1716:. For me, I think both the current infobox and the relevent section in the article should be tweaked. Firstly, I think the sentence beginning: "Over 300 Ottoman soldiers were killed; ninety-seven were buried on the battlefield, and forty wounded were cared for" should be clarified. The wording in the article implies (to me at least) that the 300 figure is known, but from the old infobox information, it seems that it was believed. So, I think the sentence in the Casualties and captures section should be changed to: "British Empire forces believed that over 300 Ottoman soldiers had been killed, although only 97 bodies were recovered from the battlefield and subsequently buried. They also provided care to 40 wounded Ottomans." In regards to the infobox, I would propose changing it from the current: "97 dead, 300 wounded, 1,282 prisoners" to "97–300 killed, at least 40 wounded, 1,242 – 1,282 prisoners". Does anyone object to me making this edit? I'm happy to discuss alternative wording, etc. Regards,
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to work out the comment about
British casualties possibly being as high as 163. Can you please add a citation to this, or clarify it? Additionally, while trying to respond to the question, I found that the infobox doesn't quite match the prose. For the Ottoman casualties, currently the infobox says: "97 dead, 300 wounded, 1,282 prisoners". However, the prose in the Casualties and captures section says "Over 300 Ottoman soldiers were killed; ninty-seven were buried on the battlefield, and forty wounded were cared for". As such, I have put a "clarification needed" tag in the infobox. When you get a chance, can you please check your sources and adjust the infobox how you see fit? Regards,
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a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by
Knowledge editors". I'm not a great fan of this part of our policy, I'll admit, but in terms of making an OR claim, we'll need to point to where there is such interpretation, analysis or synthetic claim, rather than just noting that its a primary source. Many of them are also cited alongside secondary sources in this article to support particular points - I think rather than a general tag, it might be useful to ID which points of use are of particular concern. Hchc2009 (talk) 14:20, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
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But the problem is there and instead of addressing it commenting here and removing the tag is no the way to go. The tag has been replaced I suggest as its nominated for a GA review you let an independent review decide, if they are used as per the reliable sources notice board - consider them reliable
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are verified official documents which are reliable for limited use regarding operations. A similar tag has been added to the Sinai and
Palestine Campaign article where out of 413 citations only 17 are from war diaries. This does not constitute heavy use and the affiliated sources tag must be cut from
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Well I found two publishers for 1938 on World Cat, and as I was asked to provide details of this publication, and two publishers are indicated on World Cat, and as I don't know this source, I erred on the side of prudence and added both publishers. If you know that it was the Vorhut-Verl version that
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Sorry for the delay in getting back to you but for some reason my watchlist is cleverer than me! Its a water tank/container designed to fit on one side of a camel - another one fitted on the other side for balance. There is a photo in Field
Marshall Lord Carver's "The National Army Museum Book of the
1869:
Only the Anzac
Mounted Division war diary has been used in this article; all POV has been cut. War diaries can be are unreliable if you think a regiment will give you a balanced view of a battle involving a brigade, division or corps. But they are the official daily record of each unit. The only war
1765:
I'm not disagreeing that they're primary sources, but they are published primary sources, and there's no outright prohibition on them. I think that the OR requirement we need to judge them against is that "interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to
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I'm not sure why this tag was added, because the information regarding
Chetwode's arrival and his organising of the supplies which made the mounted division more mobile is all contained in the reference. Perhaps its the assumption that this information could not have been known to von Kressenstein.
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I stand corrected. I forgot to add duplicate usage. Only factual information about the operations has been included in this article from just one published war diary. The Anzac
Mounted Division's war diary Appendix 24, which is Chauvel's report on his Division's movements during the operation. This
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article appeared on the main page yesterday. During its time, an editor raised an issue about the
British Empire casualties on the talk page. I have responded to this and I think I have resolved part of the situation (the break down of killed and wounded for the 146 number), however, I was not able
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Anybody like to improve on what stands? "British casualties may have been as high as 163 of 146 known casualties, twelve were killed and 134 were wounded. Five of the killed and seven of the wounded were officers, while seventeen other ranks were killed and 117 wounded." Ned de
Rotelande 10:52, 23
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An important patrol by
Lieutenants Roberts, R. M. Drummond? and W. J. Y . Guilfoyle6 on October 25th en- countered no anti-aircraft fire over El Arish, and discovered signs of diminished strength in the Turkish force there. This observation was confirmed by another reconnaissance report two days
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No, there is no problem with original research or affiliated sources in this article. They have already been assessed as OK and will be reassessed during the current GA review. I have removed the tag because you have not given any credible evidence that there is a problem with the sources in this
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As to the casualties, from memory I revisited this section of the article some weeks ago during preparation for submission for a GA (which the article failed because of an edit war) and carefully edited the casualty section to reflect the sources quoted. From a quick glance at the history of this
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I've just checked the Anzac Mounted Division report and there is no copy violation there. Yes, copied material is direct quotes and should be shown in quotes. But I'm now wondering, you were wrong regarding the Anzac Mounted Division report, how accurate are the Powles so called copy violations?
1116:
At Magdhaba the garrison had been increased from 500 to about 1,400 Ottoman soldiers; there may have been as many as 2,000, consisting of two battalions of the 80th Infantry Regiment (27th Infantry Division, attached to the 3rd Infantry Division for most of 1916). The 2nd Battalion, commanded by
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I appeal to Jim Sweeney to stop trying to create a second edit war using this tag. His first edit war was last time this article was up for a GA review. Then he insisted on changing the name of the Anzac Mounted Division to the ANZAC Mounted Division. The MilHist Project supported Anzac Mounted
1157:
World cat lists 2 publishers in 1938 or whenever it was; Vorhut-Verl, and another publisher which you have cut. I don't know this reference, I have merely added details from the world cat as they appear there. Please reinstate this information, unless you know which publishing house the edition
2339:"However, the battle of attrition on the Somme, coupled with a change of Britain's Prime Minister; David Lloyd George succeeded Herbert Asquith on 7 December, destabilised the status quo sufficiently to bring about a policy reversal" The semicoln is not right here. Re-word.
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No worries at all. It is good to see topics such as this being expanded and improved. I was hoping that there might be some more input in the peer review as I think this article could be taken to at least GA eventually. Anyway, keep up the good work. Regards,
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is the only part of the war diary quoted. There has been no interpretation or analysis made of this report, and it is available to all readers via the link to the Australian War Memorial's War Diaries subsection. This does not constitute an affiliated source.
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Turkish Front 1914-1918 Pan Grand Strategy Series; The Campaigns at Gallipoli, in Mesopotamia and in Palestine" between pages 186 and 187. Its photo No. 60 and shows a camel looking remarkably like the soldier with the brass hat. Thanks for your interest. --
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diary used in this article, is the division's war diary, not a regiment or brigade which might give only a partial view, and it is a reliable source to the extent it has been used in this article. Please cut the affiliated sources tag as its misleading. --
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Like I said world cat only lists one publisher, the one that I have left. Equally there is no requirement to list every publisher for other editions and using "Publisher X or Publisher Y" just looks sloppy and indecisive to me.
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Citations 33, 42, 56E and 64 are the only ones for whole paragraphs or sections of text. They are official documents but they are also primary sources and I think you will find they have been used 18 times in this article. .
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Hi, this is quite an interesting article. I've done a quick review of this article and have the following suggestions (they are mainly related to style and presentation, as I don't know enough about content in this regard):
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I have never claime anything from the AMD was copied. You should know what text you have added from Powles. As for quotes you can only quote what someopne has said, you can not add text copied from a book etc as quotes.
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be careful about how you capitalise the section headings, the Manual of Style prefers that only the first word is capitalised unless it is a proper noun, for instance "Treatment of Casualties" should be "Treatment of
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Once again there was a discussion but no consensus, or even vote. If there is a edit war as you suggest, why don't you wait for an independent review to assess the suitability of the primary/affiliated sources.
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The affiliated sources tag has been cut. These war diaries are sanctioned to be used by Knowledge when no interpretations or analyses are made. No such interpretation or analysis has been made of these sources.
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Pick one - either is fine but not both. We aren't trying to sell second hand books, just list sources. No academic style guide that I know of would accept "Publisher X or Publisher Y". Like I said its sloppy.
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G'day, well spotted. I don't have the sources that the main contributor to the article used. However, my source (Coulthard-Clark) provides 22 killed out of 146. I've tweaked it accordingly. Regards,
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These war diaries have been published for some considerable time and their use is within the guidelines of Knowledge, which prohibits interpretation or analysis. Please see the discussion at
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section heading needs to be changed suggest awards or similar as Battle honours were awarded to all the regiments who took part. and its clear from the quote that he's talking about medals.
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G'day all. I think that at one stage the infobox previously said "97 known dead (reports of 300 dead), 40 known wounded, 1,282 prisoners". The relevent article version being this one:
1941:
This argument has shifted from a supposed problem with original research which has been addressed into a problem with affiliated sources. Neither attack on this article is credible.
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be careful using terms such as "enemy". There are two reasons for this, sometimes it is a bit vague, but also it leads to an article that is written from a non neutral point of view;
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Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division has been used to prevent edit war between ANZAC and Anzac. The source for the name is the Australian War Memorial which uses ANZAC
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Jim Sweeney has repeatedly added this tag but has not given any reason for doing so and I have repeatedly removed it. No other editor has supported Jim Sweeney's action.
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This article has been subject to two assessments. Although the article failed, on neither occasion was the use of the war diary as a source, a reason for the failures. --
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The report used in the Magdhaba article was written by the commanding officer of the division and is used without analysis or interpretation to provide extra details. --
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I noticed that the British was there as well in the article. Shouldn't they be part of the "Associated task forces (nations and regions)" section? If so I can add it.
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Have not been able to find this quote about water in the article. Maybe it was referring to the railways built to support the forward defences of the Suez Canal? --
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Izzet Bey (about 600 men) and the 3rd Battalion, commanded by Rushti Bey, were supported by a dismounted camel company. Two squads from the 80th Machine Gun Company
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be careful about the spacing of the citations, generally I believe that it is preferred that there is no space between the final punctuation mark and the citation;
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I think I have fixed most of the problems. Thanks very much for your interest and support, not to mention all the time you invest. Its really appreciated! :) --
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Hawkeye7 also referenced several war diaries in the FA Battle of Sio and (from memory) several articles which have passed A class reviews, so there's
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don't know where this as I desire has come from. You can not add copy violations back as a quote - your not quoting someone just adding copied text.
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Water. Before the pipeline was in operation, water was hauled on the rattler. However, this was also a major consumer of water, being a steam train.
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Yes, look up the two previous assessments and you will see that the sources were assessed as part of the process when no problems were found.--
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Hill is listed in the Notes section (Citations # 20, 21, 46, 65), but the full bibliographic details are not included in the Reference list;
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Or, maybe its the page number, which is page 3 of Appendix No. 24 22 December 1916 09:10 but shows as page 31 of the online publication. --
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So 4,500 in 3 brigades and 1,500 camels? Were the camels on the same establishment as the mounted brigades? Does '~' indicate about? --
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which was awarded depending on the recipients rank (cross for officers medal for other ranks). Award seems suitable or recognition ?
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20110321175713/https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/war_diaries/first_world_war/subclass.asp?levelID=1338
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From the Reliable Sources noticeboard - consider them reliable for individual experiences, but not for most factual information.
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article it would appear Jim Sweeney has been doing considerable work and it may be that he is the person you need to talk to.--
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Your suggestion of 'awards' is a bit odd given that its a lack of awards and honours that is the reason for the subsection.--
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the Treatment of Casualties subsection of the battle would probably be best if it were incorporated in the Aftermath section;
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AWM4/1/60/10 Anzac Mounted Division War Diary". Canberra: Australian War Memorial. December 1916. is also a primary source (
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Division twice; the second time against Jim Sweeney's second attempt of the Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division. --
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So you discount Wavell, Hill, Bostock, Powles - the last two fought in the Anzac Mounted Division and called it that. --
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Out of 68 citations the Anzac Mounted Division war diary has been quoted 9 times. This hardly constitutes heavy usage.
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be careful with how endashes are used in the article, sometimes they have been used when hyphens are required per
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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If there were no infantry in the battle who were they fighting reading the text in the Ottoman force section -
2421:"General Archibald Murray" "General" should link to "General (United Kingdom)" and it should be "Sir Archibald"
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PS Fighting strength of brigades three quarters of overall strength as one in every four men holding horses. --
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No they are not to be used for factual infomation, see above. Some paragraphs are only cited to the diaries.
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If you have another look at the quote you will see he's talking about mentions in despatches as well.--
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I'm sorry but my point is that I don't know which one is correct as I have never seen the publication.--
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Why replace 3 mounted brigades and 1 camel brigade with ~6,000? In this infobox, what does ~ mean? --
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Yes they are full of POV and unreliable taken by themselves. That why we don't use primary sources.
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the units cover the brigades etc the strength is how many each brigade had around 1,500 so ~6,000.
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I don't know what a "fantass" is; it's not in my dictionary. Is it a piece of military equipment?--
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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this article and the Sinai and Palestine Campaign article where it has also wrongly been added.--
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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This article uses an unpublished war diary, and using them for references is original research.
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However 'Anzac' is widely used in the literature, is concise, accurate and easier to read. --
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Equally the OCLC used in the article links to Vorhut-Verl so lets just use that and move on.
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ps I've just emailed the Museum to see if its possible to get a digital copy onto Knowledge.
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Woodward is cited, but the full bibliographic details are not included in the Reference list;
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Link "Anzac Mounted Division" (I know it is in the lead, but the two should stand separate.)
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Per the Knowledge Reliable sources noticeboard these are not affiliated sources - further
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/war_diaries/first_world_war/subclass.asp?levelID=1338
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Who assessed them as ok can you point to the discussion. The evidence is given above.
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Links edited. Added Murray's title but Chetwode and Chauvel became knights later.--
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Well it seems the commander Major General Chauvel used A & NZ as quoted in the
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What 'main page' did this article appear on? Can you provide a link to it please?
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At the time a MiD was the third level bravery award for British forces, after the
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is referred to then I will happily leave it at one publisher. If not then, not. --
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the images might look better if alternated left and right throughout the article;
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https://web.archive.org/web/20111216202655/http://www.1914-1918.net/britdivs.htm
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later, and there quickly ran round the army the rumour of a coming new advance.
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Thanks, I have included the deleted two sentences in a cquote as you desire. --
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same as above for the works by Wavell, Carver, Cutlack and Pugsley;
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Yes, I see your point. Have changed it to 'Southern Palestine'. --
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My personal approach is to only use them to add extra details ...
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for individual experiences, but not for most factual information.
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the affiliated sources tag has been added until this is resolved.
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no generic problem with using these primary sources in articles.
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talk page for the full discussion. Here is one of those posts -
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the last two paragraphs of the Aftermath section need citations;
2418:"Major General" should link to "Major General (Australia)" here
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The numbers killed do not compute; 5 officers + 17 ORs = 12??
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B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with
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Reviewing. I will check the War Diaries. Have copies here.
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No I have not changed anything to do with casualty totals.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have
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Battle of Magdhaba casualties (moved from rskp talkpage)
952:, e.g. "seventy–seven" should simply be "seventy-seven";
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The point is we should not be using primary sources.
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Or rather, are you suggesting you agree with Anzac?--
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Facts from this article were featured on Knowledge's
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Middle Eastern military history task force articles
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2780:B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
2456:"Lieutenant General Phillip Chetwode" Sir Phillip
815:, which aims to improve Knowledge's coverage of
1666:, in the "On this Day section" on 23 December.
1478:article. So maybe that is a better suggestion.
3111:This message was posted before February 2018.
823:. If you would like to participate, visit the
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2091:Copy violations to Powles have been deleted.
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975:Anyway, I hope these points help. Cheers.
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2483:No, that is not right. Chetwode was a
307:Knowledge:WikiProject Military history
297:. To use this banner, please see the
3091:http://www.1914-1918.net/britdivs.htm
2674:"Lieutenant Colonel Granville" -: -->
989:Yes they are, thank you very much. --
516:, where you can add your name to the
310:Template:WikiProject Military history
7:
2675:"Lieutenant Colonel C. H. Granville"
2606:Any chance of adding geocordinates?
1835:Are you questioning the veracity of
1392:I'm sorry I don't see your point. --
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494:This article is within the scope of
384:European military history task force
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416:Ottoman military history task force
368:British military history task force
223:It is of interest to the following
3208:GA-Class military history articles
2951:Fair representation without bias:
2782:
2501:Sorry, my mistake. Title added. --
1585:How about "Lack of recognition"?--
1047:Yes that is probably fair enough.
875:Need help improving this article?
512:on Knowledge. Join us by visiting
14:
3313:Low-importance Australia articles
3071:. Please take a moment to review
707:Knowledge:WikiProject New Zealand
41:. If you can improve it further,
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2170:Failed verification a Failure
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915:for non-editorial assistance.
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2255:Talk:Battle of Magdhaba/GA2
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1378:) which is another problem.
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3069:Battle of Magdhaba
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3137:source check
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2928:B. Focused:
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2403:Background:
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2304:for criteria
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2237:Instructions
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1220:Anotherclown
1206:Anotherclown
1176:Anotherclown
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965:casualties";
933:
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825:project page
810:
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728:
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504:region, the
495:
288:
225:WikiProjects
190:Good article
189:
156:
134:
115:
96:
49:
47:
43:please do so
31:
30:
26:
2251:transcluded
2156:Jim Sweeney
2122:Jim Sweeney
2093:Jim Sweeney
2049:Jim Sweeney
1991:Jim Sweeney
1962:Jim Sweeney
1922:Jim Sweeney
1902:War Diaries
1857:Jim Sweeney
1837:War Diaries
1823:Jim Sweeney
1794:Jim Sweeney
1780:Jim Sweeney
1740:Jim Sweeney
1701:Jim Sweeney
1573:Jim Sweeney
1504:Jim Sweeney
1480:Jim Sweeney
1428:Jim Sweeney
1380:Jim Sweeney
1347:Jim Sweeney
1305:Jim Sweeney
1277:Jim Sweeney
1120:Jim Sweeney
930:Suggestions
704:New Zealand
691:New Zealand
647:New Zealand
598:copy edited
522:discussions
269:World War I
261:Middle East
3192:Categories
3178:Report bug
2713:verifiable
2671:Aftermath
2623:Done now.
2204:Authorship
2190:GA toolbox
1975:article.--
1376:WP:PRIMARY
1153:Publishers
1077:Miniapolis
602:Miniapolis
163:column on
122:Not listed
37:under the
3159:this tool
3152:this tool
2974:edit wars
2566:Prelude:
2263:Reviewer:
2227:Templates
2218:Reviewing
2183:GA Review
1664:Main Page
1035:Adamdaley
830:Australia
817:Australia
756:Australia
527:Palestine
502:Palestine
458:Palestine
153:Main Page
3167:Cheers.—
2992:contain
2990:Does it
2625:Hawkeye7
2584:fixed --
2544:fixed --
2489:Hawkeye7
2302:WP:WIAGA
2286:Hawkeye7
2276:contribs
2266:Hawkeye7
2232:Criteria
1563:and the
508:and the
257:European
215:GA-class
103:Reviewed
51:reassess
3073:my edit
3035:Overall
2976:, etc:
2945:neutral
2485:baronet
2387:fiction
950:WP:DASH
879:at the
857:on the
731:on the
554:on the
265:Ottoman
253:British
155:in the
81:Process
2994:images
2967:stable
2965:Is it
2942:Is it
2858:Is it
2706:Is it
2389:, and
2379:layout
2309:Is it
221:scale.
179:, and
141:Listed
84:Result
2391:lists
2253:from
2914:talk
2910:Rskp
2826:talk
2822:Rskp
2766:talk
2762:Rskp
2710:and
2694:talk
2690:Rskp
2655:talk
2651:Rskp
2629:talk
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2611:Rskp
2590:talk
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2375:lead
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2009:talk
2005:Rskp
1995:talk
1981:talk
1977:Rskp
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1398:talk
1394:Rskp
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1303:Yes
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1234:Rskp
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1010:talk
1006:Rskp
995:talk
991:Rskp
981:talk
905:help
898:The
819:and
693:and
78:Date
3131:RfC
3099:to
3089:to
2972:No
2840:C.
2719:A.
2371:MoS
2369:B.
849:Low
723:Mid
600:by
546:Low
3194::
3144:.
3139:}}
3135:{{
3037::
3020::
3004::
2969:?
2948:?
2916:)
2862:?
2844::
2828:)
2768:)
2723::
2716:?
2696:)
2657:)
2631:)
2617:)
2592:)
2552:)
2509:)
2495:)
2477:)
2393::
2385:,
2381:,
2377:,
2359:)
2313:?
2298:GA
2292:)
2278:)
2162:)
2143:)
2135:--
2128:)
2114:)
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2011:)
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1807:--
1800:)
1786:)
1769:”
1762:“
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332:/
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247::
175:,
171:,
167:,
54:it
45:.
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993:(
979:(
883:.
861:.
827:.
735:.
558:.
524:.
301:.
227::
183:.
161:"
157:"
56:.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
