308:# HM1973 — Houghton Mifflin Company of Boston, 1973. Forest green simulated leather boards with red and gold gilt runic inscription around the periphery in front and a stylized road-going-into-forest-in-front-of-mountains illustration in gold gilt a little above center. Matching slipcase in simulated leather with the same cover illustration on a paste-down in green, black, and yellow. Printed on heavy paper. All original illustrations from HM1938 restored, including color plates. Black-and-white illustrations printed as black-and-green, maps in black and green, and each page neatline is in green. 18 x 23.5 cm, 317 numbered pages.
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262:. I see no advantage to lettering variants over bulleting variants, and I have no idea what the mixing references with lists means. The wikiformatting has the advantage of being wikified, and working with tools such as AWB, and the reversions keep losing the fixes (such as "et al") that have been applied. --
896:
Definitely fix these problems, please! That’s how
Knowledge works. I didn’t understand the comment about the Ballantine edition. The back cover of the 1973 edition calls the February 1966 printing a new edition? I would not assume that the older entries are nearly the mess that the newer ones are, by
609:
As I just wrote on your user talk, I have no idea either how that messed up edit of mine happened. Thank you for fixing that now. And I'm glad to know that you like the general idea of this ordered list template. The page does in fact look a bit condensed now, so I've been pondering using a table for
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of London, 1937 Light green cloth binding over boards, imprinted with stylized Misty
Mountains scene in deep blue ink along the top, all the way around, and a dragon at the bottom, both front and back. Dust jacket in green, black, dark blue, and white, showing a drawing of stylized mountains with the
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The text says “See such and such hyperlinked article”. I do not know how to more obviously refer to other material. My point is that your changes have made the first and second examples parallel things when they are no such thing at all. The first example says “go here if you want more information”.
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of Boston & New York, 1938. Tan cloth binding over boards, imprinted with a bowing hobbit in red to the upper right of the title on the front. Dust jacket in blue with the
Hobbiton frontispiece in color in front. Title page shows outline of the same bowing hobbit as on the cover. All artwork by
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Nor do I see how either item qualifies as a
Knowledge “list”. There is such a thing as one bibliographic variant. There isn’t any such thing as a useful list of one item. That would be an example of warping content so that somebody’s tools work. There’s nothing advocating single-item lists in the
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films there's also been a promotional change of cover art at some publishers. E.g. I've found a 2012 paperback by HarperCollins with a cover image showing Bilbo/Freeman looking out of the door of his Hobbit hole. Amazon lists 400 pages but I'm not sure how they count this and if it matches our
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A 400 page edition of The Hobbit would be an appreciable change in format. That doesn’t seem right, but of course they might have added all sorts of material related to the movies. By the criteria listed in the article, the change in cover art alone would qualify as a separate “edition”.
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I understand the advantages of using formatting that bots like. Unfortunately I don’t see how that goal is compatible with bibliographic practice unless the bots develop a bit more smarts. I am happy to learn if there is a better
Wikimedia way to achieve what needs to be achiever here.
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that purpose. It could contain columns for the identifier, a summary, and the a., b., c. variants. That way we'd have a structured presentation that follows the style guidelines and might even look better than a large bunch of densely listed text. I'd be willing to code such a table.
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Thanks for the tip about the
Ordered list template. That appears to be a new template. It works for the purpose. I don’t like how cramped the page content has ended up, but at least it’s down to æsthetics now instead of sacrificing standard practices to Knowledge’s limitations.
924:, with the domain name “readthehobbit.com” printed on the back cover. This website contains a picture of the cover art. Not sure if this is an edition that merits the creation of an “identifier,” or is a “variant” of one of the existing “described” editions?
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Thank you for addressing the problem of
Knowledge guidelines. I am aware of the guidelines, which do not address this case. You have not addressed the problem of standard bibliographic practices or how to get the variants properly lettered using Knowledge
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I was wondering whether the illustration of “The Hall at Bag-End, Residence of B. Baggins
Esquire” counts as the last page of the story, or as an end-paper (for the purpose of determining the total number of pages)? Also, what about the maps (the map of
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I am glad that the information can be traced back to the three sources you list. However, citing tolkienbooks.net directly is still a problem (especially if you are the author). Although it appears to be an accurate and well-researched website, it is a
667:. I think this is still the best way of presenting the various editions. By the way, what is it with these identifiers like HM1938? Are they in any way officially recognised or is this something that has been made up for local use at Knowledge?
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Using letters to denote variants in standard bibliographic practice, whether referring to books, stamps, maps, or automobile production runs. Warping standard practices in order to accommodate tools seems much like the tail wagging the
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and as such cannot be reliable. I removed the circular citation leaving a lot of information (including the detailed tables) unreferenced. If another source is not found, much of the information in this section needs to be removed.
845:
Ok, I'm not the one to fix it (inexperience in editing and not enough information), but trying to use this article I have just enough information of my own to get the feeling that it's a mess. Here are some things that I noticed:
849:
Ballantine Books
Published a "Revised Edition" in February 1966. This may be the variant listed to the 1965 edition, but it meets the criterium of the Publisher declaring it a new edition. (Source- Title verso of BB1973)
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of the table where the early
American editions link is inside the description cell. This produces much less empty cells and leaves more space for flowing text. If you don't mind I'm going to add this to the article.
648:
A table could work. My primary concern is that most of the entries do not have variants and so it seems like a lot of table real estate would get devoted to empty boxes. Or is there some way of dealing with that?
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Tolkien. No half-title page. Chapter VII mis-labeled as Chapter VI; List of Illustrations mistakenly lists Thror's map to be at the front, where the text declares it to be. 15.1Â Ă—Â 21.0Â cm, 310 numbered pages.
939:
Hmm, this should actually be a new edition with the front cover being based on the original 1937 drawing by Tolkien. This red, gold and black version seems to be quite new though. At least it's not listed
553:
I’m not sure how your last edit here on this Talk page ended up dumping article content into the middle of my own edit, but I see now what you intended. I restored your edit but deleted the spurious spew.
482:
Title page bowing hobbit insignia was changed to the publisher's device of a seated flautist in second printing. Date unknown. Half-title page added. List of Illustrations places ThrĂłr's map at rear.
288:# HM1951 — Houghton Mifflin Co. of Boston and New York, 1951. Identical sheets, illustrations, and binding as AU1951. Only the spines of the book and dust jacket have changed to name the publisher.
1105:
I am the author of the TolkienBooks article. It is almost entirely based on information from the publisher's correspondence archive, supplemented by Hammond's Tolkien bibliography and
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my wikified version. The article was coherently structured and sorted by the identifiers AU1937, etc. Another suggestion of mine would be using something like this which includes
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moon and eagles soaring above, a forest, and a river. End paper maps in red, black, and white. All artwork by Tolkien. 14.0Â Ă—Â 19.6Â cm, 310 numbered pages.
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And finally- a column for ISBN wouldn't go amiss; I know it's not applicable to the early editions, but for the latter ones it would be very useful.
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belong in this article, then please feel free to re-do the copy-paste job, keeping the above template on this talk page for attribution purposes.
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The HarperCollins 2007 edition, while most definitely a new edition (the publishers declare it as such), uses the same ISBN as the 1995 edition.
350:. Since there is no indication that the secondary list is a reference in the first case, I still don't see the harm in wikifying it as well. --
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that generally fictional articles should be written in present tense, all Tolkien legendarium-related articles that cover in-universe material
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from the point of view of reliability. Instead of citing your website, this article should directly attribute the original sources.
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In the first case, the secondary list is a reference. In the second case the secondary list is a variant that should be lettered.
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to this article. But then I did not like the appearance of the result, so I self-reverted. If anybody else believes the text
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First published by HarperCollinspublishers 1991- presumably a continuation of previous, but under the new name (can't prove)
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magazine. The link to the Knowledge article is only there for further information. I have amended my article to clarify.
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Orange library binding, silk screen of original American dust jacket in black outline. Binding may apply to any printing.
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There seems to be no listing for the 1997 H-M 70th Anniversary hardcover, ill. by Alan Lee (Smaug on jacket).
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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on 18 May 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see
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Actually, that looks fine. It’s even usefully viewable on a smartphone. Thanks for the effort!
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HM2007 mentions HarperCollins- which is it? (to answer that question, the ISBN listed is HM)
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Not "warping to accommodate tools", but rather "unwarping to follow Knowledge style", e.g.,
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The second example is a bibliographic distinction declaring a variant of the primary entry.
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classification. I suspect the edition is essentially the same as HC1999. Any thoughts?
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As noted in the article, you go by the last page that has a page number on it.
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I have a 2012 Houghton-Mifflin Harcourt 75th anniversary paperback edition,
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I copied the text of the section on “publication” from the main article on
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The title verso of my Harper Collins 2007 copy says (among other things):
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I have no idea how to prevent empty boxes in this case but have a look at
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Ok, I'm going to research this a bit and may eventually update the list.
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for suggestions and ideas on how you can improve this and other articles.
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Circular references in "English-language editions of The Hobbit" section
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Buckram style "D", and maps on roughly calendered stock. Date unknown.
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Buckram style "C", and maps on roughly calendered stock. Date unknown.
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5th Edition (reset) 1995- Which is therefore missing from this list
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This edition is based on the reset edition first published in 1995
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I have tidied up the references to point to the ultimate sources.
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Chapter VII heading corrected from "Chapter VI". Date unknown.
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And I don't understand what you meant with "incoherent" while
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for more information about this and other article standards.
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edition, distinguished by annotation on the copyright page.
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Second printing (1937) converted four plates to color.
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in turn cites Knowledge and nothing else. This is a
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This is what I mean by mixing references with lists:
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232:Knowledge:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards
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227:past tense
104:List-class
32:page were
1039:this edit
897:the way.
473:HM1938 —
458:AU1937 —
435:reverting
256:like this
1175:Solicitr
946:De728631
878:unsigned
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703:De728631
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612:De728631
525:De728631
352:JHunterJ
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82:contribs
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1043:history
201:on the
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807:Strebe
786:Hobbit
780:HC2012
734:Strebe
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577:Strebe
414:Strebe
330:Strebe
293:#*See
221:before
163:, his
110:scale.
34:merged
1037:with
965:after
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529:talk
513:etc.
418:talk
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346:and
334:talk
304:vs.
278:dog.
268:talk
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193:Mid
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