Talk:Giorgio da Sebenico/Archive 2

554:

Sibenicenis" (trans. "Georgius sculptor son of Matheus from Zadar citizen of Šibenik"). Those are only known signatures of the artist, however, in Sebenico there are remnants (the doorway) of the Orsini's home which he bought in June 1445 from M. Simeonich, a local nobleman. On the lintel of this old doorway is carved a bear, the heraldic emblem of the noble house of Orsini - carved by Giorgio's own hand. That is why he is also referred to as Giorgio Orsini, particularly in Italian sources. There are also references to him as Giorgio Dalmatico, or as George the Dalmatian. He is sometimes listed among Croatian sculptors in English-language sources. In Croatia, he is known under the Croatian name Juraj Dalmatinac (lit. "George the Dalmatian"). Two elementary schools in Croatia bear that name: one in Pag, and one in Šibenik. This name is stated to be a recent translation of Georgius Dalmaticus by some Italian sources. This is reportedly part of a trend of Croatization of old Venetian names. Croatian sources such as the Yugoslav Lexicographical Institute and author Cvito Fisković claim that "Orsini" was never used by the artist and it was adopted by his son, after the death of his father.

2130:

Is it controversial? No. Croatian "translation" is related to his own signature, because of the way how names were graphically written in Dalmatia. Is it controversial? No. So what the hell is controversial about his name? Only controversy comes from this talk page and innability of the wikipedians to edit this article in objective and balanced way. This is encyclopedia and this article should inform people about Georgius and not about selective wikipedian POVs! This is 2nd article you want to turn into battlefield during last week, Silvio! His work is important and not your own POV or your position in this talk page! Is it problem to only mention forms of his name without any kind of POV? And concentrate on what is important?

2702:@71.163.236.199 You are repeating yourself, sounds like a broken record, you are using ridiculuous sources, you have probably very poor knowledge about history in general and absolutely no knowledge about history of Dalmatia, you don't understand what science is, you don't understand what wikipedia is, discussion with you looks like continual turning in circles, your motivation is politics and nationalism and people like you are not welcome. Your way of discussion looks like supporting a football club, maybe you can try it in some forum. In short, you said nothing new and I see nothing to reply to. I'm asking again, if it's all you can do - please leave us. Go. 2259:

archaeologist, expert for historical architecture? There are no data about her. Who is she? What are her scientific titles? What are her references? This coat of arms and name Giorgio Orsini obviously cannot be related to our Georgius. He was not nobleman! This sentence is directly disputted by Georgius’ signature and documents produced during his life. This coat of arms and name Orsini was probably carved later by someone else and not during his life. There is not even one scientific source to claim what Mrs Alice Lee Hornor Moqué did! Her monography Delightful Dalmatia is not a scientific work, it’s fully available here

2482:

proved, and here you are showing us a case where proof was build anachronologically. And all known facts are ignored, like his signatures, documents, place of birth, Croatian to Latin graphic form of name in Dalmatia, his nickname Dalmaticus, the sculptor’s titles civis in Šibenik and habitator in Venice... It is not serious. And nothing new, concerning postion of Fisković. It was exactly what Fisković disputed. Even better, it’s all disputed by the sculptor himself and by the documents produced during his life. Please if you are not able to contribute constructively, leave us. This is not nationalistic forum.

1875:

2 ways: according to proffesion of the person; according to father's name. In this case we have second possibility. Example: if 'pater familias' (head of a house) was Matej and his son was Juraj then Juraj was Juraj Matejev (in Latin documents it would be: Georgius Mathei); if family would become more numerous in the next generations but, homogenous and coupled with the same house, there would be sufix -ić added as a sign of a "tribe" so son of Juraj would have surname Matejević. This is just example of how early Croatian surnames were formed in the beginning. From the 12/13th century.

709:

insistence that there is in fact no controversy whatsoever (when there's obviously several sources using "Giorgio da Sebenico", IOW there's no consensus that the Italian-language title is "Giorgio Orsini"), and constant refering only to their "source" which they completely fail to quantify according to established standards. In any case, all of us continuing to complain about whatever nationalism is really orthogonal to the article - how to edit articles is very well known, the policies on verifiability and referencing are pretty clear, we all know what to do. --

2617:

clear: he simply records the use of Giorgio's family name by his descendants. Who else is more authoritative to tell us what their family names were if not Giorgio (his home sales contract that named him as the home buyer) and his son and grandson?? There is no the slightest hint that Pilo ever doubted that Giorgio and his descendants weren't members of the noble House of Orsini. Sir Thomas Graham Jackson works are referenced by historians and by Encyclopedia Britannica. Croatian "historian" Fiskovic is referenced only once for talking nonsense.

1871:. These are original forms of his name at the place of his birth. Bearing in mind where and when he was born, these forms were translation to Latin. There is no doubt that his original name was Croatian, but we don't know exact graphic form of it. However Latin forms are showing that it was Juraj or Jure and his father was Matej or Mate. Later "translation" to Croatian - "Juraj Dalmatinac" and "Juraj Matejev" or "Juraj Matin" are logical suppositions of original name - Latin graphic forms are direct references. 1968:(1080), while Croatian surnames came in the 12th century, but not everywhere in the same time. However Croatian surnames appeared that early in Dalmatia, in other regions settled by the Croats later. First Croatian surnames were formed as nicknames by meaning, according to some characteristic of person like Zlurad, Varikaša, Nozdronja, Bogobojša,... (all from Zadar in 12th and 13th century) and their descendants were keeping it. Massive use of surnames in Europe was related to Trident Council (1545-1563). 1908:

France) started the concept of "Etat Civil" and enforced it for each person. In the rest of Europe it appeared during the 17th and 18th centuries. However I have no doubt that with you getting in the matter, will get to consensus about the matter in a matter of hours. From my side, I prefer to contribute on this article solely with art facts. It looks that this discussion on the name is already busy enough and I am unsure that the article is really benefiting from it.

2476:- this is exactly what Fisković disputed and not opposite. From what you have written it is obvious that Giuseppe Maria Pilo didn’t write anything new on the matter, it is just repetition of already heard, his references are probably the older Italian authors. He repeated it without any criticism. And it seems he didn’t respect scientific methodology. Anachronology is the enemy of history science and its methodology. No-criticism and anachronology - very nice. 31: 2622:

were coming from his bed. Nobody takes Fine for serious. His book is written in the worst manner comparable only to Serbian mythomaniacs. It is not serious historiography. The other scientists almost never cite Fine. He's zero. I'm glad if you are using him to prove me something. That makes you a clown. Now I'm sure you don't know what are you talking about. So much about nationalistic bias... and Fine... LOL

2546:

language was already extinct by means of its main structure, but it never died completely since many issogloses were saved in Croatian, two different groups (during 7th and 8th century) became one and the same, by all means of culture. In the 15th century they spoke Croatian. Zadar was completely Croaticized in the 13th century and Šibenik was established by the Croats in the 12th century.

2542:

think of a settler of Italian peninsula in that age, one who speaks some dialect of Italian language, as his/her own mother language. But when someone says "Croat in the 15th" I think of ethnicity, since that ethnicity existed all the time with the same name as well as political unit was there with that name. But modern Croat (nationality) is not the same as historical Croat (ethnicity).

3134: 2223:

family name had been allowed to fall into disuse His family descent from the Orsini was formally recognized in 1540 in the person of his grandson Giacomo, an advocate that Giorgio was not a native of Sebenico is proved by the description of him in several 'Atti' of 1441-1450; e.g. Magister Giorgius lapicida quondam Matthaei di Jadra, habitator Venetiarum ad praesens existens Sibenic

886:

permitted I will continue to make proposals to expand the information concerning his work. Also I think the section concerning the name it's too long and useless (indeed it looks a street fight) and should require some tiding-up. Definitely I would like not to be involved, in this article, in any issue concerning opposed nationalim or similar items. All other comments are welcome. --

1390:

Croatia, he is known under the Croatian name Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac (lit. "George of Matthias Dalmatian"). This is reportedly part of a trend of Croatization of old Venetian names. Croatian sources such as the Yugoslav Lexicographical Institute and author Cvito Fisković claim that "Orsini" was never used by the artist and it was adopted by his son, after the death of his father.

1243:. Rules are here meaningful ONLY if leading to the article quality. The quality is not in supporting nonsenses coming from an utterly annonymous author, not quoted by anyone in English language references, nor having ever validated his "discovery". The Fifth Knowledge Pillar requires not to blindly follow rules and certainly not to frivolously interpret them to justify nonsense. 2934: 2187:– quondam Mathei de Jadra! In the article 'quondam' is translated as "son of" – it is free translation and it is not valid. Latin 'quondam' means "that once was; former" – it was sign of affiliation and one of typical translations of Croatian affiliation-sufixes in surnames such as –ov, -ev, -in, as well as –ović, -ević and –inić, to Latin in Dalmatia. So 2935:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:GCC42I7nzjMJ:hrcak.srce.hr/file/97562+giorgio+da+sibinico+salme&hl=it&gl=it&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShOF4Msip6vT1M4BGL4QcLDArG3hiKHqQ5v-Bxp9py6FT_x6kyvY1ZXY5Y143H7lCAOJk_rKeWRzeYPX5JdVKNBhUUzv1Bz9QQpVk7SDqMXcl8N5bmp4JqaoXO4Bi3OvyXU2iZm&sig=AHIEtbSwzS6AP8Sb9CFpQFq3DBjTKenIrA&pli=1

2271:

adopted only by his son later and not during his life, forms in Croatian literature with note that it is supposition of his original name, based on graphic forms in his signatures in Latin. These are simple facts with quality sources without any controversy. We shouldn’t encourage future edit wars with such controversial section.

1457:

without success of course. Italian museums are more likely to use the "actual" name, followed by the "nickname, but this is much less common in the anglosphere. But in the Italian Knowledge all of that list except Raphael use the nick-name as the article title, and, as we've seen, they don't use Orsini either.

1111:

historian who ever questioned his real name. Playing with his name this way is childish. Ignorance, irresponsibility, frivolous approach, use of rules and guidances not to improve, rather to damage articles leads academics, universities and colleges to disqualify Knowledge as a valid academic source.--

3052:

and report him as Dalmatian and then for each claimed nationality the corresponding relevant sources. BTW this would make the article in line with the German and French wikipedias. Concerning Giorgio Orsini I would even dare to report any nationality in the article. This would only trigger additional

2616:

In the same line, authors who are not historians (Alice Lee Hornor Moqué, Sir Thomas Graham Jackson) are referring to documents dated back to the times of Orsini's work and life but "historian" Fiskovic contemplates that Paolo, Giorgio's son "adopted"(!!) his family name. Giuseppe Maria Pilo is quite

2389:

2) Italian author Giuseppe Maria Pilo, as a serious historian, tracks the use of Giorgio's family name by his descendants: by his son Paolo and by his grandson Giacomo. This is just in line of the proof that Giorgio belonged to the noble Italian Orsini family, which was formally recognized by a court

2258:

I’ve researched a little bit and noticed that this is the only source in the net for sentence in subject. There are no other sources. Who was the author - Mrs. Alice Lee Hornor Moqué? She wrote “carved, no doubt, by George's own hand, over this door through which he must have passed so often”. Is she

379:

The claim is a baseless disqualification of a reference. Calling upon a Knowledge's article is another bad step; Knowledge is disqualified by scholars and academics, and, therefore, not recognized as a valid academic and scholar source. Here is another, online available, source about Orsini nobility

2518:

Zenanarh, I also agree that this is not a nationalistic forum. But how should we qualify the fact that you speak of Croatian for facts happening on the 15th century? This is like speaking of Italian when referring to Cristoforo Colombo or Leonardo da Vinci. Indeed Croatian and Italian identities did

2355:

But alas, only the doorway now remains of the house which "Michelle Simeonich, a nobleman of Sebenico, sold to Giorgio Orsini for two hundred golden ducats of just and good weight", in the month of June and the year 1455. On the lintel of this old doorway is carved a bear, the heraldic emblem of the

2317:

In June 1455, Michele Simeonich, a noble of Sebenico, sold to Grigorio Orsini for 200 golden ducats 'of good and just weight' a house in the contrada of S. Gregorio, of which the position and boundaries are accurately defined in the act of the notary Manfredo Petrogna To this spot we were guided by

2254:

If there is any controversy – this is the one. For a few reasons. Only noblemen (nobiles) were allowed to have a coat of arms. It was sign of their class. There was no way that habitator or civis had it or used it.. If Georgius was civis in Šibenik then it was impossible that he had coat of arms. If

2248:

2129:

Can you explain why are you creating section "Controversy about the name"? There is no controversy about the name. He signed himself Georgius Dalmaticus and Georgius quondam Mathei de Jader. His own signatures. Is it controversial? No. Italian forms of his name appeared in Italy and Italian records.

2029:

You are right, I'm sorry but providing sources for every word will take too much time and I wanted only to explain some things to help this little community here. About first surnames in Europe - Duden: "Familiennamen", Mannheim – Leipzig – Wien – Zürich, 2000; about Croatian surnames: P. Šimunović,

1975:

was nothing but affililation (direct ancestor). Also important, Croatian surnames formd by affilation are the most numerous in the northern Dalmatia, even today. They've been saved in such form. There are plenty of it like: Marin (ancestor: Mara), Mikin (anc: Mika), Dorkin (anc: Dorka), Pajkin (anc:

1874:

5. About surnames. Maybe name-surname concept appeared in Europe in the 15th century in general. But in Croatian tradition, this concept had appeared earlier, from 12/13th century! the Croats had this concept earlier than the most of the Europeans. These first Croatian surnames were formed mostly in

1110:

The name is changed illegally, four years or now, nonsensically and infantile. There is no dilemma what was Orsini's name nor any need to use his nick here. There are more than hundred English language references where historians are not questioning his real name. Actually, I do not know any serious

1086:

I wasn't suggesting we change to this at all; the survey of English sources at the last renaming discussion - linked to by the 71 ISP just above, makes it clear enough that the present name is correct as the title in the English WP. What it:wiki does is their business, but I find it interesting that

1004:

I must confess that I do not fully understand the tecnicity of the multiple changes made to the article during the last 3 hours. On the other hand I think IMHO that 13 references to source the origin of the name it's somehow excessive. And it is really aesthetically strange (not to say awful). Is it

968:

I thought you meant more recently than 4 years ago! There have been two successful renames. I do not support the POV pushers on either side, and unlike all the nationalist obsessives on both sides I have tried to expand the material on his actual career & works, in which they are not interested

2564:

I've already explained 'quondam'. Now 'Mathei'. Naturally Georgius' name was spelled in Croatian, but written in Latin. Latin name Matthaeus or English Matthew is Croatian name Matej, and the only way to write it in Latin was Mathei. Matej and Mathei are completely identically pronounced, so Mathei

2222:

Giorgio seems to have been born at Zara. His father, Matteo, was a scion of the ancient and princely Roman house of Orsini; but the branch to which he belonged had sunk in the world, and been reduced to support itself by manual arts inconsistent with the idea of nobility as then understood, and the

2113:

In an attempt to isolate the disputed facts I have created a section "Life" and a section "Controversy about the name". Perhaps we should try to move in the first section all the undisputed information and try to reduce - as much as possible - the second one. There is also need of a reference about

1550:

Giorgio da Sebenico (Dalmatian architect and sculptor, ca. 1400-1473) Names: Giorgio da Sebenico (preferred,V,display) Georgius Matthei Dalmaticus (V) Giorgio di Matteo (V) Giorgio Orsini (V) Orsini, Giorgio (V) Giorgio Dalmatico (V) Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac (V) Juraj Dalmatic (V) Sabenico, Giorgio

1134:

Moreover the first reference used "Architecture in Italy, 1400-1500 by Ludwig H. Heydenreich, Yale University Press; Second Revised edition, 1996" to replace Orsini's name by his nick name shows just opposite: on page 101 is visible that Heydenreich knew Orsini's names - Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico,

752:

used the same first three references to support a common name of Giorgio da Sebenico, and everyone (including myself) seemed to ignore the fact that the EB1911 articles use the surname Orsini. I think that went under the radar in my case because a book search proved otherwise, but I'll have to find

229:

When using sources and "sources", please follow Knowledge guidelines strictly. There is a lot of bad and nationalistic writings coming from Croatia trying to persuade the world that those who were Italians (Polo, Orsini, Laurana, etc) were Croats. The "proving" manner is always the same - change a

114:

During his life he was never recorded as "Orsini". He was Georgius Dalmaticus in the documents. In Dalmatia personal names and surnames were usually translated to the Latin language in the documents (Georgius Dalmaticus), while spoken in Croatian in common usage (Juraj Dalmatianac). Orsini was used

2469:

Italian author Giuseppe Maria Pilo, as a serious historian, tracks the use of Giorgio's family name by his descendants: by his son Paolo and by his grandson Giacomo. This is just in line of the proof that Giorgio belonged to the noble Italian Orsini family, which was formally recognized by a court

2621:

It's very funny that you are trying to show Croatian history as something ridiculous, and you are using Fine. Because Fine is ridiculous. Fine married Serb wife, you probably know what role was played by the Serbs during last century in the western Balkans. His references about Croatia and Croats

2541:

Generalization again. What are you talking about? Regional identity, ethnicity, nation or language? No doubt, you cannot speak about nationalities in the 15th century. But who did mention nationality at all? Also you cannot equate these ethnonyms. When someone says "Italian in the 15th century" I

2141:

This is complete nonsense and not true. References 27 and 28 are articles in the newspapers?!?! Newspapers?!?! And that's how this lie is referrenced? All this section must be erased. It's enough to mention forms of his name in the lead in brackets and avoid any pretentious claims and statements.

1882:

7. In summary: this article should be renamed into original form of his name, it would be Croatian, but since we don't know real Croatian form, known graphic Latin form should be used: Georgius Mathei or Georgius Dalmaticus. All other names should be mentioned in the article with explanation that

1826:

And thanks for the google policy tip - it made an interesting reading. As pointed there I checked out Google Scholar and found that Giorgio da Sebenico returns 107 articles, Juraj Dalmatinac returns 181, and Georgius Mathei Dalmaticus returns 10. Inevitably there'll be some Croatian published and

1053:

Oh dear, things are already complicated enough to get consensus around "Giorgio Orsini" and "Girogio Da Sebenico". Also "Giorgio di Matteo" is a less frequent name given to this artist in the different sources. Indeed IMHO the article on it:wiki should be redirected to one of the two other names.

674:

To 71.191.19.40: Do not waste your time trying to improve this article. The article is "fixed" the way that reader shall believe that Orsini was not Orsini, therefore Juraj Dalmatinac, therefore a Croat. A primitive nationalistic propaganda which I see on many places in Knowledge: their terrorist

2545:

However this is off topic, since "Croatian to Latin" meant Croatian language to Latin language and not one to another nation, ethnicity or regioanl identity. There is no other name for Croatian language than Croatian language. In 15th century, in northern Dalmatia, Croatian was spoken. Dalmatian

2481:

Do you know and understand what modern scientific methodology of history science is? You are giving us travel itineraries as sources? This is not a blog, buddy, do you understand it? If one doesn’t respect methodology, it is not science. It is not enough that one author says opposite, it must be

2369:

Giorgio di Matteo Dalmata - com'egli si firma - è probabilmente nativo di Zara e certamente veneziano di formazione ancorché molto noto come Giorgio da Sebenico per avervi a lungo operato e avervi creato con la cattedrale di San Giacomo il suo capolavoro, o come Giorgio Orsini, cognome usato dal

2157:

Zenanarh, you are crossing the line. I start to believe that people aggressive like you should be avoided as much as possible. Unfortunately there is a controversy on the name if in the last week the article and its discussion suffered so many changes. I made a proposal to isolate the contested

1620:

Ladies and Gents, could you please consider that you cannot export the concept of Name+Surname to in the 15th century? Except nobility sometime people had even not a surname. Now the idea is to report the most common names. I think the three + the Croatian transcription should be considered as a

553:

His name and origin has been the source of some controversy. On the relief by the north apse of Cathedral of St.James the artist signed in Latin: "hoc opus cuvarum fecit magister Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus", and on a contract from 1441 he signed: "Georgius lapicida quondam Mathei de Jadra Civis

1859:

3. Notary developed in the cities of wider Mediterranean region, significiantly from the 12th century in Latin language, almost everywhere. Zadar notary started also in the 12th century in Latin language. All names of the citizens and other people in Zadar notar papers were translated to Latin.

1456:

carefully first. In fairness I should note that this feeling against the use of "nicknames" does seem to be a minority Italian thing. Some years ago an Italian professor tried to get the National Gallery in London to re-label its Raphaels, Tintorettos, Veroneses, Michelangelos, Titians etc etc,

1389:

References to the artist are most common under the name Giorgio da Sebenico, and as Giorgio Orsini, particularly in Italian sources. There are also references to him as Giorgio Dalmatico, or as George the Dalmatian. He is sometimes listed among Croatian sculptors in English-language sources. In

885:

I have corrected some grammar (at least I think, may be a mother tongue can verify), expanded the secion "Work", removed some useless information (no reason in this article to explain Dubrovnik, named at that time Ragusa part of the Republic of Ragusa, bla bla bla) and reorganised some text. If

2270:

So my suggestion is to remove any non-existant controversy from the article. This section must be removed. We can mention all forms of his name in the lead, with explanations, his own signatures, forms in Italian literature with note that Orsini appeared as anachronology since this surname was

1907:

Also this fact that Croatian had the concept of name-surnames before the rest of Europe tis also quite funny. Indeed, it looks that you are quite a funny guy. The concept of Surname existed already at Roman time, but it was not before the beginning of 16th century that first countries (such as

1878:

6. Georgius went to Venice to learn his occupation better, by means of stylization. In Venice, documents and notar papers were written in Venetian language - all names were translated to Venetian. Therefore all Venetian forms of his name are not original and were used only in Venice and Italy.

708:

Exactly, and this user is no exception - they just continue the same trend. I forced myself to read through the latest diatribe and fixed one of the glaring problems they mentioned, but the bulk of the complaint has no less glaring problems of their own, such as the obvious sockpuppetry, silly

1960:

A few details for you. Modern concept of name-surname appeared first in the most economically and culturally developed Medieval states, in northern Italy and southern France, according to different authors in 8th, 9th or 11th century. Surnames were first used by higher city classes - noblemen

3194:

I am including the warning above to all current participants, the continued edit war on this page is disruptive, as is a lot of discussion on this talk page. Given the recent edit war going back to Christmas and then reigniting a few days ago I have protected the page for 7 days so that the

2074:

Zenanarh, you talk a lot. Too much indeed, and often without reason. You can see higher in this talk that I had already said that only people from noble and rich people. The issue with surnames before the enforcing of "Etat Civil" is that only part of the people had vital records recorded

1589:

I am not sure that my modification will create some consensus. However it is in harmony with the sources of the article. However when I see the huge discussion about the name I doubt it will resist. Still I believe the section about the name is too large compared to rest of the article.

2264:

Her statements are not referenced in the book. In all book there is not even one reference at all. It is just travel itinerary of an amateur. Therefore this statement cannot be taken for serious and especially not to dispute conclusion of a scientist. And this source cannot be used as

3214:

Aparently you are on the side of your friend Joy which way you are shielding forgeries and inaccuracies exposed and visible in this article. This way both of you are ruining credibility of Knowledge as a source of knowledge. You did not warn others, you warned only those your friend

342:

You already got reference and the text quoted as "Michelle Simeonich, a nobleman of Sebenico, sold to Giorgio Orsini for two hundred golden ducats of just and good weight". In order to get the microfilmed copy of the home purchase contract, contact Venetian republic archive at

281:

JLZ 'references' are un-scholastic, based on figments of someone's imagination and projection of nationalistic attitude. Claim that 'there is only signature' and that he never used his name (Girogio Orsini) is a nonsense. His signature on the home purchase contract is "Giorgio

2242:...however, in Sebenico there are remnants (the doorway) of the Orsini's home which he bought in June 1445 from M. Simeonich, a local nobleman. On the lintel of this old doorway is carved a bear, the heraldic emblem of the noble house of Orsini - carved by Giorgio's own hand. 2716:

BTW, Einstein was married to Croatian woman. But it didn't make him great scientist. His work did. What Fine wrote in his book was full of extreme nationalistic ideas of Serbian extremists, already very well known to us - and that's what makes him irrelevant. His work. Bye.

617:

Add his real name into the lead paragraph. There is enough and firm evidence what his, given at birth names, were. References (Giorgio da Sebenico) used to "prove" that his real name was "da Sebenico" are claiming just the opposite: Orsini (, the third one is a defunct

2158:

sections from the sections that are not contested in order to facilitate the improvement of the article. If you dislike it, you can undo it. I also thing the article is full of POV's (from both parties) but perhaps we need people with a calmer attitude to solve it. --

456:

So, once again, to be able to claim your point of view is so superior to all others that others do not even deserve to be mentioned (other than by way of ridicule), you need to provide more tangible proof that that is possible, otherwise it's a blatant violation of

346:. Your 'integration' of the previously added text does not prove what you wanted to prove: Orsini was not Orsini. Two references are proving the opposite. As to the reading, my advice to you is to read and learn more about civilty and academic attitude and ethics.-- 2238:

Italian forms of name came from Italian documents during his life and work in Italy, however he was never Orsini, during his life. Orsini was adopted by his son in Venice. But here in the article there is strange statement which is obviousaly edited to dispute it:

559:

suffers from an editorial approach offering arbitrary conclusion based on very narrow selection of (Croatian) sources. These sources are not referencing any valid and existing documents or records dated back to the times of Orsini's life and work. In particular:

1281:

There are not evidences but only suppositions about he was an Orsinis. Also in Italy "Giorgio Orsini" is less used than "Giorgio da Sebenico", "Giorgio di Matteo" or "Giorgio Dalmata". Here you can see that the surname "Orsini" was adopted by his son in 1512:

465:, where the second entry says that his grandson "was formally recognized as a bonafide Orsini", implying that his predecessors weren't recognized as such. I'd first read those entire two pages before even attempting to cast judgement as bluntly as you have. -- 380:

heraldics: "The old bell tower is decorated with a Roman funerary relief, while the church has a couple of bears holding a rose: the rose is an element of the Orsini's coat of arms, while the bear (orso in Italian) is a traditional reference to the Orsini."

534:

So Messer Antonio gave place to Messer Giorgio Orsini of Zara. He came of the noble and ancient house of the Orsini — the little bears — of Rome, but his branch of this noble family had come down in the world and had earned its living with hand and brain;

1764:

What do you mean "Croatian Google search" - the search was limited to English language and US/UK based sites. Granted, some US servers will host Croatian and Italian sites, but that cannot be helped here. If you refer to google.hr/google.com difference,

193: 2519:

not exist at the time. Extending the concept of nation (expecially for young countries such Italy and Croatia) to the Middle Age is a pure no-sense. If only we could agree on this, 99.9% of the issues of this article (and many others) would not exist.

2333:

way, on the lintel of which is carved, by the hand no doubt of Grigorio himself, the bear that symbolized his ancestral house of Orsini, while on each jamb, amid pendent bouquets of flowers, hang the mallet and chisels of his sculptor's art (vid. Fig.

2191:

is exactly name, surname and original city of the family. So there’s also chance that Mathei was not his father, Mathei could have been his grandfather or any direct male ancestor. Since quondam Mathei points to surname in Dalmatia, obviously Croatian

3284:

At the center of the port stands the Loggia dei Mercanti, constructed in the 15th-century Venetian Gothic style. This was the merchants' exchange, the work of a Dalmatian, Giorgio Orsini, and the best monument to Ancona's heyday as a great maritime

2030:"Hrvatska prezimena", Zagreb: Golden marketing-Tehnička knjiga, 2006 and "Razvitak imenske formule u Hrvata", Onomastica Jugoslavica, 9, Zagreb, 1982, 283–293. If you want me to source anything else I wrote, please specify what you're pointing to. 2785:

Do you have the Galvani book? It is not clear to understand what he wrote. I used Treccani: "Il cognome Orsini, comunemente assegnato a G. nel passato, in realtà fu adottato dal figlio Paolo molto tempo dopo la morte del padre (Galvani, p. 162)."

1749:

Hardly! That's a Croatian google search, and there's a cruise ship & God knows what else, just in the first page of Juraj Dalmatinac. Note how the first page of Giorgio da Sebenico actually contains reference sources on the artist, in strong

1283: 2173:

OK, Grifter has removed pieces, but all this section is still disaster, in my thinking. Controvresy about name and origin is artificially produced, it's not scientific level, it's amateur level from newspapers, blogs, nationalistic forums

3289: 2646:

So, this is your response to your question "Do you know and understand what modern scientific methodology of history science is?"? Then, Einstein was married to a Serbian woman leads to this conclusion: "He's zero."?? "That makes you a

1401:

d) "This is reportedly part of a trend of Croatization of old Venetian names." - flagrantly POV. "Juraj Dalmatinac" is a name invented in the second half of 19 century. Giorgio Orsini nor his contemporaries never used these nonsensic

1398:

c) "Cvito Fisković claim that "Orsini" was never used by the artist and it was adopted by his son, after the death of his father.: is a nonsense for not based on any records or documents dated back to the times of Orsini's life and

2672:

When historians are referring to the medieval Italy, the references are out of the context of any idea of nation. It's all about a predefined and well-known historic, cultural, and civilization realm and about the people who lived

1935:- It has nothing to do with fun or me, it is one simple fact related to Croatian language, it is very well known fact to those who deal with linguistics, or to those who deal with Croatistics - it is not known to you. Not my fault. 675:

Zvonko Busic (who killed a policeman and wounded three others) is emigrant and freedom fighter, Starcevic, who was a provincial politician and rabid racist - democrat, writer, etc, etc. Knowledge is no more than a disordered blog.--

2806:

So what? You uncritically took over somebody's else forgery?? In Annuario Dalmatico 1884, Dr. Galvani provided information about the home sale contract where Giorgio Orsini was named as the home buyer. What Dr. Galvani said there

1304:

False statement. There is a home sales contract where Giorgio Orsini was named as buyer. There are real estate property documents showing that Giorgio Orsini owned homes in Venice, which he left to the Venetian Republic after his

693:

Not really, but the article has been plagued by (frankly) obsessive Italian nutters and obsessive Croatian nutters, none of whom are actually in the slightest bit interested in Georgio or his work except as a nationalist trophy.

733:: Please comment on content, not on users! Giorgio Orsini was a medieval Italian and a representative of Italian Renaissance. Street language as "nationalist trophy" is not welcome here along with the rest of your comment.-- 804:

Renaming the article was against consensus. Therefore all your support to use his nick instead his given at birth names is pointless. Please, follow Knowledge rules strictly. I reverted your changes finding them against

2342:

Giorgio Orsini died in 1475, and, so far as I can ascertain, at Sebenico, where he had a house on the doorway of which he carved the bear, the badge of his family, and the mallet and chisels and other implements of his

1551:

Da (V) Giorgio Da Sabenico (V) Georgius lapicida quondam Mathei de Jadra (V) Dalmatinac, Juraj (V) Dalmata, Giorgio (V) Giorgio Dalmata (V) Juraj Mateev Dalmatinac (V) Giorgio di Matteo da Zara (V) Zorzi di Mathio (V)

1883:

these other forms were translations to other languages. My propisition is writing section only about his name in the beginning of the article. It is disaster how the article looks like on this matter at the moment.

2370:

figlio Paolo dal 1512, ufficialmente dal 1516, e confermato al nipote Giacomo nel 1540 dal governatore veneziano della Dalmazia Valerio Orsini quando lo dichiara, anche con i progenitori "ex nostra stirpe Ursina".

2605:

Early medieval Croatian history fits the concluding line to the old jingle: the more you study the less you know. When I was an undergraduate studying Balkan History I thought I knew quite a bit about Croatia;

1903:

Zenanarh, this is a good one. Thank you. I am impressed that you know so many things about this artist, when even the date of death is so uncertain (uncertain to the point that even the year is not sure...).

1284:

http://books.google.it/books?id=n14xAQAAIAAJ&q=giorgio+da+sebenico+%22famiglia+orsini%22&dq=giorgio+da+sebenico+%22famiglia+orsini%22&hl=it&sa=X&ei=Q57tTvbXOoqbOsmNnZUI&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBQ

1404:

e)More than twenty references are used pointlessly as a "proof" of "His name and origin has been the source of some controversy.". Which of these, excluding Croatian sources ever questioned his real name?

2255:

Georgius was habitator in Venice then he was not nobleman in Venice, so this coat of arms in Šibenik cannot be related to his possible noble status in Venice. Tere were no noblemen by name Orsini in Zadar.

917:

We now reduced the name controversy to a single editorial paragraph with a bunch of references; the rest is mainly factoids, and the lead section is clean. Let's see if this compromise holds for a while.

147:

Thomas Graham Jacksons' accomplishments notwithstanding, Johnbod is right. – Besides, the claim is clearly attributed & referenced; each reader can decide by himself what to think of it. :-) Regards,

90:

Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria, with Cettigne in Montenegro and the Island of Grado: With Cettigne in Montenegro and the Island of Grado By Thomas Graham Jackson Clarendon press, Oxford 1887 page 389

3290:

http://books.google.com/books?id=3Q-f4bNWWgcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=frommer%27s+italy+2012&sa=X&ei=fjoyT8OMH8jptQaLz6T2Aw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Giorgio%20Orsini&f=false

582:

editorial opinion defeated by, at least, 100 English language references using exclusively his correct names (Giorgio Orsini). Reference is not Italian source, it's English book translated into Italian.

2766:

The concluding statement of the Italian historian G. M. Pilo is clear: ... dal governatore veneziano della Dalmazia Valerio Orsini quando lo dichiara, anche con i progenitori "ex nostra stirpe Ursina".

1856:

2. Zadar was not settled by the Venetians or Italians, except a few administrators and employees. of the Venetian Republic (from 1408), in Zadar surrounding there were no Italians or Venetians at all.

368:

fails to mention any such emblem (at least I don't see a bear on the coat of arms pictured there) and the reference uses editorializing style so it doesn't seem any less fishy than e.g. the JLZ claims.

600:

Croatian sources such as the Yugoslav Lexicographical Institute and author Cvito Fisković claim that "Orsini" was never used by the artist and it was adopted by his son, after the death of his father.

83:

Croatian sources such as Yugoslav Lexicographical Institute and author Cvito Fisković claim that "Orsini" was never used by the artist and it was adopted by his son, after the death of his father..

2954:

For many many others, clearly he was an Italian. Dalmatia that time was no more than Venetian province. You've got references supported by documents confirming his noble House of Orsini lineage.--

1696: 1692: 2763:

does not support claim saying Orsini never used his family name nor that his son "adopted" their family name. This forgery was entered on the Italian article version and, accordingly, removed.

1808:

is also irrelevant. Would you be so kind then to point me to what kind of sources would be acceptable? Maybe we should then change the article title to Georgius Mathei Dalmaticus - after all

166:

The Jackson's book clearly references a document found in the state archives of the Venetian Republic. Croatian 'sources' are just figment of wishes to write history the way it suits them.--

825:

The article has not been renamed. Vast numbers of articles do not use the name (usually in Latin) recorded on birth certificates, and that is no argument. You do not have consensus at all.

1219:

My patience with this anonymous user is exhausted. I think the re-adding of tags is borderline acceptable. If unproductive edits escalate, they should be treated with an enforcement of

3180: 3150: 1396:

b) "References to the artist are most common under the name Giorgio da Sebenico,..." is opinion not based on the facts which was already defeated when trying to rename this article.

2565:

is Croatian name 100%, get it? Only blind cannot see it. You probably don't see it because you don't know that Matej is real name in Croatian. That's why quondam Mathei = Matejev.

2235:

So according to his own signatures and documents produced during his life, we know that he was Dalmatian, his family was from Zadar or Zadar region, he was an immigrant in Venice.

786:

I put sources found there into inline references. It looks a bit spammy in the lead, but hopefully there'll be less controversy about the source for the current article title. --

624:

Add separate paragraph "Juraj Dalmatinac" where shall be explained origins and use of this name and the Croatian attitude toward this Italian medieval sculptor and architect.--

2985:

Grifter72 I agree. Indeed I do not understand why there is so broad resistance(both from Italian and Croatian users) to consider him and Luciano Laurana as Dalmatian. --

2596:

The early medieval Balkans: a critical survey from the sixth to the late twelfth century by John Van Antwerp Fine; University of Michigan Press, May 15, 1991, page 248:

1131:

Earlier line of POV and inaccuracies is maintained. There is a stubborn attempt to question Orsini's names based on baseless statement of an anonymous Croatian author.

593:

This name is stated to be a recent translation of Georgius Dalmaticus by some Italian sources. This is reportedly part of a trend of Croatization of old Venetian names.

1770: 1766: 2211:(the lowest class – immigrants, workers, paisants,...) in Europe from the 12th century and later on. According to his signature, he was a member of cives in Šibenik. 1674: 1670: 428:. Providing contact information for a library and linking some apparently personal website doesn't have much more weight than making statements on talk. Please read 364:

The source quoted in the article says that a bear was carved onto the house, an emblem of the Orsinis. However, there are two obvious issues with that - the article

2875:

I've added (copied) this subtitle from the Simple English. Previous text contains false claim (Orsini never used his family name) falsely referencing Dr. Galvani.--

2219:

Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria, with Cettigne in Montenegro and the Island of Grado by Sir Thomas Graham Jackson, published in 1887 by Clarendon press, Page 389:

1994:

in "Povaljska listina" (Šimunović, 1982: 284–285). In this case Vlčinić is patronimic/affilation formed from name Vlčina (archaic name which will be modern Vučina).

1806: 300:

Unfortunately this article suffers from editors with both Italian and Croatian nationalist POVs. Removing en masse discussion of the issue does not help your case.

2614:

So, that comes from someone who is university professor and historian; no doubt at what level is the "modern scientific methodology of history science" in Croatia.

1707: 1703: 1022:

Seconded! Btw, I've just looked at the Italian article, called Giorgio di Matteo, which starts: "Giorgio di Matteo o Giorgio di Sebenico o anche Giorgio Orsini".

2909: 2365:↑ Per trecentosettantasette anni: la gloria di Venezia nelle testimonianze artistiche della Dalmazia by Giuseppe Maria Pilo, Edizioni della Laguna, 2000, page 37 1685: 1681: 1540: 2232:. Here we can see that he was habitator in Venice! Member of the lowest city class – habitatores (immigrants or economical immigrants – workers, paisants,...). 1933:

Also this fact that Croatian had the concept of name-surnames before the rest of Europe tis also quite funny. Indeed, it looks that you are quite a funny guy.

1621:

maximum (and possibly we should restrict to two + Croatian transcription). This was the reason of my contribution. However, no surprised it did not resist. --

3174: 1715:

All the searches were limited to the exact phrase found in English language documents, limited to the USA (the first figure) and the UK (the second figure.--

1664:

I'm not so sure about the claim that "Giorgio da Sebenico" is preferred in English. A Google search is not a definitive measure for this but consider this:

2894:

I do not see many references marking him as a Dalmatian. But, I see many talking about him as of a sculptor and an architect of the Italian Renaissance.--

1247:, thanks for confirming my statement: Ludwig H. Heydenreich is aware of the Orsini's family name. Heydenreich is not claiming that Orsini is not Orsini.-- 3184: 3107: 2310:↑ Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria, with Cettigne in Montenegro and the island of Grado, Volume 1 by Sir Thomas Graham Jackson; Clarendon press, 1887. 1415:

b) 'Giorgio Orsini' is prevalent in the English language references. Attempt to prove "da Sebenico' as the prevalent one already failed which is visible

901:

Great! The name section I think needs to be full, as there has been so much argument over it. Stuff removed is likely to come back at some time anyway.

858: 3173:, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks, a revert limitation, or an article ban. The Committee's full decision can be read in the 2608:

but as I study more about Croatia, one by one the "facts" that I knew before turn out to be dubious, based on questionable sources or no sources at all.

1773:

on the UK servers. Even if we are to disqualify a half of the results for one reason or another, the name would still be three times as commonly used.--

1990:

And this group is the oldest and the most numerous, one of the oldest surnames of this group (with -ić added as a sign of "tribe" or wider family) was

2442:

seems to have been a notable architect. We're continuing to quote that person's work elsewhere in this article - should we discontinue doing that? --

3003: 2610:

Most of the existing literature in western languages on medieval Croatia is extremely poor; and frequently it is marred by nationalistic bias.

429: 2378:

Ci siamo dilungati un po' a parlare del figlio Paolo per dimostrare che con era poi quella figura "insignificante" come vorrebbe il Fiskovic.

1419:. Later, one user (possibly the same user who wanted to change name or his puppet) renamed the article not trying to achieve consensus see it 3254: 3216: 2955: 2854: 2816: 2771: 2736: 2674: 2648: 2393: 2338:↑ A holiday in Umbria: with an account of Urbino and the Cortegiano of Castiglione by Sir Thomas Graham Jackson, J. Murray, 1917, page 38 2463:

Another travel itinerary. Very nice. This one is available online, take a look what style of writing it is. Like Mrs Alice in Wonderland.

1827:

Italian published articles adding to either variant frequency, but I'd say there overall about even contributions from the two nations.--

1108:

Your reverts and comments are strictly in the line of Croatian "historians" and their followers, which is nothing else than puppeteering.

265:

I've made an effort and integrated the new content. There actually wasn't a whole lot of it, and I won't discard it as "unreliable" :P --

3053:

discussion.* I learnt about the writings in glagolitic working on this article on en:wiki. I have no reference on my sources of this. --

1976:

Pajko), Grgurev (anc: Grgur), Blaslov (anc: Blasul), Dundov (anc: Dundo) etc. Georgius Mathei - surname Mathei belongs to this group.

1494: 1428: 1306: 1248: 1136: 1112: 954: 806: 769: 734: 659: 625: 518: 489: 482:

There is no nonsense here... Juraj and Giorgio mean the same thing: "George". The former is the Slavic version, the latter Italian.

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references en masse as "unreliable", and added two Italian books dated 1917. What can I say - that's classic point-of-view pushing. --

59: 603:

apparent nonsense defeated by the existence of the home sale contract available in a microfilm record in the Venetian state archives.

1166: 508:

Juraj Dalmatinac is a nonsense invented by Croatian 'historians'. Europe does not know anything about Juraj, only about Giorgio.

211: 3142: 2910:

http://www.getty.edu/vow/ULANFullDisplay?find=Giorgio+da+Sebenico&role=&nation=&prev_page=1&subjectid=500003656

2374:↑ Atti e memorie della Società dalmata di storia patria, Volume 6 Società dalmata di storia patria, La Società, 1969 page 164 1239:

So, what's the point? You have to understand that nonsensic play with names of the world-renown artist has nothing to do with

95:

His family descent from the Orsini family was formally recognized in 1540 in the person of his grandson Giacomo, an advocate.

2811:) can be understood only as "started using" which is far from Fiskovic's nonsensic claim. Rejection of Fiskovic is given in 2813:

Atti e memorie della Società dalmata di storia patria, Volume 6 Società dalmata di storia patria, La Società, 1969 page 164

2356:

great house of Orsini - carved, no doubt, by George's own hand, over this door through which he must have passed so often.

2249:

great house of Orsini - carved, no doubt, by George's own hand, over this door through which he must have passed so often.

942:

that attempt to rename this article was defeated. Later, one user renamed the article not trying to achieve consensus see

575:

false statement; a reference is available, quoting a home sale contract where Giorgio Orsini was named as the home buyer.

2760:

F. A. Galvani, Il re d'armi di Sebenico con illustrazioni storiche, Venice, Dr. v. P. Naratovich, 1884, page 160, n. 2.

2412:

A holiday in Umbria: with an account of Urbino and the Cortegiano of Castiglione, Sir Thomas Graham Jackson, J. Murray,

1336: 1069: 351: 287: 235: 3002:

Clear, Luciano Laurana was Dalmatian. Also I didn't find references about "glagolitic notes". The book should be this:

1005:

possible to remove only some of them and keep only the most notable. At the end of the day this page is about art... --

3166: 38: 1363: 2787: 589:

this sentence is completely out of the context; all section is of biographical type and about Orsini's early life

3253:

The proof you are asking for, is provided by you, like it or not. Just read the note you left on my talk page.--

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This reference appears to be of very little significance, because it's mentioned only once in passing in this

3004:

http://libero.academia.edu/SiekieraAnna/Books/1193732/Bernardino_Baldi_Descrittione_del_palazzo_ducale_dUrbino

1853:

1. Only a few details are known about him: he was born in surrounding of Zadar in 1410, he was a village kid.

1515:

It was a 4:5 no consensus, with several POV Croatian and Italian editors involved opposing it. The idea that

2497: 1490: 1453: 640: 493: 347: 283: 231: 3157:. Discretionary sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the 3158: 2260: 1498: 1478: 1445: 1432: 1310: 1252: 1140: 1116: 958: 810: 738: 663: 629: 522: 396: 171: 3304: 2899: 2880: 2439: 1731:

As Silvio said name-surname concept cannot be readily exported to the 15th century, and it appears that

680: 2245:

ref. 6 - Lee Hornor Moqué, Mrs. Alice (1914). Delightful Dalmatia. Funk & Wagnalls company. p. 109.

2230:

Magister Giorgius lapicida quondam Matthaei di Jadra, habitator Venetiarum ad praesens existens Sibenic

1413:

a) Put back his real name as the article title for being illegaly changed and against Knowledge policy.

3092: 3058: 2990: 2524: 2163: 2119: 2080: 2049: 1916: 1899:"There is no doubt that his original name was Croatian, but we don't know exact graphic form of it.". 1732: 1626: 1595: 1486: 1482: 1449: 1240: 1201: 1059: 1010: 891: 850: 514: 485: 388: 207: 199: 100: 1394:

a) Orsini's names given at his birth are Giorgio Orsini, nick names da Sebenico, Dalmata, di Mateo.

108: 87:

based on reading the archived discussion and finding this information from a really credible source

3295:

It looks like our sockpuppeter was using Google Books searches to support their case, but badly. --

3170: 3162: 3077: 3038: 3011: 2975: 2944: 2920: 2838: 2795: 2692: 2426: 2387:

1) It is quite clear that Giorgio used his family name along with the heraldic emblem of his family

2017: 1964:

in the 11th century Croats were using adjectives which meant affililation to direct ancestor, like

1791:. Anyway, quality, not quantity, is what's important. See what the policy says on google searches. 1654: 1610: 1574: 1485:. Evidence is already given and visible. Your sock or you illegaly changed the name. Did you read 1371: 1344: 1325: 1291: 1077: 1044: 195:: It states his native name was Giorgio Orsini, called by the people that time Giorgio il Dalmata. 3242: 3204: 2722: 2707: 2633: 2570: 2551: 2505: 2487: 2290: 2276: 2147: 2098: 2064: 2035: 1999: 1981: 1940: 1929:- I didn't say a lot about this artist at all. I wrote: Only a few details are known about him... 1888: 1832: 1817: 1778: 1740: 1720: 953:) is blindly supporting the Croatian POV pushers without serious involvement in the discussion.-- 120: 2075:

officially. And first vital records started in Europe only at the beginning of 16th century. --

944:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Giorgio_da_Sebenico&diff=158657189&oldid=150572553

940:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Giorgio_da_Sebenico/Archive_1#Requested_Move_to_Giorgio_da_Sebenico

3049: 2285:

I can change it but I don't want to start edit war, so I'd like to hear other opinions first.

1796: 1755: 1559: 1524: 1462: 1355: 1268: 1209: 1163: 1092: 1027: 974: 906: 830: 699: 392: 305: 167: 136: 2351:↑ Delightful Dalmatia by Alice Lee Hornor Moqué; Funk & Wagnalls company, 1914, page 109 1151: 849:

If scores of relevant English-speaking art historians use it, it's not just a "nick", it's a

3025:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Luciano_Laurana&diff=428052482&oldid=427829918

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Thank you Zenanarh, this "little community here" really needs your help and explanations. --

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Monsignor Fosco, the bishop and historian of Sebenico, and there sure enough we saw a door-

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Please, make Knowledge free of nonsense and enyclopaedic by filtering out the nonsenses.

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You're welcome. I'm sure you need it definitely. Why are you mad? You have no reason. :)

2929:

A guy that was probably born in Dalmatia (Zara/Zadar) and lived especially in Dalmatia (

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That is why he is also referred to as Giorgio Orsini, particularly in Italian sources.

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3) So, Fiskovic wrote a nonsense, which was refuted in the second Italian reference--

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http://www.archive.org/stream/inobilieilclerod00miag#page/26/mode/2up/search/acquisto

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http://www.google.it/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22giorgio+di+matteo%22&btnG=

994: 923: 866: 791: 777: 758: 714: 648: 470: 437: 329: 270: 254: 116: 1961:(nobiles) and the richest families. Later it was used by the rest of population too. 1554:

As usual, we should not mention all these in the article, only the few most common.

1385:

The whole paragraph is completely un-encyclopaedic and against Knowledge guidelines

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participants here can discuss the proposed changes. Changes should be supported by

2626: 2460:

Delightful Dalmatia, Mrs. Alice Lee Hornor Moqué; Funk & Wagnalls company, 1914

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Why this page was moved to "Giorgio da Sebenico" and not to "Giorgio di Matteo"? --

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from Dalmatia by Oona Howard Butlin Ball, Faber & Faber limited, 1932 page 107

2413: 586:

Two elementary schools in Croatia bear that name: one in Pag, and one in Šibenik.

1425:

c) List separately nick names without extensive and pointless list of references

1359: 1263:

No one says he is, and that name is well-covered and referenced in the article.

425: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

2687:

What a mess, you are completely out of time. ip, do not delete my sentences! --

2093:

What you have written is generalization and has nothing to do with the matter.

1364:

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/giorgio-da-ragusa_(Dizionario-Biografico)/)

1162:

by Ludwig H. Heydenreich, Yale University Press; Second Revised edition, 1996,

3276: 2788:

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/giorgio-da-ragusa_(Dizionario-Biografico)/

2735:"Einstein was married to Croatian woman"?? :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))-- 2430: 3070:

http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924061776252#page/n51/mode/2up/search/baldi

3072:

I don't know if "Caratteri e linguaggio sclavone" can means "glagolitic". --

989:

archive you linked. Can you please stop with this pointless argument now? --

1735:, as far as English language sources are concerned, is Juraj Dalmatinac.-- 381: 3296: 3111: 2443: 2137:

This is reportedly part of a trend of Croatization of old Venetian names.

1224: 990: 985:

The 2007 rename was done according to the move request elaborated in the

919: 862: 787: 773: 754: 710: 644: 466: 433: 325: 266: 250: 2199:– civis is a member of the Medieval city class cives. City classes were 1519:

is my sock-puppet will strike many experienced editors as richly comic.

3154: 149: 320:

That's great. Provide references for the said claim! Also try reading

2347:

Illustrated in my Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria, vol. i. p. 406.

3229:

Actually I didn't know Joy at all a before the report they filed at

1809: 568:

personal, editorial opinion not found in English language references

131:

A book of 1887 is unlikely to contain the last word on the matter.

1335:

June 1455, Calle San Gregorio. What is the name in that contract?

3048:

In the case of Laurana I sustain the very same approach used for

1769:

yields 33,000 results for Juraj Dalmatinac in case of the US and

1320:

Could you please provide sources about this? It was published? --

1427:

d) Drop the whole paragraph quoted above as POV and inaccurate--

3199:

and editors should be working together to achieve consensus. --

2438:

You've dismissed this out of hand, but it should be noted that

1539:

The most authoritative source on variants of artist names, the

3153:) on any editor who is active on pages broadly related to the 3149:

to impose discretionary sanctions (information on which is at

2179:

According to his own signatures, we know what was his origin.

246: 25: 3108:

Knowledge:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Luciano di Martino

1927:

I am impressed that you know so many things about this artist

3030: 2301:

Giorgio Orsini is Orsini. Please, stop propagating nonsense!

1957:. Please concentrate yourself and don't manipulate my words. 565:

His name and origin has been the source of some controversy.

3175:

Knowledge:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#Final decision

2185:

Georgius lapicida quondam Mathei de Jadra Civis Sibenicenis

461:. In fact, I googled the listed reference and came up with 1543:

from the Getty Institute, has not been mentioned recently:

3179:

Please familiarise yourself with the information page at

1135:

Yet another proof of arbitrary approach to references. --

596:

both sentences are an editorial opinion about references

3181:

Knowledge:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions

3151:

Knowledge:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions

3024: 1863:

4. In Zadar notar papers and documents he was noted as

1420: 943: 749: 420:

The policy about sourcing is pretty clear - you should

1639:

2 Zorzi di Mathio (Venetian - probably his real name)

2325:

Vid. Annuario Dalmatico 1884, Article by Dr. Galvani

2195:

There’s another important detail in his signature -

2012:

Zenanarh, you are writing without provide sources.--

1183:...as important as Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico and... 2809:

Il re d'armi di Sebenico con illustrazioni storiche

1645:

4 Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac (translated in Croatian)

2915:For Getty, "Italian" is only the third option. -- 1204:. Is this you again Giovanni? Long time, no see! 770:Talk:Giorgio_da_Sebenico/Archive_1#Simple_tests_2 572:Those are only known signatures of the artist ... 1448:, & see how well it does. I suugest reading 1169:, p.74, 80, 101, 183 (index) & 184 (index): 748:I reviewed the latest edits and found that even 544:Editorial, factual accuracy - Early life section 245:Oh for goodness sake, you just outright removed 621:Remove completely the above mentioned paragraph 230:man's (Italian) name into some Croatian name.-- 3125:Discretionary Sanctions & Page Protection 2496:About wiki policy on the use of sources read 1360:http://www.hart.hr/uploads/documents/1291.pdf 8: 1636:1 Giorgio da Sebenico (preferred in English) 1642:3 Giorgio di Matteo (translated in Italian) 3185:Knowledge:Arbitration Committee/Procedures 3128: 2306:Here are three English language references 1087:even they only give Orsini as 3rd choice. 949:Then there is apparent sockpuppeteering: ( 859:Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni 2425:Thanks God you didn't use Dead Kennedys, 1481:attempt already failed for being against 1381:Stubborn POV and inaccuracies, editorials 1193:Orsini, Giorgio, see Giorgio da Sebenico. 2418:Subject: Castiglione, Baldassarre, : --> 2407:Two English language "sources" are joke. 1173:...by Giorgio da Sebenico, whose hand... 969:at all, as at other Adriatic hot-spots. 3169:. If you continue with the behavior on 2970:Venetian Republic was multiethnical. -- 2135:This section is full of POVs. Example: 1127:Earlier POV and inaccuracies maintained 1955:earlier than the most of the Europeans 1444:Zzzzzz! You are welcome to open a new 1154:actually said in the 2007 move debate: 658:No. Comment on content only, please.-- 613:Fix the year of his death (1473 -: --> 430:Knowledge:Identifying reliable sources 115:by his descendents! Never by himself! 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2114:his life. May be someone can help. -- 750:the revision of the last move in 2007 7: 2625:For the rest of your comment, check 1805:Right. I suppose The New York Times 3233:. Please don't make allegations of 3187:, and with the case decision page. 3183:, with the appropriate sections of 3031:http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Kebeta 1541:Union List of Artist Names (ULAN) ® 853:. For example, the same reason why 2228:Take a look at the last sentence. 1669:Giorgio da Sebenico search yields 1354:"Ser Zorzi di Mathio taiapier" in 24: 2833:Did you read the Galvani book? -- 1787:Whatever. Most of the first hits 3132: 2562:Georgius quondam Mathei de Jadra 2189:Georgius quondam Mathei de Jadra 2183:– Dalmaticus! He was Dalmatian. 1869:Georgius quondam Mathei de Jader 1160:Architecture in Italy, 1400-1500 29: 2420:1478-1529. Umbria (Italy) : --> 1680:Juraj Dalmatinac search yields 3177:section of the decision page. 2109:Isolating the disputed section 1178:...with Giorgio da Sebenico... 504:Knowledge as a propaganda tool 1: 3097:22:07, 10 February 2012 (UTC) 2863:21:35, 26 December 2011 (UTC) 2843:19:41, 26 December 2011 (UTC) 2825:19:17, 26 December 2011 (UTC) 2800:19:07, 26 December 2011 (UTC) 2780:22:43, 25 December 2011 (UTC) 2745:17:35, 24 December 2011 (UTC) 2727:19:59, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 2712:19:53, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 2697:14:23, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 2683:12:47, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 2657:16:49, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 2638:13:50, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 2575:21:00, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 2556:13:50, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 2529:10:58, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 2510:09:40, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 2492:09:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 2470:decision in the year of 1540. 2402:00:44, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 2390:decision in the year of 1540. 2295:14:00, 22 December 2011 (UTC) 2281:13:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC) 2168:13:14, 22 December 2011 (UTC) 2152:09:44, 22 December 2011 (UTC) 2124:08:19, 22 December 2011 (UTC) 2103:07:33, 22 December 2011 (UTC) 2085:19:41, 21 December 2011 (UTC) 2069:13:57, 21 December 2011 (UTC) 2054:13:37, 21 December 2011 (UTC) 2040:11:27, 21 December 2011 (UTC) 2022:11:03, 21 December 2011 (UTC) 2004:11:27, 21 December 2011 (UTC) 1986:10:57, 21 December 2011 (UTC) 1945:10:18, 21 December 2011 (UTC) 1921:09:54, 21 December 2011 (UTC) 1893:08:39, 21 December 2011 (UTC) 1837:23:34, 20 December 2011 (UTC) 1822:23:24, 20 December 2011 (UTC) 1801:21:13, 20 December 2011 (UTC) 1783:20:58, 20 December 2011 (UTC) 1760:18:55, 20 December 2011 (UTC) 1745:18:43, 20 December 2011 (UTC) 1725:17:48, 20 December 2011 (UTC) 1659:14:52, 19 December 2011 (UTC) 1631:12:14, 19 December 2011 (UTC) 1615:07:56, 19 December 2011 (UTC) 1600:21:29, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1579:09:24, 19 December 2011 (UTC) 1564:22:28, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1529:14:26, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1503:14:18, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1467:14:12, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1437:13:54, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1376:07:48, 19 December 2011 (UTC) 1349:21:10, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1330:15:13, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1315:14:12, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1296:07:55, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1273:03:20, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1257:01:24, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1233:23:57, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 1214:23:14, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 1145:23:01, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 1121:22:43, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 1097:21:22, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 1082:20:30, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 1064:20:11, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 1049:19:34, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 1032:16:54, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 1015:16:03, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 999:14:55, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 979:14:26, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 963:13:42, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 928:21:38, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 911:16:57, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 896:13:37, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 871:08:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC) 835:23:39, 15 December 2011 (UTC) 815:23:24, 15 December 2011 (UTC) 796:13:20, 15 December 2011 (UTC) 782:10:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC) 763:10:46, 15 December 2011 (UTC) 719:14:56, 30 November 2011 (UTC) 704:14:01, 30 November 2011 (UTC) 685:13:51, 30 November 2011 (UTC) 668:21:08, 27 November 2011 (UTC) 653:14:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC) 634:21:40, 23 November 2011 (UTC) 498:03:22, 6 September 2011 (UTC) 442:14:15, 27 November 2011 (UTC) 176:00:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC) 3305:09:07, 8 February 2012 (UTC) 3263:19:06, 5 February 2012 (UTC) 3247:20:59, 4 February 2012 (UTC) 3225:18:06, 4 February 2012 (UTC) 3209:16:55, 1 February 2012 (UTC) 3120:12:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC) 3082:09:36, 6 February 2012 (UTC) 3063:20:23, 5 February 2012 (UTC) 3043:12:50, 5 February 2012 (UTC) 3016:12:34, 5 February 2012 (UTC) 2995:14:22, 4 February 2012 (UTC) 2980:07:36, 1 February 2012 (UTC) 2964:00:47, 1 February 2012 (UTC) 2949:13:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC) 2931:Georgio sclavone de Sibinico 2925:12:33, 31 January 2012 (UTC) 2904:01:12, 31 January 2012 (UTC) 2885:00:56, 31 January 2012 (UTC) 2452:09:42, 6 February 2012 (UTC) 1585:Another proposal on the name 1106:, you are talking nonsense. 857:is at that title and not at 753:some more concrete links. -- 743:23:19, 3 December 2011 (UTC) 158:16:30, 31 October 2008 (UTC) 141:15:04, 31 October 2008 (UTC) 125:09:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC) 109:00:59, 31 October 2008 (UTC) 2601:Sources on Medieval Croatia 2361:Then from the Italian side: 2181:Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus 3320: 3270: 2933:) is clearly a Dalmatian: 2500:and other related pages. 1951:before the rest of Europe 1702:Giorgio di Matteo yields 3167:normal editorial process 2594:Here is an excerpt from 1966:Tomidrugo fi lio Naiezde 934:Sockpupeeteering and POV 527:01:44, 29 May 2011 (UTC) 475:13:26, 31 May 2011 (UTC) 18:Talk:Giorgio da Sebenico 3231:Arbitration Enforcement 3029:Trolling of this user: 2498:Knowledge:Verifiability 2421:Description and travel. 1789:are in fact in Croatian 881:Expanding and tiding up 641:User:Luciano di Martino 356:14:31, 8 May 2011 (UTC) 334:19:38, 7 May 2011 (UTC) 310:15:05, 7 May 2011 (UTC) 292:13:46, 7 May 2011 (UTC) 275:10:11, 7 May 2011 (UTC) 259:09:48, 7 May 2011 (UTC) 240:02:27, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 3087:Indeed it could be. -- 2853:Yes, I did. Did you?-- 2612: 2380: 2372: 2358: 2349: 1691:Giorgio Orsini yields 1392: 1188:Giorgio da Sebenico... 768:Ah, but there it is - 97: 74: 3237:without any proof. -- 3163:standards of behavior 3143:Arbitration Committee 2890:Italian or Dalmatian? 2599: 2440:Thomas Graham Jackson 2376: 2367: 2353: 2340: 1810:UNESCO uses that name 1387: 608:Proposed improvements 93: 42:of past discussions. 3271:Frommer's Italy 2012 3159:purpose of Knowledge 2757:Reference, as given 2090:I talk too much? LOL 1493:and understand it?-- 214:) 00:49, 28 May 2010 3171:Giorgio da Sebenico 2560:3 words more here. 2427:Holiday in Cambodia 1949:BTW I didn't write 1865:Georgius Dalmaticus 938:It is visible from 643:, please log in. -- 403:) 17 November 2011‎ 1200:- Now go and read 348:Luciano di Martino 284:Luciano di Martino 232:Luciano di Martino 75:Croatian 'sources' 3192: 3191: 3050:Francesco Laurana 2197:Civis Sibenicenis 1356:Venetian language 1150:Let's quote what 517:comment added by 488:comment added by 405: 391:comment added by 216: 202:comment added by 72: 71: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3311: 3197:reliable sources 3136: 3135: 3129: 2871:Juraj Dalmatinac 1491:WP:VERIFIABILITY 1454:WP:VERIFIABILITY 529: 500: 404: 385: 215: 196: 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3319: 3318: 3314: 3313: 3312: 3310: 3309: 3308: 3279:tourist guide: 3273: 3161:, any expected 3133: 3127: 3104: 3102:long-term abuse 2892: 2873: 2755: 2303: 2207:(citizens) and 2111: 1992:Dragota Vlčinić 1973:Georgius Mathei 1688:=36,420 results 1587: 1552: 1517:User:Pmanderson 1479:WP:Move Request 1446:WP:Move Request 1383: 1129: 936: 883: 610: 548:This paragraph 546: 512: 506: 483: 386: 366:House of Orsini 227: 197: 190:primary sources 101:Don Luca Brazzi 77: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3317: 3315: 3293: 3292: 3287: 3272: 3269: 3268: 3267: 3266: 3265: 3255:71.178.106.120 3250: 3249: 3217:71.178.106.120 3190: 3189: 3147:administrators 3145:has permitted 3139: 3137: 3126: 3123: 3103: 3100: 3085: 3084: 3068:I found this: 3046: 3045: 3027: 3021: 3020: 3019: 3018: 2983: 2982: 2967: 2966: 2956:71.178.106.120 2913: 2912: 2891: 2888: 2872: 2869: 2868: 2867: 2866: 2865: 2855:71.163.236.199 2848: 2847: 2846: 2845: 2828: 2827: 2817:71.163.236.199 2803: 2802: 2772:71.163.236.199 2754: 2751: 2750: 2749: 2748: 2747: 2737:71.163.236.199 2730: 2729: 2714: 2675:71.163.236.199 2671: 2662: 2661: 2660: 2659: 2649:71.163.236.199 2641: 2640: 2623: 2615: 2602: 2593: 2584: 2583: 2582: 2581: 2580: 2579: 2578: 2577: 2543: 2534: 2533: 2532: 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639:If this is 36:This is an 3089:Silvio1973 3055:Silvio1973 2987:Silvio1973 2667:Silvio1973 2521:Silvio1973 2265:reference. 2216:ref. 1 is 2160:Silvio1973 2116:Silvio1973 2077:Silvio1973 2046:Silvio1973 1953:, I wrote 1913:Silvio1973 1767:google.com 1623:Silvio1973 1592:Silvio1973 1409:To improve 1362:page 85) ( 1056:Silvio1973 1007:Silvio1973 888:Silvio1973 426:verifiable 282:Orsini".-- 225:References 204:Theirrulez 3277:Frommer's 3165:, or any 3074:Grifter72 3035:Grifter72 3008:Grifter72 2972:Grifter72 2941:Grifter72 2917:Grifter72 2835:Grifter72 2792:Grifter72 2689:Grifter72 2329:Page 407 2313:Page 406 2014:Grifter72 1971:So, form 1750:contrast. 1651:Grifter72 1607:Grifter72 1571:Grifter72 1368:Grifter72 1341:Grifter72 1322:Grifter72 1288:Grifter72 1221:WP:ARBMAC 1074:Grifter72 1041:Grifter72 424:that are 66:Archive 2 60:Archive 1 3239:WGFinley 3215:named.-- 3201:WGFinley 2719:Zenanarh 2704:Zenanarh 2630:Zenanarh 2589:Zenanarh 2567:Zenanarh 2548:Zenanarh 2502:Zenanarh 2484:Zenanarh 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