities, or having seen a glimpse of one of the great country houses then require a replica of what they had seen. A local architect would then be employed to recreate it, within limited financial restraints. Sometimes the patron would merely draw an image of what he required and a builder would then interpret the requirements to the best of his often limited ability.
560:, and specifically "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed." Knowledge needs to be reliable. People should be able to trust what is said. I can't rely on the information in the section above being relevant to Aylesbury purely on the assertion of a fellow editor, I need more convincing. If you know the sources which will back up what is being said, then please put them in the article.
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revert but it is all rather sad because the page is now meaningless and may as well be deleted as non-notable, for truly there is not one building mentioned that can realistically be called notable or worthy of inclusion in an architectural text-book. In fact I suspect this is the most comprehensive and detailed account of the architecture of
Aylesbury of all eras one will find anywhere, and now it is a meaningless list.
290:, though I am unclear on how it is appropriate for the intro on the architecture of this particular town - nor am I sure where the ideas are from. Are the ideas those of the article's creators, or do they reflect the sum of human knowledge that Knowledge seeks to record? If the former, they need to be removed. If the later, they need to be sourced, and then placed in the appropriate article - clearly not this one!
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437:"Original research" is a red herring in this case. There's nothing out of the common mainstream in the article. In reducing the text to a pedestrian manner more to one editor's liking, information has been lost, and Knowledge has been slightly eroded as a result. This is not wholesome and constructive editing: it seems self-indulgent and thoughtless, not an example of
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architects, for the privilege of designing a town hall or church. This is exactly what happened in
Aylesbury. John Vanbrugh judged two sets of plans for the County Hall (now Aylesbury Crown Court). Thus for ever Vanbrugh's name was remembered in association with the building, the local architect almost forgotten, and civic pride maintained.
141:'A local architect would then be employed to recreate it, within limited financial restraints. Sometimes the patron would merely draw an image of what he required and a builder would then interpret the requirements to the best of his often limited ability.' Fantastic summary. Have you seen what the Bastard Brothers did at
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since it came out, but I remember it seeming very fresh and new in this field, which is that of the dispersion of design ideas: to mention that they came from fancy architects in London, imitated at second hand by local builders yada yada, is a commonplace we're all familiar with. I'm a bit mystified
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This recreation and interpretation of a certain style was not confined to private houses, but to civic architecture too: an illustrious architect added to civic pride; and when an architect was too expensive for the civic coffers, for a fraction of the price he would judge a competition between local
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after the disastrous fire in the 1730s? Here were local architect/builders with great ability. They deserve an article - I remember reading they were also longcase clockmakers too. I love the idea of some stuffy vicar telling his wife 'I'm just going to wind the
Bastard clock, my dear'. Anyway, I
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All this page was attempting to do was place some pleasing but rather mundane typical
English architecture within an historical perspective and explain how it came to be and why. None of the removed information was in the least controversial, in need of a cite or ever likely to be disputed. I won't
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I am aware that for stylistic reasons a fact which appears in the lead and is then repeated and expanded later in the article need not be referenced twice - it can be referenced initially in the lead, or later in the section where it is developed in more depth. However, a piece of information which
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As the person who contributed all the images for this article I certainly do not support all the changes that have been made, or the comments that have been made on this page and in hidden sections of the article itself. Unfortunately I handed in my user-status of this website years ago, and Giano
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It is this provincial, often unappreciated and unnoticed architecture, by nationally unknown architects still being produced today which continues to give many
English market towns their unique atmosphere and character, the architecture of Aylesbury demonstrates this admirably from the 11th century
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I now have the
Pevsner book. There are comments on Palladianism filtering down into some of the country houses in Buckinghamshire. There are sections on local tradition and building materials, and on Buckinghamshire being close enough to London for "those connected to the Court ... to settle there
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What's the best text on
Georgian vernacular architecture? I mean the one SilkTork is using. We can get the quotes we need from that. The rest simply parallels Colvin's preface, which I'd recommend to anyone who's never read anything about the social history of English building, as a good beginning
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The section lacks attribution, yet is making a speculative and debatable statement about provincial architectural history and how it applies in particular to
Aylesbury. The section is not necessary for an understanding of the architecture of Aylesbury - indeed such a section would be better off as
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I did say "often" limited not "always" for every provincial building of the exceptional Bastard's ability I can show you a hundrd showing limited ability. Of course you can write a page on the Bastards - start off with googling themm and Blandford, record your reference sites at the bottom of the
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architecture too: an illustrious architect added to civic pride; and when an architect was too expensive for the civic coffers, for a fraction of the price he would judge a competition between local architects, for the privilege of designing a town hall or church. This is exactly what happened in
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The architecture contained in many of the country's great cities is well recorded and documented, as is that of the numerous great country houses. Frequently the work is by one of England's more notable architects - Christopher Wren, John Vanbrugh, Robert Adam, William Kent or even Quinlan Terry.
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I'm not sure I support the changes being made to this article. The article seems to be about 20% smaller than it was previously and while the commenter in the next section perhaps is being a bit unkind, he or she has a point. I think the article flowed better and was more informative before the
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I understand your frustration - you "know" it therefore you don't quite understand why you have to prove it to others. I've experienced the same bafflement when writing up articles on topics that I know very well. Because I know it, I feel it doesn't need explaining. Unfortunately it does need
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What happened here? I was just about to show a friend an example of how wikipedia articles can reach the same standards in writing as does, say, the Britannica. For said purpose I tend to use this article as one of my favourite examples, a true gem, drawing a surprising amount of erudition and
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If you got a friendly admin to delete/move/merge from the old page location to the new page location then all of francs2000's edits should be fully recognised in the page history. To be honest that's what you should have done to start with - move the page across rather than copy and paste. --
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Most of it is Giano's work, so I think he is entitled to decide how to move from user space to article space (usually, understandably, he does not want people to see the birth pangs of his articles). In this case, unusually, here was a degree of outside help, so it makes sense to merge the
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First of all, the lead does not have to be referenced (even if this was a featured article which it is not) Secondly the page has a list of references at the bottom which bear out all that is written. Thirdly, it not necesary to reference at all anything wich is accepted fact. That you are
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would often return from a visit to one of the cities, or having seen a glimpse of one of the great country houses then require a replica of what they had seen. A local architect would then be employed to recreate it, within limited financial restraints. Sometimes the
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I am going through and cleaning up the article. There are a number of personal reflections which I am uncertain have been simply copied uncredited from sources or interjected by the primary authors. The article is currently problematic and I have tagged it as such.
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is otherwise indisposed at the moment and cannot therefore defend his edits. I would like to see discussion before any further changes whatsoever are made to the article, and I believe a lot of the original content can and should be restored as was. --
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page and then just write an essay in your own words - give ma call if you want some further help or advice. Thanks for the complements - this is another page I have never got arownd to finishing - so if you want to practice have a go here.
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It is clear from the third paragraph that the intention of the essay is to use Aylesbury as an example of the creator's theory (either the Wiki editor or the uncredited author) on the development of provincial English architecture.
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references is ultimately disruptive behavior. You may not feel that there are enough citations, but that's not the same thing as saying that there are not enough citations: work by consensus and community, not private assessment.
672:. However, I'm in the process of fixing your miserable gifs. About the layout- It is usual to put pics with buildings facing left to the right, and right to the left. There are several examples here which do the opposite.
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If you haven't fixed'em by the time that I get back with your shiny new JPEGS, I'm gunna fiddle with them! Just warning you so that you can prepare yourself for any trauma it might cause. ;-) Seeya!
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Hmmmm. Well, what about going back and startig again after some discussion. I'm sure no-one wants to deprive wikipedia of a rare incident of originality (of presentation, not content) and good writing.
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and start supplying references to the statements, to bolster the text from dismantling in the future. Tiresome work for the grown-ups. In the meantime, the introductory material of Howard Colvin,
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don't have the knowledge to write such an article - any takers? By the way, I should have said - this is a splendid article - informative and well-illustrated. Congratulations to all involved.
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Don't be malicious. The tag is unwarranted, and lead paragraphs are always summary style. Please read up on leads, summary style, and the FAC requirements. Additionally,
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information out of a fairly obscure topic, beatifully written, well illustrated and logically structured. But lo and behold, it's been replaced with something rather drab.
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were usually inspired at second hand by the work of the great master architects or the general architectural style popular at the time. England had a
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449:(3rd. ed. 1995) would make a good introduction to the subject here for anyone who has never read anything about English architecture, and for whom
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would merely draw an image of what he required and a builder would then interpret the requirements to the best of his ability.
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and develop the estates they held". I'll dig a bit deeper and then apply some material from the book into the article.
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This is speculation upon the general trend in architecture in England. This might be appropriate for a general article
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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explaining, and it does need citing to reliable sources. It's tiresome stuff for sure. But take a look at
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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981:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
706:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
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to the 21st century. 1000 years of provincial architecture in one town little known outside of Britain.
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in addition to taking most of the photographs especially for this page, gave a lot of advice and help.
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I would like to record that this article was originally written in user space with much help from
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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part of an article on the history of architecture - so I have moved it here for consideration.
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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This percolation of architectural style was not confined to private houses, but to
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recent changes you made, SilkTork. I also agree with Geogre about the lead. ++
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challenging, does not alter the fact it is generally accepted fact.
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http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/bcc/museum/ea_buckinghamshire_photos.page
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Pardon my ignorance, but I know little about Aylesbury except the
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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because you, as a single reader, think there should be
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1029:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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55:, a project which is currently considered to be
447:A Biographical Dictionary of British Architects
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893:This message was posted before February 2018.
121:histories, as I see has been done already. --
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288:Architectural trends in English small towns
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882:to let others know (documentation at
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1041:source check
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919:source check
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508:Aylesbury."
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486:middle class
482:market towns
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414:Please read
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91:
56:
886:Sourcecheck
193:Problematic
1078:Report bug
956:Report bug
478:vernacular
345:(formerly
1061:this tool
1054:this tool
939:this tool
932:this tool
783:dead link
769:dead link
664:Hi Giano!
493:merchants
490:bourgeois
399:athinaios
364:athinaios
1067:Cheers.—
945:Cheers.—
678:Amandajm
643:SilkTork
609:SilkTork
565:SilkTork
517:SilkTork
423:SilkTork
299:SilkTork
203:SilkTork
58:inactive
32:inactive
979:my edit
872:checked
787:tag to
773:tag to
704:my edit
219:tagging
880:failed
779:Added
765:Added
539:Wetman
498:patron
455:Wetman
228:Geogre
126:(Talk)
581:Giano
505:civic
469:Intro
382:Giano
182:Giano
165:Giano
123:ALoan
98:Giano
876:true
682:talk
585:talk
543:talk
459:talk
403:talk
386:talk
368:talk
339:talk
232:talk
223:more
1035:RfC
1005:to
913:RfC
890:).
878:or
857:to
847:to
837:to
827:to
817:to
807:to
797:to
759:to
749:to
739:to
729:to
718:to
451:any
316:Lar
1048:.
1043:}}
1039:{{
926:.
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917:{{
888:}}
884:{{
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781:{{
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767:{{
684:)
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401:(
384:(
366:(
337:(
324:c
322:/
320:t
303:*
230:(
207:*
61:.
34:)
30:(
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