Talk:Giorgio da Sebenico/Archive 1

341:"sexual intercourse" seem all to refer to the actual sexual intercourse or subjects related to it whereas the first 50 results for "f...." seem to be mostly a reflection of the inability of some people to express their anger and frustration in a more creative way. Even if you ignore every rational argument for the "sexual intercourse" as the preferred name of the article on this encyclopaedia, Google will, as I interpret these results, support it. Back to our conundrum. As for google results in English for "Juraj Dalmatinac", in the first 200 results, there seem to be only two pages that don't refer directly to the artist himself but rather, it would seem, to a ship/tanker/vessel/whatever with the same name and a primary school in Croatia of the same name. As for Giorgio Orsini, there are actually only 53 results. The rest of the total of 133 results have been identified by Google as duplicate versions of the pages contained within the first 53 results. Based on these 53 results the following can be stated: Giorgio Orsini is not only the artist in question, but also an Italian cinematographer who was active in more than 20 films (roughly a quarter of 53 results refer to him), a reportedly "an experienced glider" from 1960s, a character from a screenplay by Michel J. Duthin "The Holy Blood", a brand or a producer of pipes called Giorgio Orsini etc. In short, as far as I can tell there seems to be a clear preference for "Juraj Dalmatinac" as the name of the article. As for the content of the article itself, a casual glimpse into the history will reveal the user to be credited with most contributions to this obscure article. For some reason I would not rely entirely on the information contained in it. 1679:

language in Ragusa and and it was spoken in Fiume?). Far to any sense of riducolus, Croatian official autorities celebrate the "Days of Frane Petric" in Cres, to celebrate the "father" of Croatian phylosphy. Of course nobody says that, of this 'Croatian' Philosofer, who signed ad Francesco Patrizi, it is not known a single line wrote in Croatian..... Oh.. is is becuase he was "intelligent", and he has choosed a more known language for his books. They forget to say that international language was Latin; thay forget to say that the name 'Frane Petric' appearad the 1st time only in 1980!!!!!! (by V. Filipovic and Zvane Crnja). First it has been called, Frane Patricije-Petric, Franjo Petric, Franje Patricijo, Franjo Petric-Franciscus Patricius, Franjo Petris, Franciskus Patricijus. Before 1920 only Francesco Patrizi: in all the world. Maybe it was because of the Italian Irredentistic propaganda!!!

2076:

toccata a uno dei maggiori pittori del cinquecento, Andrea Meldola, trasformato in Andrija Medulic. A Sebenico ed a Zara vi sono via intitolate a personaggi dal cognome Divinic che, talvolta, si presenta nella variante Difhik. Chi sono costoro? Franjo Divnic-Difnik nasconde Francesco Difnico, ovvero Difnicus nella versione latina. Fu uno storico delle vicende della Dalmazia del suo tempo, amico e parente dello storico di Trau, Giovanni Lucio. La medesima sorte è toccata a Giorgio Difinico, croatizzato in Juraj Divnic-Difnik, nato a Sebenico nel 1450 e spentosi a Zara nel 1530, dopo essere stato Vescovo di Nona. E' stato trasformato in croato, col nome di Petar Divnic-Difiiik anche il poeta Pietro Difhico nato a Sebenico nel 1525, comandante per quindici anni dei reparti cristiani in guerra contro i Turchi.

1023:

claiming that Orsini is just an italian version. I've posted some links where is possible to see that "Orsini" is used by Anglo-saxon, Spanish (and also Germans). Also Britannica uses Orsini... on the other side it seems that Dalmatinac is not used so much outside Croatia. It is possible to improve some particulars of the article... I'm not perfect.... some sources may be verified better. But there is something that you can not change: Dalmatinac is not "more correct" than Orsini... so you are not allowed to substain the present version. I've already answered to the most of your question. You can talk about them again. But in any case DON'T REVERT AGAIN. Change the single lines after a discussion. DON'T TRY TO IMPOSE THAT ORSINI IS .... "the name used in Italy". You know is false. --

114:"Juraj Dalmatinac" is the Croatian translation of "Georgius Dalmaticus", which was the name he used for himself, together with the patronym "Mathei". He never used the last name Orsini; it was his grandson who started using this last name when he received a noble title from V. Orsini, governor of Dalmatia, in 1540 -- 65 years after Juraj's death. You are right in pointing out that the name "Juraj Dalmatinac" wasn't recorded in its Croatian form in the artist's own time, but the name "Giorgio Orsini" wasn't used in his time either. "Giorgio Delmata" would be more correct. 2053:

form of his Latin name, I'd be more than happy for it to be listed in the article, just next to Croatian form of his Latin name. But, let us distinguish Croatian/Italian form of his Latin name (which I find acceptable) and a totally unconnected name which he didn't use (which I find unacceptable). BTW, I'd like to point out that I'll, of course, comply with a consensus of uninvolved (that is non-Italian and non-Croatian) editors. But calling for Italian editors to engage in this dispute is just not constructive and will result in a complete chaos. --

4643:

up", "remove NPOV" and "improove" it decide to take up another hobby and do something that they may hopefully find out they're actually more talented at. I feel amused too that it wasn't until less than two months ago that this supposedly great Italian artist (as some seem almost desparate to convince others) seemed to become worthy enough to deserve his own page in Italian Knowledge. When he finally did get it he had to content himeself with what apparently seems to be the translation of this page. Quite telling and quite unsurprising. --

5228:] page; "Please, keep in mind that, per WP:NC, for the purposes of naming this article the names used for this artist by Latin, Italian, Croatian or Chinese-speaking individuals and authors (of the past, present and future) are irrelevant. Instead, we should consider only the names commonly used in English-language" Trogir is known in English language as Trogir, not Trau:) And that is also its historical name (on Croatian language). And Šibenik was founded by Croat king Petar Krešimir IV:) The same goes for the name of Juraj Dalmatinac. 1593:

authors. I can find a source saying that Dalmaticus' name was Juraj Dalmatinac right away, but I don't use that sources because I know those are just nationalistic sources. The ones that I used are quite neutral because they do not claim that he was named "Juraj Dalmatinac", they just claim that he signed Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus and that his son took the name Orsini. It is just not fair from you comparing this sources to some crazy Croatian sources. --

31: 1616:'Croatian writers in Italian Language' (it is not a joke!), for all the literary men of Dalmatia, who used Italian as primary language. It is claimed that Orthodox Dalmatians were 'Croatian of Orthodox religion': they were convinced to be Serbian by Serbia propaganda... all the non Croatian names are translated, and presented as 'real names' even if they were use for the first time, only 40 years ago. An evident ethnic Italian as 1641:

theached in the school. What about Croatia? In 1969 the historian of literature Andre Jutrovic proclaimed that the writers that in the past wrote in Italian had to be inserted in the national Croatian literature. Today the term "Croatian writer in Italian language" is a rule in Croatian books. After that year an amount of Italian writers of Dalmatia, with a translated name, has entered (translated) into Croatian literature.

2291:- I suggest removing this paragraph due to the fact that there is no controversy at all. All we have is to point at names which this architect used or was known under - during his life. Definitively, it is not 'Juraj Dalmatinac'. To completely understand problem of Dalmazia and the Croatian and the Italian aspiration to that region - read The Habsburg Monarchy 1809-1918 by A, J. P. Taylor, Harper Torchbooks, 1965. 2885:. There is a wast number of references giving the correct (this famous architect) name and a number of references explaining when the 'Juraj Dalmatinac' name was invented and for what purposes. Please, if opposing to this move, make your explanation rational. As per my analysis of the Google search used to 'prove' that the right name is Juraj Dalmatinac due to the 'fact' that this name is in use today 1631:

and every Croatian source claims that? You are just trying to disregard all of Croatian sources because there are few lunatics in Croatia. I could do that with Italian sources too, but I like to edit in good faith. Now, do you intend to cooperate with me so we can find reliable sources and make a NPOV article or are you going to ignore the Croatian sources completely? --

2808:

idea, but Sibenicenis obviously bears resemblance with the Croatian name of the town.". There is also a funny sentence in English which makes no sense at all which I tagged with "fact". I humbly call upon the user who was last to "improove English" to rephrase it and provide it with a reference, preferably one in accordance with Knowledge guidelines. --

1255:- "Giorgio Orsini" string I got 1580 pages of which there were 225 different ones (At the end of the list of different pages google seacch engine says: In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 225 already displayed. If you like, you can repeat the search with the omitted results included.) 5533:

surname almost half a century after his father's death. Again, I couldn't find claims about his nationality, so the reformulated sentence goes: "Croatian sources such as Yugoslav Lexicographical Institute and author Cvito Fisković claim that "Orsini" was never used by the artist and it was adopted by his son, after the death of his father."

3226:

them above say Frederic H Jones (The Concise Dictionary of Architectural and Design History by Frederic H Jones - Architecture - 1955) or Wolfgang Lotz, Ludwig Heinrich Heydenreich, Paul Davies (Architecture in Italy, 1400-1500 by Wolfgang Lotz, Ludwig Heinrich Heydenreich, Paul Davies - History - 1996)??? All the above mentioned used

2731:, and that the article should be called like that (if that's what you like to hear). The methods you use to present your arguments are unacceptable though, and most of the issues stem from that. Your behavior pissed off many editors, even those who are willing to compromise and accept the arguments, like Dijxtra and RedZebra. 2234:

encyclopedic value. It lacks proper citations for a number of claims. The references are poor, and the article reads like a propaganda pamphlet. It is clear, even to those who have no interest in dwelling on this subject, that it falls behind the neutrality standards of Knowledge (the introduction, the

5238:

The claim above about the toponyms is baseless. The toponyms are given as used in the time of life and work of this archtiect. Also, the same names are used in the English literature of that time and now - when referring to the times when Dalmazia was part of the Serenissima. The same does not go for

2818:

I've 'improoved' English, just restoring improvement by Johnbod, so shut up. By the way, I see that you are tottaly ignorant on this subjects, and you are here just to conduct personal attacks. Of course I've deleted an amount of your wrong and unsupported 'improovemts'. Try to discuss ant to support

2613:

whereby some POV statements have been backed by the same written source about the "falsified litterature etc." have done little to bring the article closer to meeting Knowledge's guidelines. The shortcomings which I've listed above continue to exist so there's no need to repeat myself. I will however

2075:

Avete mai letto in un libro croato di storia dell'arte dei capolavori di Giorgio Orsini, scultore ed architetto nato a Zara all'inizio del XV secolo e morto a Sebenico nel 1473? No, quest'uomo non esiste in quei libri, perché il suo nome è stato croatizzato: Juraj Dalmatinac. La medesima sorte è

1936:

Dixy, be carefully to put in mouth word I've never said. My task it's to find a NPOV. This is not possible if you go on to claim that 'Dalamtinac' is the correct name, without to present a valid source. You said he was never use by Dalmaticus! ABout the move without conesun, I was a newbbie: that the

1831:

But let's come to us. According to your theory the name 'Orsini' was assumed later by the son, I've found some tracks (more than one) where this theory is painted as nationalistic bullshit.....the usual nationalistic bullshit "Marko Pilic's style', I'd say. Nothing of surprising! I will look for more

1640:

Menia speaks for his own, and in official contests nobody cares about his ideas. Mirko Pilic' theory was several times reported by the former President of the Croatian Republic, and it is presented in many other official contests such us the touristic adversitments of Korcula. Menia's bullshit is not

1352:

Ancona possesses a group of buildings by an acrhitect with whose name and world I became familiar on the other side of the Adriatic. Giorgio Orsini, of a Zaratine family that claimed descent from the noble Roman house, was the architect of the eastern part, and the upper part of the rest of the Duomo

79:

This is a borderline case. English language, peer-reviewed, high-quality references are needed to substantiate claims in the article. Also the style of the article needs to be improved. There are blatant POV remarks (for example, how does one explain which version of the name is "more correct"). Also

2807:

I've removed the weasel words from the paragraph, clearly identified what every source claims and neutralised the section. I've also changed the Latin to English translation of "...Mathei de Jadra Civis Sibenicenis" into "Mathei from Zara, citizen of Sibenik". Whether Jadra is Zara or Zadar, I've no

2300:

I'd like to contribute much to this article - provided that its correct name is put back (Giorgio Orsini). As it can be seen from my previous discussion, I've mentioned several books and web links about Giorgio Orsini. The 'Juraj Dalmatinac' name is definitively a forgery that shall not be mentioned

2233:

As a disinterested party who has initiated the survey that led to the reinstatement of the original name of the article, I've felt it a duty to keep it on my watchlist and glance at it from time to time. The article is where it used to be: in a sorry state, dull and smacking of bias. It is of little

2125:

I replied to User:GiorgioOrsini, I was blaming him for diosregarding Croatian sources (he said: "here it will be seen the 'validity' of the Croatian 'sources'", which I see as attack on validity of all Croatian sources). And then you say "When you announce that this guy is, pheraps, Croatian and not

2115:

Stop the engine Dixy. I NEVER said that EVERY Croat go around to sperad bullshit. I never said that EVERY Croatian source is bullshit. I just said that bullshit theories are common today in Croatia.; and this is very different. You live there, and you can see the level of nationalism you have there.

1968:

OK, I've read your reply above. You still refuse to accept Croatian sources and refuse to admit that fascists exist in Italy. I just do not see the point of trying to reach an agreement with you. I will try to find some more sources to add to this article next week. I hope you will not remove those.

1841:

Not to take it as a personal attack? You are saying that whole of Croatia is full of bulshit, and you call neo-fascists in Italy an exception. Of course. I do not think that it is possible to have a reasonable argument with you. If you wish to discuss anything with me, you will have to apologise for

1615:

The presence of different ethnicities in historic times is neglected... is some foreigners lived in Croatia, they are presented as Croatians who was forced to think they were foreigners... but in real they were Croatians (even without to know). An example of this POV is the 'fantastic' definition of

5420:

Anyway , what I wanted to say: The only reason why many people from eastern Adriatic coast are known by their Italian names is because their names were hard to pronounce to foreigners. NNames of the places as well:Krk , Hvar . that were hard for Italophones and the italian names were . And majority

5193:

Your comparison is completely wrong. All Brazilian soccer fans know who is Pele, but hardly any knows what are his given and family names - which is not the case with Orsini's names and nickname. Also, your test gives the same weight to some article (using da Sebenico nickname) which might be known

3175:

OK, let us be more rational. Your claim " ... they are books whose texts are fully online." is baseless. These books are not fully online, - online are the title, author(s) name(s), possibly publisher name, and some excerpts (index, preface, copyright). Also, after clicking the book link there will

3016:

My attitude, following Knowledge policy, is to look for the most commonly used name in English. What he called himself, or was called by other contemporaries, is less important. I looked at The "Getty Union List of Artists Names" which is the most reputable source for the correct English name. They

2399:

Reference provided: La letteratura italiana in Dalmazia: una storia falsificata. - Am I right in translating this as: "Italian literature in Dalmatia: a falsified story." - Does this publication meet Knowledge guidelines? The title is quite telling. Irrespective of this, the solution to this should

2178:

unfortunately I know very little about him, and not under that name, but as Giorgio da Sebenico. By the way, near my house in Rome there is a Via Giorgio da Sebenico, and this road lies in the quarter named Villaggio Giuliano, where many refugees from Istria and Dalmatia live since sixty years. The

2029:

It seems to me that the kind of research this debate calls for is, quite honestly, beyond the scope of being settled across the internet, especially as unreliable as it can be, as it would require obtaining numerous historical documents, likely across both countries, and careful analysis by experts

1958:

And, where in article did I state that his real name is Juraj Dalmatinac? I do not have reliable source for that (just as you don't have for Orsini) and therefore I didn't put it into the article. Tell me, where did I put any unreferenced claims into the article, and where did I put statements into

1860:

xoomer.alice.it/histria/storiaecultura/testiedocumenti/articoligiornali/dalmazia.htm. I've repeated, just some of the concept I've find in the article (Oh! but it's a newspaper of the Italian minority!... it's not possible to trust in it!...Isn't it?). I'm afraid you have to ask your apoligies to a

1022:

Dijxtira, you are doing an edit war! In this way you just destroy your reputation of user. I've tried to write a more neutral version. It can be improoved, but you insist to impose a non neutral and surpassed version. You know that Dalmatinac is not the 'real' name, but you impose it as first name,

340:

Actually the Google test, for all its shortcomings, can be a very useful tool if used judiciously. Although personally I don't need Google to make up my mind when faced with "sexual intercourse" vs "f..." dillema I will use the above example in an attempt to prove my point. The first 50 results for

5324:

into "Trivia" and added a bunch of weasel words where you butchered it into "This last name is anyway deprived of bases, being a recent translation of 'Georgius Dalmaticus'", ..."however without any valid historic documents supporting this claim". I can't read Italian except barely, but what I can

3151:

Actually this comparison considerably strengthens my case. These results (amazingly I got exactly the same figures as you for once) are not for "books available at booksellers and libraries" at all, they are books whose texts are fully online. Most of them are out of copyright and have been out of

2781:

You must be kidding about the English! I made a large number of changes and removed the large gaps. You changed one word, & it is still not right. I had to remove the reference to save the page. You can easily restore it if is unbanned. I will revert to the version in good English when i have

2207:

It would be nice to get somehow the photocopies of these three articles i.e. we have find people who have access to this publication. We have definitely to continue with networking and getting more people (knowledgeable about this famous Italian architect) involved in this editorial work. Debating

2105:

And again I have to state that if some Croatian sources are wrong, that doesn't mean that all of Croatian sources are wrong (believe me, I know, I study logic). For instance, Andre Meldola is a pure Italian, I agree. Andrija Medulić is a complete nonsence. But, the fact that some Croats claim that

2052:

I'd like to discreetly point out that there is no ambiguity since there are no relevant sources claiming that his real name was Orsini. Yes, lots of secondary sources call him Orsini because his son took the surname, but no primary sources are available that name him like that. If there is Italian

1630:

As I already stated, this is not good faith. I could say that all of Italian sources are pure bullshit just because Roberto Menia claims some ridiculous things. And, that's what you are saying. "It is claimed that Orthodox Dalmatians were 'Croatian of Orthodox religion'" - are you saying that each

1139:

The main problem is that Dijxtra is imposing Dalmatinac as the normally accepted name, and claims that Orsini is only the Italian version. He has posted no sources for this claim. The international use of the name Orsini has been demonstrated in the past (Britannica) and in the presente (Internet

531:

Then again, if Zadar had Romance population, and if Juraj Dalmatinac's original name was Georgio Orsini... then, why would he use "Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus"? If there were no Slavic people around, why would he call himself like that? Why didn't he call himself Orsini? I'll tell you why: because

5532:

Regarding sentence "Some Croatian authors have furthermore claimed that "Orsini" was never used by the artist and it was adopted by his son, shortly after the death of his father, so that he was a Croat with a Croat name." I quoted two respectable sources which claim that Dalmaticus' son took the

5521:

As is seen from the information on his signatures, he never referred to himself as "Orsini". Except for that, this article is not named "Giorgio Orsini". That is why I will now change his name from "Orsini" to "Dalmaticus" (as that is how he signed himself) on 2 instances that he is referenced as

4642:

Contributing to Knowledge is meant to be a joint effort resulting in good articles and not about pushing one's political agenda and certainly not about bullying anyone with an opposing or sceptical view away from the article. This article will probably have to wait until some anxious to "clean it

3225:

I did not say that all the books are written by historians - I claimed only a historian point of view: collect all possible information about a subject and then deliver your opinion. As to your art historians whose authority you ultimately claimed, I'll ask you a simple question - how do you made

3164:

You quite unjustifiably knock the Getty, and then attempt to do your own exercise on the same lines, without any proper analysis, and just using one Google search! The Getty "preferred name" is indeed the commonest name in English - which is exactly what Knowledge policy says we should use. If an

2703:

That's not what I said, and I don't appreciate your twisting of my words (just like I don't appreciate your "good cop-bad cop" sockpuppetry). If I'd wish to play an advocate, I could say that Italy "didn't exist" at that time just like Croatia "didn't exist" at that time, so neither "Italian" nor

1986:

Giovanni, shall we stop to argue with this man? All he demonstrated here is stubborness and ignorance. I am going to alarm more Italians - editors of the English Knowledge in order to find a way to put things into correct order: the architect real name - Giorgio Orsini, his artist name - Georgius

1473:

No. Google is not a scientific source. According to Google the proper English term for "vagina" is "pussy". The problem is always the same.... Italy does not pay attention to the Dalmatia related questions (despite some periodic and paranoid rumors about a non existent 'irridentism', there are in

1118:

Dalmatia here is acceptable only as a historical notion and with no connection to any Croatia - which even (Croatia) did not exist at all - that time. So, we have to fight these people whose goal is not the truth - rather a primitive political agenda. I removed some nonsense from your revision of

5112:

Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to

3068:

That is not the meaning I was using. "Why not accept ....?" Because Knowledge policy is to use the "most commonly used name in English". Fortunately for us, in the case of artists, the Getty has done all the hard work in establishing what this is, and the result is "Giorgio da Sebenico". As you

2318:

I've no intention of getting involved in a content dispute with either of you because this is hardly an article I wish to dedicate more time to. Though it's in breach of so many of Knowledge guidelines I would have been perfectly content with a POV tag irrespective of the content. The efforts of

1908:

I'll agree to that in few more days if I don't find any reliable sources confirming his real name. For now, please give me 3-4 more days of status quo so I could see if I can find sources that clearly state that the Juraj Matejev was his real name... But, in any case, the article must state that

1592:

OK, this is not fair, you are saying that all of Croatian sources are crazy chauvinist sources? Yes, there are nutcases which claim that half of world are Croats in fact, but that is no reason to say that all Croatian sources are not credible. I cited some quite conservative and neutral Croatian

3107:

A preferred name or "descriptor" is flagged in order to provide a default term for displays. It may also be used by cataloguers who wish to apply ULAN as an "authority," and consistently use a single name to refer to an artist. In ULAN, the "preferred" name is the commonly used name in American

1678:

It is hard to find a single name of Dalmatian personalities, presented with a non Croatian name; no suprising if it is claimed that Italian langues was brought into Dalmatia "becuase of invasion"; maybe in the last time of the 'foreign' invasion of the Republic of Venice (so why it was official

2707:

As I see it, the main problem is that this (and other related) discussion has shifted long ago from a content dispute into personal issues that you have with Croatian editors, to which you contributed much by namecalling, uncalled-for sockpuppetry and using words like "propaganda", "nonsense",

2570:

anyway. Frankly, I don't know or care about all those persons: some of them likely are of Croatian origin, yet others are of mixed ancestry, for some we even can't know for certain. Even those of Croatian origin used (mostly) Latin in their works, as it was the language of prestige. The ethnic

1926:

fails to act in good faith. He moved this article twice without establishing the consensus, so this article had to go through WP:RQM just so we could move it back to it's original name. He also blames whole of Croatian nation for nationalism and refuses to acknowledge any Croatian source while

1851:

Dixy, don't put in my mouth concept that are against my basic trusts. I never said that whole Croatia is full of bullshit. I said there are some problems. Tell me point by point where I am wrong and I will apologise. Don't forget the sources. Meanwhile I will intoduce you my first source: it's

1318:

Please, stop distorting the truth!!! Did not I quote the modern tourist guides (Frommer's Italy 2007, Michelin THE GREEN GUIDE Italy, 6e (THE GREEN GUIDE) by Michelin Staff and Michelin Travel Publications 2000 )using the correct name Giorgio Orsini??? Whatever is related to Italy (books about

4989:

The only real and historically documented name is 'Giorgio Orsini'. Orsini became famous in Sebenico to later move to Ancona. Here he assumed the nickname 'Giorgio da Sebenico'. For this reason in the work about Dalmatia is called 'Giorgio Orsini', whilst, when dealing with Ancona, is called

4196:

2556:

The 'nationalistic disupte' is evident and is present in nearly all the Dalmatian personalities, that today are always presented as Croatian, with Croaticized names (such as Ivan Lupis-Vukic, Frane Petric, Ivan Lucic, etc.) It is not important if it is not know even a single line wrotten in

1090:

Firstly, no one in the world, except Croats uses this fake name given to the famous Italian architect Giorgio Orsini. There is no single document of that time nor later, till maybe the second half of 19th century, where you could read something like 'Juraj Dalmatinac'. The forgery given above

523:

You are quoting a source which says that Dalmatinac was originally from Venice and that he moved to Dalmatia. That is a pure lie since it is an established fact that he was born in Dalmatia (even you agree to that), then educated in Venice (since there was not proper place to be educated in

5352:

by Giacomo Scotti, which is the main source. And yes, there are also some newpapers articles. This articles were inserted just to show that we don't deal with the single opinion of Scotti, but we face a well know problem (not in Croatia, of course). I wonder where you have read about 'evil

5097:

I believe that for this controvertial case referring to someone from the late Middle Age who originated in Venice-controlled Dalmatia, at a time in which names were not used ans understood as they are now, considerations or assumptions based on the sources but made by us editors constitute

2135:

No! What you should read is "if a Croatian source says that this guy, who for centuries has been considered Italian in all the World, is Croatian; I have to control if it is the truth or it is another theory Marko Pilic's style". The resons fot this control are wrotten here (sorry it's in

4860:

FYI - Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria: with Cettigne in Montenegro and the island of Grado - Page 416 by Thomas Graham Jackson - 1887. Contract with Giorgio Orsini for his services as architect of the cathedral of Sebenico, A.D. 1441 (Signed at the bottom of the original document as

2179:

roads there are entitled to famous italians from this territories. In order to get references about him, you can find them under the Volume VIII of the Series edited by the Società dalmata di Storia Patria. That book is dedicated to him. Regards, Alex2006 12:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

2137: 1909:

Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus is a Latin form of Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac, that cannot be removed from the article. I will agree on the compromise Latin name of the article, but it must be clear that it was a Latin form of his Slavic name (since the name was used in Latin text). --

4667:

Again RedZebra conducts personal attacks against a specific user, without to give any kind of valid support to his 'opinions'. As a consequence the value of his vote is negligible. I point out that Knowledge is not a democracy and that all the votes must be supported by valid

4624:, for the purposes of naming this article the names used for this artist by Latin, Italian, Croatian or Chinese-speaking individuals and authors (of the past, present and future) are irrelevant. Instead, we should consider only the names commonly used in English-language 2571:

identity in Venetian republic was fairly irrelevant at those times. But I'm amused with the amount of energy you're spending to "cleaning up Croatian nationalism" by countering it with Italian nationalism, and graffiting the "nationalistic dispute" all over the articles

542:

It is well know that in former times, Latin was the international language. It was a custom to sign with a Latinized name or nickname. Kopernikus signed his books with the name "Nicolaus Coperincus", that does not mean it was his real name: he was acutally named Mikołaj

519:

You changed "originally called" to "also nicknamed". He signed him self on his work with "Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus". Therefore, it isn't his nickname, but that was the way he called himself. If you have a source where he calls himself Orsini, feel free to submit it.

4953:

I don't find this discussion rational anymore. As to the Orsini's first and second names - to sign a very profitable contract using a nick name - hardly could be considered a serious job in the Serenissima of that time. So, he signed it following the ony legal

5525:

I haven't found any relevant sources claiming that Dalmaticus was Croat. I will therefore reformulate sentence "In Croatia, Dalmaticus is much celebrated as the Croat artist Juraj Dalmatinac." as "In Croatia, Dalmaticus is much celebrated under the name Juraj

5149: 2030:

to be able to come to anything near a satisfactory conclusion. I vote for linking the two names and using his Latin name as the article's title while acknowledging the ambiguity about his name/ethnic origins exists. This can be done without imposing a POV.

3160:

ones include several notable and recent art historians like David Rostand (Columbia U Venetian specialist) Evelyn Welch etc, & also Thieme Becker (biggest art biographical dictionary) & several official publications - including some Croatian ones.

1091:

suggests that their 'Dalmatinac' got the Orsini surname after his son 'took surname ...'. Even reading the turist guides - printed in the English - you can clearly see that Giorgio Orsini is not their 'Dalmatinac' nor anybody knows anything about it. See

4715:

The Concise Dictionary of Architectural and Design History - Page 286 by Frederic H Jones - Architecture - 1955 - 344 pages Orsini, Giorgio (da Sebenico): Giorgio appears to have been born at Zara, Dalmatia. His family was a branch of the noble Roman

861:

Yes, we all know that in 1911 Britannica called him Orsini. That doesn't change the fact that he didn't call himself Orsini. And, that is what we are discussing. Also, note that Britannica doesn't say he was from Venice, but that he studied in Venice.

5248:

I've already told to Ceha, to give a look to ANY kind of atlas&maps printed before 1918. I doesn't matter if printed in Spain, UK, Germany, AUSTRIA, HUNGARY, North or South America..... It seems it was useless. When you have time give a look to

1393:

by Thomas Graham Jackson - 1887. On the page 416 there is the complete text of the contract with Giorgio Orsini for his services as architect of the cathedral of Sebenico, A.D. 1441. in Latin where Orsini was mentioned only as Magister Georgius -

5078:

Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria: with Cettigne in Montenegro and the island of Grado - Pag. 389 di Thomas Graham Jackson - 1887 "...concerning the life and works of Giorgio Orsini which are very valuable... His family descent from the Orsini

2575:, and beautiful words like "The slavic name 'Juraj Dalmatinac' was introduced after the death of Orsini", "" when there is in fact none in the real world. If Croats claim a person to be a Croat in a relevant source, record the fact and go on. 2942:

Speaking strictly from the historian prospective, I wonder how it is possible to vote whether is something right or wrong? Is the effective knowledge of the subject - a criterion or not here? As far as I know the history of medieval Italy -

2086: 1100:

At the center of the port stands the Loggia dei Merchanti, constructed in the 15th century Gothic style. This was the merchants' exchange, the work of Dalmatian, giorgio Orsini, and the best monument to Ancona's heyday as a great maritime

4725:

Sturgis' Illustrated Dictionary of Architecture and Building: An Unabridged Reprint of the 1901-2... - Page 254 by Russell Sturgis - Architecture - 1989 - 539 pages GIORGIO DA SEBENICO. (See Ores-ni, Gion-gio.) GIOTTO DI BONDONE; painter

810:

It is very nationalistic and moreover meaningless to translate the artist's (Latinized) signature of the famous Italian architect Giorgio Orsini claiming that he was a Croatian architect. That way you people could only ridicule yourself.

5074:

A Holiday in Umbria: With an Account of Urbino and the Cortegiano of Castiglione - Pag. 36 by Sir Thomas Graham Jackson - 1916 "Giorgio Orsini, of a Zaratine family that claimed descent from the noble Roman house, was the architect of

2126:

Italian, don't be surprise if one began to thik "another one"..."again the same story"." which I read as "if Croatian source says something, don't believe it because they say lies". I don't see any other way of reading this comment. --

691:

I will now revert to the version which doesn't even mention nationalities. Your version says "He was originary from Venice". My version doesn't say where he was from. So I am reverting to the version which doesn't mention his origin.

1119:

this article and also, I want you supporting me in giving the right title to this article - Giorgio Orsini. We could respect their 'Juraj Dalmatinac' just as a note to the reader informing him who calls Orsini - 'Dalmatinac' and why.

1861:

Croatian newspaper! But first, find a source to see where it's wrong. If it's not enough here is a similare one xoomer.alice.it/histria/storiaecultura/testiedocumenti/articoligiornali/artadriatico.htm. Do u need any translation? --

1612:

A problem of Croatian sources, is the growth of pseudo historic teoryes, which show that all present Croatia, was already Croatia in 8th cent., with just some foreign "invasions" that never affected the strong&proud Croatian

5067:

The Republic of Ragusa: An Episode of the Turkish Conquest by Luigi Villari - 1904 - Pag. 343 "He left Ragusa in June, and was succeeded by Giorgio Orsini of Sebenico. The latter, a scion of a branch of the great Roman family of

4111:

The tests below are not accurate nor complete. The search must include "Orsini, Giorgio", too. The counting of the "Giorgio da Sebenico" nick-name occurences is inaccurate, for example. Also, I prefer his personal names over the

4034: 3114:

Getty's work is a work of a librarian - which is far from being complete or representative. I prefer the works of historians. If you, for example, use Google search on books available at booksellers and libraries - you'll get 81

579:

The soruce that say "lies" is wrotten by an expert of the Balacan area. I wrote that the family was originary from Venice, but he was born in Zara. Zara (as it was called in that time) did not had a Slavic pouolation in Orsini

2040:

Thanks for your response - still remains the fact the architect real name - Giorgio Orsini, his artist name - Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus, forgery coming from Croatia (second half od 19th century) - Juraj Dalmatinac. Prove me

658:

I didn't claim he was a Croat. My version of the article doesn't say that, please read it carefully. It says that he was called "Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus". Who mentioned Croats? I didn't. Please do not falsely accuse me.

2488:

All the rest is of far less importance and, the first thing is to give to this article the correct title - 'Giorgio Orsini'. Respecting a man, his work and life, means - at the first place - to respect ie. to use his real

5478:

is respectable lexicographical institution, and Cvito Fisković is uttermost Yugoslav expert on Juraj Dalamatinac. I am not claiming that what those two sources say is absolute truth, what I'm claiming is: those sources

593:

Excuse me? No Slavic population? Andrija Budčić and Grubiš Šlafčić who participated in building of the cathedral were Italians? So, Slavs lived all around the city, but in the city there were no Slavs? Are you serious?

103:

I forgot to point out that I don't consider Dalmatia an "italian land", it's Croatia. But in the past there was an Italian presence (in the language, in the culture, in the ethnicity) that is not possible to neglect.

2269:

It's not on you to see improvements. It's on you to point out where are the POV sentences. All the article is referencied, if you see something wrong, try to discuss about it. I suggest to read the talk page first.

3860:) to reflect the standard RM format, and copied the relevant sources from the previous discussion, to make this move request a self-sufficient one. Feel free to revert this changes (or to ask me to revert them :-) 1703:

I discoverd this source a long time ago. It's just a single one, 'cause it's a scientific source is correct. The greater part of Croatian sources ssy 'Ivan Vuckic Lupis'. Even English Wiki, before my correctiond.--

5022:). 'Giorgio Orsini' and 'Giorgio da Sebenico' have about the some relevance in English, so I think is better to leave the 'real' name, and to leave the original name of the article. Another source is the sentence 5018:

Giorgio da Sebenico, means 'George coming from Sebenico', like 'Leonardo da Vinci' (who was born in Vinci). Orsini was in Ancona, after working in Sebenico, so the statment is obvious (anyway is here the source

2116:

Pilic, Petric, Vukic, Medulic, Biundic... who is the next? When you announce that this guy is, pheraps, Croatian and not Italian, don't be surprise if one began to thik "another one"..."again the same story".--

1144:

Dijxtra claims that both the names went in use after the death; if true (I'll write about this) there is no reason to consider Dalmatinac more correct and accepted. If true the main name should be 'Dalmaticus'.

560:. But the thing is that he signed "Nicolaus Copernicus", and his surname might be "Kopernik" or "Koppernigk". Juraj signed "Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus" because his surname was "Orsini"? You see logic there? -- 5270:

What have I done? Just look at the date of our conversation and when I asked this question. It is basicly the same question which I asked you, with exception that Giorgio answered me with a month and a half

4969:

Venetian law required "real, true" names to be used when signing legal documents such as contracts, therefore his signing G.O. guarantees that this was his "real, true" name... and that G.da S. was only his

2708:"forgeries", "false claims", "lacks basic civility to be considered as a fact at all" in edit summaries and talk, unilateral page moves, and dismissing Croatian sources in the articles with weasel words and 1083:

Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac is Croatian form of his name which entered widespread usage after his death. His son took surname Orsini after death of his father, so Juraj Dalmatinac is known as Giorgio Orsini in

5060:

Well, until somebody demonstrates the contrary, "Orsini" shall be considered the only real and true name. As a matter of fact, there is no reason to argue that this name was false or was not used by the

1041:

Why don't you answer to my questions in "Before reverting read this" paragraph? That's all I ask of you. You are reverting without discussion, and I am reverting after discussing. The difference is big.

5113:

advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article.

94:

I beg to provide a valide source, to proove that the name "Juraj Dalmatinac" was used during Orsini-Dalmatinac time. I will insert a reference about the croatization of dalmatian people of the past. --

3920:— The last move request (Dec 26,2006) was from Juraj Dalmatinac → Giorgio Orsini, which has now suceeded, after 4:0 votes cast in the survey. During the discussion above, I gave reasons why I thought 2332:

May you tell me which kind of 'efforts' have I done? What is clear for you? I've just done some correction on some rough historic errors. Please list the rules I'd break according to you. Thank you.--

1882:

I see that the name is a problem for some. Why not just name the article by his given latin name he himself used and then link it with 'Juraj Dalmatinac' and 'Giorgo Orisini' to redirect? Opinions? --

1140:

links, and travel books): has been shown that Orsini is still used by French, Spanish and Anglosaxons. Dijxtra does not show the same for the slavic version (maybe it has been recently improoved).

5164:

Giovanni, I have absolutely no problem with "Giorgio Orsini" being his real name, but that is irrelevant to the issue of his most commonly used name in English, which is what we must decide! See

4231:

If his son claimed that their family name was Orsini (as per Croatian sources) and if he signed a contract as Giorgio Orsini - I do not see any reason for doubting what were his personal names.--

2323:, however, have once again made it clear that this approach is a futile one. I will therefore clearly mark every single POV sentence and label every section with an appropriate tag. Well done. -- 5498:

This man is called Juraj Dalmatinac in Croatia. This fact is not mentioned in the introduction or in the infobox. I think it should be mentioned. So I returned that mention back to the article.

4826:

As far as I know, the "real name" of this architect remains a mystery: we simply don't know how his mother called him, as is the case with so many other figures from this period. In that sense

2674:

marks people who lived in the medieval Italy which inculdes Papal state, Venitian and Genoese Republics. This adjective is widely accepted historic notion and it is used here that way. Also,

5071:

A Yacht in Mediterranean Seas - Pag. by Isabel Anderson - 1930 "Giorgio Orsini, of the princely Roman family of that name, was the architect of the latter period, in the fifteenth century."

4882:

Thanks for citing the book, GiorgioOrsini. But apparently, this it's just your personal interpretation of a primary source, i.e. your understanding that the architect signing a document as

4685:

The tests below are not accurate nor complete. The search must include "Orsini, Giorgio", too. The counting of the "Giorgio da Sebenico" nick-name occurences is inaccurate, for example. --

743:

Finnaly it seems that "Orsini" is common in German and English literature. Of course I've restored the my neutral version. Feel free to change it, but without to impose nationalist claims--

5194:

to only a few people and to the Michellin tourist guide (using Orsini name) printed in millions of examples and in everyday's use by millions of tourists visiting Italy year after year.--

1474:

Croatia.). On the other side the interest about Dalmatia history is large in Croatia; that affects the 'Google test'. A proper source should be a scientific art history book, not Google.

5540:, "widely accepted English name" should be used. I am there fore replacing Italian names (Sebenico, Zara, Spalato) with widely accepted English names, those that are used on Knowledge ( 626:

Oh, you don't? Then, why did Dalmatinac sign as "Mathaei"? Out of fun? Do you sign as "Giove" because your surname is "Mirković"? Or you sign "Giove" because your surname is "Giove"? --

5329:

even pertinent to the subject. Even if you have "won" the name battle, that doesn't give you a blank license, and the wording of the section as it currently is barely would pass in a "

1650:

How many Croatian books have you read? I finished my schooling in Croatia and I have never heard of "Croatian writer in Italian language". In which Croatian school did you go, man? --

5376:" - I would qualify all Croatian 'references' that way - due to the lack of any primary references that might be used in order to support their claims about the Orsini's 'Croatdom'.-- 2526:". Well, which one? The one titled "La letteratura italiana in Dalmazia: una storia falsificata."? For the start, that name can't be "just a forgery" because it apparently wasn't his 5431:

The names Zara , Sebenico , Dalmazia were in use and are still in use. However, Zadar, Šibenik, Dalmacija are in use today and that fact is recognised when writing this biography.--

1270:

Over 90% of the "Juraj Dalmatinac" pages are tourist/holiday/resort destination ads mainly of the Croatian towns, tourist agencies (foreign or Croatian) selling these destinations.

5394:

There are no any Zara , Sebenico , Dalmazia. As well as there no Hong Kong, Peking etc. There are only Zadar, Šibenik, Dalmacija (part of Croatia-Hrvatska), Xiang Gang, Beijing. --

3937:

I do not propose changing the current lead sentence of the article, just the article. Apologies to all for putting everyone through it again, but let's get it completely right! -

5512:, where Orsini is introduced as 'Juraj Dalmatinac'". This gives "Orsini" greater credibility over "Dalmatinac" - which is disputed, so I will remove the second part of this note. 1451:

Well, don't you agree that travel books are not the best source to solve a heated naming controversy? I think that some present art-history books would be a better source... --

1051:

I've already answered above, and some other questions are surpassed, beacause I've deleted some debated sentences. I've already to tell me if you still have some doubts. --

168:– The person has only one name, not both simultaneously. Different language versions of the name should all be listed in the introduction of the article in accordance with 3482: 1728:

I could go on for a long time!!! You will never find the same behaviour in Italy! Menia is an excpetion, not the rule! We have closed the door to Fascism a long time ago!

1142:

My 'irridentisc'(Wanderer by serious!!) version of the article puts both the names on the same level; furthermore I've added a controversial point, showing both the POV.

2247:

I've restored the tag as no improvement whatsoever has been achieved in relation to the objections raised above. If for any reason this isn't self-evident, please check

2959:

After having read the elements brought by BarryMar and Johnbod, I support this renaming as better than the present solution; but I'm open also to Giorgio da Sebenico.--

2666:

name - done by some Croat more than three hundred years after the Orsini's death). Also, claiming that Orsini was an Italian Renaissance painter has nothing to do with

756:

As I have explained above, my version has no mention to either "Venetian" or "Croatian". Your does. So I will now revert to version without nationalist implications. --

184:: the suggested name is the original name of the article. Its current dual name has been assigned to it on August 26 2006. See history of the article for more details 4311: 3457: 2218:

Somebody will say they are Italian sources, and Orsini is just the Italian name. It shall be pointed out that Dalmatinac was never used in international literature.--

5537: 4341: 5141:

Anyway there is a number of documents that demonstrate this fact: in the present case we have 5 reliable sources that claim that Orsini was a member of the famous

3472: 2557:

Croatian by this people, and the Croatian names are just later traslations.... they were born in the present day Croatia, and this is enough to make them Croats.--

1725:

Why 'Francesco Biondi, that in XVI cent. was one of the father of Italian romance, has recently became Ivan Franjo Biondi-Biundovic, presented as Croatian writer?

5501:

The way this man signed his name was "Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus". He never signed himself by any other name, so I reckon this name should too be in the infobox.

3100:"preferred" following a name indicates that the name is the so-called "preferred name" for the record. It is typically the first in a list of names in the record. 4326: 3442: 1927:

claiming Italy to be fascism-free. I think that if Knowledge is to achieve neutral point of view, it should not take actions because people like this want it. --

1809:

I never said that. I just say there is a problem of nationalim. I've learend this from a Croatian newspaper, not from a stupid Menia. I will talk about this. --

1146:

The name Orsini is rather old, Dijxtra himseld says.... on the other side Dijxtra does not tell when the name Dalmatinac has been mentioned for the first time.

3270:

And, finally, about Getty. Getty librarian claims: the "preferred" name is the commonly used name in American English. OK, then the same librarian references:

2971:

though I do not support nominators reasoning. It doesn't matter what is a translation of what; what matters is better known in English as Giorgio Orsini.

1583:

I ought to point out that, according to single recent sources, I could believe that Venitian Marco Polo, is a Croatian named Marko Pilich (see next point).--

2387:

The Italian name 'Giorgio Orsini' was always in use even in international works. - weasel words again. This cannot be referrenced and needs to be rephrased.

5370:

Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria, with Cettigne in Montenegro and the Island of Grado by Sir Thomas Graham Jackson, published in 1887 by Clarendon press.

3297:

WCP - Witt Checklist of Painters ca. 1200-1976 (A checklist of painters c.1200-1994: represented in the Witt Library, Courtauld Institute of Art, London.)

2384:

the architect is alternatively presented as the Italian 'Giorgio Orsini', or the Croat 'Juraj Dalmantinac'. - a reference needed. Again original research.

4965:

I'm not sure if I understood you well, both regarding "the original document" and your reasoning. Let's see if I got it right; this is what I understood:

2753:

I removed this because the page would not save with it in "banned link" apparently- I've no idea what it is about- you can find the place in the history:

5421:

of west world knows lots of things under Italian names. But that really has no any connection. Xiang Gang will be always Xiang Gang. Never Hong Kong.--

1201:

If I did, then the next step is to provide references. I provided references for the fact that his son took the surname Orsini. I'm still looking for a

5372:

My advice to the fighters for the Orsini's 'Croatian' names - not to discuss anymore - rather to provide serious and verifiable references. As to the "

1746:

Where are those neo-fascist? How much are they? Have you a number We are not reponsble of the popolarity of our Menias beetwen the Croatian Menias. --

1289:

You say "tourist agencies (foreign or Croatian)", and then you say "Croatian tourism industry". Wouldn't that mean "international tourism industry"? --

1387:

Giove, do not waste your time on this guy. It makes no sense to talk to him. He keeps ranting the same nonsense over and over. I found an older book :

1205:

source that claims his name was Juraj Matejev. What you now have to do is submit a reliable source that claims that Dalmatinac used surname Orsini. --

2479:- Far from true. You are very interested in - which resulted in replacing the architect's real name (Giorgio Orsini) by the fake ('Juraj Dalmatinac') 2463:

he signed: "hoc opus cuvarum fecit magister Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus" - if this is true, how can there be any debate as to the name of the artist?

2415:

he signed: "hoc opus cuvarum fecit magister Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus" - if this is true, how can there be any debate as to the name of the artist?

4293: 2008:

Shall you immediately stop this sock-puppeting, personal attacks and threats of votecasting? There are other ways to put things into correct order.

1722:

Why the main church of a former ethnic Italian town as ROvinj/Rovigno, built by a Venitian archiech is presented as a 'masterpiece of Croatian art'?

2393:

That not the case of 'Giorgio da Sebenico', that was in use during the life of the man. - obviously a reference needed. This is original research.

3928:

above. Neither of us voted in the last survey. Opinions expressed passim on this further move by the 4 who did vote are: one for, one against.

1191:

I say that from his signature "Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus" it is obvious that he was named Juraj : Dalmatinac, you say that he was named Orsini

4930:

I freely admit that I have no idea whatsoever of the legislative and administrative processes of the Venetian Republic, nor of its archives :-)

2435:

is trying to give us orders - even without reading the discussion above or finding {fact}s ie. learning about the subject he tried to discuss.

2390:

according to a recent theory published in Croatia - another weasel term (a recent theory) - if so what did they claim before? Reference needed.

1111:

Loggia di Mercanti - this 15C hall for merchants' meetings has a Venetian Gothic facade which was the work of another Dalmatian, Giorgio Orsini

3934:

is the mostly commonly used name in English, and is used by the preponderance of high-quality reference works. See the full discussion above.

4083:

The same thing can be said of Massacio. What we want is the name under which he is now known in English, for the convenience of our readers.

2877:— As I explained it earlier, personal names of any man are not 'translatable' - as it was done here by translating the Orsini's artist name 5316:

Giovanni, the "discussion" you refer to in your edit summary is above, it settled the page name, and the last post on this talk page was on

2066:

Ranting the same nonsense again and again??? For those who can read Italian - here it will be seen the 'validity' of the Croatian 'sources':

1442:

No, my links show the present and the past. There are also some recent travel books that shows the 'Orsini' is still used in French and Uk.

4264: 3018: 2287:. If something is not right, deficient, or for one or other reason shall be changed - it shall be clearly named and elaborated. As to the 2728: 1483:

Well, the Knowledge naming guidelines say that we should use the most common name. And Google shows the most common name, doesn't it? --

3108:

English. Other languages may also be flagged. For example, the preferred Italian spelling could be marked with a "P," as in "Italian-P."

986:

Neither Orsini, nor Dalmatinac... but a Latin nickname as "original" name. Every artist in that time had a latin signature!!!!!!!!!!!--

724:

What nationalistic claims? You are the one which says he was Venetian. I never said that he was a Croat. So, who is nationalist here? --

4914:

No, it's not my personal interpretation. The original document exists in some Venitian Republic state archives. Claiming this way that

1531:

Venitian Republic had an accurate burocracy. Because 'Dalmaticus' had officials works, there must be a document showing his real name.

5475: 5471: 5325:

conclude are the (apparently chery-picked) debates accross newspapers on how evil Croatians steal Italian history. I don't see how is

2756: 2542:

attacking the people who pinpoint that the article sucks ("is trying to give us orders", "far from true, you're very interested in").

2522:

whereby you try to dismiss the arguments of Croatian sources. "There are many references confirming that 'Juraj Dalmatinac' is just a

2460: 2412: 827: 678:

I've changed the article into a NPOV version, that left the question of nationality undeterimined, presenting both the points of wiew.

293:. It's ludicrous to use Google hits (below) in cases of obscure historical figures where there are so few overall online references ( 66: 5487:. Those are reliable, relevant and respectable sources. Although I do believe those sources should be fully trusted, I am aware that 5467:

took total control of this article. I will now try to add information which he removed and will comment here on the stuff I changed.

3862:

After this third RM in as many months (!) is over, it would be a good time to archive this talk page and start anew. - Best regards,

464:

I removed this part as Juraj was from Dalmatia, not Venice. Every credible source says that he was from Dalmatia, not from Venice. --

4932:

I assume that by "the original document" you are refering to the actual contract mentioned by Thomas Graham Jackson. Is this so ? -

4577: 4534: 4507: 4480: 4458: 4425: 4383: 3728: 3701: 3674: 3640: 3613: 3591: 3558: 3521: 2724: 2381:

About the name there is a nationalistic dispute. - this needs to be supported with a reference. Otherwise this is original research.

3424: 2566:

The "nationalistic dispute" is "evident and present" only in the Knowledge articles and talk pages and partisan literature, and we

2445:

About the name there is a nationalistic dispute. - this needs to be supported with a reference. Otherwise this is original research

1852:

Croatian newspaper (even if wrotten in Italian). It's an article appeard on the Rijeka's newspaper 'La Voce del Popolo', signed by

5518:

I added few sentences about his signatures that were removed from the article for some reason. The sentences are fully referenced.

645:

Until 1945 the city kept his romance/italian majority. I beg you to provide some sources for your claims of integral "croaticity".

2947:

are the arcitect's personal names. If the decision is going to be based on the votes only - please, take my vote off the count.--

2888:- it is clear that this use comes mainly from Croatia and from the tourist industry selling the tourist destinations in Croatia. 306: 4074:

He was very well known under his real name (Giorgio Orsini) during his life. There is five references given confirming that.--

3138:, etc. names - is not rational from the historic point of view and is invented by you here - in order to support your own claim. 2631: 1070:

Main problem with this man (Dijxtra) and his supporters is that they use forgeries and pseudo-history coming form Croatia like:

359:. The double name in the title is totally inacceptable; make it one way or another, then investigate which one is more common. 4767:: it was a good-faith mistake, for which I apologize. I have corrected the number in the count, making it 14 books in English. 4282: 3403: 1347:

A Holiday in Umbria: With an Account of Urbino and the Cortegiano of Castiglione by Sir Thomas Graham Jackson - 1917 - Page 36

777:

Finally, in Dalmatia, the native country of architects as important as Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico and Luciano Laurana ... from

556:

Matter of Kopernik's name is a complicated one. He might have been names Kopernik, but could be named Koppernigk. Please read

5043:

For the purposes of Knowledge, this concise dictionary hardly seems to be a good source for such a dramatic claim (i.e. that

4793:

Septentrionalis mentioned another mistake on my part. The Google Print count has been modified in accordance to his comment (

2623: 2252: 5239:'Juraj Dalmatinac' due to the fact that this is a fake name invented for the political purposes by Croatian nationalists.-- 3414: 2644:

If you think the source is not valid tell why with your own word, otherwise let it be. Duja has said nothing or relevant.--

1774:

Yes, of course, every person in Croatia is automatically a nationalist, and every person born in Italy is an exception. --

5051:

We still lack a reliable source argumenting in clear terms that his "real, true" name was Giorgio Orsini. - Best regards,

3374: 396: 3392: 2365:

Sebenico - why is the Italian name used (and to avoid repetition, this refers to all the names mentioned in the article)?

298: 2477:

As a disinterested party who has initiated the survey that led to the reinstatement of the original name of the article,

400: 5515:

Second chapter title is "Nationality" and the chapter discuses his name. I'm therefore changing chapter name to "Name".

5212:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

3883:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

3773:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

2838:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

422:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

133:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

1737:

Of course, and so are all of the neo-facists which demand Dalmatia to be a part of Italy. They all are exceptions. --

4253: 3353: 1956:

Oh, you replied above. Sorry, I didn't see the above accusations so I thought you are just speaking in general terms.

796:

Architecture in Italy, 1400-1500 (The Yale University Press Pelican History of Art) by Ludwig H. Heydenreich, p. 101

80:

the name of the article that did not correspond to the Knowledge standard has been changed to its previous version.

5368:

cannot be regarded as a good faith edit. About true name and Orsini's origins - see this very well documented book

2301:

in the biography of this Italian Renaissance architect due to the fact that it has no biographical data validity.--

1148:

It seems that Dijxtra is breaking the rules of Knowledge, imposing and unsupported POV for nationalistic purporses.

524:

Dalmatia), and then returned to Dalmatia. Since your source claims that he was born in Venice, it is obviously not

310: 38: 3364: 1108:

Michelin THE GREEN GUIDE Italy, 6e (THE GREEN GUIDE) by Michelin Staff and Michelin Travel Publications 2000 p.87:

285:

until further information is provided attesting to the primary language/region of activity. The article mentions

5121:

wasn't his real and true name, but merely that for stating that as a fact we lack the proper sources required by

4816:

I prefer the first and second names over the nickname. The proposed change would not improve the article value.--

4167:

I prefer the first and second names over the nickname. The proposed change would not improve the article value.--

5441:

Only amoung italophones. As well in Croatia are used names Rim , Napulj , Trst for Rome , Naples and Trieste. --

3342: 1832:

precise sources. Meanwhile stop the engines. Take care!... and don't get those line as a personal attack. Bye.--

2771:

I will ask to put it in clear a.s.a., meanwhile keep the citation, because it is important to mantain a NPOV.--

47: 17: 5024:

Giorgio appears to have been born at Zara, Dalmatia. His family was a branch of the noble Roman Family Orsini

4847:

Since I could be wrong, and to help improve this discussion, could you please mention the sources that claim

1682:

Why it is hard to find a Croatian site where 'Ivan Lupis' is presented with his real name 'Giovanni Luppis'?

963:

My version of the article doesn't say he called himself Dalmatinac. Please stop putting words in my mouth. --

888:

Of course, I'll get you the sources. But, then you have to find sources that he called himself Orsini. OK? --

3965:

on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

3165:

Italian preferred name was indicated (and significantly none is), that should be used in the Italian WP. --

2916:

on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

1791:

Don't you realize that Croatia constanly refuse the idea of any non Croatian presence in its own territory?

244:: dalmatinac is only a tranlation of Dalmaticus, that was just a nickname. Orsini is reported at the time.-- 5474:

and a monograph called "Juraj Dalmatinac" by Cvito Fisković. Reliability of this sources cannot be denied:

4918:

is not real name is baseless. You have to learn a bit more about the legislative part of the Serenissima.--

2348:

There's no need to enter in an argument with you. Here is the list of the things that need to be improved:

2031: 3822:, to publicize the issue and thus attract other editors that could add to the discussion. - Best regards, 3036:- "Giorgio da Sebenico" would therefore get my support, and maybe is a more acceptable compromise to all? 823: 169: 4352:

Giorgio da Sebenico" (p.184), and already included in both searches immediatly above (it's the one using

2792:

I've finished now. You still have to realize what have you done with reference. Have a look. Greetings.--

5373: 5330: 773:

Nonsense. Giorgio Orsini is Juraj Dalmatinac only in Croatia and nowhere else. Educate yourself, please!

294: 2534:. The only reference to "nationalistic dispute" I see is this very talk page, and it certainly isn't a 302: 4999: 4820: 3787:

the WP:RM administrators to relist the move request instead of closing it. The closing administrator,

2283:

I support Giovanni in his honest intentions to have this article here - however under the right title

4152: 4088: 4050: 1264:- "Juraj Dalmatinac" narrowed to the pages in Croatian - 1090 of which there were only 342 different 815: 5491:

will not just accept those sources as better than his own. Sill, he has to accept them as relevant.

2139:

by a certain Giacomo Scotti.... not exactly an irredentisc source (let's say so), if you know him.--

1455: 5488: 5464: 5449: 5405: 5354: 5296: 5254: 5152: 5085: 5031: 4996: 4905:

by an historian or a genealogist that shares your interpretation of this document. - Best regards,

4669: 4203: 4144: 3917: 2856: 2848: 2820: 2793: 2772: 2757:

http://xoomerDOTaliceDOTit/histria/storiaecultura/testiedocumenti/articoligiornali/artadriatico.htm

2645: 2590: 2558: 2506: 2333: 2320: 2271: 2219: 2140: 2117: 1938: 1923: 1862: 1833: 1810: 1747: 1704: 1660: 1621: 1584: 1379: 1151: 1052: 1024: 987: 852: 744: 557: 484: 388: 315: 245: 147: 105: 95: 5470:

Two most respectable Yugoslavian sources on Dalmatinac/Orsini are: Encyclopedia of Visual Arts by

3091:

I wouldn't buy it. Getty is not an authority as you try to imply. Also Getty says about the names:

1987:

Mathaei Dalmaticus, forgery coming from Croatia (second half od 19th century) - Juraj Dalmatinac--

5432: 5377: 5250: 5240: 5195: 4955: 4919: 4866: 4740: 4686: 4474:

From Filippo Lippi to Piero della Francesca: Fra Carnevale and the Making of a Renaissance Master

4113: 4075: 3607:

From Filippo Lippi to Piero della Francesca: Fra Carnevale and the Making of a Renaissance Master

2931: 2889: 2709: 2691: 2493: 2302: 2209: 2089: 2042: 1988: 1399: 1356: 1324: 1125: 613:

Official language was Italian (or Venitian), I can't see a reason for a slavic name in that time.

392: 290: 81: 200:

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

2203:

A. Dudan: La gloriosa Triade: Luciano e Francesco Laurana da Zara e Giovanni il Dalmata da Traù

357:

Support, i.e. restore to whatever original name the article had, then rerun the RM if necessary

329: 5561: 5494:

Now I will comment on every edit I make, so it can be perfectly clear what I'm doing and why:

5169: 4574: 4531: 4504: 4477: 4455: 4422: 4380: 3898: 3725: 3698: 3671: 3637: 3610: 3588: 3555: 3518: 3152:

print for decades if not centuries. Many (in both counts) are not in English, and most of the

2972: 1267:- "Juraj Dalmatinac" narrowed to the pages in English -520 of which there were 265 different 819: 3791:, decided to move the page anyway (thus reducing WP:RM's workload) because a further move to 3220:

So, it is apparent that my claim about books available at bookselsers and libraries is valid.

1258:- "Giorgio Orsini" "Juraj Dalmatinac" string gave 140 pages of which there were 61 different 5505: 5145:

family (just hypothesis A, without arguning anything, so that this shall considered a fact).

4599: 2870: 2755:

L'Adriatico orientale e la sterile ricerca della nazionalità delle persone; by Krstjan Knez

2519: 5565: 5452: 5435: 5425: 5408: 5398: 5380: 5357: 5342: 5299: 5283: 5257: 5243: 5232: 5198: 5188: 5155: 5133: 5088: 5055: 5034: 5013: 4978: 4958: 4936: 4922: 4909: 4869: 4855: 4801: 4778: 4743: 4699: 4689: 4672: 4657: 4632: 4557: 4235: 4220: 4206: 4185: 4171: 4156: 4130: 4116: 4092: 4078: 4068: 4054: 4011: 3995: 3983: 3941: 3903: 3866: 3847: 3836: 3826: 3753:(This book is a translation from the Croatian by Nina Key-Antoljak & Krešimir Sidor of 3497: 3324: 3255: 3169: 3145: 3085: 3062: 3040: 2993: 2975: 2963: 2951: 2934: 2892: 2860: 2823: 2812: 2796: 2786: 2775: 2765: 2740: 2694: 2648: 2638: 2593: 2584: 2561: 2551: 2509: 2496: 2423: 2336: 2327: 2305: 2274: 2263: 2242: 2222: 2212: 2143: 2130: 2120: 2110: 2092: 2057: 2045: 2034: 2017: 1991: 1973: 1963: 1941: 1931: 1913: 1901: 1886: 1865: 1846: 1836: 1813: 1804: 1778: 1750: 1741: 1707: 1698: 1663: 1654: 1635: 1624: 1597: 1587: 1570: 1544: 1518: 1487: 1402: 1382: 1369: 1359: 1327: 1293: 1209: 1154: 1128: 1055: 1046: 1027: 1007: 990: 967: 925: 892: 866: 855: 831: 760: 747: 728: 696: 663: 630: 598: 564: 536: 504: 487: 478: 468: 450: 441: 407: 375: 363: 345: 335: 323: 277: 257: 248: 234: 223: 211: 190: 176: 151: 118: 108: 98: 84: 5353:

Cratians'... by the way Kristjan Knez live in Croatia, Scotti the same (since 1946). Bye--

5326: 4148: 4084: 4046: 1883: 1617: 501: 475: 5556:

There. Please refer to this notes if you decide to revert my edit. Thank you in advance,

5320:. From then on, you renamed the neutrally, if not best, worded secton "Name controversy" 4419:

Venice & the East: The Impact of the Islamic World on Venetian Architecture 1100-1500

3832:

Good idea. This section is now hard to reach to edit so I will create a new header above

3795:

would not require an administrator's help, and we could do it ourselves. He explained so

3552:

Venice & the East: The Impact of the Islamic World on Venetian Architecture 1100-1500

3315:

Yes, sometimes is enough to give a very simple proof (Google search) to defeat a nonsense

1378:: so they perfectly knew theyr own name 'Orsini'. That source contraddicts your source.-- 3761:

by Ivan Supičić (Editor), AGM & Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Zagreb, 1997)

1365:

Yes, we do agree that Giorgio Orsini is used in older sources, please read carefully. --

5442: 5422: 5415: 5395: 5338: 4760:

for the very reason you mention (including it, it would have been 16 books in English).

4603: 4024: 3913: 3814:

If nobody objects, I would prefer that while we continue discussing a possible move to

3788: 2874: 2852: 2736: 2580: 2567: 2547: 2013: 1897: 1691: 438: 269: 143: 4710:

Searching for "Giorgio da Sebenico": 15 books in English, 4 of which are travel guides

2680:

if Croats claim a person to be a Croat in a relevant source, record the fact and go on

1391:

Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria: with Cettigne in Montenegro and the island of Grado

1097:

Frommer's Italy 2007 (Frommer's Complete) by Darwin Porter and Danforth Prince p. 354:

5148:

Futhemore here we have a source that tell us there is a contrcact signed as 'Orsini'

5126: 5099: 4891: 4817: 4644: 4232: 4168: 4008: 3321: 3142: 3059: 2989:, as proposed by Johnbod. But I think that more clear references are still needed. - 2948: 2809: 2713: 2635: 2619: 2432: 2420: 2324: 2260: 2248: 2239: 1375: 342: 208: 187: 173: 1261:- "Juraj Dalmatinac" string gave 14500 pages of which there were only 542 different 1188:

I say that only his son took the surname Orsini, you say that he used surname Orsini

5557: 5185: 5105: 4902: 4695:

Inaccurate in which way, may I ask ? Could you elaborate, please ? - Best regards,

4625: 4621: 4584:

Orsini, Giorgio (da Sebenico): Giorgio appears to have been born at Zara, Dalmatia.

3980: 3938: 3894: 3844: 3833: 3819: 3166: 3082: 3074: 3037: 2783: 2762: 2609:

Duja has already provided us with useful insight into the matter so I'll be brief.

2535: 2441:. - there are many references confirming that 'Juraj Dalmatinac' is just a forgery. 2127: 2107: 2054: 1970: 1960: 1928: 1910: 1843: 1828:

Don't you realize that the things are not as they were presented to you at school?!

1801: 1775: 1738: 1695: 1651: 1632: 1594: 1567: 1541: 1515: 1484: 1452: 1366: 1290: 1206: 1043: 1004: 964: 922: 889: 863: 757: 725: 693: 660: 627: 595: 561: 533: 525: 465: 447: 404: 332: 274: 254: 220: 5049:

F.H. Jones mentions that his family was a branch of the noble Roman family Orsini.

4628:(mainly those originating in the UK, USA, Ireland, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc.) - 2372:- normally this wouldn't call for a reference, but here it happens to be relevant. 1969:

But, discussion is over, until you stop calling Croatian sources a fabrication. --

500:

Born in Zadar nevertheless. As for his family origins in Venice it is unfounded.--

446:

I've only just seen this survey. What is being proposed? It's completely unclear.

3058:(Merriam Webster online). So, why not to accept the architect's personal names?-- 2375:

His opus represents the golden age of Dalmatian medieval art. - according to who?

5122: 4898: 4476:

by Keith Christiansen, Metropolitan Museum of Art Publications, New York, 2005,

3609:

by Keith Christiansen, Metropolitan Museum of Art Publications, New York, 2005,

2627: 2256: 372: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

4379:

by Ludwig H. Heydenreich, Yale University Press; Second Revised edition, 1996,

3517:

by Ludwig H. Heydenreich, Yale University Press; Second Revised edition, 1996,

2465:- try to understand the difference between his artist's name and the real name. 1620:, is always painted as the Croatian inventor Ivan Vukic-Lupis. And so on.....-- 5541: 3156:

ones are ordinary tourist guidebooks - not by historians at all. In contrast,

2960: 2539: 2106:

everybody is a Croat, that doesn't mean that everybody is Italian, does it? --

3281:

GRLPSC - Getty Research Institute, Research Library Photo Study Collection -

3069:

know, there are hundreds of artists whose "real" name is not normallly used:

2682:

lacks basic civilty to be considered as a fact at all. Claiming that instead

5365: 5334: 5280: 5229: 5138:

If you don't argue that 'Orsini' is false, that means that 'Orsini' is true.

4454:

by David Rosand, The University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, 2001,

4020: 3818:

we file a new proper move request (Giorgio Orsini → Giorgio da Sebenico) at

3587:

by David Rosand, The University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, 2001,

3305:

BHA - Bibliography of the History of Art / Bibliographie d'Histoire de l'Art

2732: 2675: 2667: 2655: 2576: 2543: 2009: 1893: 1842:

labelling a whole country because of actions of some of its individuals. --

1800:

Of course, a whole country gathers every 2 days and burns Italian flags. --

360: 4991: 4198: 2589:

Cool! What about the "some of them" that "likely are of Italian origin"?.--

2238:

paragraph). These issues need to be addressed before the tag is removed. --

848: 4060:

The Google Print count has been modified in accordance with this comment (

3310:

RILA/BHA (1975-2000) - Repetoire internationale de la litterature de l'art

2886: 253:

Might be, but having two names in article title is just not acceptable. --

5173: 5130: 5052: 5020: 5010: 4993: 4975: 4933: 4906: 4852: 4798: 4775: 4696: 4654: 4629: 4554: 4217: 4200: 4182: 4127: 4065: 4042: 4004: 3992: 3925: 3924:

the better choice, which are further confirmed by the fuller research by

3863: 3823: 3494: 3252: 3070: 2990: 2531: 2378:

surprisingly realistic for the period. - again, why? Whose claim is this?

1003:

Yes, that's right. My version of the article uses his Latin signature. --

395:: 1130. That's in "any language". If we set language to English, we get: 231: 115: 2634:. There's plenty of information there that's well worth assimilating. -- 2184: 1470:

Google test shows that international community calls him Dalmatinac now

5181: 4530:

by Peter Burke, Polity Press, Second revised edition, Cambridge, 1999,

3670:

by Peter Burke, Polity Press, Second revised edition, Cambridge, 1999,

1439:

Your links show that international community called him Orsini in past

1241:

Google test shows that international community calls him Dalmatinac now

1175:

Google test shows that international community calls him Dalmatinac now

1238:

Your links show that international community called him Orsini in past

1220:

I was triggered by these claims coming from the man signed as Dijxtra

1172:

Your links show that international community called him Orsini in past

5165: 5142: 3078: 2452: 2404: 2369: 2167:

My first attempt to make some networking gave me this response: From

286: 3026:(Dalmatian architect and sculptor, active from ca. 1441, died 1473) 5009:, or is it your personal opinion ? Thanks already. - Best regards, 2352:

Giorgio Orsini (- no reference as to why this name is listed first.

1922:

I'd also like to point out that we got into this situation because

5549: 5545: 5509: 4126:

sub-section. "Orsini, Giorgio" is now included in the searches. -

3735:...in the field of architecture and fine arts (Juraj Dalmatinac... 3724:

by Ivan Supičić (Editor), Philip Wilson Publishers, London, 2003,

3290:

The refereces below are not the American English references at all

2439:

Giorgio Orsini (- no reference as to why this name is listed first

1150:

Because the article is discussed, I'm going to add the NPOV tag.--

483:

Born in Zara (today Zadar) from a family with origins in Venice.--

5552:). I will leave them only in introduction for historical context. 1953:

What did I say wrong? Which statements did I put into your mouth?

1765:

Don't you realize there is problem of nationalism in Croatia!?!?

313:(I'm against the double barrelled name but let's get it right) - 5206:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.

5177: 4041:

Giorgio Orsini. Move him to the name by which he is known, like

3877:

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal.

3767:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.

2832:

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal.

2456: 2408: 416:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.

127:

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal.

1505:

In this case we don't know the real name of this 'Dalmaticus'.

711:

I don't care if you prefer to impose your nationalistic claims.

474:

The man was born in Zadar(or Zara) thus he was from Dalmatia.--

5184:

and so on. How many times does this point have to be made???

25: 4865:- the photocopy of document is not given here in this book)-- 4573:, by Frederic H. Jones, Crisp Publications, Los Altos, 1992, 4541:...the architect-sculptor Juraj Dalmatinac came from Sibenik. 3681:...the architect-sculptor Juraj Dalmatinac came from Sibenik. 1937:

only reason. I repeat: be carful with your word. Greetings.--

871:

Post facts (I'd like to read the source of the above theory).

4765:

Sturgis' Illustrated Dictionary of Architecture and Building

1343:

As to the famous architect real name - I found this source:

5007:

the only real and historically documented is Giorgio Orsini

3176:

be visible a window pane that includes something like this:

1540:

Do you have an idea where we could find this documents? --

946:

For sure, he did'n call himself Dalmatinac, too. .....So?!?

5047:

was his "real" name). At best, it could be used to write:

5028:

The Concise Dictionary of Architectural and Design History

4758:

The Concise Dictionary of Architectural and Design History

4571:

The Concise Dictionary of Architectural and Design History

4514:...by his apprentice Giorgio da Sebenico (d. 1475), who... 3647:...by his apprentice Giorgio da Sebenico (d. 1475), who... 2723:

have a point that the artist is most often referred to as

2618:

to check his contributions against the guidelines such as

1426:

Yes. But Dalmaticus is not his real name, it's a nickname.

5529:

Added references to 2 schools in Croatia bearing his name

5463:

I have been on a year long wikibreak, and I can see that

1076:

Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac (called Giorgio Orsini in Italy)

4649:

This comment was moved from the "Survey" section above (

4432:...Dalmatian mason-architect Giorgio da Sebenico, who... 3565:...Dalmatian mason-architect Giorgio da Sebenico, who... 2782:

time, unless you want to do so, restoring the reference

2658:

did not provide anything except meaningless comparison (

1277:

is just another name for the Croatian tourism industry.

5364:

Disqualifications of the text like the one provided by

5321: 5317: 4794: 4650: 4140: 4061: 3857: 3800: 3796: 3784: 2615: 2572: 2451:

The Latin nickname 'Georgius Dalmaticus' is present on

2403:

The Latin nickname 'Georgius Dalmaticus' is present on

2183:

Very nice thing to learn this! Inside this publication

2168: 1659:

I've posted you the source. I've some other sources. --

185: 5350:

Letteratura italiana in Dalmatia: una storia falsicata

3843:

Tag above, WP:RM notice & survey section now done

3050:

term? English language is polysemantic and one of the

2530:

name, but a (translation of) artist name akin to e.g.

5333:" rubric of a newspaper, and hardly an encyclopedia. 5222:

Name of Zadar,Šibenik and the rest of Dalmatian towns

5176:, in fact most major Italian artists, not to mention 5005:

Could you please source your initial statement, that

4851:

as his "real" name ? Thanks already. - Best regards,

3697:

by Fred Singleton, Cambridge University Press, 1999,

2208:

with Dijxtra and the likes is just a waste of time.--

4546:

Dalmatinac, Juraj (Giorgio da Sebenico), sculptor...

4400:...as important as Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico and... 3686:

Dalmatinac, Juraj (Giorgio da Sebenico), sculptor...

3538:...as important as Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico and... 1692:

http://www.torpedo150rijeka.org/povijest.asp?lang=hr

1319:

Italian history, culture, art) uses the correct name

4437:...Dalmatian assistant, Giorgio da Sebenico, who... 3780:

Further Move to Giorgio da Sebenico - preliminaries

3722:

Croatia in the Early Middle Ages: A Cultural Survey

3570:...Dalmatian assistant, Giorgio da Sebenico, who... 3056:

a concession to something derogatory or prejudicial

4465:...who ascribes the relief to Giorgio da Sebenico. 3598:...who ascribes the relief to Giorgio da Sebenico. 2847:. If further discussion results in consensus for 2712:. It reached the point where pretty much everyone 2447:. - Already supported - again, read the discussion 2662:lifetime nickname equivalent to the 'translated' 1374:You miss the point. They claimed to descend from 297:). The vaunted "Google Test" would have us move 4503:by Evelyn Welch, Oxford University Press, 2001, 4421:by Deborah Howard, Yale University Press, 2000. 4386:, p.74, 80, 101, 183 (index) & 184 (index): 4271:books in English, 10 of which are travel guides. 3636:by Evelyn Welch, Oxford University Press, 2001, 3554:by Deborah Howard, Yale University Press, 2000. 3479:books in English, 10 of which are travel guides. 3349:books in English, 11 of which are travel guides. 5538:Knowledge:Naming conventions (geographic names) 4260:books in English, 4 of which are travel guides. 3755:Hrvatska i Europa. Kultura, znanost i umjetnost 3371:books in English, 6 of which are travel guides. 3360:books in English, 4 of which are travel guides. 3300:Grove Art Online. Oxford University Press, 2003 4901:, what would be required is the citation of a 4487:...at Ancona Giorgio da Sebenico juxtaposed... 4348:book in English, mentioning "Orsini, Giorgio, 4212:This opinion is being discussed below, in the 4177:This opinion is being discussed below, in the 4122:This opinion is being discussed below, in the 3620:...at Ancona Giorgio da Sebenico juxtaposed... 2985:From what I have seen so far, I would support 1216:Google, international community and other lies 4598:Please see previous discussion above (in the 3251:appears in at least one instance. - Regards, 2614:ask the user responsible for the above cited 8: 5064:About the connection with the Roman family: 4492:On Giorgio da Sebenico's Ancona workshops... 3625:On Giorgio da Sebenico's Ancona workshops... 1252:As per google search engine applied to the 1557:So your source does not seem credibile.... 460:"Giorgio Orsini was originally from Venice" 5414:Oh yes. I will just obey to your wishes -- 4452:Myths of Venice: The Figuration of a State 3585:Myths of Venice: The Figuration of a State 2851:, that move is not blocked so go ahead. — 4442:Giorgio da Sebenico (Jurai Dalmatinac)... 4410:Orsini, Giorgio, see Giorgio da Sebenico. 3803:to "go ahead" and continue the debate on 3575:Giorgio da Sebenico (Jurai Dalmatinac)... 2670:'s 'ethnic identity'. Here the adjective 2518:Which discussion? The article is full of 2160:Giorgio Orsini, references and networking 1423:He signed as Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus 4390:...by Giorgio da Sebenico, whose hand... 3708:One of Juraj Dalmatinac's early works... 3528:...by Giorgio da Sebenico, whose hand... 1229:He signed as Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus 1163:He signed as Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus 849:http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Sebenico 5030:- Pag.286, by Frederic H Jones, 1955-- 4213: 4178: 4037:for Giorgio Orsini actually says he is 3695:A Short History of the Yugoslav Peoples 2358:called Giorgio da Sebenico - why is he 2198:M. Cace: Sulla casata di Giorgio Orsini 1160:OK, lets see on which things we agree: 4318:books in English (including one using 3745:Juraj Dalmatinac, Croatian sculptor... 3464:books in English (including one using 3449:books in English (including one using 1418:OK, lets see on which things we agree: 1225:OK, lets see on which things we agree: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 4974:Did I got it right ? - Best regards, 4360:by Ludwig H. Heydenreich, see below). 4294:"Giorgio Orsini" OR "Orsini, Giorgio" 4265:"Giorgio Orsini" OR "Orsini, Giorgio" 3909:Requested Move to Giorgio da Sebenico 2716:on your side (and with good reasons). 2193:V. Fasolo: Giorgio Orsini, il dalmata 2185:http://www.sddsp.it/pubblicazioni.htm 1892:Looks like a fair thing to do to me. 268:, although I would support a move to 7: 4143:was on this talk page in support of 164:Giorgio Orsini - Juraj Dalmatinac → 4844:are all "nicknames" or supositions. 4501:Art in Renaissance Italy: 1350-1500 4033:I observe with some amusement that 3634:Art in Renaissance Italy: 1350-1500 3524:, p.74, 80, 101 & 183 (index): 5476:Yugoslav Lexicographical Institute 5472:Yugoslav Lexicographical Institute 4123: 2400:be: According to the book by XY... 1196:Did I sumarise the conflict right? 160:Requested move to Juraj Dalmatinac 24: 4774:in the searches. - Best regards, 4337:, the other 2 are travel guides). 3856:Thanks :-) I made a few changes ( 3187:Yale University Press - Publisher 1431:he never signed Juraj Dalmatinac 5404:Please... not another time :-(-- 4606:move request) before commenting. 4377:Architecture in Italy, 1400-1500 4358:Architecture in Italy, 1400-1500 4322:), 2 of which are travel guides. 3515:Architecture in Italy, 1400-1500 3468:), 2 of which are travel guides. 3453:), 2 of which are travel guides. 3275:VP - Getty Vocabulary Program - 2866:Requested move to Giorgio Orsini 1232:He never signed Juraj Dalmatinac 1166:He never signed Juraj Dalmatinac 29: 4620:Please, keep in mind that, per 4428:, p.43, 183 & 275 (index): 3561:, p.43, 183 & 275 (index): 2396:The slavic name - weasel terms. 1502:He never signed Georgio Orsini 921:There, now you have sources. -- 4395:...with Giorgio da Sebenico... 4139:Single-purpose account, whose 3731:, p.45, 91 & 625 (index): 3533:...with Giorgio da Sebenico... 2686:name - the world shall accept 1235:He never signed Georgio Orsini 1169:He never signed Georgio Orsini 528:, so it is to be disregarded. 408:17:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC) 376:04:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC) 364:09:25, 22 September 2006 (UTC) 346:09:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC) 336:08:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC) 324:06:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC) 278:16:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC) 258:16:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC) 249:13:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC) 235:13:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC) 224:11:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC) 212:09:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC) 191:11:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC) 177:09:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC) 152:03:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC) 119:16:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC) 1: 5566:18:32, 28 November 2007 (UTC) 5244:00:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC) 3888:The result of the debate was 3325:20:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC) 3170:19:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC) 3146:18:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC) 3086:19:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC) 3063:18:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC) 3041:04:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC) 2976:17:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC) 2964:21:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC) 2952:17:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC) 2893:20:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC) 2843:The result of the debate was 2813:18:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC) 2797:11:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC) 2787:11:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC) 2776:10:22, 24 December 2006 (UTC) 2766:22:01, 23 December 2006 (UTC) 2741:08:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC) 2695:01:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC) 2690:name? In a relevant source?-- 2649:21:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC) 2639:20:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC) 2594:09:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC) 2585:14:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC) 2562:14:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC) 2552:08:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC) 2510:13:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC) 2497:01:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC) 2424:18:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC) 2337:18:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC) 2328:18:15, 17 December 2006 (UTC) 2306:19:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC) 2275:18:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC) 2264:17:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC) 2243:16:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC) 2223:14:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 2213:23:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC) 2144:23:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 2131:23:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 2121:22:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 2111:20:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 2093:20:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 2058:19:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 2046:19:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 2035:17:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 2018:17:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1992:14:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1974:15:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1964:14:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1942:14:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1932:13:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1914:23:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1902:20:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1887:15:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1866:14:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1847:13:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1837:10:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1814:14:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1805:13:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1779:13:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1751:14:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1742:13:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1708:14:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1699:13:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1694:I found it in 30 seconds. -- 1664:14:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1655:13:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1636:15:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1625:13:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1598:15:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1588:12:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1571:15:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1545:15:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1519:15:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1488:15:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1456:15:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1403:17:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1383:12:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1370:11:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1360:01:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1328:17:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1294:11:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 1210:11:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 1155:08:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 1056:08:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 397:"Juraj Dalmatinac" -wikipedia 389:"Juraj Dalmatinac" -wikipedia 170:Knowledge:Proper names policy 138:The result of the debate was 5233:19:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 5199:13:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 5189:17:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC) 5156:17:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC) 5134:21:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC) 5089:19:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC) 4802:08:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC) 4735:... which actually supports 4658:21:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC) 4647:04:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC) 4611:Add any additional comments: 4333:books in English (one using 4236:02:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC) 4157:02:54, 15 January 2007 (UTC) 4093:18:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 4079:13:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 4069:08:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC) 4055:06:16, 12 January 2007 (UTC) 3904:03:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC) 3011:Add any additional comments: 1858:Dalmatia: a falsfied history 1514:Yes, it seems like that. -- 1396:but signed as Giorgio Orsini 1129:01:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC) 1047:07:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC) 1028:20:50, 8 November 2006 (UTC) 1008:10:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC) 991:09:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC) 968:10:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC) 926:15:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC) 893:10:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC) 867:22:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 856:22:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 844:Name according to Britannica 832:23:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 761:22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 748:21:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 729:22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 697:22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 664:22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 631:22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 599:22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 565:22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 537:20:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 505:17:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC) 488:22:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 479:02:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 469:22:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC) 387:Results of the Google test: 5056:22:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC) 5035:13:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC) 5014:20:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC) 5000:15:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC) 4979:03:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC) 4959:03:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC) 4937:04:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC) 4923:03:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC) 4910:20:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC) 4870:16:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC) 4856:21:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC) 4828:Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus 4821:21:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC) 4779:20:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC) 4744:16:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC) 4700:04:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC) 4690:02:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC) 4673:13:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC) 4633:02:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC) 4558:23:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 4537:, p. 46 & 296 (index): 4510:, p. 65 & 347 (index): 4221:22:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC) 4207:15:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC) 4186:20:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC) 4172:21:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC) 4131:20:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC) 4117:02:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC) 4012:04:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC) 3996:23:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 3984:22:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 3942:22:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 3867:02:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC) 3848:22:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 3837:22:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 3827:19:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 3801:his RM-closing comment here 3677:, p. 46 & 296 (index): 3643:, p. 65 & 347 (index): 3498:05:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 3256:07:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 3243:Actually, Heydenreich uses 3214:Find this book in a library 2994:08:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 2935:02:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC) 2861:17:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 2824:15:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC) 2362:called Giorgio da Sebenico. 1247:Do we agree on all of this? 1180:Do we agree on all of this? 451:21:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC) 442:19:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC) 401:"Giorgio Orsini" -wikipedia 393:"Giorgio Orsini" -wikipedia 109:08:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC) 99:18:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC) 85:18:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC) 5581: 4354:Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico 4335:Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico 4320:Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico 3759:Rano doba hrvatske kulture 3704:, p.63 & 300 (index): 3483:"Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac" 3466:Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico 3451:Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico 3425:"Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac" 3375:"Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac" 3249:Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico 2189:there are three articles: 1856:, the title is intresting 532:Orsini wasn't his name. -- 515:Before reverting read this 328:See my reply to you here: 5453:08:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC) 5436:17:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC) 5426:18:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC) 5409:18:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC) 5399:18:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC) 5381:01:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC) 5300:22:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC) 5284:21:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC) 5258:20:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC) 4903:reliable secondary source 3046:I do not understand your 5504:Caption says: "A modern 5358:12:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC) 5348:False: there is a paper 5343:15:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC) 5209:Please do not modify it. 4886:means that this was his 4832:Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac 4811: 3880:Please do not modify it. 3770:Please do not modify it. 2835:Please do not modify it. 2704:"Croatian" should apply. 1185:What we don't agree is: 419:Please do not modify it. 130:Please do not modify it. 18:Talk:Giorgio da Sebenico 5108:is very clear about it: 4890:name. This constitutes 4763:You're right regarding 4528:The Italian Renaissance 3668:The Italian Renaissance 3126:Your comparison of the 1275:international community 1273:So, for this man - the 4519:Giorgio da Sebenico... 4405:Giorgio da Sebenico... 4007:'s arguments below. -- 3971:Survey - Support votes 3652:Giorgio da Sebenico... 3543:Giorgio da Sebenico... 3247:(index included), but 2930:- as the nominator. -- 2922:Survey - Support votes 1412: 5374:letters to the editor 5331:letters to the editor 5117:I'm not arguing that 4990:'Giorgio da Sebenico' 4312:"Giorgio da Sebenico" 4283:"Giorgio da Sebenico" 4254:"Giorgio da Sebenico" 4197:'Giorgio da Sebenico' 4103:Survey - Oppose votes 3799:and encouraged us in 3458:"Giorgio da Sebenico" 3404:"Giorgio da Sebenico" 3354:"Giorgio da Sebenico" 3000:Survey - Oppose votes 2568:avoid self-references 2461:Cathedral of St.Jacob 2413:Cathedral of St.Jacob 42:of past discussions. 4770:I have now included 4371:Giorgio da Sebenico: 4039:erroneously known as 3740:Juraj M. Dalmatinac. 3713:Dalmatinac, Juraj... 3509:Giorgio da Sebenico: 3197:Barnes&Noble.com 5489:User:Giovanni Giove 5465:User:Giovanni Giove 4836:Giorgio da Sebenico 4483:, p.106 & 132: 4289:results in English. 4276:Google Scholar test 4145:User:Giovanni Giove 3979:- as the nominator 3932:Giorgio da Sebenico 3922:Giorgio da Sebenico 3918:Giorgio da Sebenico 3816:Giorgio da Sebenico 3793:Giorgio da Sebenico 3616:, p.106 & 132: 3431:results in English. 3421:results in English. 3410:results in English. 3399:results in English. 3386:Google Scholar test 3245:Giorgio da Sebenico 3158:Giorgio da Sebenico 3128:Giorgio da Sebenico 3117:Giorgio da Sebenico 3023:Giorgio da Sebenico 2987:Giorgio da Sebenico 2879:Georgius Dalmaticus 2849:Giorgio da Sebenico 2729:Giorgio da Sebenico 2573:see e.g this beauty 2538:. And, you keep on 2368:He was educated in 1924:User:Giovanni Giove 5251:Republic of Ragusa 4812:On his 'real' name 4739:as a valid name.-- 4708:For example, your 4300:result in English. 4214:On his 'real' name 4179:On his 'real' name 4035:one of the sources 3473:"Juraj Dalmatinac" 3415:"Juraj Dalmatinac" 3365:"Juraj Dalmatinac" 2819:them, next time.-- 2803:"Name controversy" 2710:poisoning the well 307:sexual intercourse 291:Republic of Venice 5170:Leonardo da Vinci 5100:original reaserch 4931: 4892:original research 4660: 4342:"Orsini, Giorgio" 4247:Google Print test 4223: 4188: 4159: 4155: 4133: 4091: 4071: 4053: 3662:Juraj Dalmatinac: 3489:books in English. 3381:books in English. 3336:Google Print test 2714:assumes bad faith 2630:and, especially, 1957: 835: 818:comment added by 72: 71: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 5572: 5341: 5211: 5129:- Best regards, 4929: 4756:I did not count 4648: 4626:reliable sources 4600:Juraj Dalmatinac 4327:"Giorgio Orsini" 4211: 4176: 4151: 4138: 4121: 4087: 4059: 4049: 4027: 3902: 3882: 3772: 3443:"Giorgio Orsini" 3393:"Giorgio Orsini" 3343:"Giorgio Orsini" 2883:Juraj Dalmatinac 2871:Juraj Dalmatinac 2837: 2739: 2688:Juraj Dalmatinac 2664:Juraj Dalmatinac 2583: 2550: 2289:Name controversy 2236:Name controversy 2164:Hello Giovanni, 2032:Sicilianmandolin 2016: 1955: 1900: 1608:Croatian sources 1135:The core problem 834: 812: 421: 322: 320: 182:Comment (as nom) 166:Juraj Dalmatinac 132: 63: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 5580: 5579: 5575: 5574: 5573: 5571: 5570: 5569: 5461: 5448:Oh my God :-(-- 5392: 5337: 5314: 5224: 5216: 5207: 5106:WP:OR#SYNTHESIS 4814: 4772:Orsini, Giorgio 4683: 4594: 4565:Giorgio Orsini: 4367: 4305:Amazon.com test 4244: 4216:sub-section. - 4181:sub-section. - 4149:Septentrionalis 4105: 4085:Septentrionalis 4047:Septentrionalis 4023: 3973: 3963: 3957: 3956:# '''Support''' 3949: 3911: 3893: 3878: 3782: 3777: 3768: 3505: 3436:Amazon.com test 3333: 3032:Orsini, Giorgio 3007: 3002: 2924: 2914: 2908: 2907:# '''Support''' 2900: 2868: 2833: 2805: 2751: 2735: 2579: 2546: 2536:reliable source 2231: 2162: 2012: 1896: 1880: 1618:Giovanni Luppis 1610: 1415: 1278: 1218: 1137: 1020: 846: 813: 526:reliable source 517: 462: 431: 426: 417: 384: 316: 314: 198: 162: 128: 92: 77: 59: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 5578: 5576: 5554: 5553: 5534: 5530: 5527: 5523: 5519: 5516: 5513: 5502: 5499: 5460: 5457: 5456: 5455: 5450:Giovanni Giove 5439: 5438: 5433:Giorgio Orsini 5412: 5411: 5406:Giovanni Giove 5391: 5388: 5386: 5384: 5383: 5378:Giorgio Orsini 5361: 5360: 5355:Giovanni Giove 5313: 5310: 5309: 5308: 5307: 5306: 5305: 5304: 5303: 5302: 5297:Giovanni Giove 5277: 5276: 5275: 5274: 5273: 5272: 5263: 5262: 5261: 5260: 5255:Giovanni Giove 5241:Giorgio Orsini 5223: 5220: 5218: 5215: 5214: 5203: 5202: 5201: 5196:Giorgio Orsini 5161: 5160: 5159: 5158: 5153:Giovanni Giove 5146: 5139: 5119:Giorgio Orsini 5115: 5109: 5103: 5094: 5093: 5092: 5091: 5086:Giovanni Giove 5082: 5081: 5080: 5076: 5072: 5069: 5062: 5045:Giorgio Orsini 5040: 5039: 5038: 5037: 5032:Giovanni Giove 4997:Giovanni Giove 4988: 4986: 4985: 4984: 4983: 4982: 4981: 4972: 4966: 4963: 4962: 4961: 4956:Giorgio Orsini 4944: 4943: 4942: 4941: 4940: 4939: 4927: 4926: 4925: 4920:Giorgio Orsini 4916:Giorgio Orsini 4895: 4884:Giorgio Orsini 4875: 4874: 4873: 4872: 4867:Giorgio Orsini 4863:Giorgio Orsini 4849:Giorgio Orsini 4845: 4842:Giorgio Orsini 4813: 4810: 4809: 4808: 4807: 4806: 4805: 4804: 4786: 4785: 4784: 4783: 4782: 4781: 4768: 4761: 4749: 4748: 4747: 4746: 4741:Giorgio Orsini 4737:Giorgio Orsini 4730: 4729: 4728: 4727: 4720: 4719: 4718: 4717: 4713: 4703: 4702: 4687:Giorgio Orsini 4682: 4679: 4678: 4677: 4676: 4675: 4670:Giovanni Giove 4662: 4661: 4636: 4635: 4614: 4613: 4608: 4604:Giorgio Orsini 4593: 4590: 4589: 4588: 4587: 4586: 4562: 4553:Best regards, 4551: 4550: 4549: 4548: 4543: 4524: 4523: 4522: 4521: 4516: 4497: 4496: 4495: 4494: 4489: 4470: 4469: 4468: 4467: 4448: 4447: 4446: 4445: 4439: 4434: 4415: 4414: 4413: 4412: 4407: 4402: 4397: 4392: 4366: 4363: 4362: 4361: 4340:Searching for 4338: 4325:Searching for 4323: 4310:Searching for 4302: 4301: 4292:Searching for 4290: 4281:Searching for 4273: 4272: 4263:Searching for 4261: 4252:Searching for 4243: 4240: 4239: 4238: 4226: 4225: 4224: 4204:Giovanni Giove 4191: 4190: 4189: 4162: 4161: 4160: 4135: 4134: 4114:Giorgio Orsini 4104: 4101: 4100: 4099: 4098: 4097: 4096: 4095: 4076:Giorgio Orsini 4072: 4028: 4014: 3998: 3986: 3972: 3969: 3968: 3967: 3964: 3962:# '''Oppose''' 3961: 3958: 3955: 3948: 3945: 3914:Giorgio Orsini 3910: 3907: 3886: 3885: 3873: 3872: 3871: 3870: 3869: 3861: 3851: 3850: 3840: 3839: 3781: 3778: 3776: 3775: 3763: 3762: 3750: 3749: 3748: 3747: 3742: 3737: 3718: 3717: 3716: 3715: 3710: 3691: 3690: 3689: 3688: 3683: 3659: 3657: 3656: 3655: 3654: 3649: 3630: 3629: 3628: 3627: 3622: 3603: 3602: 3601: 3600: 3581: 3580: 3579: 3578: 3572: 3567: 3548: 3547: 3546: 3545: 3540: 3535: 3530: 3504: 3501: 3493:Best regards, 3491: 3490: 3481:Searching for 3480: 3471:Searching for 3469: 3456:Searching for 3454: 3441:Searching for 3433: 3432: 3423:Searching for 3422: 3413:Searching for 3411: 3402:Searching for 3400: 3391:Searching for 3383: 3382: 3373:Searching for 3372: 3363:Searching for 3361: 3352:Searching for 3350: 3341:Searching for 3332: 3329: 3328: 3327: 3317: 3316: 3312: 3311: 3307: 3306: 3302: 3301: 3298: 3294: 3293: 3286: 3285: 3283:self reference 3279: 3277:self reference 3272: 3271: 3267: 3266: 3265: 3264: 3263: 3262: 3261: 3260: 3259: 3258: 3232: 3231: 3228:Giorgio Orsini 3222: 3221: 3217: 3216: 3210: 3209: 3204: 3199: 3194: 3189: 3183: 3182: 3177: 3154:Giorgio Orsini 3149: 3148: 3139: 3124: 3121:Giorgio Orsini 3111: 3110: 3103: 3102: 3097: 3095:Preferred Name 3092: 3066: 3065: 3034: 3033: 3030: 3029:Giorgio Orsini 3027: 3024: 3014: 3013: 3006: 3003: 3001: 2998: 2997: 2996: 2981: 2979: 2978: 2966: 2954: 2945:Giorgio Orsini 2937: 2932:Giorgio Orsini 2923: 2920: 2919: 2918: 2915: 2913:# '''Oppose''' 2912: 2909: 2906: 2899: 2896: 2875:Giorgio Orsini 2867: 2864: 2841: 2840: 2828: 2827: 2826: 2821:Giovanni Giove 2804: 2801: 2800: 2799: 2794:Giovanni Giove 2779: 2778: 2773:Giovanni Giove 2761: 2759:]</ref: --> 2754: 2750: 2747: 2746: 2745: 2744: 2743: 2725:Giorgio Orsini 2717: 2705: 2698: 2697: 2684:Giorgio Orsini 2652: 2651: 2646:Giovanni Giove 2607: 2606: 2605: 2604: 2603: 2602: 2601: 2600: 2599: 2598: 2597: 2596: 2591:Giovanni Giove 2559:Giovanni Giove 2516: 2515: 2514: 2513: 2512: 2507:Giovanni Giove 2490: 2483: 2482: 2481: 2480: 2471: 2470: 2469: 2468: 2467: 2466: 2448: 2442: 2417: 2416: 2401: 2397: 2394: 2391: 2388: 2385: 2382: 2379: 2376: 2373: 2366: 2363: 2353: 2346: 2345: 2344: 2343: 2342: 2341: 2340: 2339: 2334:Giovanni Giove 2321:Giovanni Giove 2311: 2310: 2309: 2308: 2295: 2294: 2293: 2292: 2285:Giorgio Orsini 2278: 2277: 2272:Giovanni Giove 2230: 2227: 2226: 2225: 2220:Giovanni Giove 2205: 2204: 2200: 2199: 2195: 2194: 2173:Hallo Giorgio, 2161: 2158: 2157: 2156: 2155: 2154: 2153: 2152: 2151: 2150: 2149: 2148: 2147: 2146: 2141:Giovanni Giove 2118:Giovanni Giove 2098: 2097: 2096: 2095: 2080: 2079: 2078: 2077: 2070: 2069: 2068: 2067: 2061: 2060: 2049: 2048: 2027: 2026: 2025: 2024: 2023: 2022: 2021: 2020: 1999: 1998: 1997: 1996: 1995: 1994: 1984: 1983: 1982: 1981: 1980: 1979: 1978: 1977: 1976: 1966: 1959:your mouth? -- 1939:Giovanni Giove 1917: 1916: 1905: 1904: 1879: 1876: 1875: 1874: 1873: 1872: 1871: 1870: 1869: 1868: 1863:Giovanni Giove 1834:Giovanni Giove 1829: 1826: 1825: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1821: 1820: 1819: 1818: 1817: 1816: 1811:Giovanni Giove 1789: 1788: 1787: 1786: 1785: 1784: 1783: 1782: 1781: 1763: 1762: 1761: 1760: 1759: 1758: 1757: 1756: 1755: 1754: 1753: 1748:Giovanni Giove 1726: 1723: 1720: 1719: 1718: 1717: 1716: 1715: 1714: 1713: 1712: 1711: 1710: 1705:Giovanni Giove 1680: 1676: 1675: 1674: 1673: 1672: 1671: 1670: 1669: 1668: 1667: 1666: 1661:Giovanni Giove 1622:Giovanni Giove 1614: 1609: 1606: 1605: 1604: 1603: 1602: 1601: 1600: 1585:Giovanni Giove 1581: 1580: 1579: 1578: 1577: 1576: 1575: 1574: 1573: 1555: 1554: 1553: 1552: 1551: 1550: 1549: 1548: 1547: 1529: 1528: 1527: 1526: 1525: 1524: 1523: 1522: 1521: 1500: 1499: 1498: 1497: 1496: 1495: 1494: 1493: 1492: 1491: 1490: 1468: 1467: 1466: 1465: 1464: 1463: 1462: 1461: 1460: 1459: 1458: 1437: 1436: 1435: 1429: 1428: 1427: 1414: 1413:Giove's answer 1411: 1410: 1409: 1408: 1407: 1406: 1405: 1388: 1380:Giovanni Giove 1341: 1340: 1339: 1338: 1337: 1336: 1335: 1334: 1333: 1332: 1331: 1330: 1321:Giorgio Orsini 1305: 1304: 1303: 1302: 1301: 1300: 1299: 1298: 1297: 1296: 1272: 1250: 1249: 1244: 1243: 1242: 1239: 1236: 1233: 1230: 1217: 1214: 1213: 1212: 1198: 1197: 1194: 1193: 1192: 1189: 1182: 1181: 1178: 1177: 1176: 1173: 1170: 1167: 1164: 1152:Giovanni Giove 1149: 1147: 1145: 1143: 1141: 1136: 1133: 1132: 1131: 1121: 1120: 1115: 1114: 1104: 1103: 1093: 1092: 1087: 1086: 1079: 1078: 1072: 1071: 1068: 1067: 1066: 1065: 1064: 1063: 1062: 1061: 1060: 1059: 1058: 1053:Giovanni Giove 1025:Giovanni Giove 1019: 1016: 1015: 1014: 1013: 1012: 1011: 1010: 996: 995: 994: 993: 988:Giovanni Giove 981: 980: 979: 978: 977: 976: 975: 974: 973: 972: 971: 970: 950: 949: 948: 947: 941: 940: 939: 938: 937: 936: 935: 934: 933: 932: 931: 930: 929: 928: 906: 905: 904: 903: 902: 901: 900: 899: 898: 897: 896: 895: 875: 874: 873: 872: 853:Giovanni Giove 845: 842: 841: 840: 839: 838: 837: 836: 803: 802: 801: 800: 799: 798: 784: 783: 782: 781: 780: 779: 774: 766: 765: 764: 763: 751: 750: 745:Giovanni Giove 740: 739: 738: 737: 736: 735: 734: 733: 732: 731: 713: 712: 708: 707: 706: 705: 704: 703: 702: 701: 700: 699: 680: 679: 675: 674: 673: 672: 671: 670: 669: 668: 667: 666: 647: 646: 642: 641: 640: 639: 638: 637: 636: 635: 634: 633: 615: 614: 610: 609: 608: 607: 606: 605: 604: 603: 602: 601: 582: 581: 576: 575: 574: 573: 572: 571: 570: 569: 568: 567: 545: 544: 516: 513: 512: 511: 510: 509: 508: 507: 493: 492: 491: 490: 485:Giovanni Giove 461: 458: 456: 454: 453: 444: 430: 427: 425: 424: 412: 411: 410: 383: 380: 379: 378: 366: 353: 352: 351: 350: 349: 348: 280: 270:Giorgio Orsini 262: 261: 260: 246:Giovanni Giove 238: 237: 226: 214: 207:as nominator. 197: 194: 161: 158: 156: 136: 135: 123: 122: 121: 106:Giovanni Giove 96:Giovanni Giove 91: 88: 76: 75:General review 73: 70: 69: 64: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 5577: 5568: 5567: 5563: 5559: 5551: 5547: 5543: 5539: 5535: 5531: 5528: 5524: 5520: 5517: 5514: 5511: 5507: 5503: 5500: 5497: 5496: 5495: 5492: 5490: 5486: 5482: 5477: 5473: 5468: 5466: 5458: 5454: 5451: 5447: 5446: 5445: 5444: 5437: 5434: 5430: 5429: 5428: 5427: 5424: 5418: 5417: 5410: 5407: 5403: 5402: 5401: 5400: 5397: 5389: 5387: 5382: 5379: 5375: 5371: 5367: 5363: 5362: 5359: 5356: 5351: 5347: 5346: 5345: 5344: 5340: 5336: 5332: 5328: 5323: 5319: 5311: 5301: 5298: 5294: 5293: 5292: 5291: 5290: 5289: 5288: 5287: 5286: 5285: 5282: 5269: 5268: 5267: 5266: 5265: 5264: 5259: 5256: 5252: 5247: 5246: 5245: 5242: 5237: 5236: 5235: 5234: 5231: 5227: 5221: 5219: 5213: 5210: 5204: 5200: 5197: 5192: 5191: 5190: 5187: 5183: 5179: 5175: 5171: 5167: 5163: 5162: 5157: 5154: 5150: 5147: 5144: 5140: 5137: 5136: 5135: 5132: 5128: 5124: 5120: 5116: 5114: 5110: 5107: 5104: 5101: 5096: 5095: 5090: 5087: 5084:Greetings. -- 5083: 5077: 5073: 5070: 5066: 5065: 5063: 5059: 5058: 5057: 5054: 5050: 5046: 5042: 5041: 5036: 5033: 5029: 5025: 5021: 5017: 5016: 5015: 5012: 5008: 5004: 5003: 5002: 5001: 4998: 4994: 4992: 4980: 4977: 4973: 4971: 4967: 4964: 4960: 4957: 4952: 4951: 4950: 4949: 4948: 4947: 4946: 4945: 4938: 4935: 4928: 4924: 4921: 4917: 4913: 4912: 4911: 4908: 4904: 4900: 4896: 4893: 4889: 4885: 4881: 4880: 4879: 4878: 4877: 4876: 4871: 4868: 4864: 4859: 4858: 4857: 4854: 4850: 4846: 4843: 4840: 4837: 4833: 4829: 4825: 4824: 4823: 4822: 4819: 4803: 4800: 4796: 4792: 4791: 4790: 4789: 4788: 4787: 4780: 4777: 4773: 4769: 4766: 4762: 4759: 4755: 4754: 4753: 4752: 4751: 4750: 4745: 4742: 4738: 4734: 4733: 4732: 4731: 4724: 4723: 4722: 4721: 4714: 4711: 4707: 4706: 4705: 4704: 4701: 4698: 4694: 4693: 4692: 4691: 4688: 4681:On inaccuracy 4680: 4674: 4671: 4666: 4665: 4664: 4663: 4659: 4656: 4652: 4646: 4641: 4638: 4637: 4634: 4631: 4627: 4623: 4619: 4616: 4615: 4612: 4609: 4607: 4605: 4601: 4596: 4595: 4591: 4585: 4582: 4581: 4579: 4578:1-56052-069-8 4576: 4572: 4569: 4568: 4567: 4566: 4560: 4559: 4556: 4547: 4544: 4542: 4539: 4538: 4536: 4535:0-7456-2138-4 4533: 4529: 4526: 4525: 4520: 4517: 4515: 4512: 4511: 4509: 4508:0-19-284279-X 4506: 4502: 4499: 4498: 4493: 4490: 4488: 4485: 4484: 4482: 4481:0-300-10716-1 4479: 4475: 4472: 4471: 4466: 4463: 4462: 4460: 4459:0-8078-2641-3 4457: 4453: 4450: 4449: 4443: 4440: 4438: 4435: 4433: 4430: 4429: 4427: 4426:0-300-08504-4 4424: 4420: 4417: 4416: 4411: 4408: 4406: 4403: 4401: 4398: 4396: 4393: 4391: 4388: 4387: 4385: 4384:0-300-06467-5 4382: 4378: 4375: 4374: 4373: 4372: 4364: 4359: 4355: 4351: 4347: 4343: 4339: 4336: 4332: 4328: 4324: 4321: 4317: 4313: 4309: 4308: 4307: 4306: 4299: 4295: 4291: 4288: 4284: 4280: 4279: 4278: 4277: 4270: 4266: 4262: 4259: 4255: 4251: 4250: 4249: 4248: 4241: 4237: 4234: 4230: 4227: 4222: 4219: 4215: 4210: 4209: 4208: 4205: 4201: 4199: 4195: 4192: 4187: 4184: 4180: 4175: 4174: 4173: 4170: 4166: 4163: 4158: 4154: 4150: 4146: 4142: 4137: 4136: 4132: 4129: 4125: 4124:On inaccuracy 4120: 4119: 4118: 4115: 4110: 4107: 4106: 4102: 4094: 4090: 4086: 4082: 4081: 4080: 4077: 4073: 4070: 4067: 4063: 4058: 4057: 4056: 4052: 4048: 4044: 4040: 4036: 4032: 4029: 4026: 4022: 4018: 4015: 4013: 4010: 4006: 4002: 3999: 3997: 3994: 3990: 3987: 3985: 3982: 3978: 3975: 3974: 3970: 3966: 3960: 3954: 3951: 3950: 3946: 3944: 3943: 3940: 3935: 3933: 3929: 3927: 3923: 3919: 3915: 3908: 3906: 3905: 3900: 3896: 3891: 3884: 3881: 3875: 3874: 3868: 3865: 3859: 3855: 3854: 3853: 3852: 3849: 3846: 3842: 3841: 3838: 3835: 3831: 3830: 3829: 3828: 3825: 3821: 3817: 3812: 3810: 3806: 3802: 3798: 3794: 3790: 3786: 3779: 3774: 3771: 3765: 3764: 3760: 3756: 3752: 3751: 3746: 3743: 3741: 3738: 3736: 3733: 3732: 3730: 3729:0-85667-499-0 3727: 3723: 3720: 3719: 3714: 3711: 3709: 3706: 3705: 3703: 3702:0-521-27485-0 3700: 3696: 3693: 3692: 3687: 3684: 3682: 3679: 3678: 3676: 3675:0-7456-2138-4 3673: 3669: 3666: 3665: 3664: 3663: 3653: 3650: 3648: 3645: 3644: 3642: 3641:0-19-284279-X 3639: 3635: 3632: 3631: 3626: 3623: 3621: 3618: 3617: 3615: 3614:0-300-10716-1 3612: 3608: 3605: 3604: 3599: 3596: 3595: 3593: 3592:0-8078-2641-3 3590: 3586: 3583: 3582: 3576: 3573: 3571: 3568: 3566: 3563: 3562: 3560: 3559:0-300-08504-4 3557: 3553: 3550: 3549: 3544: 3541: 3539: 3536: 3534: 3531: 3529: 3526: 3525: 3523: 3522:0-300-06467-5 3520: 3516: 3513: 3512: 3511: 3510: 3502: 3500: 3499: 3496: 3488: 3484: 3478: 3474: 3470: 3467: 3463: 3459: 3455: 3452: 3448: 3444: 3440: 3439: 3438: 3437: 3430: 3426: 3420: 3416: 3412: 3409: 3405: 3401: 3398: 3394: 3390: 3389: 3388: 3387: 3380: 3376: 3370: 3366: 3362: 3359: 3355: 3351: 3348: 3344: 3340: 3339: 3338: 3337: 3330: 3326: 3323: 3319: 3318: 3314: 3313: 3309: 3308: 3304: 3303: 3299: 3296: 3295: 3291: 3288: 3287: 3284: 3280: 3278: 3274: 3273: 3269: 3268: 3257: 3254: 3250: 3246: 3242: 3241: 3240: 3239: 3238: 3237: 3236: 3235: 3234: 3233: 3229: 3224: 3223: 3219: 3218: 3215: 3212: 3211: 3208: 3205: 3203: 3202:BookSense.com 3200: 3198: 3195: 3193: 3190: 3188: 3185: 3184: 3181: 3180:Buy this book 3178: 3174: 3173: 3172: 3171: 3168: 3162: 3159: 3155: 3147: 3144: 3140: 3137: 3133: 3129: 3125: 3122: 3119:names and 89 3118: 3113: 3112: 3109: 3105: 3104: 3101: 3098: 3096: 3093: 3090: 3089: 3088: 3087: 3084: 3080: 3076: 3072: 3064: 3061: 3057: 3053: 3049: 3045: 3044: 3043: 3042: 3039: 3031: 3028: 3025: 3022: 3021: 3020: 3019: 3012: 3009: 3008: 3004: 2999: 2995: 2992: 2988: 2984: 2983: 2982: 2977: 2974: 2970: 2967: 2965: 2962: 2958: 2955: 2953: 2950: 2946: 2941: 2938: 2936: 2933: 2929: 2926: 2925: 2921: 2917: 2911: 2905: 2902: 2901: 2897: 2895: 2894: 2891: 2890:GiorgioOrsini 2887: 2884: 2880: 2876: 2872: 2865: 2863: 2862: 2858: 2854: 2850: 2846: 2839: 2836: 2830: 2829: 2825: 2822: 2817: 2816: 2815: 2814: 2811: 2802: 2798: 2795: 2791: 2790: 2789: 2788: 2785: 2777: 2774: 2770: 2769: 2768: 2767: 2764: 2758: 2748: 2742: 2738: 2734: 2730: 2726: 2722: 2718: 2715: 2711: 2706: 2702: 2701: 2700: 2699: 2696: 2693: 2692:GiorgioOrsini 2689: 2685: 2681: 2677: 2673: 2669: 2665: 2661: 2657: 2654: 2653: 2650: 2647: 2643: 2642: 2641: 2640: 2637: 2633: 2629: 2625: 2621: 2617: 2612: 2595: 2592: 2588: 2587: 2586: 2582: 2578: 2574: 2569: 2565: 2564: 2563: 2560: 2555: 2554: 2553: 2549: 2545: 2541: 2537: 2533: 2529: 2525: 2521: 2517: 2511: 2508: 2504: 2503: 2502: 2501: 2500: 2499: 2498: 2495: 2494:GiorgioOrsini 2491: 2487: 2486: 2485: 2484: 2478: 2475: 2474: 2473: 2472: 2464: 2462: 2458: 2455:by the north 2454: 2449: 2446: 2443: 2440: 2437: 2436: 2434: 2430: 2429: 2428: 2427: 2426: 2425: 2422: 2414: 2410: 2407:by the north 2406: 2402: 2398: 2395: 2392: 2389: 2386: 2383: 2380: 2377: 2374: 2371: 2367: 2364: 2361: 2357: 2354: 2351: 2350: 2349: 2338: 2335: 2331: 2330: 2329: 2326: 2322: 2317: 2316: 2315: 2314: 2313: 2312: 2307: 2304: 2303:GiorgioOrsini 2299: 2298: 2297: 2296: 2290: 2286: 2282: 2281: 2280: 2279: 2276: 2273: 2268: 2267: 2266: 2265: 2262: 2258: 2254: 2250: 2245: 2244: 2241: 2237: 2228: 2224: 2221: 2217: 2216: 2215: 2214: 2211: 2210:GiorgioOrsini 2202: 2201: 2197: 2196: 2192: 2191: 2190: 2187: 2186: 2181: 2180: 2175: 2174: 2170: 2169: 2165: 2159: 2145: 2142: 2138: 2134: 2133: 2132: 2129: 2124: 2123: 2122: 2119: 2114: 2113: 2112: 2109: 2104: 2103: 2102: 2101: 2100: 2099: 2094: 2091: 2090:GiorgioOrsini 2087: 2084: 2083: 2082: 2081: 2074: 2073: 2072: 2071: 2065: 2064: 2063: 2062: 2059: 2056: 2051: 2050: 2047: 2044: 2043:GiorgioOrsini 2039: 2038: 2037: 2036: 2033: 2019: 2015: 2011: 2007: 2006: 2005: 2004: 2003: 2002: 2001: 2000: 1993: 1990: 1989:GiorgioOrsini 1985: 1975: 1972: 1967: 1965: 1962: 1954: 1951: 1950: 1949: 1948: 1947: 1946: 1945: 1944: 1943: 1940: 1935: 1934: 1933: 1930: 1925: 1921: 1920: 1919: 1918: 1915: 1912: 1907: 1906: 1903: 1899: 1895: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1888: 1885: 1877: 1867: 1864: 1859: 1855: 1850: 1849: 1848: 1845: 1840: 1839: 1838: 1835: 1830: 1827: 1815: 1812: 1808: 1807: 1806: 1803: 1799: 1798: 1797: 1796: 1795: 1794: 1793: 1792: 1790: 1780: 1777: 1773: 1772: 1771: 1770: 1769: 1768: 1767: 1766: 1764: 1752: 1749: 1745: 1744: 1743: 1740: 1736: 1735: 1734: 1733: 1732: 1731: 1730: 1729: 1727: 1724: 1721: 1709: 1706: 1702: 1701: 1700: 1697: 1693: 1690: 1689: 1688: 1687: 1686: 1685: 1684: 1683: 1681: 1677: 1665: 1662: 1658: 1657: 1656: 1653: 1649: 1648: 1647: 1646: 1645: 1644: 1643: 1642: 1639: 1638: 1637: 1634: 1629: 1628: 1627: 1626: 1623: 1619: 1607: 1599: 1596: 1591: 1590: 1589: 1586: 1582: 1572: 1569: 1565: 1564: 1563: 1562: 1561: 1560: 1559: 1558: 1556: 1546: 1543: 1539: 1538: 1537: 1536: 1535: 1534: 1533: 1532: 1530: 1520: 1517: 1513: 1512: 1511: 1510: 1509: 1508: 1507: 1506: 1504: 1503: 1501: 1489: 1486: 1482: 1481: 1480: 1479: 1478: 1477: 1476: 1475: 1472: 1471: 1469: 1457: 1454: 1450: 1449: 1448: 1447: 1446: 1445: 1444: 1443: 1441: 1440: 1438: 1433: 1432: 1430: 1425: 1424: 1422: 1421: 1420: 1419: 1404: 1401: 1400:GiorgioOrsini 1397: 1392: 1389: 1386: 1385: 1384: 1381: 1377: 1376:Orsini family 1373: 1372: 1371: 1368: 1364: 1363: 1362: 1361: 1358: 1357:GiorgioOrsini 1354: 1349: 1348: 1344: 1329: 1326: 1325:GiorgioOrsini 1322: 1317: 1316: 1315: 1314: 1313: 1312: 1311: 1310: 1309: 1308: 1307: 1306: 1295: 1292: 1288: 1287: 1286: 1285: 1284: 1283: 1282: 1281: 1280: 1279: 1276: 1271: 1268: 1265: 1262: 1259: 1256: 1253: 1248: 1245: 1240: 1237: 1234: 1231: 1228: 1227: 1226: 1223: 1222: 1221: 1215: 1211: 1208: 1204: 1200: 1199: 1195: 1190: 1187: 1186: 1184: 1183: 1179: 1174: 1171: 1168: 1165: 1162: 1161: 1159: 1158: 1157: 1156: 1153: 1134: 1130: 1127: 1126:GiorgioOrsini 1123: 1122: 1117: 1116: 1112: 1109: 1106: 1105: 1102: 1098: 1095: 1094: 1089: 1088: 1085: 1081: 1080: 1077: 1074: 1073: 1069: 1057: 1054: 1050: 1049: 1048: 1045: 1040: 1039: 1038: 1037: 1036: 1035: 1034: 1033: 1032: 1031: 1030: 1029: 1026: 1018:Stop edit war 1017: 1009: 1006: 1002: 1001: 1000: 999: 998: 997: 992: 989: 985: 984: 983: 982: 969: 966: 962: 961: 960: 959: 958: 957: 956: 955: 954: 953: 952: 951: 945: 944: 943: 942: 927: 924: 920: 919: 918: 917: 916: 915: 914: 913: 912: 911: 910: 909: 908: 907: 894: 891: 887: 886: 885: 884: 883: 882: 881: 880: 879: 878: 877: 876: 870: 869: 868: 865: 860: 859: 858: 857: 854: 850: 843: 833: 829: 825: 821: 817: 809: 808: 807: 806: 805: 804: 797: 794: 793: 792: 791: 790: 789: 788: 787: 778: 775: 772: 771: 770: 769: 768: 767: 762: 759: 755: 754: 753: 752: 749: 746: 742: 741: 730: 727: 723: 722: 721: 720: 719: 718: 717: 716: 715: 714: 710: 709: 698: 695: 690: 689: 688: 687: 686: 685: 684: 683: 682: 681: 677: 676: 665: 662: 657: 656: 655: 654: 653: 652: 651: 650: 649: 648: 644: 643: 632: 629: 625: 624: 623: 622: 621: 620: 619: 618: 617: 616: 612: 611: 600: 597: 592: 591: 590: 589: 588: 587: 586: 585: 584: 583: 578: 577: 566: 563: 559: 555: 554: 553: 552: 551: 550: 549: 548: 547: 546: 541: 540: 539: 538: 535: 529: 527: 521: 514: 506: 503: 499: 498: 497: 496: 495: 494: 489: 486: 482: 481: 480: 477: 473: 472: 471: 470: 467: 459: 457: 452: 449: 445: 443: 440: 436: 433: 432: 428: 423: 420: 414: 413: 409: 406: 402: 398: 394: 390: 386: 385: 381: 377: 374: 371:as per Duja. 370: 367: 365: 362: 358: 355: 354: 347: 344: 339: 338: 337: 334: 330: 327: 326: 325: 321: 319: 312: 308: 304: 300: 296: 292: 288: 284: 281: 279: 276: 273: 271: 266: 263: 259: 256: 252: 251: 250: 247: 243: 240: 239: 236: 233: 230: 227: 225: 222: 218: 215: 213: 210: 206: 203: 202: 201: 195: 193: 192: 189: 186: 183: 179: 178: 175: 171: 167: 159: 157: 154: 153: 149: 145: 141: 134: 131: 125: 124: 120: 117: 113: 112: 111: 110: 107: 101: 100: 97: 89: 87: 86: 83: 82:Noneedforthis 74: 68: 65: 62: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 5555: 5526:Dalmatinac." 5493: 5484: 5480: 5469: 5462: 5440: 5419: 5413: 5393: 5385: 5369: 5349: 5315: 5278: 5253:. See you.-- 5225: 5217: 5208: 5205: 5118: 5111: 5048: 5044: 5027: 5023: 5006: 4987: 4968: 4915: 4887: 4883: 4862: 4848: 4841: 4838: 4835: 4831: 4827: 4815: 4771: 4764: 4757: 4736: 4709: 4684: 4668:arguments.-- 4639: 4617: 4610: 4597: 4583: 4570: 4564: 4561: 4552: 4545: 4540: 4527: 4518: 4513: 4500: 4491: 4486: 4473: 4464: 4451: 4441: 4436: 4431: 4418: 4409: 4404: 4399: 4394: 4389: 4376: 4370: 4368: 4357: 4353: 4349: 4345: 4334: 4330: 4319: 4315: 4304: 4303: 4297: 4286: 4275: 4274: 4268: 4257: 4246: 4245: 4242:Simple tests 4228: 4193: 4164: 4112:nick-name.-- 4108: 4038: 4030: 4016: 4000: 3988: 3976: 3952: 3936: 3931: 3930: 3921: 3912: 3890:no consensus 3889: 3887: 3879: 3876: 3815: 3813: 3808: 3804: 3792: 3783: 3769: 3766: 3758: 3754: 3744: 3739: 3734: 3721: 3712: 3707: 3694: 3685: 3680: 3667: 3661: 3658: 3651: 3646: 3633: 3624: 3619: 3606: 3597: 3584: 3574: 3569: 3564: 3551: 3542: 3537: 3532: 3527: 3514: 3508: 3506: 3492: 3486: 3476: 3465: 3461: 3450: 3446: 3435: 3434: 3428: 3418: 3407: 3396: 3385: 3384: 3378: 3368: 3357: 3346: 3335: 3334: 3331:Simple tests 3289: 3282: 3276: 3248: 3244: 3227: 3213: 3206: 3201: 3196: 3191: 3186: 3179: 3163: 3157: 3153: 3150: 3135: 3131: 3130:name to the 3127: 3120: 3116: 3106: 3099: 3094: 3075:Fra Angelico 3067: 3055: 3051: 3047: 3035: 3015: 3010: 2986: 2980: 2973:Gene Nygaard 2968: 2956: 2944: 2939: 2927: 2903: 2882: 2878: 2869: 2844: 2842: 2834: 2831: 2806: 2780: 2752: 2720: 2687: 2683: 2679: 2671: 2663: 2659: 2610: 2608: 2527: 2523: 2520:weasel words 2505:Of course.-- 2476: 2450: 2444: 2438: 2418: 2359: 2355: 2347: 2288: 2284: 2246: 2235: 2232: 2206: 2188: 2182: 2177: 2176: 2172: 2171: 2166: 2163: 2028: 1952: 1881: 1857: 1854:Krstjan Knez 1853: 1611: 1566:Oh, my... -- 1417: 1416: 1395: 1390: 1351: 1350: 1346: 1345: 1342: 1320: 1274: 1269: 1266: 1263: 1260: 1257: 1254: 1251: 1246: 1224: 1219: 1202: 1138: 1110: 1107: 1099: 1096: 1082: 1075: 1021: 847: 820:71.252.81.35 795: 786: 785: 776: 530: 522: 518: 463: 455: 434: 418: 415: 368: 356: 317: 282: 267: 264: 241: 228: 216: 204: 199: 181: 180: 165: 163: 155: 139: 137: 129: 126: 102: 93: 78: 60: 43: 37: 5327:this x-link 5295:ok. Sorry-- 5226:Quote from 4970:"nickname". 3991:per nom. - 3809:da Sebenico 3785:I had asked 3054:meaning is 2749:banned link 2431:Looks like 1878:Suggestions 1613:identity... 1353:of Sebenico 814:—Preceding 558:the article 36:This is an 4592:Discussion 4153:PMAnderson 4141:first edit 4089:PMAnderson 4051:PMAnderson 3892:to move. — 3757:, vol. I: 3192:Amazon.com 3052:compromise 3048:compromise 3005:Discussion 2540:ad hominem 1884:Factanista 502:Factanista 476:Factanista 429:Post-close 382:Discussion 318:AjaxSmack 299:flatulence 5522:"Orsini". 5396:Aradic-en 4580:, p.286: 4461:, p.159: 4147:, below. 4019:per nom. 3789:Wknight94 3594:, p.159: 2853:Wknight94 2719:Yes, you 2085:All from 543:Kopernik. 403:: 137. -- 391:: 13700, 144:Wknight94 67:Archive 2 61:Archive 1 5459:My edits 5322:April 22 5174:El Greco 4818:BarryMar 4645:RedZebra 4640:Comment: 4618:Comment: 4356:once -- 4233:NovaNova 4169:BarryMar 4043:Masaccio 4009:RedZebra 3926:User:Evv 3797:at WP:RM 3322:BarryMar 3143:BarryMar 3132:El Greco 3071:El Greco 3060:BarryMar 2949:BarryMar 2810:RedZebra 2660:El Greco 2636:RedZebra 2532:El Greco 2433:RedZebra 2421:RedZebra 2325:RedZebra 2261:RedZebra 2240:RedZebra 2136:Italian) 2041:wrong!-- 1203:reliable 828:contribs 816:unsigned 343:RedZebra 209:RedZebra 188:RedZebra 174:RedZebra 5558:Dijxtra 5542:Šibenik 5485:ignored 5318:2 March 5186:Johnbod 5182:Ronaldo 5075:Orsini" 5068:Orsini" 5061:artist. 5026:(from " 4031:Support 4017:Support 4001:Support 3989:Support 3981:Johnbod 3977:Support 3939:Johnbod 3895:Mets501 3845:Johnbod 3834:Johnbod 3207:Froogle 3167:Johnbod 3083:Johnbod 3038:Johnbod 2969:Support 2957:Support 2940:Support 2928:Support 2784:Johnbod 2763:Johnbod 2672:Italian 2611:Changes 2524:forgery 2360:usually 2356:usually 2229:POV tag 2128:Dijxtra 2108:Dijxtra 2055:Dijxtra 1971:Dijxtra 1961:Dijxtra 1929:Dijxtra 1911:Dijxtra 1844:Dijxtra 1802:Dijxtra 1776:Dijxtra 1739:Dijxtra 1696:Dijxtra 1652:Dijxtra 1633:Dijxtra 1595:Dijxtra 1568:Dijxtra 1542:Dijxtra 1516:Dijxtra 1485:Dijxtra 1453:Dijxtra 1434:I agree 1367:Dijxtra 1291:Dijxtra 1207:Dijxtra 1044:Dijxtra 1005:Dijxtra 965:Dijxtra 923:Dijxtra 890:Dijxtra 864:Dijxtra 758:Dijxtra 726:Dijxtra 694:Dijxtra 661:Dijxtra 628:Dijxtra 596:Dijxtra 562:Dijxtra 534:Dijxtra 466:Dijxtra 448:Johnbod 435:Support 405:Dijxtra 399:: 501, 369:Support 333:Dijxtra 295:small N 275:Kafziel 265:Support 255:Dijxtra 242:Against 229:Support 221:Dijxtra 217:Support 205:Support 39:archive 5481:cannot 5312:weasel 5271:delay. 5166:Titian 5143:Orsini 5127:WP:NOR 5125:& 4954:way.-- 4563:Using 4369:Using 4229:Oppose 4194:Oppose 4165:Oppose 4109:Oppose 4003:- Per 3947:Survey 3805:Orsini 3660:Using 3507:Using 3136:Titian 3123:names. 3081:..... 3079:Titian 3017:have: 2898:Survey 2624:WP:NOR 2620:WP:NOT 2453:relief 2405:relief 2370:Venice 2253:WP:NOR 2249:WP:NOT 1084:Italy. 373:Olessi 287:Ancona 283:Oppose 196:Survey 5550:Split 5546:Zadar 5510:Zadar 5390:Names 5230:|Ceha 4797:) - 4795:diff. 4712:gives 4651:diff. 4622:WP:NC 4444:(sic) 4365:Books 4064:) - 4062:diff. 3953:Add 3858:diff. 3820:WP:RM 3577:(sic) 3503:Books 3230:name. 2961:Aldux 2904:Add 2881:into 2528:given 2489:name. 1398:!!!-- 1101:city. 580:time. 16:< 5562:talk 5536:Per 5506:bust 5443:Anto 5423:Anto 5416:Anto 5366:Duja 5335:Duja 5281:Ceha 5178:Pele 5123:WP:V 5079:..." 4899:WP:V 4897:Per 4888:real 4575:ISBN 4532:ISBN 4505:ISBN 4478:ISBN 4456:ISBN 4423:ISBN 4381:ISBN 4021:Duja 3959:or 3899:talk 3726:ISBN 3699:ISBN 3672:ISBN 3638:ISBN 3611:ISBN 3589:ISBN 3556:ISBN 3519:ISBN 2910:or 2857:talk 2845:Move 2733:Duja 2676:Duja 2668:Duja 2656:Duja 2632:NPOV 2628:WP:V 2616:diff 2577:Duja 2544:Duja 2457:apse 2409:apse 2257:WP:V 2255:and 2010:Duja 1894:Duja 824:talk 439:Anto 361:Duja 331:. -- 311:fuck 305:and 303:fart 289:and 172:. - 148:talk 142:. — 140:Move 90:Name 5508:in 5483:be 5131:Evv 5053:Evv 5011:Evv 4976:Evv 4934:Evv 4907:Evv 4853:Evv 4839:and 4799:Evv 4776:Evv 4726:... 4716:... 4697:Evv 4655:Evv 4653:). 4630:Evv 4555:Evv 4350:see 4218:Evv 4183:Evv 4128:Evv 4066:Evv 4005:Evv 3993:Evv 3864:Evv 3824:Evv 3807:or 3495:Evv 3253:Evv 2991:Evv 2727:or 2678:'s 2459:of 2411:of 2259:.-- 851:)-- 309:to 301:to 232:M K 116:M K 5564:) 5548:, 5544:, 5279:-- 5180:, 5172:, 5168:, 5151:-- 4995:-- 4834:, 4830:, 4602:→ 4344:: 4329:: 4314:: 4296:: 4285:: 4269:19 4267:: 4258:14 4256:: 4202:-- 4045:. 3916:→ 3811:. 3485:: 3477:15 3475:: 3460:: 3445:: 3427:: 3417:: 3406:: 3395:: 3377:: 3369:14 3367:: 3358:15 3356:: 3347:19 3345:: 3320:-- 3141:-- 3134:, 3077:, 2873:→ 2859:) 2760:." 2721:do 2626:, 2622:, 2492:-- 2419:-- 2270:-- 2251:, 2088:-- 1355:-- 1323:-- 1124:-- 1042:-- 862:-- 830:) 826:• 692:-- 659:-- 594:-- 437:-- 219:-- 150:) 104:-- 5560:( 5339:► 5102:. 4894:. 4346:1 4331:3 4316:6 4298:1 4287:8 4025:► 3901:) 3897:( 3487:0 3462:6 3447:3 3429:0 3419:6 3408:8 3397:3 3379:0 3292:: 3073:, 2855:( 2737:► 2581:► 2548:► 2014:► 1898:► 1113:. 822:( 272:. 146:( 50:.

Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.

Index