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necessarily from front to back. E.g., it may be from the speaker's left to right. We get "Christmas follows
Thanksgiving" and all of the above-mentioned Chinese words from this metaphor. On the other hand, the ego-centered one explicitly involves the speaker, e.g., "all that is behind us; we must look ahead of us for better ideas." The Chinese words do not (necessarily) involve spacial relations between events and speakers, just between events and events. The Aymara system is ego-centered but has the past in front of the speaker. This is related to the gestural data. The claim, as far as I know, is that very very few languages have an ego-centered future-in-back system of time. (Also, it is possible to have "conflicting" metaphors for time, so one language may have both; especially for Aymara speakers, many of whom are bilingual with Spanish, which has the familiar future-in-front system. Some discussion of this on
1232:...is mostly a statement of fact and can be verified using any Chinese dictionary (the links to Wiktionary for both words are present as well). The part that can be construed as original research would be the part where it says "contrary to this assertion." So essentially, the question is, whether the original assertion is properly stated. If it currently is not being stated properly, then it needs to be fixed. However, if it is indeed the case that the sentence as it is currently written is what the research actually claims, then I do not see why stating verifiable facts about Chinese words that serve as counterexamples to the claim would be original research. —
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time, which in turn descended from that spoken in
Chaucher's time, which in turn came from that spoken in the era of Beowulf (with large admixtures from the Normans and Vikings, among other sources), which in turn came by way of gradual changes from Germanic languages spoken on the Continent, which came from proto-Germanic, which came from proto-Indoeuropean, which came from...no one knows what. The point is that (apart from Pidgins, Creoles, and many sign languages), languages change gradually, and there's no way to assign a date to a particular language's origin.
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the text in the article such that bringing up
Chinese would be irrelevant (or perhaps explain how its claim of uniqueness is different from other languages like Chinese as you have explained above). Do you think you can clean up the current text? I noticed you are a pretty new user here with no article edits so far, but I encourage you to
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To the best of my knowledge, Aymara was declared an official language of
Bolivia recently. Anyway, most speakers live in Bolivia, so the claim that "it is spoken to a much lesser extent in Bolivia" was incorrect. There are some speakers left in Chile, though the potential sources are very vague here.
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Something is wrong somewhere. Your note says that the
Chinese word for front means future, and back means past - this is the conventional way of thinking, and does not contradict the researchers' assertions. The stuff above on the talk page does, but the example in the article actually supports the
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As for how long it has been spoken, that's kind of a nebulous question. All languages descend from earlier languages and (apart from pidgins and creoles) by way of more or less gradual changes. The
English spoken today is descended by way of gradual changes from the English spoken in Shakespeare's
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I'm not necessarily claiming that Aymara is not unique. You obviously know more about this subject than I do. I'm just saying that the wording of the claim as it stands in the article is very misleading because it appears to make a bigger claim than what you have explained. The solution is to fix
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conceptualization, both of which are part of the MOVING EGO metaphor of time. English before/after (and
Chinese 前/後), the claim goes, are not part of the MOVING EGO metaphor, but part of the MOVING TIME metaphor. In fact, historically/archaically "before" means 'in front of', and "after" means 'in
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The citation given for number of speakers is a dead link, and I couldn't track down the data myself. The
Ethnologue counts for ayr and ayc add up to about 2,400,000. Unless anyone has another citation, I suggest changing the number and dropping the "more than 3 million speakers" bit (that's the
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In my opinion, leaving those quotes of
Umberto Eco should be put back in. The article clearly stated that it was his opinion, and did not suggest that his opinion was right. Perhaps if his quotes were put in, along with some sort of rebuttal? I'm not aware of the issue enough to refute Eco's
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is sometimes claimed to be the 'purest' form of the language, though this seems a rather arbitrary favouritism. Of the regional variations, the 200,000 Aymara speakers from the border of Peru to Puno use the form most similar to the Aymara spoken in La Paz. There are also about 90,000 Aymara
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The
Chinese data is actually not a counter-example to the claims made about Aymara. There are two widely-used metaphors for time, one ego-centered and one event-centered. In the latter, events can be ahead of and behind other events in a queue, and this queue moves wrt the speaker, though not
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I put the stuff about umberto Eco and the like back in - they are interestign and should be mentioned. I reworked them so as to make them less POV. No more "Aymara is a perfect language and kicks all the other's asses, w00t !" :) Maybe some rebutal would be nice, I don't know what claims are
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The statement is very definitely false. Akkadian warki "behind, in the future," and probably also in other Semitic languages though I can't think of examples off the top of my head. Note also the etymology of English "before" and "after" (cf. the nautical terms forecastle and aftercastle)
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metaphor, and eventually conclude that it (and thus Chinese, I think) does not work like Aymara. Page 13 deals with previous research that attempts to show Aymara-like systems for other languages. Of course this does not mean that no other system comparable to Aymara
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Sorry if I seemed to get uptight about it; it's mostly because I recently saw a talk on the topic. I updated the article, though I had to add a fair amount of background info that might be better located in a separate article that I probably can't do justice
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edited by Paul W. Drake and Eric Herberg. Page 167 has a chart that says that "Indigineous languages" are not official in Bolivia according to the 1994 Constitution and are official "in Indigenous territories" in Peru according to the 1993 Constitution.
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I'm not sure whether the first sentence was edited into incoherence at some point or if it was trying to express that the language has mutually intelligible varieties. From the last sentence I guessed it was the latter; if I was mistaken please correct
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On Aymara in Argentina, Ethnologue has: "Quite a few have come from Bolivia looking for work. Sugar mill workers". We can thus safely assume that there are no more native Aymara communities in Argentina than there are in New York or Paris.
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gave above and there may indeed be some misunderstanding. However, the text in the article currently fails to convey this sublety and as it stands, is extremely misleading. As for the NOR issue, the single sentence I have added:
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Could anyone provide some examples of the three-value logic system of Aymara? As it is, the section on "Unique Features" is somewhat vague and ambiguous. Concrete examples would make it more objective and a lot more useful.
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I don't know about the other languages listed, but Chinese definitely also uses this "reverse" model. It also uses the word for back to refer to the future and the word for front to refer to the past. For instance:
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contested. Anyway, it's after reading the lecture by Eco that I came over here, so I expect to see some mention of its "three valued logic" feature, even if it's a rebuttal. I've also moved in some stuff from the
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The third and fourth sentences take a long time to get to the simple point: "Two varieties of the language are similar to each other. A third is similar to neither of the others. All are mutually comprehensible."
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I certainly don't know much about Aymara, but it appears from the article that the "earliest record" is that of the Spanish missionaries, which I suppose dates to the 1500s. Before that, it was an unwritten
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back of' just like 前 and 後. In this respect Chinese is parallel to English. I think that the phrase "fearful of what may lie before us" and the word 未來 'future' indicate that both Chinese and English have a
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exist, and such claims should be called to task. In any case the situation is rather complicated and evidently not easily communicated, so I think some mention of this would be worthwhile. --
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Since this has been asking for a site for over two years and hasn't received one, I've removed it. Also, moved the stuff from Eco et al. to a new section, "References in literature."
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No, I said the opposite. The Chinese word for front means past, and back means future. Look at the example above more closely (e.g. three year back = three years later). —
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The second sentence is obviously an argument between editors in the narrative voice of the article, which sucks. I couldn't tell if the La Paz form is a
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I believe that the article by Nunez and Sweetser is quite clear about what conception of time they are talking about. The claim is that the Aymara have a
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Some of the praise given to Aymara should be removed. Aymara is just a linguistic anomaly, just as Spanish and English are. ] 18:57, Sep 26, 2004 (UTC)
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Oh, I see what you mean. I screwed up on the note I made in the article itself. The above examples are correct though. I'll fix the article note. —
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in Peru. While understood by Aymaristas from other regions, the Aymara spoken in Huancané and Moho seems to contain the most regional differences.
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about this, including the quote above, looks to be pulled right out of news articles about this (see the numerous word-for-word similarities to
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It would be helpful (but beyond my abilities) to describe exactly what these regional differences are. Are the regional forms as distinct as
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While the Aymara language is basically the same wherever it is spoken, there are regional differences. The Aymara spoken in
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Thanks, your new additions explain the situation very well. I did a bit of minor copy editing for style and readability. —
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1559:. Can anyone add some example and details to show how Aymara based on this system? And how is it different from the
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https://web.archive.org/web/20040404084337/http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org:80/definition/Aymara-english/
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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I actually just dug up a source. "Achievements of Excluded Goups in the Andes" by Donna Lee Van Cott in
1459:? Are they somewhere in between? Are the differences in accent? Grammar? Vocabulary? All of the above? —
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I was under the impression that the '93 Constitution did away with that. Does anyone have a source? --
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Does anyone know what the earliest record of this language is? How long has it been spoken?--
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I added a note to the article indicating how this might not be as unique as they thought. —
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in language? Without examples, it is very difficult to understand this unique feature.
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Even though this statement appears in the research article, it is simply wrong:
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conceptualization. A word like 後來 'after' is about things that "come behind"
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https://web.archive.org/web/20061006175522/http://www.quechua.org.uk/Sounds/
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https://web.archive.org/web/20071026003850/http://grove.ufl.edu:80/~hardman/
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However, contrary to this assertion, there are other languages like
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Now that I think about it, it should be removed regardless, as per
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State and Society in Conflict: Perspectives on Andeans Crises
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for instance). I'm gonna pull this due to copyvio for now. —
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http://www.illa-a.org/cd/diccionarios/DicAymaraMinEdPeru.pdf
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This was a lot of uninformative and parochial blather:
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In the article it is said that Aymara is based on a
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1561:binary logic
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1391:75.34.182.39
1385:— Preceding
1381:
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1256:other events
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1166:language log
1081:this article
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795:Stephanos1ko
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51:WikiProjects
34:
1725:Sourcecheck
1614:Shimmin Beg
1461:Charles P._
1187:Elmer Clark
1110:Elmer Clark
347:the article
328:Peru portal
1936:Categories
1923:Report bug
1795:Report bug
1593:Suomichris
1511:Funhistory
1496:Descendall
1481:Descendall
905:= in front
773:claims. --
482:Db-copyvio
467:Check for
455:articles (
452:prioritise
1906:this tool
1899:this tool
1778:this tool
1771:this tool
1698:dead link
1654:dead link
1520:language.
787:Flammifer
785:article.
600:Translate
477:, tag as
245:Languages
236:languages
192:Languages
39:is rated
1912:Cheers.—
1784:Cheers.—
1421:Huancané
1387:unsigned
1362:Umofomia
1299:Umofomia
1234:Umofomia
1148:Umofomia
1127:Umofomia
1096:Umofomia
1085:Umofomia
1067:Umofomia
862:= behind
615:Work on
470:copyvios
1818:my edit
1711:checked
1702:tag to
1658:tag to
1640:my edit
1607:Numbers
1528:Mcswell
1329:rikdzin
1295:be bold
1269:rikdzin
1216:Chinese
1207:rikdzin
1170:rikdzin
765:Comment
746:on the
719:Bolivia
710:Bolivia
666:Bolivia
422:history
395:on the
272:on the
167:on the
73:B‑class
41:C-class
1719:failed
1694:Added
1650:Added
1465:(Mirv)
1183:WP:NOR
783:Aymara
775:Bletch
633:Wikify
580:Review
505:Expand
497:Create
446:Assess
47:scale.
1579:kwami
1327:to.--
1265:could
1053:front
998:three
920:three
877:front
432:purge
427:watch
28:This
1715:true
1618:talk
1597:talk
1583:talk
1565:Salt
1532:talk
1429:Puno
1425:Moho
1423:and
1395:talk
1245:and
1168:. --
1018:year
975:back
940:year
897:face
854:face
834:back
617:Lima
449:and
417:edit
387:High
368:Peru
357:and
355:good
342:Peru
297:Peru
264:High
159:High
1880:RfC
1844:to
1752:RfC
1729:).
1717:or
1688:to
1678:to
1668:to
1438:me.
1204:you
738:Top
547:GAN
531:FLC
525:FAC
473:at
457:log
359:1.0
1938::
1893:.
1888:}}
1884:{{
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1756:{{
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508::
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479:{{
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825:後
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145:B
53::
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