Talk:Australia men's national soccer team/Archive 4

419:

recent campaigns), maybe that should be a separate page?). Surely the 'player drain' section doesn't need to list all the players in the main article (again I suggest a separate page). All the records in the tables can probably be summarized and some of the details (which I agree really need to be here as they are very interesting) moved to separate pages. IMO This page should really be just a summary of what the Socceroos are, an overview of their history, and some of their important records and other stats - more detailed info should be broken off into other pages. If this page keeps getting updated with heaps of detail about their 2010 WC Campaign and their 2011 Asian Cup campaign it's just going to get more and more messy.

2604:, I appreciate your passion about this article and your strong feelings on the topic. The article is not about the men's team. It is about the Austraia's national association football team. There is no article on the men's team. The women's article has been forked off, but in forking off from the main article about the national team, UNDUE weight has been given to the men. Until we can resolve the issue of how to balance two national teams in this article, the tag should stay. What sort of solutions do you have? Would a 75% men's national team balance work for you? Both teams represented in the lead and an acknowledgement that Australia has two senior teams be a good starting point for resolving the 2766:

two national teams existing, and this article needing to reflect that in the text. I invite you to provide sources that support your point of view that the men's team is the ONLY national team. I would ask you to provide sources from FIFA, AOC, ASC, FFA, ABC (Australia), and the Sydney Morning Herald that suggest the Australian women's team is a false equivalent, and not co-equal to the men's team in terms of representing Australia at the highest level. Once you've done this, I think we will have a good starting point to determine what the percentages should be given over to discussing which Australia's national association football teams. --

2102:(as Jmorrison has pointed out) it is rarely televised, marginalised by football clubs, sponsors and the media. Manchester United, one of the world's best known clubs, doesn't have a women's team! To say women's football is anywhere near equal in terms of status, profile, finance or support is patently untrue and unsupported by any facts. This is evidently the case with Australian football too. There are some other countries (and several other sports) where this isn't the case, of course, and these can be judged accordingly. 2311:". I suspect that in most cases this shrill, boring voice emanates from the bedrooms of their respective mothers' houses. They need to realise that this is an encyclopedia, not a football fanblog. Stop flooding the encyclopedia with bios of fourth-rate no-marks from your home team and/or country. Stop trying to justify it by making up your own ludicrous notability criteria. Instead of arrogance and aggression, be receptive to opinions from better, more widely-experienced editors, from outside your stuffy gentlemens' club. 3419:

here, we fix it here! Deal with the discussion here. Your post is a copout. You obviously don't have an answer to my questions, and just want me to go away. That strengthens my will. I have been politely awaiting constructive repsonses, have got none, and now get a "Go away" from you. LOL. If no-one can come up with a reason for the ungrammatical name apart from "everyone else does it that way" (Can you see how bad that reason is?), I will change it. No rational answer means consensus is clearly with me.

1953:

have an NPOV argument to stand on, make it and make it without referring to gender. If you cannot make an arguement as to why one team should be gender neutral and one team should be genderized in a sport segregated by gender, it proves that you are a gender warrior who believes the men's game is superior to the women's game. Can you do it? Please. Do it. Make an argument that does not involve gender for your position. I can make an argument for my case. Can you do the same? Didn't think so.--

850:, these article should all use "soccer" instead of "association football". As to the issue of inserting "men's" into the titles, I'm torn. One could easily argue that the men's teams are the primary topics (e.g. when someone says "the Australian soccer team", they are referring to the men's team at least nine times out of ten), yet on the other hand, it would be a step forward in combatting Knowledge's systematic bias. I would also note that, looking at 31: 2866:

taking every single avenue you can to push your POV. If you want to reject my points, including the fact that I'm not even particularly opposed to the proposed move, that's your prerogative; but don't deliberately misrepresent them just because they don't fit your view. And don't deliberately make up some of the clearest bullshit I've ever seen, by trying to claim that I said something that is categorically NOT what I said.

2575:

hatnote at the very top telling you about the women's team. The article is about the men's team, and the women's article is about the women's team; should I go and spam that tag in there? The naming of the article is absolutely irrelevant to those tags, and you know it. Grow up. And, as I've said already, I'm not even particularly opposed to your proposed move; just the pathetic way you're going about things.

1534: 770:– Australia has two senior level association football/soccer/football teams. One team is a men's team. The other team is a women's team. The lack of a clear gender identifier makes it difficult for readers to instantly know the topic of the article, because which of the two national teams the article is about is not specified in the article name. This would make it more clear. 3021:. Yes, I would agree that it is grammatically incorrect. Though I think we should conclude the discussion on gender equality above before we start this one. I agree this question should be asked, as it is a valid one, but implementing it would be a mammoth task, so maybe we should hold it for now. As soon as the discussion above finished we should inquire about this one on 2644:, which appears to be roughly the same time the original men's article was started; although it is very hard to find the exact information, as the history is obscured by a lot of moves; the fork argument just isn't backed up by the facts. As for where to take the dispute, several people have already told you; take it to a global location, or, at the very least, 2441:

only stumbled upon it sometime yesterday afternoon, the vast majority of other neutral participants are in favour of the move. Expressions like "no-brainer" have been bandied about. We've heard the WP:FOOTBALL party line, and had it amplified, in stereo. Let's see what other editors have to say and try for a genuine consensus.

3723:, would you stop accusing other editors of acting in bad faith. As has been mentioned umpteen times in the last few days, editors are not acting in bad faith simply because they disagree with you, and if you continue to make such horrible accusations, I (or another editor) will have no choice but to report you to an admin. – 3003:

that point in my first post. Why did you guys ignore it? Is it because you don't like my views on the name of the game? And I don't give a damn what other articles are called. I'm discussing the name of this one. Why are national team articles named with a noun? It's ungrammatical. (I think I made that point earlier too.)

2273:

discussion, NOT a discussion on a single article. Not only that, but I brought up a 100% relevant move request, and that one wasn't disruptive, unlike this one; for someone claiming "obfuscation at its finest", you've done a damn fine job in avoiding any response to something that makes you look even more like a troll...

2258:" wasn't my contribution. Though I did think it was hilarious. Meanwhile, I'm getting a bit sick of coping with the tunnel vision and POV pushing of soccer fans. Cleaned all their crap off my Talk page today (There were five fucking threads! All started by obsessed soccer nuts.), and might give up here for a bit too. 2904:. Australia has two teams. Now that we've established I have read the article title (neutral to gender) and the article text (exclusive to men), can we move on to how to fix this as opposed to repeatedly questioning my ability to read and my reading comprehension skills? How do you propose to resolve to fix 3404:, if you truly wish to make a good faith edit then I suggest you move the discussion to a wider community (as with the men's/women discussion). Why just change one article name out of 1000's? It seems in poor taste to do so, especially with the article subject in mind and your apparent dislike for it.-- 3735:

It doesn't matter whether it is Australia or England - both are still noun adjuncts, so it cannot be incorrect. I specifically modelled this answer to England, but on the talk page of the article in question I fitted it to Australia, and also pointed out that your claim is incorrect - examples of the

3580:

guideline. The title actually has two noun adjuncts (the second one is "association football", which is also not an adjective - the standalone phrase "football team" in itself has two nouns, with "football" being the noun adjunct). I noticed above that there were claims that this form is never used -

3448:

I see no logical reason for your request. If THIS article is incorrectly titled, then THIS article should be corrected. NOW. And please stop acting as if your motives are pure. You may believe they are, but your obsessive year on year fight against the name agreed by consensus says otherwise. YOU are

2639:

offer a neutral point of view; whether it "disregards" the women's team is not relevant. The "undue weight" tag is simply pointy advocacy by yourself, and is precisely why so many people - including myself - are pissed off by you. The women's article wasn't "forked off", it was split out due to being

2550:

here like you did until the discussion is concluded. There is an ongoing discussion about the article giving undue weight to the men's team. Australia has two national teams. The teams are separated by gender. Until such a time that the neutrality can be resolved where undue weight is not given to

2239:

Well, this isn't a discussion thread about the original proposal and, secondly, you're on weak ground to accuse people of "attack posts", considering you've called WikProject Football a "circle jerk" and numerous other people rude, incompetent, chauvinist and pathetic. Why would anyone want to engage

2194:

members, like myself, are being deliberately obstructive and are sexist, reflect on the fact that Australia's national cricket team and rugby union team articles, both of which have a similar gender split in notability when compared to football, lack the gender split in the male article name. Indeed,

1967:

WP:NPOV requires articles to be represented fairly, proportionately and without bias. In many cases, your argument would violate those principles because it would give disproportionate status and attention to the teams (too little for one and too much for the other). I would make the same argument if

1952:

Wrong. I seek PRECISION in naming the articles. Two national teams exist. They are separated based on gender. Precision in naming, accuracy and verifiability should be striven for. You are seeking to enshrine in names that a policy that ensures no "false equivalence" between men and women. If you

418:

It seems to me that this article is getting very long and has a lot of very detailed information about the last 5 years in the Socceroos history, but that is only a short part of their history. I think the history section needs to be shortened (If you want all the detail about Germany 2006 (and other

356:

We list the dates of birth. They don't change. But ages can be wrong by tomorrow. Or today, if the enthusiast who adds a particular player forgets to come back on his birthday and update his age. Just silly. It guarantees that this article will be wrong from time to time. Anyone with half a brain can

3463:

The grammatical error isn't specific to this article. Why would you only change this specific article when there are tens of thousands with the exact problem? Wouldn't you rather move to change them all rather than just this one? I can not understand your motive to only change this specific article.

3002:

It has nothing to do with nationality. The team representing Australia is always called the Australian team, by everyone, never the Australia team. Which team is currently playing the Poms in the Ashes? The Australia team, or the Australian team? I'm sure you use the name Australian yourself. I made

2703:

national team, which Australia has two. Undue weight is being given to the men´s team by treating the article as defacto about the men. We're got a good starting point. Now that we've agreed on this point, how do you suggest we move forward to resolving this problem of the article being about the

1915:

one. The two teams are equivalent in that they both represent their countries at the national level. Full stop. End of story. This fact is completely verifiable. It is a neutral statement. (Knowledge policy and Knowledge pillar.) It is clear that you are a POV warrior, promoting the men's game

1014:

The soccer/football issue has already been resolved, so there's not much more to discuss. On the gender issue, I would suggest going with Mattinbgn's suggestion to get a topic-wide consensus on the gender issue. IMHO, it would be better to go top-down, rather than bottom-up arguing every step of the

3610:

Are you now going to post my response to the above in that other thread? Geez soccer nuts annoy me. It's pointless having multiple threads on a single matter. But sensible editing skills seem in short supply in that realm. How do you want us to proceed. Copy all posts into both threads? Ridiculous.

3418:

Poor taste? Bullshit!!!!! If this article has the wrong title, we fix it, here. We don't run off to certain rejection by tunnel visioned, conservative soccer fans the world over who cannot deal with any aspect of their game being challenged. You are the perfect example of that. If the name is wrong

3260:

Yes, certainly, but that doesn't answer my question. What FIFA says is fine, when one is just using a single word for the team (or more words if the name of the country is longer). It's what we do for every sport that I can think of, for both Australia and for other countries. The team representing

2105:

On the subject of this being a general initiative, well, evidently it is. The initiators need to be open and honest about this, rather than change policy by stealth. Possibly it is an initiative that will decrease the perception of bias on Knowledge and encourage a wider cross section of society to

2101:

Personally speaking I'm not an activist from WikiProject Football, in fact I was until recently a member of the Gender Bias Task Force (hence being invited to take part here). I'm the only person I know, or my friends and family (male and female) that follows women's football. Mainly the problem is

600:

by their fans at least some of the time, along with at least two others not played professionally. For any one of these to be called football in Knowledge would create confusion. As for your slight against Aussie rules fans, it has to be acknowledged that that sport achieved popular use of the word

2765:

regarding the issue of how the men's team is the only national team that matters in Australia. This could be read as an indication that you weren't willing to engage in participation with the goal of reaching consensus to remove the tag. I have tried to refocus the topic to address major issue of

2726:

I have a suggestion: read what I actually wrote, and you will see that YET AGAIN, I have a suggestion as to what you are consistently trying to push your POV about. Seriously Laura, I'm not opposed to your general move proposal, nor do I necessarily support it; but your refusal to read what people

2189:

is very weak with regards to women's leagues is due to the lack of fully professional leagues out there; almost all discussions that may have changed the guideline have failed, regardless of what they proposed. Let's not forget that NFOOTBALL is very heavily skewed against several nations as well;

1984:

The other national team is not represented fairly or proportionally or without bias in the article about the Australian national association football team. There are two teams. This article only refers to one. If the other national team is represented in the article beyond a hat note, I do not see

1227:

Hello, I just wanted to let everyone know that I'm attempting to clean-up this article. This involves moving much of the content to separate articles (history, records, managers, etc) and adding more content (team image). I will also be re-wording much of the article, editing templates and tables,

1200:

Is this seriously required? I'm sure many other countries have players born there that have chosen to play for other countries. This is not unique to Australia at all. Or how about make it fair and have a list of non-Australian born players that have played for Australia. The list will more then

218:

There seem to be a number of editors of this article obsessed with always being the first with the news about a change in team selection, and slightly modifying the formatting to suit their own preferences. Firslty, it's not really that important to reflect every team change the moment it happens.

3349:

Really? Then it's a very poor attempt to do so. Nobody outside Knowledge talks nor writes that way. Using a word ungrammatically isn't going to help anybody understand anything. Give me a good reason why we can't use correct English? (I'd be careful with use of the word "official" in this context

3245:

The FIFA Regulations Governing International Matches limits the naming of an international match to "an appropriate political and geographical description of the countries or territories of the Members whose teams are involved in the match or competition..." This means, for example, the match the

2440:

But you're only one from outside the circle jerk who is in the no camp. Your initial suggestion to move the article to the team's nickname was ridiculous and – with respect – your contributions have gone rapidly downhill from there. While you're obviously entitled to your opinion, even though you

1680:

The official term used according to the FFA and general supporters of the "Socceroos" is Football... Not Association Football, not Soccer, but Football... The term Socceroos is no different to the Trinidad and Tobago National Team that is nicknamed the Soca Warriors, it has nothing to do with the

1251:

section, though I would need some help. I've added a lot in already, but some could probably be removed if they're not that notable. I don't really know much about the national teams kits and I don't know at all how to make kit patterns, so I would need help. Here are some sources for Australia's

2574:

For fuck's sake Laura, give it a rest. YOU are the one being pointy, by spamming in pointless tags, and by opening up a very disruptive individual move request when you've been told to take this to a central location. There is no weight being given to one gender over the other; there's a fucking

2865:

So you reject the fact that the article is solely about the men's team? You reject a clear fact? Again, if the article was located at "Australia men's national association football team", you wouldn't be whining like this; your issue is with the naming of the article, so focus on that, and stop

2784:

For fuck's sake. You haven't read it; you've read what you wanted to read. And this is precisely why you're getting little support, particularly when you do this to people who may otherwise have been inclined to back you... Claiming that I have said there is only one team, or that only one team

2272:

HiLo, I will speak exactly as I want, and given the pathetic nature of the majority of your posts, you can stop being a kettle calling the pot black. This individual proposal has precisely no merit whatsoever; it needs to be a proper, WikiProject-wide (or perhaps even Knowledge-wide) naming

1473:

Well, I'm not sure what the Knowledge Manual of Style says on such matters. Maybe it would be better to not use the term at all as a section heading. I'd prefer simple groupings of years for listing the history. We shouldn't be drawn into copying the language styles of sports journalists.

1416:

It was primarily that first sentence that concerned me. Your changes are quite an improvement. I have, however, made a change to the format of your revised heading to highlight that it's actually a quote from a reliable source, and not just peacock language from an editor, which would be

1686:

Also, frankly there are very few people who follow the sport in this country that even know what the term "Association Football" refers to, soccer is a by gone anachronism and I wish we'd all just grow up about it. On record: I'm stating my point of view, not opening that debate either

3154:

located at "Australia". So it isn't a bunch of "soccer obsessives" to blame; it's a global practice. And it seems to be the same for the vast majority of other nations. Again, this is something you need to take to a global location, and not just blow a lot of hot air over one article.

422:

Also, the pages with all the Socceroos results (season 2005, 2006...) need to be linked from this page I think - or maybe just one link to a "Socceroos Results" page, which then links to the other seasons. There should also be a page with all their past shirts - would be interesting.

1866:

because it would give a false equivalence between the national teams in countries where the men's team is clearly far more popular. These arguments have failed so instead LauraHale is trying to move countries piecemeal; ie "if Australia is like this, so should New Zealand" and so on.

2190:

are we going to now lodge claims of racism? The major issue here is actually nothing to do with gender bias, and I personally don't care whether the title has "men" in the name or not; it's Laura's improper attempts to force her change across. And for all of those claiming that

2850:. If you have a problem with doing so and it would assist you in more rapidly providing sources about the men's team and the relative weight they should be given in the article, I would consent to swearing at you as a motivational tool for providing the requested material. -- 1033:. I think, with the exception of netball and national teams by gender based events like tennis and golf, women are already gendered. I can do a rename proposal that includes the rest of those articles for men's teams that aren't gendered like their female counterparts. -- 2388:

I'm sure they would, but I don't think that scenario has ever come up. From now on perhaps WP:FOOTBALL could send a single emissary to deliver their verdict at these discussions? Perhaps GiantSnowman, who seems to have anointed himself as the Sepp Blatter of WP:FOOTBALL?

3433:

You are limiting the discussion and purposely so. That is in poor taste. If you want answers to your questions (which are complete legitimate ones at that) then seek a wider discussion. If this is truly a good faith edit, then this one article name will not matter to

1386:." That just reads rather weirdly. I'm not even sure what it's trying to say. Thought by whom? So what? And a few other questions.... It's an odd way to begin a section. What's it really all about? Could we say it better? (I hope so, but I'm not sure what to say.) 3785:

It's not uncommon or clumsy - it's perfectly good English. As I said above, further proof from a wide range of sources is easily forthcoming - you can find the phrase "Australia team" used for a variety of different sports in all these different media outlets:

2330:, who happens to be an Australian female footballer. Who played internationally for Australia as well, but rather than improve the encyclopedia, you just spout some of the most inane crap ever. Care to fuck off, or actually improve the encyclopedia for once? 2954:

national association football team". (And I'm not talking about the name of the sport here.) 2nyte has just made the lead consistent with the title (a reasonable thing to do, if the title made sense) and in doing so has drawn my attention to this. Surely

961:

to "bathers" because that is in common usage in Victoria? Are folks in the jewel of the Hunter going to be forced to use a flat "a" when telling of their home town instead of a broad one simply because it is anathema to those south of the Barassi line?

2034:

It seems clear that some WP:FOOTBALL editors are vehemently, dementedly opposed to women's football. It's obviously quite pitiable but we shouldn't set too much store by it – better that we get opinions from the wider community and leave them behind.

659:

I've assumed the table is correct to 25 Jan, and have +1 to the three players above. This may need to be confirmed. I haven't touched the "captains" list as it says it was lasted updated in September 2010 and I'm not sure of the exact number. --

875:

pending a topic-wide consensus on this issue. I do have some sympathy with the argument made by LT Powes—the current arrangement is blatanly gender-biased language. On the other hand, WP:COMMONNAME would suggest that references to the "Australian

999:

Whether or not the article is called association football team or soccer team, can this particular rename focus on the gender in the article name issue, with the association football/soccer issue being resolved in a separate rename request? --

104:

In the column on the right it says that Australia has appeared in 3 world cups and 1 Asian cup. Shouldn't it be 2 and 1? Or if qualification for a tournament counts as appearing in it then shouldn't it say 3 world cups and 2 Asian cups?

2082:

At least Jmorrison230582 has taken Laura's name off this attack thread now, but my answer to the new title is, so what? No matter what it might or might not lead to, the move is either the right thing to do, or it's not. Please discuss.

934:" claim. I just don't get it. It's the common name of the sport everywhere in Victoria. It's not an insult here. Where and how is it insulting? (This is a genuine question. I am not trying to be provocative. Just trying to understand.) 2634:

is about the men's team, regardless of any mention in the lead about the women's team, or elsewhere. The title may or may not be incorrect, fine; but these tags are certainly irrelevant. The NPOV tag is 100% irrelevant, as the article

2664:

as it stands right now - than these move requests; that would save everyone a lot of bother, and it would also look far better than this constant advocacy. Alternatively, I can look into it, if you find me some good sources on them.

2014:

I have removed the quote. I have spent the better part of a several days working on a lot of men's articles that I take great pride. I take great pride in all my work. And you know what? Despite your doom and gloom suggestions,

2224:

Luke - THAT'S an attack post. Obfuscation at its finest. It discussed anything but the merits of this individual proposal. It's either the right thing to do for the reason of having better titles, or it's not. Please discuss THAT.

957:-I haven't ignored you I am just getting some examples together for you. In the meantime how is your point about the alleged usages in Victoria relevant to Knowledge. Wp is international not provincial. I mean do we have to rename 219:

The logical consequence of current practice is to update the article with substitutions while gamses are on! Secondly, can you all just pause the updates a little and agree on a format that will be used for the next several years?

161:

The comment you are replying to is almost 2 years ago, prior to the 2010 World Cup. At the time 2 was correct as the third appearance had not occurred. I believe the article has correctly reflected the 3 appearances for some time.

241:

The article claims that Mark Viduka (in the captains) that he s still available for selection! This is clearly not true, I do believe Pim has claimed Viduka's international days to be other, so I removed the bold from his name!

2425:

It's a sign of losing an argument when someone resorts to personal insults. This started quite early on from the proposers. Maybe now the conversation has degenerated to new lows, it needs someone to come along and wrap it up.

1733:

WAS the official name of the sport. Why is it not mentioned? But you're right, of course, you're not debating. You ignored almost everything I said in my post, so you didn't debate anything. Soccer fans seem incapable of that.

2325:

Should we treat the utter bullshit that you, HiLo and Laura have spouted at times as being one voice as well? The ludicrous thing about the utter bollocks you just wrote is, just before you wrote that, I wrote the article on

1681:

sport actually being played on the ground. The term "Socceroos" is just a nickname. For the intents and purposes of this article the game being played is Football as recognised by the governing body of the code in Australia.

3625:

I'm sorry, I came here and read a slightly different discussion, so I thought I'd post a slightly different answer here (focussed on Australia, as opposed to the query raised at WP:FOOTY. I'm not sure why that's annoying.

506:

This article is semi-protected, so I can't delete the Swedish away team colours. Someone else take care of that, eh? Humans who have seen an Australian national sport team play in something other than green and gold = 0.

1924:. This is abundantly clear by "false equivalence". There is absolutely NOTHING in the text of this article that supports this statement. It is not verifiable at all, nor relevant. It is an opinion, your opinion. -- 1539: 3095:

as a whole. You don't have to "take on a bunch of soccer obsessives", I will do it myself if you want. It would be a very easy point to discuss. But I would at least like to get others opinions from 'all around the

1173:

why does it say michael zullo plays for everton he does not he plays for utrecht and it says everywhere else he plays for utrecht including his wikipedia page and i cant find anything for him playing at everton.

1819:

points out as calling the game football also point out the gender of the team involved. Can't have your sourcing both ways. AOC claims there is a men's team and a women's team, not a team and a women's team.

1318:

The second logo appears only on replica kits. The actual logo used on player shirts is the Australian coat of arms. As far as I can tell from press photos, the FFA logo doesn't appear on the current shirts.

2176:

Some of the above attacks are absolutely laughable, without a shred of evidence, and are paper-thin at best. I doubt there are very many people who are "vehemently, dementedly opposed to women's football"

1401:

I don't know if you're addressing the section as a whole or the specific line you quoted. Never the less, I re-worded the opening line and regarding the section as a whole a added some info on the 'golden

3364:

It's official in the context of describing the involvement of the team in a match or competition (eg team names on tickets, scoreboards, etc). For most other contexts the team is known as the Socceroos.

3787: 1888:

Each country should be taken on its merits shouldn't it? From what I know, New Zealand doesn't have a particularly successful men's football team, so maybe there would be more merit in the suggestion.

3132:

be encouraged to dictate policy? It would need to be a multi-Wikiproject wide policy where all national Wikiprojects and all sports with national team based competitions would need to be informed. --

3077:

Please explain why we can't just fix the Australian one? I have no desire to take on a bunch of soccer obsessives from all around the world. There is no need when it's an obvious grammar correction.

2198:, which was a resounding failure, and the hockey and basketball article moves that have happened since then appear to be in direct violation of that consensus, with no new consensus formed for them. 1938:

I think it's clear that you are a POV warrior, pushing the POV that there is full equivalence between men's and women's national teams in all countries and all sports, which is clearly not the case.

176:

Yeah. Sorry. I was fooled by a seeming new edit to this section (according to the article history), which was really a new section in the wrong place. I've moved that new section to the right place.

1729:

is not an anachronism. It's simply a part of daily language. Anyway, that was not the point of my previous post. It was primarily about the historical aspects of the article, for the 130 years when

2144:

I don't see why the teams need to be of equal status to have explicitly named titles. This move is either the right thing to do for the reason of having better titles, or it's not. Please discuss.

1228:

moving sections for better reading and attempting to find references. This is all to my preference, so opinions/suggestion are welcome and help would be greatly appreciated in any of the areas. --

1295:

This was brought up before, though there was no resolution. The logo shown is the logo of the Football Federation, not of the team or any other Australian national football team for that matter.

854:, no other national soccer/football team article uses "men's" in the title. Perhaps it would be better to discuss this on a larger scale than just Australia (after all, consistency is one of the 733: 2158:

You're right about that, at least. And because the teams do not need to be of equal status, this is clearly an issue that needs discussing across the board, not just for one team at a time. –

2455:

That's a bit low, like many of your other comments. I joined the discussion 5 days ago. Describing all supporters as "neutral" and all opposers as "circle jerk" is pretty unconstructive too.

1989:

is violated by highlighting one team to the exclusion of the other. You have to remember: TWO national teams exist. One is not fairly represented here. UNDUE weight is given to one team. --

930:

makes sense to me. But I have an outstanding query, which I posted on the Talk page of someone who has since posted in this thread, so he has chosen to ignore me. Puzzling. It's about this "

1126:- current title is an accurate reflection of the article's references. As Andrewa said, such is the way of the English language. On the bright side, it lets us keep a more concise title. 1504:

2nyte has just added the kit supplier's details to the article. I edit articles for lots of sports. Soccer seems the only one where editors are obsessed with doing this. What's the point?

3508:

doesn't say seek global consensus to fix these problems when identified. No global consensus required to fix this article's naming problems. (Show me a single policy/pillar on that.) --

1074:- This change would set a precedent and therefore affect more than just Australian articles; therefore, I believe the discussion ought to take place at a more centralised location (e.g. 3057:

because the abundance of sources showing Australia has two national teams exist is there and that they are co-equal in their representation of Australia. We should really figure out if

2356:

Fair's fair, I give credit to you for the Checker article. I think my main point holds though. I don't really understand your choice of language here, am I supposed to be intimidated?

1846:

I think it is clear that LauraHale is picking on this article because there is a belief that this article could be moved. If that move is achieved, then LauraHale would then move onto

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matters, completely disregards the lengthy comments I have made, and is a 100% factually incorrect representation of them. This is some of the worst advocacy I have seen. Anywhere.

1653:...". That's fine with me. But it seem ridiculous to have an article covering the whole history of the national team, obviously including the time when it was officially known as a 3116:

is the domain of the project how that the soccer Wikiproject should dicate policy in for the title? And why should a Wikiproject that has members who support flagrantly violating

1884:

It's really not on to post someone elses comments (not from your own talk page by the looks of it) on a different Talk page, is it? At best leave a link to the relevant Talk page.

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We are told that "World Cup qualification in 2006 has seen Australian association football increase considerably in domestic popularity and in international competitiveness."

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is the other. The same with soccer. No, this is not right. But it is reality. For better or for worse, Knowledge's policy is to follow the reality rather than the ideal.

3246:

Socceroos recently played against Costa Rica was officially "Australia vs Costa Rica". Australia is the name of the team that represented Football Federation Australia.

3827: 3706:" in front.) That is incorrect. And THAT is the issue. Can the issue I actually raised be discussed here, rather than a manipulative concoction of a bad faith editor? 724: 888:. Yes, it is a silly and needlessly insulting name, but the decision has already been made and now we need to deal with the inevitable consequences, such as this. -- 3807: 2307:

editors on this page should be considered as one vote for the purposes of the discussion. The individuals concerned speak with one voice, which is the voice of the "

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soccer team" would overwhelmingly refer to the men's team, so I am not so convinced about the nominator's concerns. On the other issue, clearly given the result at

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Agreed. Clavdia, you need to stop with the aggressive language. By all means feel aggrieved if the discussion doesn't go your way, just don't take it out on us. –

2988:

Not strange at all. All national team articles are named with a noun instead of an adjective. It is the team of the nation, rather than that of the nationality.--

1201:

double this player drain list. Even currently, Nikita Rukavytsya, Archie Thompson and Neil Kilkenny are playing caps for Australia despite being born overseas.

2185:. The only real exceptions to that are likely to be certain groups of religious extremists, who are opposed to women having any freedom generally. The fact that 1709:. It's not a good choice of name. I also note that your IP address geolocates to Brisbane or nearby. You really need to spend some time on the other side of the 3799: 17: 3686:

proposed bringing this matter here. (With an obvious, bad faith, ulterior motive I believe. He wants this to fail because he hates my success on maintaining

3181:

If it really is some sort of global practice, can you please explain it? I am not good at accepting "everybody else does it" as a reason for doing anything.

2757:"I have a suggestion: read what I actually wrote" assumes wrongly I did not read it. I did read it. I noticed that rather than try to address the issue of 1562: 1248: 1048: 851: 715: 3449:

the bad faith editor here. Now, can you tell us of any problem with correcting the title of THIS article to "Australia national association football team"?

605:

in the areas where it is popular long before the round ball code was played there. The language used in Knowledge has to reflect that. It's just a reality.

655:"Most capped" section header said it was updated 12 Jan 2011, when the individual rows for Schwarzer, Neill and Emerton state last cap was 25 January 2011. 2106:

become involved. But shouting down every mild disagreement with calls of "biased", "sexist", "nasty chauvinist" etc. will move the initiative backwards.

2065:

should be a doddle, no? Or perhaps it is just a few who are pushing their POV that all national teams, regardless of gender or sport, are created equal.

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I've told you why not. There must be something in your psychology that prevents you from accepting my answer. Is this just like your refusal to accept

1851: 1800: 3572:(copying my answer from WP:FOOTY) The name is not grammatically incorrect - in the case of sports article titles, Australia is not an adjective but a 2551:

one gender over another. (Did you have a suggestion for percentages of content about the men's team versus the women's team?) Removing it is rather

2058: 1303:(the yellow crest with the kangaroo and emu) are both used on the national teams jersey's and I think either one would be a suitable replacement. -- 444:

Agree with everything you propose - I had intentions of doing / proposing similar but it is a huge task and never had the time to do so. Good luck.

547:

Why on earth do we have to call it association football when clearly it is football under the same wiki editing as 99% of national teams on here?--

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One national team is discussed exclusively in the article to the exclusion of the other. This is the starting point of any conversation about

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Games are mostly broadcasted by SBS and Fox Sports Australia. Audience for games has soared since the Socceroos historic victory over Uruguay.

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in any way possible, you completely ignore the other articles. The cricket team, rugby union team, rugby league team, netball team, etc are

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Erm yes i have seen the Australian team play in all kinds of kit designs that are not just green and gold... and not royal blue either ;) --

2835:, I have read it. I reject your fundamental reasoning. There is not point in addressing point D in a progression of points like A -: --> 582: 548: 529: 430: 2372:

Clavdia, just because a group of people share an opinion does not mean their !votes should be considered en bloc. I'm sure if anyone from

1614:) 04:08, 8 October 2013 (UTC) Hi,I will be doing the review of this article.First and foremostly you work on the tags put in place by me. 382:

The age is actually calculated automatically by the template based on the birthday so there are no concerns about them being out of date.

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I've just fully protected for three days due to the ongoing edit warring. Please try to solve this issue through talk page discussion.

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Australia is the official name of the team. The current title is an attempt to disambiguate between the various uses of Australia.

1665:, and avoid using that word. It's taking the campaign to change the name of the sport in a very Orwellian and dishonest direction. 1265: 3576:. It probably looks awkward because this would often be prefaced by a modifier such as "the", but this is not included due to our 3464:

There is a large scare problem, why are you not seeking a large scale solution? It is much more comprehensive and in good faith.--

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I agree that it is an obvious grammar correction, but for the sake of courtesy and consistency I think it should be discussed on

976:

I repeat. This is a genuine question. I am not trying to be provocative. Just trying to understand. Please show some good faith.

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Well, someone would only start a page move discussion if they thought they stood a chance of being successful, wouldn't they?

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Why should they? Everyone has a right to contribute to a discussion if it concerns them. Why not get some more people from

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means in that context? Can you explain how or why it will ever change? For that half of the Australian population the word

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In early 2005, it was thought that FFA had entered into discussions with AFC for Australia to join Asia and leave Oceania

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We have bad grammar (broadcasted), obvious POV (soared....historic), and Fox Soccer in the USA (for Australian soccer?)

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

914:

is really nothing much at all. Nobody uses that name in practice. So, I'd like to see the national team described as a

692:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Schwarzer (who reached 88 caps and #1 position today) was updated in infobox, but not in "most capped" section below.

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for an example) but it is only borderline relevant, I guess it doesn't cause any harm as long as it gets referenced.

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Why do you think the football Wikiproject has the exclusive domain for all articles about sport national teams?

2308: 2070: 1973: 1943: 1872: 1795:, not all of us soccer fans are fanatical ideologues about the name. :) I think the article should be renamed to 2446: 2394: 2361: 2316: 2040: 1253: 3647:

OK, this is where the discussion began. Can we kill the other bad faith thread, and just continue here please?

1749: 1692: 881: 847: 552: 533: 449: 434: 2195:

it's evident that Laura has been pushing this very POV for at least two years, without any success; check out

1343:? That's what the Infobox says. Do we have a source for that, or is it just a Sydney based fans' perspective? 586: 304:

The section needs work certainly. As for the Fox Soccer Channel, they do show Asian world cup qualifiers (see

1212: 1185: 2888:"So you reject the fact that the article is solely about the men's team?" No. Let me be clear: The article 2019:. Your suggestion that this pillar and this policy be disregarded is offensive to all Knowledge editors. -- 1099: 812: 518: 117: 3744:

newspaper articles. I found plenty more when looking for examples if you would like further proof. Cheers,

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says it is about the Australia national association football team. Australia has TWO national teams. I

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want to discuss the inherent sexism involved in claiming the team as genderless? All those sources that

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LOL. I guess I should have avoided the absolute. I'll rephrase. Hardly anybody ever calls the team the

3661:

Fair enough. I've taken the ongoing discussion from there, and responded to your most recent comments.

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he was never eligible as his grandparents, while now Australian citizens, were not born in Australia.

3285:, for any sport, or any country. But that's effectively what the title of the article is doing. Why? 3232: 2098:

There's already a 7500 word discussion at "Suggested move". Most contributors seem to think it's not.

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It is necessary to have the title in inverted commas and italicize rather than just one of the two.--

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Apologies, I should have been clearer. I meant a discussion involving all articles in the subcats of

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and the subsequent mass renaming of categories that has since taken place, this article should be at

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There is NOTHING wrong about introducing neutrality and verifiability in article titles to Knowledge

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I will bite willful ignorance, incompetence and ideologically driven fanaticism wherever I see it.

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OK, I can fix the bad grammar, but I think everything after the first sentence should be deleted.

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I'm sorry, I don't understand what that post is trying to say. Posts that include the structure "

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I have removed the claim that Cristiano Ronaldo was eligible for Australian selection. Under the

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It's effectively a disambiguator - if this was a non-sports article, it would be something like

2974:

Probably a bit pedantic but not everyone who has represented Australia has been an Australian.

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to contribute to the discussion? I would welcome their input. Just be careful you don't violate

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a separate entity, with a completely independant notability. The women's article dates back to

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and see how the language works there. One simple example is that every secondary school has a

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football was primarily known as a female sport and the men's game was a minority interest.

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I expanded the section a small amount with some referenced notes, but it still needs work.

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team. The players may only have tenuous qualifications to play for the team and there are

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This is precisely the kind of weaselish claim that must have good sources, or it must go.

1093:. As morally commendable as the proposal may be, and IMO it is, this is not the place to 3835: 3745: 3724: 3662: 3627: 3590: 3370: 3340: 3308: 3251: 3218: 3121: 3054: 3046: 2979: 2909: 2901: 2762: 2556: 2470: 2412: 2377: 2159: 1986: 1985:

it. Thus, when it comes to THE Australian national team as it relates to this article,

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The title is a compromise and corresponds with the main en.wiki article on the sport,

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Nobody in Australia (and maybe not anywhere else) would ever call the Socceroos the "

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About half the men's national teams articles already have men in the article name in

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doesn't exist and pretending that Australia doesn't have a women's national team.

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national team, of which Australia has two? I look forward to your suggestions. --

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is about the men's team," Good. We're in agreement. The title says it is about

1649:, I have no intention of trying to change the name of this article away from "... 3772: 3720: 3707: 3690:

as the name for the game in Australia on Knowledge.) The issue wasn't about the

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examples of the use of "Australia team" can be found in the first paragraphs of

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

3387:, but that doesn't justify its ungrammatical use in the title of this article. 827:

that piece of vandalism is "only for now". In any event there is no ambiguity.

581:

is this to appease the aussie rules users on this place? for goodness sake...--

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It's because in Australia there are four distinct professional sports called

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Judge jury and executioner, you certainly like to get straight to the point

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fully accept and acknowledge the article text is solely about the men's team

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are saying to you means that you simply won't get any traction this way...

1593:. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review. 1247:

I was hoping to add all the kits, or at least the most notable ones in the

800:

use "soccer" instead of "association football". The main article is called

788:, avoiding gender bias requires us to disambiguate national sports teams. 357:

work out someone's age from his date of birth. How about we drop the ages?

2559:

pushing by suggesting this is not an issue despite ongoing discussions.--

2516:

Which is not how that tag works, and you know it. Stop being disruptive.

1051:. I don't see how Australia would be any different 99% of other nations. 958: 1862:, but this has been consistently opposed by central communities such as 1854:. It's clear that LauraHale's arguments are based on trying to move all 1911:, Let's be brutally clear here. The issue of "false equivalence" is a 1637:

in this article is in the contribution of that word to the name of the

272:

In the United States, qualifiers are broadcasted by Fox Soccer Channel.

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to the article. The article gives undue weight to the men's team. --

2376:

had a dissenting point of view, they would express it here as well. –

1445:

What? That's written as a statement. Was it meant to be a question?

1339:

Has anyone told fans outside Sydney that the team's home stadium is

3555:

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Phrasing_of_national_team_names

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is a policy that should apply to Australian sport team articles. --

3771:. Why should Knowledge use such an uncommon and clumsy construct? 2838:

D. This suggests the validity of point D. Point A remains this:

738:

Australia men's national association football team all time record

3736:

use of "Australia team" can be found in the first paragraphs of

222:

The frequency and purpose of current changes is just ridiculous.

3504:

actually supports an argument for soccer over football anyway.

3213:

No, the name of the team is Australia. It's not necessarily an

2846:. Now, from that starting point, please discuss the issues of 1661:

federation, in a country where many exclusively call the game

25: 3146:

Laura and HiLo, again, in your latest attempt to lash out at

2497:

As Australia verifiably has two national teams, I have added

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article (which at present doesn't even give a hatnote to the

1799:

to bring it into line with the international standards like

734:

Australia national association football team all time record

756:

Australia men's national under-20 association football team

747:

Australia men's national under-17 association football team

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about the use of association football/football/soccer and

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And this is exactly the kind of problem I predicted when

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And there's another post that avoids the topic. Anyway, "

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Yes, it is a question. I forgot to put a question mark.--

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Are we in complete denial? The only mention of the word

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a

2547: 2196: 2648:. Your time would be better spent writing articles on 729:

List of men's Australia national football team results

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team, which nobody (except Knowledge) EVER calls the

1591:

Talk:Australia national association football team/GA1

1152:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

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Australia national under-20 association football team

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Australia national under-17 association football team

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as well as in common speech (two examples here from

2912:given the problems described repeatedly to you? -- 720:Australia men's national association football team 3053:. It is only about gender equality if you are a 3041:Sorry. The discussion is about enforcement of , 2946:Why the strange usage of "Australia" in the name? 1031:Category:Men's national sports teams of Australia 237:Article claims Mark Viduka avabile for selection! 2608:issue? What other solutions do you propose? -- 725:List of Australia national football team results 1097:such a change in English usage. Currently, the 3496:It falls into the same category of pretending 3301:Australia (national association football team) 18:Talk:Australia men's national soccer team 2053:not involved, I suppose then that moving the 1842:This move request is part of a wider campaign 922:). As for the gender thing, explictly saying 8: 3269:. The team representing Germany is known as 1049:Category:National association football teams 852:Category:National association football teams 716:Australia national association football team 566:. See the talk page and FAQ there for more. 2704:men's team despite the article being about 1276:. Any help would be greatly appreciated. -- 1916:at the expense of Knowledge's policies of 1522: 3227:. It is, however, a team that represents 1852:New Zealand men's national football team 1801:United States men's national soccer team 147:Surely 1974, 2006 and 2010 makes three. 3482:as the name of the sport in Australia? 2959:" would be more grammatically correct? 2761:, you instead continued with combative 2059:Australia national women's cricket team 1553: 1525: 882:Talk:Soccer in Australia#Requested move 848:Talk:Soccer in Australia#Requested move 414:Shortening and cleaning up this article 3114:Australia men's national goalball team 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2063:Australia national men's cricket team 765:Australia men's Olympic football team 7: 3321:" aren't helpful, because it isn't. 1797:Australia men's national soccer team 697:The result of the move request was: 3303:(or whatever you call the sport). 1848:New Zealand national football team 1274:Template:Football kit/pattern list 906:is the name within Australia, but 133:I've changed WC appearances to 2. 24: 3319:...if it was..., then it would... 2840:Australia has two national teams. 1629:Soccer? Has it become a non-word? 2240:with such troll-like behaviour? 2049:With those nasty chauvinists of 1758:please do not bite the newcomers 214:Just leave it alone for a while! 29: 2055:Australia national cricket team 1500:Who cares who supplies the kit? 1358:This seems to have been fixed. 1106:Australian Women's Cricket Team 761:Australia Olympic football team 701:per lack of consensus below. - 3383:is certainly more formal than 1675:08:04, 25 September 2013 (UTC) 1514:22:16, 26 September 2013 (UTC) 1484:22:37, 25 September 2013 (UTC) 1469:15:34, 25 September 2013 (UTC) 1455:15:23, 25 September 2013 (UTC) 1441:14:37, 25 September 2013 (UTC) 1427:14:08, 25 September 2013 (UTC) 1412:12:58, 25 September 2013 (UTC) 1396:07:53, 25 September 2013 (UTC) 1368:08:08, 25 September 2013 (UTC) 1190:02:25, 10 September 2011 (UTC) 886:Australia national soccer team 846:. Per the recent consensus at 615:16:47, 18 September 2010 (UTC) 591:11:58, 18 September 2010 (UTC) 1: 3851:11:37, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3834:regarding the cricket team). 3781:11:25, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3761:11:18, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3731:12:00, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3716:11:14, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3678:11:43, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3657:11:33, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3643:11:29, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3621:11:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3606:11:04, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3567:07:22, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3518:09:34, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3492:09:15, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3474:06:35, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3459:06:06, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3444:04:33, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3429:04:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3414:03:11, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3397:03:04, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3375:03:01, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3360:02:49, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3345:02:39, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3331:02:32, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3313:02:26, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3295:02:30, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 3256:11:34, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 3241:11:08, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 3191:11:00, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 3173:07:49, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 3142:07:40, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 3106:07:34, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 3087:07:16, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 3071:07:35, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 3035:06:35, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 3013:05:58, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 2998:05:27, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 2984:05:13, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 2969:04:47, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 2940:04:35, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 2922:08:47, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2884:08:41, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2860:08:35, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2803:08:27, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2776:08:17, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2745:08:09, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2718:08:06, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2683:08:02, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2618:07:49, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2593:07:43, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2569:07:33, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2534:22:07, 27 November 2013 (UTC) 2511:14:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 2477:01:09, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 2465:00:19, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 2451:23:51, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 2436:23:27, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 2419:01:09, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 2399:23:51, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 2384:23:05, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 2366:23:51, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 2348:22:24, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 2321:22:18, 29 November 2013 (UTC) 2291:07:47, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2268:00:37, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2250:00:22, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2235:23:30, 27 November 2013 (UTC) 2216:22:00, 27 November 2013 (UTC) 2166:23:20, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 2154:20:57, 27 November 2013 (UTC) 2134:20:57, 27 November 2013 (UTC) 2116:12:11, 27 November 2013 (UTC) 2093:02:59, 27 November 2013 (UTC) 2075:00:07, 27 November 2013 (UTC) 2045:20:02, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 2029:19:33, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 1999:19:56, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 1978:19:50, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 1963:19:43, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 1948:19:35, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 1934:19:31, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 1898:19:19, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 1877:19:07, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 1830:10:10, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 1784:01:21, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 1770:01:13, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 1744:15:59, 22 November 2013 (UTC) 1697:12:00, 22 November 2013 (UTC) 254:22:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC) 232:02:30, 10 November 2009 (UTC) 670:17:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC) 406:06:07, 6 February 2010 (UTC) 392:02:34, 6 February 2010 (UTC) 347:01:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC) 337:Better now, certainly. :-) 332:01:19, 15 January 2010 (UTC) 318:00:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC) 1860:XYZ men's national ABC team 1624:04:08, 8 October 2013 (UTC) 1378:The text under the heading 1217:08:31, 7 January 2012 (UTC) 639:03:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC) 576:10:20, 18 August 2010 (UTC) 557:09:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC) 538:04:47, 12 August 2010 (UTC) 459:Popularity increase in lead 200:09:14, 7 January 2012 (UTC) 186:09:12, 7 January 2012 (UTC) 172:09:07, 7 January 2012 (UTC) 157:08:53, 7 January 2012 (UTC) 3885: 2124:Even though they're true? 1286:12:52, 28 April 2013 (UTC) 1238:12:51, 28 April 2013 (UTC) 1145:19:48, 2 August 2011 (UTC) 1119:09:05, 2 August 2011 (UTC) 910:is the international name. 706:22:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC) 143:06:15, 26 March 2010 (UTC) 126:06:04, 26 March 2010 (UTC) 1748:There are discussions on 1353:12:22, 18 June 2013 (UTC) 1086:00:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC) 1061:14:49, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 1043:14:31, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 1025:13:38, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 1010:01:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 986:10:02, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 972:03:31, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 944:00:57, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 902:I take a different view. 898:00:37, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 868:09:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC) 856:principle naming criteria 837:12:35, 24 July 2011 (UTC) 817:08:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC) 793:01:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC) 780:22:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC) 523:12:44, 19 June 2010 (UTC) 1750:Talk:Soccer in Australia 1721:team. Can you tell what 1159:Please do not modify it. 689:Please do not modify it. 648:I noticed a few things: 543:The name and redirecting 496:07:39, 1 June 2010 (UTC) 481:05:15, 1 June 2010 (UTC) 2546:, Please do not remove 2181:, let alone as part of 1705:I agree with you about 1329:05:21, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 1313:05:06, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 1262:australiansocceroos.com 1254:theworldgame.sbs.com.au 1100:Australian Cricket Team 454:12:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 439:12:05, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 352:Why show players' ages? 3553:Started discussion at 3261:Australia is known as 1850:and try to move it to 2896:. And hence we have 2763:point of view pushing 2303:The contributions of 1856:XYZ national ABC team 1657:team, representing a 1270:Template:Football kit 1258:oldfootballshirts.com 100:World Cup Appearances 42:of past discussions. 3788:Fox Sports Australia 3589:newspaper articles. 3169:(tell Luke off here) 2880:(tell Luke off here) 2799:(tell Luke off here) 2741:(tell Luke off here) 2679:(tell Luke off here) 2589:(tell Luke off here) 2530:(tell Luke off here) 2344:(tell Luke off here) 2287:(tell Luke off here) 2212:(tell Luke off here) 1707:Association football 1651:association football 920:Association football 912:Association football 564:Association football 351: 3694:. It was about the 2660:- all of whom pass 1223:April 2013 clean-up 802:Soccer in Australia 263:The entry says.... 3702:team. (Even with " 2309:average Wikipedian 1374:Golden era mystery 486:Just remove it. — 3277:. It's never the 1581: 1580: 1341:Stadium Australia 1207:comment added by 1180:comment added by 621:Cristiano Ronaldo 513:comment added by 429:comment added by 378: 364:comment added by 300: 286:comment added by 129: 112:comment added by 97: 96: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3876: 3848: 3843: 3838: 3820:Evening Standard 3758: 3753: 3748: 3675: 3670: 3665: 3640: 3635: 3630: 3603: 3598: 3593: 3165: 3162: 3159: 2876: 2873: 2870: 2834: 2795: 2792: 2789: 2737: 2734: 2731: 2675: 2672: 2669: 2658:Mackenzie Arnold 2603: 2585: 2582: 2579: 2545: 2526: 2523: 2520: 2493:Undue weight tag 2443:Clavdia chauchat 2391:Clavdia chauchat 2358:Clavdia chauchat 2340: 2337: 2334: 2313:Clavdia chauchat 2283: 2280: 2277: 2208: 2205: 2202: 2037:Clavdia chauchat 1910: 1818: 1810: 1794: 1535:Copyvio detector 1523: 1219: 1192: 1169:zullo at everton 1161: 1142: 1103:is the men, the 691: 668: 525: 441: 377: 358: 299: 280: 190:No harm done ;) 128: 106: 78: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3884: 3883: 3879: 3878: 3877: 3875: 3874: 3873: 3846: 3841: 3836: 3816:Bleacher Report 3756: 3751: 3746: 3673: 3668: 3663: 3638: 3633: 3628: 3601: 3596: 3591: 3267:Australian team 3233:Jmorrison230582 3163: 3160: 3157: 2948: 2874: 2871: 2868: 2828: 2793: 2790: 2787: 2735: 2732: 2729: 2673: 2670: 2667: 2597: 2583: 2580: 2577: 2539: 2524: 2521: 2518: 2495: 2338: 2335: 2332: 2281: 2278: 2275: 2206: 2203: 2200: 2067:Jmorrison230582 1970:Jmorrison230582 1940:Jmorrison230582 1907:Jmorrison230582 1904: 1869:Jmorrison230582 1844: 1812: 1804: 1788: 1689:124.177.110.163 1631: 1585:This review is 1577: 1549: 1521: 1502: 1376: 1337: 1293: 1245: 1225: 1202: 1198: 1175: 1171: 1166: 1157: 1138: 1134: 1128: 699:pages not moved 687: 677: 664: 646: 623: 545: 508: 504: 461: 446:203.214.145.228 424: 416: 359: 354: 281: 261: 239: 216: 107: 102: 74: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3882: 3880: 3872: 3871: 3870: 3869: 3868: 3867: 3866: 3865: 3864: 3863: 3862: 3861: 3860: 3859: 3858: 3857: 3856: 3855: 3854: 3853: 3828:Michael Clarke 3769:Australia team 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