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ruling elite of the USA. If you want to paint him as a Nazi sympathiser, you will really need to provide documentation - not merely repeated citings of the same HBO "documentary". A HBO 'documentary' in and of itself is simply not a legitimate source on which to base so much of the the article. It may be that the HBO documentary indeed makes these allegations - but then we need to see what the source HBO used for making their allegations. And I think that it is telling that none of the allegtations of Nazi sympathy cited here involve the only scholarly study of
Brundage yet published, namely Allen Guttmann's book. Personally I think Avery Brundage's position on the non-political nature of sport is a lot more nuanced than is made out here, and suspect that he actively encouraged athletic participation from the then newly-emergent nations of the "third world", and that if one bothered, one could stand this article on its head.
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includes neutrality. There's no getting around Berlin and Munich when talking about
Brundage, and those damn him in the eyes of many. Those events are presented neutrally and dispassionately, with the arguments on both sides given. You may not like the balance, but it is what seemed to work. As for bulkiness, yes, it is long. Necessarily so, for a man who was in the public eye for sixty years and that for more than one thing. We have to have sections dealing with his art collecting and building career, because if someone goes to the Asian Art Museum and sees Brundage's name all over, he is entitled to wonder why the mean old man of sports gave so many art pieces. We must supply that answer. Same if someone finds out his Chicago building was constructed by Brundage.--
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Ledes do not have to be sourced if they reflect what is sourced in the body of the article. So your tag is ill-advised. If there is a split of opinion, I'm happy to work with you on it, but this article is a FA and went through a featured article process where a consensus of editors found the text to meet the FA criteria, which includes being comprehensive. Thus, there is an existing consensus regarding the article (as I recall, the feeling was I was too kind to
Brundage) and controversial changes should not be made without consensus.--
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on Nazi's and Jews ... basically what I'm saying is that he was an extreme version of the cultural standard at the time in the USA and
Australia. More racist and conservative then the average and was more upset by Black Power salute then the political statement it implied. Assuredly there would be a reference around to support that given everything else here is so well supported.--
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every four years, administering how the team was picked and how it got to the
Olympics. So it would make sense for the AOA president to be AOC president too. Later on, the AOC took over the AOA's functions, so it didn't last long having two Olympic organizations. I am away from home right now and cannot answer your question about when he became AOA president.--
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from the U.S. Olympic team, cast out of the
Olympic Village and given 48 hours to leave the country." There is no mention of losing their medals. (Also, I removed the following sentence about Brundage presiding over the IOC during the era of shamateurism in the Eastern bloc because it was mentioned previously in the article.) --
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2165:. It is not mandatory. As for the princess, I was simply trying to be comprehensive in the lede by taking it up to the time of his death. I suppose the difference between a German princess and a British royal is that the British Royal Family actually rules. One solution would be to omit the sentence entirely.--
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Note also that the guideline you cite has several examples, not all of which follow the format you mention. I would mention that many of our presidential articles establish notability by immediately mentioning that he was the XXth president of the United States. This simply follows that format, and
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If a subject is notable as a sports official, athlete and businessman, the standard opening sentence according to the manual of style would be "Avery
Brundage was an American sports official, athlete and businessman". While his best known office is that as president of the IOC, he was well known as a
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Edited the Mexico City
Olympics section. If I were to base my opinion on the article, I would conclude that the 1968 Olympics was a violent race riot instigated by black athletes on the US Olympic track team and that Brundage was right to punish the athletes. Knowledge does not make these judgements.
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implies that as WWII started in Europe he changed his tune. The guy was definitely racist, and maybe a Nazi, but we seriously need to look at this closer. Currently the claim he is a Nazi rests on an HBO documentary, not the best source at all for this article. So for these reasons I have tagged this
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Brundage was not only a sports official, he is notable in his own right as an athlete, as a businessman, and for his art collecting and benefacting. The MoS is not a straitjacket, and some people do not fit into the provision you cited. Brundage is one. It's not libelous because
Brundage is dead.
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After reading the section on Munich I'm now even more confident in my opinion that there will be a reference to this. He wanted to include
Rhodesia and mentioned that in his 'commemorative' speech for the Israeli victims of the Munich Massacre. The fact that he would mention his support of fascists
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I just came here through the article on Peter Norman, the Australian involved in the Black Power Salute in 1968 and in each article, including the one specific to the salute it says that it was because Norman was against the political use of the Olympics. This doesn't sit right with his overt views
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The article previously stated that Brundage had Tommie Smith and John Carlos' medals taken away. While they were indeed punished and made persona non grata, I have seen no evidence that their medals were taken away. As stated in Sports Illustrated, July 14-21, 2008: "Smith and Carlos were suspended
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Regarding the wording "In retirement, Brundage married a German princess": This is an unnecessarily vague and confusing statement, and doesn't convey any real information. A Knowledge article would never refer to a British royal in such a vague way as "a British princess"; additionally the wording
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This discussion's a bit stale, but I will add: Guttmann gave an interview when the papers about the German embassy thing were publicized. He said it was not a bribe because Brundage didn't need to be bribed to try to bring the US team to Berlin. He was not a Nazi sympathizer, but he did believe
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When he was 85, Brundage remarried to Princess Mariann Charlotte Katharina Stefanie von Reuss, the daughter of Heinrich XXXVII of Reuss, a tiny principality in what by then was the GDR. They had met in the 50s, when she was 19 and Brundage was in his 60s. Brundage spent the last few years of his
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Another issue is the POV and UNDUE attempt to give the impression that his decision to continue the 1972 games has only been "harshly criticized" and even "seen as evidence of anti-Semitism" (an extreme and possibly libelous statement). This is not at all the case; while he may have received some
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The AAU was seen as too dominant, especially by the NCAA. With the 1920 scandal over bringing home the athletes on a troopship, they set up the AOA to be something of an arms length, and to pick the AOC. The AOA was the body which did all the work between Olympics, the AOC was initially set up
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this entire article lacks objectivity. Avery Brundage was definitely guilty of being a man of his era, and is thus politically-incorrect in our eyes today. But he was by no means alone: he merely reflected the currents prevalent in his time & place - which were widespread amongst the entire
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The lead sentence of the women in sports paragraph says he didn't want them to be in sports at all. The next sentence seems to indicate that he liked them as divers and swimmers, but not doing track and field. This should be clarified. Also the Eleanor Holm ban sentence may be unsupported.
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group (an isolationist group that was basically a pro-Nazi solidarity group) for being too PRO-Hitler before the war. It shows how he was instrumental in getting the Olympics to Berlin and how in return his company was given the contract to build the German Embassy in the US. That seems pretty
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I found an August 4, 1980 article in Sports Illustrated that treats Brundage's affair with Lilian Dresden and the resultant two children, Gary Dresden and Avery Dresden, as fact. According to William Johnson, the article's author, Brundage fathered the two boys out of wedlock and acknowledged
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Guttman was unquestionably friendly to Brundage. He is, however, Brundage's only full-length biographer, not counting the hagiography that was done by an East German IOC member in the late 1960s. Brundage is presented neutrally here. The article passed FAC, our most difficult process, which
2039:), a biography should first state the nationality and occupation of the subject in the opening sentence (e.g. "was an American labor leader"). A sentence like "Avery Brundage was the fifth president of the International Olympic Committee" is not in accordance with the manual of style.
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Nazi discussion aside, this article lacks a nuetral POV and looks reads like the work of a biographer (one who liked him and wanted to voice his views), which is unacceptable for Knowledge. Unfortunately, it's also incredibly bulky and in need of overhaul so the task is
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sports official before he became president as well. The opening sentence doesn't need to be exhaustive, and it would be sufficient to mention art collecting and benefacting somewhere below in the lead, given that he is principally known as a sports administrator.
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If we are talking about Glickman and Stoller, that is thoroughly discussed in the article. And he did pay honor, the problem was, he brought in the Rhodesian issue and didn't cancel the games. That's discussed, too. And I did put "anti-Semitism" in the
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The following sentence is especially confusing: "In response, the AAU founded an American Olympic Association as a separate group, although it was still initially dominated by AAU representatives—it then selected the AOC." What exactly does that mean?
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The first part of this section confuses me. What exactly was the AOA, a rival of the AOC or rather some kind of superordinate body? If they were rivals, why would Brundage be president of both the AOA and the AOC? When exactly did he preside the AOA?
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paternity privately, requesting his identity be withheld because of his public personage. As I understand it, Brundage was generally considered to have women all over the world and married much later in life than most men of his generation.
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criticism in Israel and occasionally elsewhere, his decision to continue the games has certainly not been universally condemned, and many believe his decision was the right thing to do. At best, opinion on this issue is divided. --
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We are basically calling this guy a Nazi here, from what I have read it's not clear this was entirely true. In fact, he refuted much of that. So he may have well been pro-Nazi at some point in his life, but
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Many years ago I watched the mini-series "King of the Olympics: The Lives and Loves of Avery Brundage" which depicted Avery as having an illegitimate child from an affair. Anyone know if this was true?
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Thefacts are clear he banned two U.S runners because they were Jewish no other reason, he was proud of belong to a club that banned Jews and he did not honored the murdered Israelis athletes
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I changed the "Bibliography" section to a subsection and "References cited". Bibliography is sometimes used in biographies (although discouraged) as works or publications.
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could confuse American (and other) readers who might think she was a princess of Germany, rather than of the defunct formerly sovereign state of Reuss. --
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The article should have his anti-semtism in the lead that is what Brundage legacy is 1936 in barring Jews and in 72 glossing over the Palestinan terrorism
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I am treating the illegitimate children as true; multiple sources say that Brundage acknowledged and visited them, including Guttmann's bio of Brundage.--
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The information contained in this article about Israel's reaction to Brundage's decision to continue the games directly contradicts the article on the
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He may not have been a Nazi in the sense of being a member of the Nazi Party or the German American Bund, but he clearly agreed with Nazi ideology.
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2137:"has been praised but also harshly criticized" would at least be an improvement, in describing how his decision has been met with mixed reactions.
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There is also a BBC documentary about the Black Power salute that references Brundages ideology, principaly that he was kicked out of the
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damning to me. The documentary is called 'The 1968 Olympics: Black Power Salute" - it might be on the BBC iPlayer if you want to watch.
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I'm Jewish, fella. I also have one Jew, one Nazi, one fellow traveler of the Nazis, and Brundage to my FA credit. Deal with it :). --
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It is highly unusual to use a term such as "anti-Semitic" in the first paragraph of a biographical article. It's not even done in the
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Overall, this problem is rampant, but very difficult to solve due to the bulky nature of the article. Did they just abridge Guttmann?
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mentioning that he was the only American to lead the IOC establishes his nationality. There is considerable discretion as to the
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If you have additional information on sources, it might be helpful to beef up the legacy section, which I've felt could use it.--
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Why did he die in Germany? Did he spend the last years of his life there or did he die while travelling?--
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That's being judgmental. The facts are stated, both 1936 and 1972, the reader can judge for himself.--
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What about if we were to say that his decision "has been praised but also harshly criticized". The
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article. The charges of anti-Semitism are sufficiently mentioned further on in the introduction.
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in which you establish the various things that should be in a lede paragraph. This does that.--
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in a speech on behalf of Jews seems like the actions of a man hell bent on racist views.--
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that politics should be kept out of sports, and thus a boycott was ill-advised.--
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This article appeared on Knowledge's Main Page as Today's featured article on
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article is a slender reed to rest that on, but if you have more sources ...--
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It seems that some are following the IOC lead and discounting anti-semetism.
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life in West Germany, was married in Farmisch and died there in 1975.
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52:Learn to edit
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1104:Project Talk
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399:WikiProjects
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270:May 27, 2012
214:please do so
203:
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19:This is the
1785:—Preceding
1725:nontrivial.
1670:—Preceding
1647:—Preceding
1499:—Preceding
277:Peer review
148:free images
31:not a forum
2238:Categories
2204:References
1628:IvoShandor
1616:Neutrality
1260:discussion
617:California
607:California
602:U.S. state
552:California
342:column on
205:identified
2213:MOS:NOTES
1265:Athletics
1212:Athletics
478:Biography
418:Biography
387:is rated
332:Main Page
320:Main Page
232:, and on
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2215:states:
1981:spinster
1799:contribs
1787:unsigned
1684:contribs
1676:Ptomania
1672:unsigned
1649:unsigned
1513:contribs
1501:unsigned
1443:Swimming
1434:Swimming
1406:Swimming
974:Olympics
965:Olympics
921:Olympics
869:Illinois
860:Illinois
816:Illinois
389:FA-class
301:Promoted
282:Reviewed
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2186:Wehwalt
2167:Wehwalt
2149:Tataral
2111:Wehwalt
2092:Wehwalt
2077:Wehwalt
2045:Tataral
2017:Wehwalt
1949:Wehwalt
1947:lede.--
1916:Wehwalt
1879:Wehwalt
1791:Seanose
1757:Wehwalt
1712:Wehwalt
1549:Wehwalt
1470:on the
1381:on the
1292:on the
1143:on the
1035:History
1001:on the
896:on the
791:on the
764:Chicago
757:or the
755:Chicago
709:Chicago
644:on the
334:in the
260:Process
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
2221:Otr500
2182:manner
2163:WP:IAR
1608:(talk)
1109:Alerts
395:scale.
263:Result
126:Google
1975:disco
1563:Death
376:This
198:is a
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2225:talk
2190:talk
2171:talk
2153:talk
2115:talk
2096:talk
2081:talk
2064:talk
2049:talk
2021:talk
2006:talk
1990:talk
1953:talk
1935:talk
1920:talk
1905:talk
1883:talk
1865:talk
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1538:talk
1509:talk
993:High
467:and
257:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
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1970:...
1462:Low
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1284:Mid
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176:TWL
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