998:, this massive investment of training-time has been officially recognized by the APA and so moved it (that takes a lot) that it released a statement (look it up on apa.org) that the postdoc-requirement is obsolete, leading to the closure of many such training programs. Sadly, most states still require the postdoc for licensure, forcing the PhD or PsyD graduate to apply, in spite of the APA's benevolent conclusion, to many postdoctoral fellowship programs in the hope that s/he can finally get licensed. The competition is fierce now that there are fewer sites that are willing to offer postdoctoral supervision. In the end, our training (PhDs and PsyDs) from program-entry to licensure takes longer than that of most neurosurgeons, with none of the financial rewards. Finally, the archaic and partisan denigration of one degree or another harms our profession. It may satisfy some old-school adherents, but it does nothing to further our professional interests as well as our basic need to pay our astronomic academic debts and engage in the pedestrian activity of putting bread on our tables. As is, our profession is fighting for its life in the managed-care arena: It is far cheaper to employ midlevel psychotherapists (i.e., those with terminal master's degrees), so that is what managed-care by and large does. The golden era of psychologist as undisputed psychotherapist has been terminated by the money-vs.-health- conscious health conglomerates. MDs and DOs (both holders of prof. degrees, granted), have for the most part realized that their bickering about the merits of their respective training undermines their respective professions. And would it be so that clinical psychology had the "aura" and financial kickbacks of medicine. We've got miles to go before we blissfully sleep as a profession (while not @ work, of course): Our profession is evolving. We, I humbly submit, have much better things to do than putting "the other" path to the clinical doctorate down to the ground. I do not have the ref., but all of us remember the peer-reviewed article that demonstrated that Ph.D. grads in clinical psychology have a modal publications-number of zero. We all know that the mode, while a legit statistical "device," suffers from severe limitations. First, a minority of Ph.D. grads in clinical psychology
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wouldn't argue the necessity for medicine too much; if you're bleeding and it won't stop, you'd do well to get yourself to a medical doctor, am I right?) Anyway, I left that part in but re-worded it it to bring it to more of a neutral state. Took out "highest standards" too and re-worked the sentence just a bit; currently
American psychologists (and this is about the Doctor of Psychology degree, a US degree) are generally required to have either Ph.D's or Psy.D.s, they're trained to be supervisors, trained to take a leadership position, and trained to work collaboratively with first professionals in other areas of healthcare. It seemed reasonable enough for me since this last paragraph seems to reference BOTH of the two highest clinical psychology degrees in the US while emphasizing the Doctor of Psychology degree, which after all is the topic of the article. I disagree that the whole article needs to be re-written, speaking at least from an American perspective about this American degree; you should have seen it a few months ago, as I guess we can all gather by reading previous posts. On the other hand, there's always room for improvement I suppose. The "Clinical Psychologist" article seems to have references for the major areas of theoretical orientation... could those be repeated here I wonder? --
1350:(new user name but I'm the editor in the discussion above) I called the USNEI office at Dept of education today and spoke with two people about this list. They couldn't tell me who placed PsyD in that category but will get back to me, I'm told. I would suggest, based on the words of the USNEI webpage, that the EdD page should not be making the claim for equivalence. I know little about the EdD degree, though, so I hesitate to edit that page. But I would support someone removing that claim. Perhaps the argument should be made to remove any and all claims of degree equivalence in Knowledge articles. Trying to make claims about comparison of degrees requires an agreed upon criteria which may be impossible. (For example: Is a Dutch doctorate equivalent to an American online PhD? Certainly not. Is a D.B.A. equivalent to a D.P.H.? Who knows? How would you evaluate this claim?) So, yes, based on this problem with equivalence and on what the USNEI say about their ratings on their website, I would suggest that the claims on the EdD page should be deleted.
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the Psy.D. student trains many more hours in clinical practice, while the Ph.D. student trains many more hours in research and related academic subjects. If you are not scrambling to emerge from foreclosure and other financial woes many of us have been rewarded with as a result of our years of poverty-level living, you are more than welcome by all of us (I am sure) to study this in a rigorously quantitative manner. You want a reference? Make it! My family is hungry and I am broke. So far, that's my financial reward for breaking my back to acquire my degree.
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cliched-but-so-true expression, do not yet all get along, if just begrudgingly. In the end, after all the tomatoes and eggs have been flung, nobody outside our profession cares about our guild issues. If they notice them, they find us laughable and head (if necessary) to the nearest LPC/LCPC/LCSW/LICSW/LMFT for some therapy. We're undermining the future of our profession, and I beg us all to please stop! We're committing mass suicide.
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I am the editor who reverted. I reverted because a large claim needs some discussion and it is best to revert to current status and discuss before making any changes. I would agree with removing the claim that the degree is the equivalent of any other doctorate. It would be hard to prove that any two
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This is not true. Your one source for this claim is USNEI, but they state in their information page that the purpose includes, "To honor the diversity and autonomy of the U.S. education system, and the spirit and letter of international educational agreements to which the United States is a party, by
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According to the APA 46 of the 50 states in the U.S. do not require APA accreditation for licensure. Those that do have this requirement, state that equivalency to an APA accredited program established by the applicant is sufficient to secure licensure. In fact the APA does not determine whether or
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The revisions I completed on 19April 2011 (see unsigned note above) seem to have stood the test of almost a year. Therefore I propose that a lot of the debate material here (which doesn't relate to the current page) be cleaned up. Many of the debates below are not germane to the current condition of
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I agree to some extent and changed the quotes you added. "Such an argument holds little water" is out. As evidenced by our discussion here though, it does spark "debate" which replaced those words. My logic here is that it's commonly accepted that medicine is important to society... (I for one
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UnholyGhost: Although the licensure bar for clinical training is identical for both Ph.D. and Psy.D. graduates, it by-definition provides guidelines as to the minimal amount of training the APA deems acceptable. Review of Psy.D. coursework, as outlined in various school-brochures, will reveal that
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Making the change without discussing it here is unacceptable. This is a contested source, it is in current discussions between the US Department of
Education and the APA. The American Psychological Association states that the PhD and the PsyD are both terminal doctoral degrees. Finding one source
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The 2 sentences you've highlighted are also vaguely contradictory. The first says relative emphasis, whereas the second is about absolute emphasis. Coming from a non-US perspective, I'm only familiar with that. There, the clinical component is the same regardless of MA/MSc & clinical diploma,
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My issue is with the implication that the PsyD has a stronger clinical background that a PhD. Further, it is stated, albeit not exactly directly, that there is a difference in clinical competency between the two degrees. It all smacks of weasely statements that require citations to support.
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PhDs are equivalent, and this sort of claim is wrong and cannot be supported. I am working on cleaning up the whole article right now. It is a biased mess, with a lot of unsupported claims and loaded adjectives. I'll try cleaning it up and then step aside and see what you think. How's that?
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What is the status of PsyD sorts of degrees outside the US? There is a challenge that this article is written from a US perspective, but if the PsyD does not exist outside the US (does it?) that challenge would not make sense. (That is, if it is a US issue, then it perforce must have a US
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Expressions like "But such an argument holds little water", "long since proven themselves indispensable to humankind.", "Trained as clinicians and leaders in the field, Psy.D.'s provide informed, collaborative care at the highest standards" aren't exactly neutral, enyclopedic expressions.
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go on to academic careers such as university/college tenure-track ones, and they publish so as not to perish. Second, we also know that an even smaller minority of Psy.D. grads (I'm one of them) publishes in peer-reviewed journals just like Ph.D. grads do. It is sad that we, to borrow a
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I concur. There is more contradiction when you contrast the clinical ability of PsyDs vs PhDs regarding licensing. The bar for obtaining a license is the same, so, one could assume (in the absense of any other information) that the PsyD and PhD would be equally capible clinicians.
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1272:, so I think the person who restored the old material made an error in restoring unverifiable material!!! If a better source cannot be found for the paragraph that was restored I will remove it again as it is NOT VERIFIED and does not meet wikipedia standards.
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In other countries there are comparable degrees with similar names. In the U.K., for example, the degree is often abbreviated as DClinPsych, DClinPsy or ClinPsyD. For example, here is the information on the DClinPsy degree from Kings
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The background section on this page is filled with glaring inaccuracies. It shows signs of clear bias towards Psy.D and misleading claims against Ph.D training with no empirical support. Suggest that this be rewritten using data rather than opinion.
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Both being "terminal" doesn't mean equal. The Master of Fine Arts is a terminal degree but is not a doctorate. I don't have an agenda other than improving wikipedia. By suggesting that I have an agenda I feel you are not assuming good faith (see
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Major clean up on 19 April 2011 - I have cleaned up and rewritten this whole page. I have added sources and removed promotional claims and comparisons to most other degrees. Please review the work that I have done and suggest additional changes.
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Now that I have added a paragraph explaining that the Psy.D. is not equivalent to certain other doctorates (along with a verifiable citation), I have removed the contradictory and unverifiable paragraph saying that these degrees are all
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I have also now added a paragraph that explicitly states that the Psy.D. is NOT the equivalent of the MD, JD, EdD, or PhD, as designated by the US Department of
Education (which I take to be the highest authority on Education in the
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that states otherwise is not a conclusive reason to make a drastic change to this article. If you have an agenda about the PsyD versus PhD degrees you should discuss it here and seek input before a radical revision to the article.
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1368:). This isn't a reason to make this claim here, as I would argue that all of these arguments about degree equivalence need to go away, but it is worth mentioning that the APA is one of the groups making the claim.
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page and give the same reasons over there. Otherwise, it would seem that people are only trusting sources when they confirm a particular belief and casting doubt upon the source when it contradicts their belief :)
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serving exclusively as an information center and not as a policymaking body on credential recognition, admissions, or mobility issues, which by U.S. law and practice are reserved to other competent authorities."
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PsyD, or PhD & clinical diploma. Slightly more contentiously, one could argue that if the PhD research is on a clinical topic (which it need not be), then that may make for a better clinician. --
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To say that Psy.D. recipients were not included among respondents of a survey does not endorse the Psy.D. as equivalent to the degree held by those people who are respondents of the survey.
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The most common research doctorate degree is the Ph.D. Doctorate recipients of professional doctorate degrees such as M.D., D.D.S., J.D., D.Pharm., and Psy.D are not included in the survey.
994:, both Psy.D. and Ph.D. graduates take an average of seven to ten years to complete their degrees (a ref. exists; by all means, please find it if you're not trying to find a postdoc).
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not an applicant is licensed by the state in which he or she works. Therefore, I propose that the following sentences in the introduction be edited to reflect these facts facts:
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When I followed the citation that was given I was taken to a page discussing NSF's "Survey of Earned
Doctorates." The Psy.D. was mentioned in this page only in this sentence:
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The way that the article is written makes it seem like the Doctor of
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The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. You may remove any material lacking a reliable source that directly supports it.
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A researcher is professional. One can be involved in the professional practice of psychology as a researcher. I think its clearer to use clinical here.
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in education. If an editor here feels that the USNEI source is not appropriate for the Psy.D. page, I would suggest that they should also go edit the
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Part of the problem here is the APA itself. It seems to be making the claim that the PsyD is a degree equivalent to the M.D. (for example, here:
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I have removed information on non-doctoral clinical psychology training problems around the world. These should be included in the page for . --
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I added a "Failed
Verification" tag to the section that claims that the Psy.D. is equivalent to the M.D., Pharm.D., and other degrees.
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Oh, but
National Science Foundation (which is the older citation) IS a valid source? How are they better suited than the USNEI?
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I do not contest that a PsyD may not have the research background that a PhD may have, but a source for that would be nice.
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For non-clinical doctorates in psychology, programs are not accredited by the APA and there is no license to practice..."
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https://web.archive.org/web/20110811131932/http://www.argosy.edu:80/colleges/american-school-professional-psychology/
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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https://web.archive.org/web/20120125002559/http://www.du.edu/gspp/degree-programs/clinical-psychology/overview/
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According to my text book, the vail conf was in 1973, not 75...posted by adam freeman. adam.freeman@wmich.edu
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perspective. Is there a non-US PsyD? I have never met one and I work with a lot of non-US psychologists.
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I know that the title of doctor is used for PsyD people inside the US, but don't have a reference for it.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20111016040458/http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/professions/psychology/licensure.htm
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topics on
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Here is the information from the
University of Manchester, which abbreviates the degree as ClinPsyD:
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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that the USNEI may be a "contested" source among the editors of the Psy.D. page, but on the
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There is no evidence that demonstrates that any given PsyD is any more competent than a PhD.
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http://www.phdportal.eu/students/browse/programme/19508/clinical-psychology-clinpsyd.html
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https://web.archive.org/web/20141107004226/http://www.mspp.edu/admissions/apply/psyd.php
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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US Department of Education does not classify Psy.D. as equivalent to M.D., Ph.D., etc.
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I would suggest most of this article is in dire need of being completely rewritten.
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http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ous/international/usnei/edlite-disclaim.html
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https://web.archive.org/web/20141107001416/http://www.forest.edu/ad-req-psyd.aspx
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page the USNEI is used as one of several sources to validate the claim that the
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However, to restore material that is not verifiable fails the burden of evidence
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This is not a valid source to claim that the PsyD is not a full doctorate.
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http://www.argosy.edu/colleges/american-school-professional-psychology/
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http://www.argosy.edu/colleges/american-school-professional-psychology/
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I was fully within policy to remove material that failed verification.
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Edit: I removed the erroneous and fictitious entries myself 6/11/2013.
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http://www.du.edu/gspp/degree-programs/clinical-psychology/overview/
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There exists and article on the British version of this degree (the
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Rather than reverting to the original version (which is flawed and
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http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/Professions/psychology/licensure.htm
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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This article has been marked as needing immediate attention.
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This article has been marked as needing immediate attention.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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http://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2004/04/accreditation.aspx
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http://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2004/04/accreditation.aspx
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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
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19:This is the
1433:Sourcecheck
1312:Please note
1296:24.12.12.43
1290:—Preceding
1219:24.12.12.43
1174:24.12.12.43
1168:—Preceding
1140:equivalent.
979:UnholyGhost
793:24.12.12.43
787:—Preceding
678:24.12.12.43
199:Start-class
148:free images
31:not a forum
1676:Categories
1663:Report bug
1503:Report bug
996:Regardless
992:Regardless
898:References
847:Galaxy8900
811:DClinPsych
398:discussion
288:Psychology
279:Psychology
228:Psychology
1646:this tool
1639:this tool
1540:dead link
1486:this tool
1479:this tool
1370:Dcroberts
1352:Dcroberts
954:Limegreen
709:Dcroberts
693:Dcroberts
512:Education
499:education
455:Education
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1652:Cheers.—
1492:Cheers.—
1292:unsigned
1170:unsigned
1033:Roodog2k
968:Roodog2k
943:Roodog2k
863:PrimeBOT
843:Valegria
789:unsigned
666:Untitled
394:colleges
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1544:tag to
1526:my edit
1419:checked
1396:my edit
1195:WP:BOLD
539:on the
315:on the
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
1536:Added
1427:failed
1191:WP:AGF
1065:Amy332
729:V. Joe
392:, and
205:scale.
126:Google
1328:Ed.D.
1324:Ph.D.
1320:Ed.D.
1260:From
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1423:true
1374:talk
1356:talk
1341:talk
1300:talk
1278:talk
1262:WP:V
1251:talk
1230:talk
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1114:US).
1101:talk
1069:talk
1041:NPOV
983:talk
867:talk
833:and
797:talk
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753:talk
713:talk
697:talk
682:talk
531:High
501:and
307:High
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1620:RfC
1590:to
1580:to
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1460:RfC
1437:).
1425:or
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1150:Ehb
1120:Ehb
1097:Ehb
861:by
176:TWL
1678::
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