Talk:Australia men's national soccer team/Archive 1

2043:"horse". And, set in their ways, they might come on Knowledge and look up the word "horse". Obviously, they're going to be taken to the page describing the animal, as most people would expect. But at the top of the page, there is a little note saying that the word "horse" may refer to other things, and takes them to a page which lists them. "Horse" is the name of the animal, but can refer to other things when used by different people. "Football" is the name of the sport (see note again), but also can refer to different sports when used by other people (ie "AFL and rugby fans"). If people decide to search for football referring to another sport, they can quickly be directed to the page they are looking for. 1158:" be a compromise? I think "National" should be retained on the basis that there is potential for confusion. For instance, a "New Zealand" team exists in the A-League, but it is not their National team (and hardly has any New Zealanders in it). Also, there are subnational teams (e.g. state representative teams), and other non-national representative teams (the Australian Institute of Sport team, etc) which when competing overseas (e.g. the annual Singapore U-19 Cup) could end up "representing" Australia. By the way, if you look at the history, I tried adding a disambiguation bit to the intro of the article with Rugby Union/AFL/League some time ago, but it was promptly edited out. 1493:. Some people on this talkpage seem genuinely concerned with the potential for confusion of "football" (rather than simply being on a "I'm Aussie! It's 'soccer', damnit!" tear), and with such apparent confusion we should surely have a disambig at football rather than simply redirecting to soccer. Re: countries that deviate, I know about the USA and NZ, and they're a pain — and what about countries that don't call it football? Italia calls it "calcio", apparently for reasons of national pride; many Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking countries say "futebol"; Germany has fußball or something like that. Hmm, I think I'm just being contrary at this point. 1973:, and I don't think anyone who supports those codes will argue with that. As mentioned above, anyone looking for information on the national teams in other codes will usually search for the "national rugby league/union team", and on the chance they look for football and find soccer, it is pretty simple to click the link at the top of the page to go to the disambig page. Anyone looking for the Socceroos will most likely search for "football" if they call it football or "soccer" if they call it soccer. A recent poll in the Age found 55% would prefer for "soccer" to be called football instead of Australian rules. So, I think putting the page at 1523:

whole category. It is a form of intrinsic disambiguation. THERE IS NO need for disambiguation with other codes, as the other team pages could retain their existing headings (Australian national rugby union team and Australia national rugby league team). I think you should consider... would anybody looking for the Wallabies page ever enter "Australia national football team" in Knowledge search? Try it out on your non-Knowledge using friends. In my office poll, zero out of four entered "football" as a search term. I have to admit that for the Socceroos, only one entered "football".

2039:

that may use that name in "everyday speech". I don't see the harm in this, and I can't see any reason to do otherwise - football is the name of the sport in this country (see my note somewhere up the page re Football Federation Australia), so why shouldn't the page be named football? When you say that "AFL and rugby fans" call it football, you are referring to a specific demographic, For example, (the easiest i can think of), a certain group of people might call

1452:, not at Azzuri). I would prefer moving it back to "Australia national football team", to fit with the vast majority of football teams, but e'en as I disagree I understand the potential for confusion with our national rugby or league teams. "Australia national soccer team" would be an acceptable compromise. "Football (soccer)" is unnecessary – it's just a way to shoehorn "football" in there, but still breaks the convention of football-related articles. 31: 2777:

football (as evidenced by the backlinks), and the redirect ensures they end up at the "correct" page. The few who are looking for rugby or AFL should have no problems realising they are not at a page concerning rugby or AFL and can click the disambig link. Causing EVERYONE who searches for football to go through the disambig is just wasting their time when we know what the highest proportion is actually looking for.

3016:

itself nor result in multiple name changes. To me, it seems that the only way to have a solution is to have one imposed by someone external to this debate. At the end of the day, I hope that a good name is chosen out of respect for our national representative team. I will certainly be cheering the Socceroos/Australia National Football Team/Australia National Soccer Team from the stands in Berlin on July 9...

1217:

football team", but an unofficial nickname "socceroos" - very encyclopedic. The calls for a disam page seem rather pointless to me. Rugby fans dont call their sport football, and League fans seem to use the term Rugby League. I can see no reason why this page should not be moved back to "Australian national football team" and then follow the wikipedia style for pages like this. --

3075: 750:. The thing is, what you consider "real" football isn't the point since someone else will think that ARF is "real football". I can easily see both Australian rules football fans and rugby league fans typing in "Australian national football team" in the search box. They should see a disam page that shows the various uses of the term. After all, we have a 3117: 1012:... Frankly, I think it would be better to sidestep the whole issue and go for what's clearest. Regardless of whether the game's players and followers like the word, there's no way you can mistake the word "soccer" to refer to any other sport. The word "football" has that problem in Australia, and it's not going away anytime soon. ～ 2813:. "Causing EVERYONE who searches for football to go through the disambig is just wasting their time..." Jeez, only if they are too lazy to click one more time. It has an educational effect for the "there is only one kind of football"-type people ;-) I'm only trying to be logical and consistent; that's why I started the 1000:) — and, thanks to the national team's recent success, it's only now that people in this category are getting interested in this article. Worldwide, soccer happens to be the most common code of football, but most people playing it, I venture, don't speak English, at least not as a native language. As for what a 1424:

The cases for these options have already been made variously on this page. Perhaps I should set up a straw poll on these options. Personally, I'm happy for the article to be moved to "national soccer team" as a compromise to all options (it grates least nerves). Moreover, I think the old title should

1237:

There seems to be a common misconception among soccer fans that "soccer" is an aberration, when it is used by hundreds of millions of people, around the world. If we exclude people in India, the Philippines (etc) for whom English is a second language (or lingua franca), "soccer" is probably the name

1227:

Ah denial, more than a river. "Football" in New South Wales and Queensland is rugby league. You can assert otherwise, but you are wrong. Rugby union is usually "rugby", but there are exceptions, such as the Sydney University Football Club, founded 1863, which is the oldest rugby club in Australia and

649:

It seems quite simple to me. the A-League is "Football but not as you know it", the Australian governing body is the Football Federation Australia, the teams are Sydney Football Club, Melbourne Victory Football Club etc..., with the few exceptions noted above (US Canada New Zealand etc) its Football.

289:

The "socceroos" is a nickname, and an embarrassing one at that. The FA have already stopped using it, apart from the requirments in the QANTAS deal, and when than ends, the usage will cease by the FA. The name most fans what the team to be called is "Australia", and Australia national football team

3015:

This discussion now is close to exceeding the length of the original article. It is obvious that resolution is unlikely to be achieved as the group has become polarised. This article lived under its former name for a very long time, and although there was some debate, it did not threaten the article

2834:

Well, yes, but part of the point of wikilinks is not to surprise the reader too much. A lot of soccer-fan editors overseas are in the habit of creating country links in the format ] without checking them. Having the redirect straight here ensures that readers go straight to where they were expecting

1808:

I don't understand - the only reason why the disambiguation is/was needed was because of potential confusion regarding the which football team we were talking about. Hence I fail to see how it is disingenious to talk about them in this context. Also - I never said anything about Australian rules.

1576:

That wasn't my intent, and I apologise if I was unclear (it's bad enough to be biting, without biting haphazardly as well!). I don't object to "soccer" on these grounds, I just object to any of us framing the discussion in terms of "what an Australian might look for". What an Australian would look

1471:

is standard format for those teams whose countries understand soccer predominately as football. For those countries in which other codes of football predominate (ie, Anglophones outside the UK), the article title deviates. As much as some fans of the sport might try to deny, soccer is what the sport

1132:

I don't know if its more popular. It seems those who won't accept soccer as the common term for the sport are even more bitterly opposed to using the common term for the team. I'd argue the rugby union equivalent should be at "Wallabies", just as New Zealand's team is at All Blacks. However, I think

942:

How is moving it back to the socceroos going with the consensus? Not everyone wants this, and looking at the history of the page and who makes edits and moves the page, the people who contribute the most to the article want it to remain at "Australia national football team" Given that this is the

797:

Disagree. Up until 3 days ago there was no problem with this article being called "Australia National Football Team", Rugby League and Aussie Rules were in Knowledge and noone seemed to have problems finding them. As pointed out above, the handful of "soccer national team" pages are run by "soccer"

1562:

I don't think it would be wise to pigeon-hole the "soccer" viewpoint as a solely nimby-ist/parochial kind of POV. Surely the average reader can understand that soccer means football, and football can mead soccer. Both terms are used relatively equally (numerically) to refer to this particular code,

1530:

I conclude that, at the end of the day, any formal title incorporating either Football or Soccer (or both) would be easily found by any person searching for that article. Please also note that some people have not heard of "socceroos" (esp. foreigners) and therefore would not enter that as a search

1377:

is definitely not the correct name for this article. I'm strongly in the football camp, but I think "we" will have to concede that this constant moving back-and-forth is not doing anyone any good and a decision must be made. There's all that "polls are evil" thing, but this needs to be solved, it's

650:

Even the most staunch hold out of the name soccer, namely the Australian Media has acknowledged its proper name, every news paper has results and news under the football heading, Rugby Union under the Rugby heading, Rugby League under the League heading and AFL under the AFL heading. Jaksar 5/12/02

498:

The name of the game has been corrected back to Football, to align with the 7 billion people of the word who refer to it as Football. Us Australians will learn that Rugby refers to Rugby Union, League refers to Rugby League, and AFL is just that. Football is now called Football, as it should always

494:

Soccer is no longer the common term. In fact I haven't heard anyone call it soccer for at least 6 months. This is even just people in the streets talking about going to see "that new football league". The game is run by the FOOTBALL federation of Australia, my local team is the Sydney FOOTBALL club

253:

Really? I would have to say this is one of the most incorrect comments I have ever read on wikipedia. My grandparents were born here and I call it football. The people I spoke with in the cove yesterday at the Sydney FC heom game call it football and most of them seemed to be born here. You may

2776:

But your argument was that the page should be called "soccer" as that is correct Australian English. The page is called soccer, so as to cater for Australians as per your request (although this POV was disputed somewhere further up the page). Most people (esp those outside Australia) will look for

2073:

pissed off. ;o) Soccer is actually unusual among the games called football in having a widely-used name that refers exclusively to itself, and not other games called football, which isn't derived the region in which it was originally played. None of these sports were called anything but "football"

2038:

But when these fans are looking up their sport in an encyclopedia, would they look for "football" or "rugby league"/"rugby union"/"Australian rules"? In cases like this, usually the article is at the actual name, and at the top there is a little note directing users to the correct pages for things

1698:

Whatever - I am not trying to lay sole claim to the word football - I'm pretty sure I would have said that the disambiguation would be unneccesary if this were actually the case - since football would therefore only ever refer to 'soccer'. I thought it was arrogant of you to move the page without

1522:

I would have thought that incorporating both names i.e. "Australia national football (soccer) team" (as per my initial example) would cause the least problems. It is NOT an attempt to incorporate "Football" in the title - there are MANY articles with "Football(Soccer)" in them - in fact there is a

1443:

countries (yes, I know about United States of America and New Zealand, and they're a pain in the arse). We should at least consider the football POV for an article on the Socceroos as well as the apparent Australian POV (I'm pretty sure Grant didn't do that, but it's not worth jumping up and down

1096:

Is there any room for formalising the name of the article? I think Socceroos is actually a nickname and therefore should NOT be the formal name of the article. I think it should revert to Australian National Football Team (perhaps with "Socceroos" in brackets) OR (begrudgingly) Australian National

234:

I disagree. Its Football. For many people its always been football. And as for the "At least discuss the matter before you move the page again", I did not see you do that last week Grant65. And as for the common name? Well today I read the paper and it was called football. Last night the TV

2556:

I pretty sure what you've just suggested has been suggested already (although without analysis :) and that it is in fact the present situation. I've made the move and fixed the redirects, and a couple other links too. Although it's a logical contradiction, I think I'm fine with Australia national

758:(both of which are on the Australian football disam page). And as for the google search, when I typed in Australian National Football Team, the 5th link down was for the national Australian rules football team (the AFL). To me, that's good enough for a disam page. Disam pages are for searching. -- 734:

Disagree. Google "Australian National Football Team" and tell me how many pages you have to go back before you find a link which refers to a Union or League or AFL side as the "Australian National Football Team". In my scan quick scan I found none... maybe I missed something but quite clearly the

700:

The article implies that Australia lost. I agree with 1st point and 3rd point. It seems that the "History" part of the article has blown out of all proportion since I first added some body to it. I think separate articles should now deal with each qualifying campaign to lighten the text burden of

1216:

As the title says I am rather fedup with what has gone on here in the past week. Despite some claims here, no consensus has been reached yet. Throughout this page are calls for the old name to return. As it stands today, the title of this page is not the official name of "Australian national

2954:

Perhaps this is an unusual case where the content is different, but the structure is so almost exactly the same that one disambig page could handle both jobs. 'we have four codes of football: rugby union, which has a national team; rugby league, which has a national team; soccer, which has a

2131:

because a) the article is about an Australian subject, and b) it should conform to the predominate form of English already used in the article (ie, AusE). It should not be "football" because common usage (ie, AusE) trumps official usage. It seems, to me, the only thing left to decide is how to

1526:

Therefore, I agree that some visitors might enter "Australia national soccer team" and be annoyed if it led to a dead end (easily fixed with redirection); but I think (despite the debate), no Australian who has sufficient IQ to use the internet would be totally lost in trying to find whichever

1046:

The term soccer still makes me physically sick...it's FOOTBALL!!! I agree that a lot of people still call it soccer but that is only because the name of football has only been 'implemented' in the past 9 months or so. If we do not update our vocabulary then it will just drift back down to the

1899:

attempted to clean up after myself. Nobody should move an article without being willing to cleanup the redirects or ambiguous links left in its wake. If nothing else, it'll bring to those who do the work a newfound appreciation of just how many " national football team" articles there are.

955:. (That's why people in regions where more than one code is popular, do not tend to use the word "football" and instead refer to them to "AFL", "league", "union" or "soccer".) The mere fact of ambiguity is enough to prevent the article being called "Australian national football team". 495:

and we are playing in the FOOTBALL World Cup...why on Earth would we class this under some mediocre, out-dated name that is only ever raised by people who try to put the game down? To me soccer is what the game used to be in this country...now, we play football. -Super Dulberf Carney-

239:

In Australia, no-one refers to soccer as football. (except maybe very few people who are not native to Australia) If you ask an Australian what is football? they will tell you AFL in Melbourne and NRL in Sydney, but no-where will they tell you it is soccer. Please move the page back.

915:

The article was moved...again. I'm going to move it back to Socceroos (which seems to be the consensus) and protect it from moves. We usually don't do that, but this page has been moved 6 times in the last week. Enough. Work out what you want to do. Not unprotecting it until you do.

718:

I'm an uninvolved admin. I see that it's been proposed that Australian national football team be made a disam page that links to Socceroos, the national rugby league team and also Australian rules football. If you guys have a consensus on that, I'd be glad to create the disam page.

1676:

was formed (which was 18 years after rugby was codified and five years after Australian rules was devised). A word that was rarely used to mean soccer in Australia until a few years ago. It is for reasons like these, in several countries, that the main soccer article is called

990:

people's usage counts. Much of the soccer (a term I use here for clarity's sake) establishment in Australia, not to say many of the game's players and fans — most of the people who'll be writing about it on Knowledge, in other words — like it to be called football. Most people

2191:

I don't think the option is settled on, but it's really getting a bit pointless. However, I'm interested in/confused by your assertion that "soccer" and not "football" is "Australian English", and how overrides the convention of agreeing with the name of the governing body...

2068:

Well, yes, but soccer players and fans, Australian or otherwise, who prefer to call the sport "football" (most do, but not all) are a demographic as well. When Knowledge consensus works, all of the relevant demographics are, if not totally satisfied, then at least not

319:

Speaking of AusE, you're aware we spell it "centre", right? ;-) Cheekiness aside, it appears there is consensus that "soccer" is the common term. We now need to determine the preferred title. I put it again: is there any reason why the article shouldn't be entitled

2932:

I was responding to a suggested merger and I also disagree with your suggestion. I think the only good case for mergers is when the content of two pages is almost identical. In this case one disambig is about national teams and the other is about whole codes of

2081:

much: The word "soccer" has the advantage of being both specific and succinct. Again, to be specific, I think we should specify that this article is about the men's team, and not the women's, which is just as national as the Socceroos. The article can be at

2008:. (As for precedent, this is presently the case for Canada; the U.S. one redirects to a disambiguation page between the men's and women's teams because the latter is at least as well known as the blokes and, until recently, considerably more successful.) ～ 404:

I am not a sysop and have no idea what you are talking about here.I also find it odd that people want to move this page now, when its been here for some time and easy to find, judging by the number of edits and the number of people who contribute to it.

2526:

In other words, although football is used by all three, "national football team" is pretty much only used by soccer, but that it isn't used as often as "national soccer team". I therefore suggest the disambig remain where it is, that this page move to

266:

For my two cents, soccer is by far the most common term. In recent years, there has been a concerted effort by the sport's authorities to promote "soccer" as "football" and the latter is gaining currency. It is still far from common, however. I suggest

1547:

consider the views of the Average Aussie looking for info on the Socceroos. The "only $ nationality will be interested in this article" POV is one that I've only ever seen before from Americans. Intriguing that it occurs so close to home as well...

1097:

Soccer Team. I mean, if there was an article called "McDonald's Family Restaurants in Australia", we wouldn't call it "Maccas" would we? And "Manchester United" is not "The Red Devils". The tone of headings should be consistent with other articles.

637:), so I don't think you can define what it is definitely called in "Australian English". In this case, we should then defer to consistency with the rest of Knowledge whereby the sport the team plays is given by the name of the national federation. 1201:

You can't really compare this to the All Blacks. The All Blacks are world famous for being such. Socceroos...That is just plain stupid and is totally new to me. All other nations have the national team format and Australia should be no different

782:

a disambig page is fine with me (although this Australian national team in Aussie Rules only exists for matches against one other team, and it's not even Aussie Rules that they play!), but I don't think this article should be called

415:

Regardless of whether this page has existed at this title for some time, it has come to the attention of editors who disagree with it. There is seemingly consensus to move the article, but a preffered title has not been settled on.

216:. The reason why the USA and Canada team pages contain "men's" is because in both countries, the women's team has historically been much more successful than the men's team (although this is starting to change in the USA). See also 1334:

Really? I don't think so. In any case the clincher is that that the word "football" is highly ambiguous in Australia, i.e. it can mean at least three different codes. So it's not suitable for use in the name of a soccer-related

951:. What soccer fans, FFA, SBS or the Sydney Morning Herald want to call it are not representative of Australian popular culture and are therefore neither here nor there. There never is a 100% consensus with large groups, but 671:

Intro could use some expansion; as with many articles undergoing naming disputes it only includes info directly relevant to the dispute. Do we have a traditional style or strategy? Any players, current or historic, worth

121:

On an even more pedantic note, the Khmer Rouge were supported by Western powers, including Australia, after Vietnam booted them out in 1978-9, as a three party armed opposition coalition. This included military support.

1957:(or otherwise, including the word soccer) are that (1) more Australians call the game soccer and (2) the word football in Australia is used to describe up to 4 different codes. However, the codes in question are called 2445:

So long as all the redirects point right, it should be fine. Periodically, it would be worthwhile (if the old page is a disambig) to dab links to where they're intended. That said, I'll move the page and correct the

623:

This is an article about an Australian team, and football is by no means used as a common term to denote soccer. As such, it would be incorrect given that Australian articles should be written in Australian English.

1173:, I think it feasible. Not that I think there is anything wrong with editors of this thread being the only voters, there are means by which to attract a greater survey. If conducted, notices could be placed at the 479:

In Australia, the game is known as soccer. Admittedly, on the back of a push by soccer authorities, "football" or "association football" is being used more prominently, but no-one could deny "soccer" as the common

798:

federations. Australia has Football Federation Australia so this page should be moved back. Even in melbourne over 55% of people according to an age poll feel this game should be called "football" - Tancred

1535:"TO END THIS; the debate should now solely consider: Is it confusing or difficult for an average Australian who encounters Knowledge to find their chosen football code based on the wording of the title?" — 3129: 1977:

will (a) cause no confusion for people searching for other sports (although some might get annoyed if they think the "name" of their sport is being taken) and (b) conform with the convention on Knowledge.

2577:

Fuddle said: "I'd like to see a promise from User:Grant65 that he'll clean up each and every item in Special:Whatlinkshere..." Nah. Mate, the person who moved the page from Australia national soccer team

1518:

TO END THIS; the debate should now solely consider: Is it confusing or difficult for an average Australian who encounters Knowledge to find their chosen football code based on the wording of the title?

2238:

Apart from the fact that there isn't an Australian national Australian Rules football team? But yeh, whatever, I'm tired of it. Change it to soccer for the sake of the AFL fans who might get confused.

254:

have heard of Johnny Warren, he called it football and was born here. Today there is a poll in TheAge, a *Melbourne* newspaper and as I write this 50% of the respondents say the game is football.--

943:

official name of the game in Australia, that many people want it to stay there and that it follows the wikipedia style for these sort of articles, I would ask that it be moved back there. - Tancred

1870:? Would you be willing to go to the over 250 pages that link there and fix all those links (I'm assuming you want a disambig page there) which all refer to the Socceroos? I am still in favour of 447:

Cyberjunkie, Why did you move this page? The "socceroos" is a *nickname*. Please go and have a look at how every other national football team treaded in wikipedia and please move the page back.--

2338:

I don't like using men's in the title as it is only special cases like the US which do so - where their womens teams have been historically much more successful, and there is no need in this case.

654: 2585:

Ben, I'm not suprised by that search result, given international usage of the word football. But the debate is about Australian usage of the word football. Try that search using .au sites only.

2283:

readers does not constitute any evidence evidence whatsover of a change in common usage, which was established more than 130 years ago, of "football" meaning Australian rules or rugby football.

1527:

football code they were looking for. Certainly, nobody who contributes to this page would ever accidentally end up at the Socceroos page if they were looking for the Kangaroos or Wallabies...

1047:

disgusting old days of soccah and not let us all bask in the resplendant glory that is FOOTBALL. NO other sport has the right to use the term FOOTball because they don't use their FEET FFS!!!

2688:

This is ridiculous - the 662 pages contain the word soccer and do not contain the word rugby. Of course some of them will not be an entire page about the "soccer" team (note i used the term

2351:(football (soccer) in this context is a sop, not a compromise), with the real title as a redirect to prevent breaking the other articles. Someone should still check for double redirects. 3147: 2663:

Thanks Ben. It proves my points that the word football is ambiguous and that soccer is the common name. Albino, what makes you think those 662 hits that mention soccer are primarily

1926:

I guess we could get a bot to fix those links. If we can't it would be a minor incovenience and an education for people following such links to end up at the disambiguation page ;-)

159:. The belated attempts by the soccer authorities to change this fly in the face of more than 130 years of "football" meaning other codes. If you are unaware of what I'm saying, see 2634:

So 83.5% of Australian websites regarding the "national football team" are referring to football and not rugby. Better let them know they are not using correct Australian English.

95:

um.. these are not right At the moment we play in Yellow for home and green for away. The white kit is the 3rd kit (South Africa play in green and yellow so we wore our 3rd kit)

3160:

I was wondering if you can make a page about the rivarly between socceroos and Uruguay, which the media and fans consider this a rivalry due to the 2002 and 2006 wcq play off's.

301:

I accept that I should have discussed the move first, but the matter seemed obvious to me. What Tancred calls the sport or FFA, Sydney FC or SBS calls it is not common usage in

3175:

The rivalry parts of the articles on soccer are mostly marketing nonsense, and make those articles look bloated and silly. You don't get a rivalry after two games in 20 years.

79: 71: 66: 1141:(or whatever other variant) is a reasonable compromise. I'd prefer "national" be left out as a redundant word. We could hold a straw poll to (loosely) determine "consensus".-- 1791:, now there's a nick to hate *lol*) don't play Australian rules. No, they play another kind of football, and they are recruited from the dominant football code in Australia. 2916: 2331: 2123:

based on it's peak organisation. How can a name change of the sport's (detached) establishment less than twelve months ago possibly cement "football" over "soccer"? In

865:

I still don't like the actual page called soccer, but if the disambig page is really needed i guess we have no choice. Can I just suggest the link to football goes to

457:

Nickname or no, it is the common term by which the team is known. How other national teams are titled is irrelevant if there is a dispute as to the title of this one.

355:

I must say that "Australia national football team" doesn't quite pass the Google test. You get an order of magnitude more pages with "Australia national soccer team".

1754:

was uncontroversial, given that football is a contested and ambiguous word in Australia and that soccer is the common name of the code in Australia. I was wrong.

309:

centre of any Australian city which football team they support or who their favorite football player is, almost none would name a soccer team or a soccer player.

118:

On an even more pedantic note, the "communist" Khmer Rouge did not seize power until 1975, where they went on to kill almost as many Cambodians as the USA did.

2645:

Uhh, Grant, it's not just Australian use that matters, although it has a lot more weight than it would on, say, a discussion on what to name Russian vegetables.

655:

http://news.google.co.uk/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=http://www.theage.com.au/realfooty/news/afl/real-football--the-great-debate/2005/12/05/1133631201816.html

2907:

But it doesn't? It's a disambig. Though it does say that "Australian football" means "Australian rules football" whereas to me an "Australian football" is a

2715:

Errm, I hate to be difficult, but....wouldn't it be logical to have the disambig there, rather than a redirect and a separate disambig? I don't see the logic.

2119:

Again well-expressed, Jiminy. I largely agree, but I'm still not convinced about a primary topic disambiguation. Albino Monkey, it's odd you still claim that

1660:

What is wrong with it? I like soccer, I watch almost every Socceroos game (and I rarely call them anything other than "The Socceroos"). What is wrong is that

17: 2835:

to, and once they're here the disambig link is right at the top of this page to pique their curiosity about other codes. Oh, and I agree with you about the

787:. I don't think any other national football/soccer team articles are given by the team's nickname, that's why it's mentioned in the infobox on the right... 217: 675:

The article mentions arguments over whether our first World Cup qualifying match against North Korea should have been counted as valid... but not who won.

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but neither is universal. There's no reason why Knowledge shouldn't also alternate where appropriate. Hmm... I don't think I've expressed myself well.--

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It was directed mainly at Vix's spurious and rhetorical "would anybody looking for the Wallabies page ever enter "Australia national football team..."

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Btw, I quietly removed the protection against moves. But. PLEASE don't move the article until things are settled or else it'll be reimposed. Thanks. --

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I think the option has been settled on, then. However, I'm reluctant to hold a straw poll on it because I'm not confident we'd not see meatpuppets. --

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Obviously (as shown by the fact this debate is even occurring), Australians have differing views on whether it's "soccer" or "football" (see also

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Confuse? Isn't the point of disambig pages to reduce confusion? If so a disambig should be at the spot where confusion is most likely to occur.

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to move it. Thank you for reprotecting the article, and for your continued involvement in this (probably rather dreary, to outsiders) debate.

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Okay, let's make this the last attempt to reach consensus without a strawpoll. If nobody vouches for Socceroos, the article should be moved to

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I've been involved in many page moves over the past few months, and if the article has a lot of links to it I've (as far as I can remember)

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seems to cover 1970 to 1986, and there's a mention of a decision in 1990 (but not about the qualifiers themselves), but then jumps to 1998.

3161: 1780: 1639: 1119:. But one person insisted on moving it back. Personally I would be just as happy to have it there, but Socceroos seems to be more popular. 827: 221: 172: 2539:. Given that no one has yet AFAICT suggested this configuration, think of it as a compromise solution selected by Google. :-) Regards, 2093:, and the disambiguation page separate — apart from anything else, people working on distant articles are going to be casually linking to 391:

How is Tancred overcoming the bar on moving the page to a redirect? Anyone? If he/she is using sysop powers it seems like an abuse to me.

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It may have been better to have left protection against moves. However, since I'm now more involved in the debate, I won't restore it. --

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Unfortunately, I don't think a poll is feasible. Only those actively involved in this thread would find this page and contribute. Could "

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conventions of Australian English. There appears to be little chance that they will be successful. And a random, unscientific survey of

1776: 1635: 1627: 882: 3125: 3109: 508: 183: 175:) and since neither of them has the arrogance to refer to themselves as the "Australian football team", neither should the Socceroos. 2532: 1407: 898: 886: 562: 370: 691: 235:

news called it football and today I shall be going to see Sydney *FC* play in the A-league run by *Football* Australia. - Tancred

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Coming in late here, so I'm sorry if I rehash old stuff. First off, " national football team" is the standard naming format for

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term. If there were no redirections, this would be a disaster of a name to pick as a title. ViXx 16:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

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represent the dominant form of rugby football in Australia. It is also disingenuous and irrelevant to say that the Australian

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should be replaced by a disambig (as suggested by an outsider) because no one code has a monopoly on the term "football".--

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national team; australian rules, which does not have a national team because the rest of the world are wusses.' Regards,

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call their sports football, and only disambiguate when necessary for dealing with those heathens </tongue-in-cheek: -->

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I changed the disambig to using the {{redirect}} template - the wording makes it clearer why the disambig link is there.

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for the vast majority of Australian English speakers, "football" means a code other than soccer, or the word is ambiguous

2004:-- because that is what more people here call the game, and the Matildas deserve note, too -- and leaving a redirect at 1784: 1449: 845: 461:

was the only name against which no opposition was expressed. I'll happily move the page if another name is settled on.--

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in Australia call it "soccer", because there's half a dozen or so different codes of football (and of course the only

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will be easily sent there via the disambig link at the top of the page - I agree in essence with ViXx. Keeping it at

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Oh, I for one want the article moved. But it's clearly unwise for anyone to do so just yet, until we can agree on

2328:, and change the dismbig notice at the top of the page to use {{redirect|Australia national football team}} - i.e. 1298: 1242:), and many British rugby union and rugby league clubs continue to refer to themselves as "_______ Football Club". 38: 475:

The team is called Socceroos, but the game is called football. Keep it under the football listing. - bato 5/12/05

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football team redirect here given most (if not all) Knowledge links have already been changed to link to there.--

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b) It is still called soccer and not football, because most Australians consider something else to be football.

606: 602: 598: 1317:! PS - I'm in NSW and a member of clubs in football and rugby league... football does not equal rugby league. 1238:

for a majority of native English speakers. Even in the UK, the word soccer is understood, is widely used (see

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Which to alot of people makes a lot of sense. Anyway this debate is over and consensus has been reached.

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This is intended used for page protection, not move protection, but I offer it up anyway. :-) Regards,

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all the time. The disambig page can be linked at the top in the usual way, with text along the lines of "

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as a redirect? I suspect most people that look for the Wallabies will either search for Wallabies or

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as reasons why this page should be called soccer. Note that these teams are run by (respectively) the

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until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.

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consensus (or even attempt to gather such) in the first place, in particular in conjunction with the

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towards Vietnam as the USA was bombing the **** out of it. So I edited the offending comment out.

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as unwieldy as it is if along with the move and disambig page, all the relevant links were dab'ed.

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Correct Australian English is to refer to it as "soccer" or "football (soccer)" or some variation.

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I have pictures of the home and away and will update this site shortly - unless anyone complains?

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I don't see the logic in having a dead end disambig page, when part of the point of disambigs is

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Check the back links. Most people hitting that link will be looking for the soccer. Regards,

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Hmm, seems somebody was naught and did a copy-and-paste move a while back (Tancred, I think).

2387: 2288: 2271:. To address your earlier remarks, the governing body is simply not following common usage in 2239: 2193: 2163: 2044: 1979: 1931: 1854: 1823: 1796: 1759: 1686: 1678: 1379: 1361: 1318: 1247: 1124: 1083: 1009: 960: 870: 857: 788: 638: 614: 396: 382: 342: 314: 195: 1074:(as opposed to games played on horseback). The etymology has nothing to do with kicking. See 1048: 3208: 3180: 3078: 3030: 3005: 2975: 2558: 2478: 2447: 2404: 2403:

become the disambiguation. Would anyone object to me enacting this move (disambig aside)? --

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think of when you say football, I'm terrified it might be 300 million Americans thinking of

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The main use for a disam page is for searching. That's why we already have a disam page for

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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 11#Australia's macho national soccer team

2127:, soccer is the sport's name. Therefore, if we defer to the MoS, this article should be at 3092: 2956: 2920: 2730: 2622: 2540: 986:

in English. "Official" names don't count for much on Knowledge; the real question here is

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Oh, no I have just seen the Khmer rouge controversy on this site so I am going home now.

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until rules started being written down and disambiguation from other codes was needed.

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I second Grant's comment. Also, for the sake of consistency, the page title should be

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soccer team "football" without adding or substituting the qualification of "soccer".

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for a reason. But lets not go there lest we wander into personal attack territory.

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and Tancred rejected that, so you will need to persuade him first. I'm guessing that

1203: 356: 324:? If we're going by common usage, that is what the team is most commonly known as.-- 3107: 2934: 2894: 2873: 2822: 2764: 2716: 2668: 2586: 2427:

that he'll clean up each and every item in Special:Whatlinkshere for that article.

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as the disambig is logical, but if we go with that I'd like to see a promise from

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for whom the word refers to a different game. I'm in favour of moving the page to

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BTW, no-one who follows AFL refers to it as AFL. They all (+/- 1) refer to it as

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I don't find it dreary, fuddle, but on the other hand, I hope this ends soon. --

2696:, as you seem to have claimed), but they do not have anything to do with rugby. 1962: 1294: 736: 634: 138: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

1949:

As I see it: If we follow convention on Knowledge, the article should be title

1054:

a) that is factually incorrect. Both AFL and to a lesser extent Rugby use feet.

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government, the "official" English name for the capital city of the country is

3217: 1112: 369:(the nick that refused to die), since there is no ambiguity about it. I think 111:

Cambodia was not a "communist" state in 1965. It was a monarchy under Shi It

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Since no opposition has been expressed, I am going to move this article to

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should be a disambiguation page with mention of the contested usage of the

893:, which is a redirect to here. I also suggest moving socceroos to either 653:

There is actually a discussion of this going on in The Age at the moment:

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Doh! What an ironic spelling mistake. Put it down to fatigue and alcohol.

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for more details. There are national teams in both Australian rules (see

3116: 2908: 2330:"Australia national football team" redirects here. For other uses, see 971: 2974:

Tancred, it's obvious that the others don't want the article moved. --

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disambig page many months ago. Perhaps that should simply redirect to

2263:

Albinomonkey, there is a national team comprised of Australian rules

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And I would ask that it stay here as a reflection of common usage in

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I don't think that makes any more sense than this page being called

1577:

for is no more important than what someone from Angola might think.

1995:

The thing is, in everyday speech, AFL and at least some rugby fans

1115:. The persent dispute started when I tried to move this article to 3073: 1788: 2477:). Anyone know how to merge page histories? I'll read up on it.-- 1642:. The minority that are looking for either of these but type in 2561: 2481: 2450: 2407: 2176: 2136: 979: 975: 666:

Possible improvements to the article (whatever we're calling it)

305:. I can guarantee that if you asked 100 people at random in the 3120:

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect

503:

I'd like to respond to the comment on consistency, which cites

190:. At least discuss the matter before you move the page again. 25: 735:

VAST majority of the hits are talking about REAL football. --

1837:

As stated previously, I would support any of the following

1472:

is known as in Australia. The article title should concur.

2515:"australian national football team" -rugby soccer 218 hits 1701:

At least discuss the matter before you move the page again

1670:

to think that they have sole rights on the word "football"

1515:

Sorry for long entry, but I am also tired of this debate.

151:

Tancred, football in Australia almost always means either

3220:

probably reckons they're worthy of being our rivals... -

2521:"australian national football team" rugby -soccer 30 hits 2473:

seems to have been this article's original location (see

1402:. If this is accepted, then the issue is what to do with 844:

Australian rules does have a national team of sorts, see

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If you think there is an issue of consistency/style, see

1305:(where there is no national team - that sport is called 2711:

The fate of the "Australia national football team" page

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In my naivete and innocence I imagined that a move to

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Meh. That's typical. :) I'm involved in one dispute (

805:

Australia has four different codes that are known as

1724:

Hmm, you said that better than I could. Well done.

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Prose could use a general tightening-up (as ever). ～

3108:"Australia's macho national soccer team" listed at 2121:"football is the name of the sport in this country" 772:I support a disam page. That should fix confusion. 2917:Australian national football team (disambiguation) 1638:and those looking for the Kangaroos will look for 1628:Australian national football team (Disambiguation) 999:one is whichever one they follow </sarcasm: --> 2332:Australia national football team (disambiguation) 1775:By the way, it is disingenuous to talk about the 1410:: redirect to new title or make disambig page? -- 2503:"australian national rugby league team" 850 hits 1070:The word football originally meant games played 3189:4 games. But your point in solid nevertheless. 2607:"national football team" -rugby soccer 662 hits 2506:"australian national rugby union team" 525 hits 982:, because that's the word most people actually 2616:"national football team" rugby -soccer 55 hits 18:Talk:Australia men's national soccer team 3029:) where we're up to 600K on the talk page. -- 1953:. The reasons given that it should be called 1650:has I think been ruled out as a possibility. 548:. The Australian national team is run by the 8: 2512:"australian national football team" 240 hits 2518:"australia national football team" 145 hits 2509:"australian national soccer team" 420 hits 2316:My suggestion - how about we go to either 1672:, a word that was around 400 years before 1630:reference at the top of the article, with 1156:Australian National Football (Soccer) Team 218:United States women's national soccer team 2318:Australia national football (soccer) team 2077:So, an attempt at not pissing anyone off 1876:Australia national football (soccer) team 1847:Australia national football (soccer) team 1371:Australia national football (soccer) team 1354:Australia national football (soccer) team 1092:Current Article Name is Woefully Informal 3079:You've page-protected the wrong version! 1703:comment directed to Tancred - there's a 505:United States men's national soccer team 180:United States men's national soccer team 2839:redirect; the disambig can be moved to 1030:Wonderfully articulated. Fully agree.-- 3122:Australia's macho national soccer team 147:Soccer is the common name in Australia 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2610:"national rugby league team" 248 hits 2500:Just FYI, a little google searching: 2267:ers, which plays International rules 1622:What is wrong with moving it back to 1109:New Zealand national rugby union team 852:, although this is purely ceremonial. 823:Australian national rugby league team 754:page and we also have a full page on 752:Australian_national_rugby_league_team 7: 2970:I reprotected the article from moves 2913:Australian football (disambiguation) 2613:"national rugby union team" 141 hits 2129:Australia national men's soccer team 2084:Australia men's national soccer team 2002:Australia men's national soccer team 1640:Australia national rugby league team 1175:Australian Wikipedians' Notice Board 828:Australian national rugby union team 210:Australia men's national soccer team 173:Australia national rugby league team 2099:For other codes of football, see... 1636:Australia national rugby union team 222:Canada women's national soccer team 135:Early World Cup Qualifying Attempts 2382:should be the disambiguation page. 24: 2604:"national football team" 792 hits 2533:Australian national football team 1408:Australian national football team 1277:Please at least move the page to 899:Australian national football team 887:Australian national football team 563:San Marino national football team 509:Canada men's national soccer team 433:, even if only for the interim.-- 371:Australian national football team 365:I wouldn't necessarily object to 184:Canada men's national soccer team 3128:. This discussion will occur at 3115: 2761:Australia national football team 2601:"national soccer team" 1630 hits 2421:Australia national football team 2401:Australia national football team 2380:Australia national football team 2326:Australia national football team 2095:Australia national football team 2088:Australia national football team 2006:Australia national football team 1975:Australia national football team 1951:Australia national football team 1872:Australia national football team 1868:Australia national football team 1644:Australia national football team 1624:Australia national football team 1474:Australia national football team 1373:but (I think) we all agree that 1256:A bit of decorum here, please! ～ 801:What about this for a disambig? 513:New Zealand national soccer team 499:have been. - ozzieshane 5/12/05 212:. Of the two, I strongly prefer 188:New Zealand national soccer team 29: 2537:Australian national soccer team 2529:Australian national soccer team 1874:though possibly would consider 1400:Australian national soccer team 928:I agree with this protection.-- 895:Australian national soccer team 891:Australian national soccer team 889:to redirect here instead of to 818:Australian national soccer team 609:)... and several others, found 269:Australian national soccer team 108:I am sorry to be pedantic but. 2471:Australia national soccer team 2397:Australia national soccer team 2349:Australia national soccer team 2322:Australia national soccer team 1955:Australia national soccer team 1843:Australia national soccer team 1752:Australia national soccer team 1632:Australia national soccer team 1491:Australia national soccer team 1356:won't be acceptable either(?) 1350:Australia national soccer team 1279:Australia national soccer team 1117:Australia national soccer team 595:England national football team 214:Australia national soccer team 206:Australia national soccer team 1: 3213:07:02, 17 February 2022 (UTC) 3199:07:00, 17 February 2022 (UTC) 3185:05:49, 17 February 2022 (UTC) 3170:05:42, 17 February 2022 (UTC) 3096:07:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 3061:07:39, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 3036:07:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 3021:11:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 3011:01:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 3000:01:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 2981:20:51, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 2960:11:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC) 2942:10:27, 18 December 2005 (UTC) 2924:06:54, 15 December 2005 (UTC) 2902:04:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC) 2881:04:36, 15 December 2005 (UTC) 2857:01:54, 15 December 2005 (UTC) 2830:23:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2805:12:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2782:12:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2772:12:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2747:12:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2734:11:28, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2724:10:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2701:01:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC) 2676:23:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2655:13:41, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2639:12:09, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2626:11:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2594:10:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2568:07:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2544:07:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2488:03:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2457:03:34, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2437:03:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2414:01:48, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 2391:22:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 2361:15:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 2343:15:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 2292:14:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 2243:14:13, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 2222:14:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 2197:13:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 2183:12:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 2167:12:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 2143:07:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 2115:05:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 2048:03:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 2022:02:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 1983:01:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 1935:12:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 1910:01:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 1883:00:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 1858:23:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1827:12:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 1814:00:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 1800:23:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1763:12:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 1734:01:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 1712:00:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 1690:23:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1655:18:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1617:17:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1603:16:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1587:01:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 1572:17:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1558:16:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1503:01:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 1489:Like I said, I can live with 1485:17:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1462:16:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1434:14:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1419:14:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1383:13:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1365:11:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1322:00:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1311:Football Federation Australia 1270:00:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 1251:23:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC) 1222:22:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC) 1179:WikiProject Australian sports 1107:There are precedents, I mean 906:21:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC) 874:08:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC) 861:02:47, 10 December 2005 (UTC) 839:00:30, 10 December 2005 (UTC) 579:Cyprus national football team 142:04:39, 17 November 2005 (UTC) 3230:17:03, 1 December 2022 (UTC) 2582:(see above) can do that ;-) 1809:Are you addressing me here? 1785:international rules football 1450:Italy national football team 1207:16:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC) 1194:15:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 1163:15:10, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 1150:14:25, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 1128:13:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 1102:12:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 1087:11:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC) 1065:02:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC) 1039:14:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC) 1026:23:48, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 964:23:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 937:17:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 923:16:08, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 846:International rules football 792:10:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 777:09:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 765:08:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 738:08:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 726:06:42, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 706:15:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 692:04:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 665: 661:14:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 642:07:53, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 629:06:30, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 618:06:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 489:02:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 470:01:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 452:01:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 442:01:30, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 425:01:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 410:01:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 400:22:30, 4 December 2005 (UTC) 386:04:14, 3 December 2005 (UTC) 360:03:21, 3 December 2005 (UTC) 346:04:14, 3 December 2005 (UTC) 333:03:19, 3 December 2005 (UTC) 295:01:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 290:fits the wikipedia format.-- 284:02:36, 3 December 2005 (UTC) 259:01:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 245:02:30, 3 December 2005 (UTC) 229:15:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC) 199:11:02, 2 December 2005 (UTC) 169:International rules football 2911:. Perhaps we should merge 2158:Well put, Jiminy and Cyber. 1866:And what would you do with 1787:team (known in 1967 as the 1004:of native English speakers 848:. There is also a separate 3252: 3148:05:18, 11 April 2022 (UTC) 3043:That's nothing. One word: 2329: 2091:redirecting straight there 1779:in this context, when the 1299:Australian Football League 881:I've created the disambig 129:Attempts in 1990 and 1994? 3153:Socceroos-Uruguay rivarly 2891:Australian rules football 2819:Australian rules football 1967:Australian rules football 1469:" national football team" 1444:about, he was just being 1183:Knowledge:Current surveys 756:Australian rules football 153:Australian rules football 105:RE: "communist" Cambodia 3203:Yes. Sorry. Four games. 3110:Redirects for discussion 1674:The Football Association 1212:fedup and rather annoyed 978:; here, it redirects to 3124:and has thus listed it 2399:it is then. I'd rather 1348:I moved the article to 1283:Australian Rugby League 813:, has a national team: 165:football (soccer) names 3081: 2275:, it is attempting to 1425:be made a disambig. -- 1291:Australian Rugby Union 1135:Australian soccer team 133:As far as I can tell, 3077: 2841:football in Australia 2324:, with a redirect at 1230:oldest football clubs 1139:Australia soccer team 714:A possible disam page 557:, and thus should be 271:. Hell, why not even 42:of past discussions. 1076:Talk:football (word) 555:Federation Australia 171:) and rugby league ( 2889:should redirect to 2887:Australian football 2837:Australian football 2815:Australian football 1307:International rules 1303:Australian football 850:All Australian team 748:Australian_football 561:with teams such as 3082: 3027:Price-Anderson Act 2885:And I don't think 2690:"are referring to" 2580:in the first place 2273:Australian English 2125:Australian English 1378:getting tiresome. 1301:somewhat controls 949:Australian English 303:Australian English 1679:football (soccer) 1171:polls may be evil 970:According to the 85: 84: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3243: 3140: 3119: 1666:for soccer fans 1626:and leaving the 811:Australian Rules 809:. Each, except 63: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3251: 3250: 3246: 3245: 3244: 3242: 3241: 3240: 3155: 3134: 3113: 2972: 2713: 2335: 2132:disambiguate.-- 1513: 1214: 1094: 913: 867:football (word) 716: 668: 161:football (word) 149: 131: 90: 59: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3249: 3247: 3239: 3238: 3237: 3236: 3235: 3234: 3233: 3232: 3191:Matilda Maniac 3162:203.185.244.55 3154: 3151: 3126:for discussion 3112: 3106: 3105: 3104: 3103: 3102: 3101: 3100: 3099: 3098: 3072: 3071: 3070: 3069: 3068: 3067: 3066: 3065: 3064: 3063: 2971: 2968: 2967: 2966: 2965: 2964: 2963: 2962: 2947: 2946: 2945: 2944: 2927: 2926: 2870: 2869: 2868: 2867: 2866: 2865: 2864: 2863: 2862: 2861: 2860: 2859: 2791: 2790: 2789: 2788: 2787: 2786: 2785: 2784: 2752: 2751: 2750: 2749: 2737: 2736: 2712: 2709: 2708: 2707: 2706: 2705: 2704: 2703: 2681: 2680: 2679: 2678: 2658: 2657: 2642: 2641: 2631: 2630: 2629: 2628: 2618: 2617: 2614: 2611: 2608: 2605: 2602: 2575: 2574: 2573: 2572: 2571: 2570: 2549: 2548: 2547: 2546: 2524: 2523: 2522: 2519: 2516: 2513: 2510: 2507: 2504: 2495: 2494: 2493: 2492: 2491: 2490: 2462: 2461: 2460: 2459: 2440: 2439: 2417: 2416: 2376: 2375: 2374: 2373: 2372: 2371: 2370: 2369: 2368: 2367: 2366: 2365: 2364: 2363: 2336: 2303: 2302: 2301: 2300: 2299: 2298: 2297: 2296: 2295: 2294: 2252: 2251: 2250: 2249: 2248: 2247: 2246: 2245: 2229: 2228: 2227: 2226: 2225: 2224: 2202: 2201: 2200: 2199: 2186: 2185: 2156: 2155: 2154: 2153: 2152: 2151: 2150: 2149: 2148: 2147: 2146: 2145: 2075: 2057: 2056: 2055: 2054: 2053: 2052: 2051: 2050: 2029: 2028: 2027: 2026: 2025: 2024: 1988: 1987: 1986: 1985: 1944: 1943: 1942: 1941: 1940: 1939: 1938: 1937: 1917: 1916: 1915: 1914: 1913: 1912: 1888: 1887: 1886: 1885: 1861: 1860: 1834: 1833: 1832: 1831: 1830: 1829: 1803: 1802: 1772: 1771: 1770: 1769: 1768: 1767: 1766: 1765: 1741: 1740: 1739: 1738: 1737: 1736: 1717: 1716: 1715: 1714: 1693: 1692: 1620: 1619: 1594: 1593: 1592: 1591: 1590: 1589: 1543:We should not 1540: 1539: 1512: 1509: 1508: 1507: 1506: 1505: 1437: 1436: 1392: 1391: 1390: 1389: 1388: 1387: 1386: 1385: 1341: 1340: 1339: 1338: 1337: 1336: 1327: 1326: 1325: 1324: 1254: 1253: 1234: 1233: 1213: 1210: 1199: 1198: 1197: 1196: 1167: 1166: 1165: 1093: 1090: 1068: 1067: 1058: 1055: 1044: 1043: 1042: 1041: 967: 966: 940: 939: 912: 909: 885:. I've fixed 879: 878: 877: 876: 832: 831: 830: 825: 820: 803: 795: 794: 770: 769: 768: 767: 741: 740: 730: 715: 712: 711: 710: 709: 708: 701:this article. 695: 694: 676: 673: 672:name-dropping? 667: 664: 647: 646: 645: 644: 502: 492: 491: 473: 472: 445: 444: 427: 389: 388: 353: 352: 351: 350: 349: 348: 298: 297: 264: 263: 262: 261: 248: 247: 232: 231: 148: 145: 130: 127: 101: 89: 86: 83: 82: 77: 74: 69: 64: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3248: 3231: 3227: 3223: 3219: 3216: 3215: 3214: 3210: 3206: 3202: 3201: 3200: 3196: 3192: 3188: 3187: 3186: 3182: 3178: 3174: 3173: 3172: 3171: 3167: 3163: 3158: 3152: 3150: 3149: 3145: 3141: 3139: 3138: 3131: 3127: 3123: 3118: 3111: 3097: 3094: 3090: 3089: 3088: 3087: 3086: 3085: 3084: 3083: 3080: 3076: 3062: 3058: 3057: 3052: 3051: 3046: 3042: 3039: 3038: 3037: 3034: 3033: 3028: 3024: 3023: 3022: 3019: 3014: 3013: 3012: 3009: 3008: 3003: 3002: 3001: 2997: 2993: 2989: 2985: 2984: 2983: 2982: 2979: 2978: 2969: 2961: 2958: 2953: 2952: 2951: 2950: 2949: 2948: 2943: 2940: 2936: 2931: 2930: 2929: 2928: 2925: 2922: 2918: 2914: 2910: 2906: 2905: 2904: 2903: 2900: 2896: 2892: 2888: 2883: 2882: 2879: 2875: 2858: 2854: 2853: 2848: 2847: 2842: 2838: 2833: 2832: 2831: 2828: 2824: 2820: 2816: 2812: 2808: 2807: 2806: 2803: 2799: 2798: 2797: 2796: 2795: 2794: 2793: 2792: 2783: 2780: 2775: 2774: 2773: 2770: 2766: 2762: 2758: 2757: 2756: 2755: 2754: 2753: 2748: 2745: 2741: 2740: 2739: 2738: 2735: 2732: 2728: 2727: 2726: 2725: 2722: 2718: 2710: 2702: 2699: 2695: 2691: 2687: 2686: 2685: 2684: 2683: 2682: 2677: 2674: 2670: 2666: 2662: 2661: 2660: 2659: 2656: 2652: 2648: 2644: 2643: 2640: 2637: 2633: 2632: 2627: 2624: 2620: 2619: 2615: 2612: 2609: 2606: 2603: 2600: 2599: 2598: 2597: 2596: 2595: 2592: 2588: 2583: 2581: 2569: 2566: 2563: 2560: 2555: 2554: 2553: 2552: 2551: 2550: 2545: 2542: 2538: 2534: 2530: 2525: 2520: 2517: 2514: 2511: 2508: 2505: 2502: 2501: 2499: 2498: 2497: 2496: 2489: 2486: 2483: 2480: 2476: 2472: 2468: 2467: 2466: 2465: 2464: 2463: 2458: 2455: 2452: 2449: 2444: 2443: 2442: 2441: 2438: 2434: 2430: 2426: 2422: 2419: 2418: 2415: 2412: 2409: 2406: 2402: 2398: 2395: 2394: 2393: 2392: 2389: 2385: 2381: 2362: 2358: 2354: 2350: 2346: 2345: 2344: 2341: 2337: 2333: 2327: 2323: 2319: 2315: 2314: 2313: 2312: 2311: 2310: 2309: 2308: 2307: 2306: 2305: 2304: 2293: 2290: 2286: 2282: 2278: 2274: 2270: 2266: 2262: 2261: 2260: 2259: 2258: 2257: 2256: 2255: 2254: 2253: 2244: 2241: 2237: 2236: 2235: 2234: 2233: 2232: 2231: 2230: 2223: 2220: 2216: 2212: 2208: 2207: 2206: 2205: 2204: 2203: 2198: 2195: 2190: 2189: 2188: 2187: 2184: 2181: 2178: 2175: 2171: 2170: 2169: 2168: 2165: 2161: 2144: 2141: 2138: 2135: 2130: 2126: 2122: 2118: 2117: 2116: 2112: 2111: 2106: 2105: 2100: 2096: 2092: 2089: 2085: 2080: 2076: 2072: 2067: 2066: 2065: 2064: 2063: 2062: 2061: 2060: 2059: 2058: 2049: 2046: 2042: 2037: 2036: 2035: 2034: 2033: 2032: 2031: 2030: 2023: 2019: 2018: 2013: 2012: 2007: 2003: 1998: 1994: 1993: 1992: 1991: 1990: 1989: 1984: 1981: 1976: 1972: 1968: 1964: 1960: 1956: 1952: 1948: 1947: 1946: 1945: 1936: 1933: 1929: 1925: 1924: 1923: 1922: 1921: 1920: 1919: 1918: 1911: 1907: 1903: 1898: 1894: 1893: 1892: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1884: 1881: 1877: 1873: 1869: 1865: 1864: 1863: 1862: 1859: 1856: 1852: 1848: 1844: 1840: 1836: 1835: 1828: 1825: 1821: 1817: 1816: 1815: 1812: 1807: 1806: 1805: 1804: 1801: 1798: 1794: 1790: 1786: 1782: 1778: 1774: 1773: 1764: 1761: 1757: 1753: 1749: 1748: 1747: 1746: 1745: 1744: 1743: 1742: 1735: 1731: 1727: 1723: 1722: 1721: 1720: 1719: 1718: 1713: 1710: 1706: 1705:Template:Move 1702: 1697: 1696: 1695: 1694: 1691: 1688: 1684: 1680: 1675: 1671: 1667: 1663: 1659: 1658: 1657: 1656: 1653: 1649: 1645: 1641: 1637: 1633: 1629: 1625: 1618: 1615: 1611: 1607: 1606: 1605: 1604: 1601: 1600: 1588: 1584: 1580: 1575: 1574: 1573: 1570: 1566: 1561: 1560: 1559: 1555: 1551: 1546: 1542: 1541: 1538: 1534: 1533: 1532: 1528: 1524: 1520: 1516: 1510: 1504: 1500: 1496: 1492: 1488: 1487: 1486: 1483: 1479: 1475: 1470: 1466: 1465: 1464: 1463: 1459: 1455: 1451: 1447: 1442: 1435: 1432: 1428: 1423: 1422: 1421: 1420: 1417: 1413: 1409: 1405: 1401: 1397: 1384: 1381: 1376: 1372: 1369:I don't mind 1368: 1367: 1366: 1363: 1359: 1355: 1351: 1347: 1346: 1345: 1344: 1343: 1342: 1333: 1332: 1331: 1330: 1329: 1328: 1323: 1320: 1316: 1313:controls.... 1312: 1309:)... And the 1308: 1304: 1300: 1296: 1292: 1288: 1284: 1280: 1276: 1275: 1274: 1273: 1272: 1271: 1267: 1266: 1261: 1260: 1252: 1249: 1245: 1241: 1236: 1235: 1232:in the world. 1231: 1226: 1225: 1224: 1223: 1220: 1211: 1209: 1208: 1205: 1195: 1192: 1188: 1184: 1180: 1176: 1172: 1168: 1164: 1161: 1157: 1153: 1152: 1151: 1148: 1144: 1140: 1136: 1131: 1130: 1129: 1126: 1122: 1118: 1114: 1111:redirects to 1110: 1106: 1105: 1104: 1103: 1100: 1091: 1089: 1088: 1085: 1081: 1077: 1073: 1066: 1063: 1059: 1056: 1053: 1052: 1051: 1050: 1040: 1037: 1033: 1029: 1028: 1027: 1023: 1022: 1017: 1016: 1011: 1007: 1003: 998: 994: 989: 985: 981: 977: 973: 969: 968: 965: 962: 958: 954: 950: 946: 945: 944: 938: 935: 931: 927: 926: 925: 924: 921: 920: 910: 908: 907: 904: 900: 896: 892: 888: 884: 875: 872: 868: 864: 863: 862: 859: 855: 851: 847: 843: 842: 841: 840: 837: 829: 826: 824: 821: 819: 816: 815: 814: 812: 808: 802: 799: 793: 790: 786: 781: 780: 779: 778: 775: 766: 763: 762: 757: 753: 749: 745: 744: 743: 742: 739: 733: 732: 731: 728: 727: 724: 723: 713: 707: 704: 699: 698: 697: 696: 693: 689: 688: 683: 682: 677: 674: 670: 669: 663: 662: 659: 656: 651: 643: 640: 636: 632: 631: 630: 627: 622: 621: 620: 619: 616: 612: 608: 605: 604: 600: 596: 592: 589: 588: 584: 580: 576: 573: 572: 568: 564: 560: 556: 553: 552: 547: 546: 542: 538: 535: 534: 530: 526: 523: 522: 518: 517:United States 514: 510: 506: 500: 496: 490: 487: 483: 478: 477: 476: 471: 468: 464: 460: 456: 455: 454: 453: 450: 443: 440: 436: 432: 428: 426: 423: 419: 414: 413: 412: 411: 408: 402: 401: 398: 394: 387: 384: 380: 377:in Australia. 376: 375:word football 372: 368: 364: 363: 362: 361: 358: 347: 344: 340: 336: 335: 334: 331: 327: 323: 318: 317: 316: 312: 308: 304: 300: 299: 296: 293: 288: 287: 286: 285: 282: 278: 274: 270: 260: 257: 252: 251: 250: 249: 246: 243: 238: 237: 236: 230: 227: 223: 219: 215: 211: 207: 203: 202: 201: 200: 197: 193: 189: 185: 181: 176: 174: 170: 166: 162: 158: 154: 146: 144: 143: 140: 136: 128: 126: 123: 119: 116: 114: 109: 106: 103: 99: 96: 93: 87: 81: 78: 75: 73: 70: 68: 65: 62: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 3159: 3156: 3136: 3135: 3114: 3054: 3049: 3040: 3031: 3006: 2987: 2976: 2973: 2919:? Regards, 2884: 2871: 2850: 2845: 2810: 2779:AlbinoMonkey 2714: 2698:AlbinoMonkey 2693: 2689: 2664: 2636:AlbinoMonkey 2584: 2579: 2576: 2535:redirect to 2446:redirects.-- 2425:User:Grant65 2377: 2280: 2276: 2268: 2264: 2240:AlbinoMonkey 2214: 2210: 2194:AlbinoMonkey 2157: 2120: 2108: 2103: 2098: 2090: 2078: 2070: 2045:AlbinoMonkey 2015: 2010: 1996: 1980:AlbinoMonkey 1959:rugby league 1896: 1700: 1669: 1665: 1661: 1621: 1598: 1595: 1544: 1536: 1529: 1525: 1521: 1517: 1514: 1511:Final debate 1468: 1440: 1438: 1393: 1380:AlbinoMonkey 1374: 1319:AlbinoMonkey 1287:rugby league 1263: 1258: 1255: 1215: 1200: 1155: 1095: 1071: 1069: 1045: 1019: 1014: 1005: 996: 992: 987: 983: 952: 941: 918: 914: 901:. Regards, 880: 871:AlbinoMonkey 833: 804: 800: 796: 789:AlbinoMonkey 784: 771: 760: 729: 721: 717: 685: 680: 652: 648: 639:AlbinoMonkey 615:AlbinoMonkey 601: 585: 581:(run by the 569: 565:(run by the 558: 549: 543: 531: 519: 501: 497: 493: 474: 458: 446: 403: 390: 354: 321: 306: 272: 268: 265: 233: 213: 209: 205: 177: 157:rugby league 150: 134: 132: 124: 120: 117: 112: 110: 107: 104: 100: 97: 94: 92:Kit Colours 91: 60: 43: 37: 3093:Ben Aveling 3032:Woohookitty 3007:Woohookitty 2977:Woohookitty 2957:Ben Aveling 2921:Ben Aveling 2731:Ben Aveling 2694:"are about" 2623:Ben Aveling 2541:Ben Aveling 1963:rugby union 1599:Woohookitty 1295:rugby union 1228:one of the 919:Woohookitty 903:Ben Aveling 836:Ben Aveling 761:Woohookitty 722:Woohookitty 591:Association 541:New Zealand 537:Association 226:Dale Arnett 102:Go for it. 88:Re: Colours 36:This is an 3218:Ray Baartz 2996:fuddle me! 2992:fuddlemark 2651:fuddle me! 2647:fuddlemark 2433:fuddle me! 2429:fuddlemark 2357:fuddle me! 2353:fuddlemark 2347:I agree. 2215:Australian 1906:fuddle me! 1902:fuddlemark 1730:fuddle me! 1726:fuddlemark 1583:fuddle me! 1579:fuddlemark 1554:fuddle me! 1550:fuddlemark 1499:fuddle me! 1495:fuddlemark 1467:Actually, 1458:fuddle me! 1454:fuddlemark 1113:All Blacks 993:in general 911:I see that 607:Assocation 593:) and the 575:Federation 567:San Marino 559:consistent 525:Federation 3137:Steel1943 2933:football. 2811:education 2621:Regards, 2531:and that 1839:Socceroos 1781:Kangaroos 1777:Wallabies 1648:Socceroos 1404:Australia 1396:Australia 1375:Socceroos 1293:controls 1285:controls 1240:Soccer AM 1181:and even 1006:worldwide 1002:plurality 972:Ukrainian 869:instead. 834:Regards, 785:Socceroos 658:Shermozle 635:this poll 459:Socceroos 431:Socceroos 367:Socceroos 322:Socceroos 273:Socceroos 80:Archive 5 72:Archive 3 67:Archive 2 61:Archive 1 3222:J man708 2667:soccer? 2378:I think 2269:football 2265:football 2211:football 1971:football 1668:anywhere 1664:arrogant 1335:article. 1315:football 1204:Josquius 807:football 603:Football 597:(run by 587:Football 571:Football 551:Football 529:Canadian 357:Enochlau 3045:Gdańzig 3041:(yawns) 2935:Grant65 2909:Sherrin 2895:Grant65 2874:Grant65 2823:Grant65 2802:Cursive 2765:Grant65 2744:Cursive 2717:Grant65 2669:Grant65 2587:Grant65 2475:history 2384:Grant65 2340:Cursive 2285:Grant65 2160:Grant65 2086:, with 1928:Grant65 1880:Cursive 1851:Grant65 1820:Grant65 1811:Cursive 1793:Grant65 1756:Grant65 1709:Cursive 1683:Grant65 1652:Cursive 1446:WP:BOLD 1358:Grant65 1244:Grant65 1219:Tancred 1121:Grant65 1080:Grant65 1072:on foot 1049:dulberf 957:Grant65 854:Grant65 480:term.-- 449:Tancred 407:Tancred 393:Grant65 379:Grant65 339:Grant65 311:Grant65 292:Tancred 256:Tancred 192:Grant65 39:archive 3205:HiLo48 3177:HiLo48 2277:change 2041:heroin 1969:, not 1897:always 1789:Galahs 1545:solely 1177:, the 1169:While 583:Cyprus 545:Soccer 533:Soccer 527:, the 521:Soccer 307:center 139:Andjam 113:tilted 2988:where 2665:about 1662:it's 988:which 16:< 3226:talk 3209:talk 3195:talk 3181:talk 3166:talk 3157:Hi, 3144:talk 3018:ViXx 2939:Talk 2915:and 2899:Talk 2878:Talk 2827:Talk 2821:(?) 2769:Talk 2721:Talk 2692:not 2673:Talk 2591:Talk 2565:talk 2485:talk 2454:talk 2411:talk 2388:Talk 2289:Talk 2219:Xtra 2180:talk 2164:Talk 2140:talk 1965:and 1932:Talk 1855:Talk 1824:Talk 1797:Talk 1760:Talk 1687:Talk 1614:talk 1569:talk 1482:talk 1431:talk 1416:talk 1362:Talk 1248:Talk 1191:talk 1160:ViXx 1147:talk 1125:Talk 1099:ViXx 1084:Talk 1062:Xtra 1036:talk 1010:this 997:real 980:Kiev 976:Kyiv 961:Talk 934:talk 883:page 858:Talk 774:Xtra 703:ViXx 626:Xtra 611:here 539:and 511:and 486:talk 467:talk 439:talk 422:talk 397:Talk 383:Talk 343:Talk 330:talk 315:Talk 281:talk 275:? -- 242:Xtra 224:. — 196:Talk 186:and 163:and 3047:. ～ 2843:. ～ 2320:or 2281:Age 2101:" ～ 2079:too 2071:too 1845:or 1537:no! 1441:all 1185:.-- 1137:or 984:use 897:or 599:The 577:), 208:or 155:or 3228:) 3211:) 3197:) 3183:) 3168:) 3146:) 3059:. 2998:) 2937:| 2897:| 2893:. 2876:| 2855:. 2825:| 2767:| 2763:. 2719:| 2671:| 2653:) 2589:| 2559:cj 2479:cj 2448:cj 2435:) 2405:cj 2386:| 2359:) 2287:| 2174:cj 2162:| 2134:cj 2113:. 2020:. 1997:do 1961:, 1930:| 1908:) 1853:| 1849:. 1841:, 1822:| 1795:| 1758:| 1732:) 1685:| 1681:. 1612:| 1610:cj 1585:) 1567:| 1565:cj 1556:) 1501:) 1480:| 1478:cj 1460:) 1429:| 1427:cj 1414:| 1412:cj 1360:| 1297:, 1289:, 1268:. 1246:| 1202:-- 1189:| 1187:cj 1145:| 1143:cj 1123:| 1082:| 1078:. 1034:| 1032:cj 1024:. 959:| 932:| 930:cj 916:-- 856:| 719:-- 690:. 613:. 507:, 484:| 482:cj 465:| 463:cj 437:| 435:cj 420:| 418:cj 416:-- 405:-- 395:| 381:| 341:| 328:| 326:cj 313:| 279:| 277:cj 220:, 194:| 182:, 76:→ 3224:( 3207:( 3193:( 3179:( 3164:( 3142:( 3056:K 3053:. 3050:J 2994:( 2852:K 2849:. 2846:J 2649:( 2562:| 2482:| 2451:| 2431:( 2408:| 2355:( 2334:. 2177:| 2137:| 2110:K 2107:. 2104:J 2017:K 2014:. 2011:J 1904:( 1728:( 1581:( 1552:( 1497:( 1456:( 1406:/ 1398:/ 1265:K 1262:. 1259:J 1021:K 1018:. 1015:J 687:K 684:. 681:J 50:.

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