Talk:Esoteric Neo-Nazism

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Caucasians--are members of the fifth Root-race, far removed from them (77). In the Theosophical evolutionism, as Spirit--or Monad or Pilgrim--works its way through the history of the earth, it "is compelled to incarnate in, or rather contact, every race" (78). As it marches across the history of the earth, Spirit manifests itself in the form of the various Root-races and sub-races which it successively sheds as it surges upward toward our present Fifth Race, the most perfect so far. Those who get left behind--referred to variously as "sluggards" and "failures"--are destined to stagnate. Arguably, this enchanted evolutionary vision is much more racist and hierarchical than that espoused by many a contemporary disenchanted materialist, for millions of years separate the white Anglo-Saxon from the black aborigine whose origins are ascribed to the "racial decay" that besets the seventh sub-race in the closing years of Lemuria's life on earth (79). Further, rather than emerging from the more perfected forms of the Fourth Root-race on Atlantis, as the majority of northern humanity do, the blacks of the world--"fallen, degraded semblances of humanity"--are deemed to be descendents of a Root-race that was ultimately transcended by other, superior forms (80). Lemuria is handy in this regard as well, allowing the Theosophist to not only place the lower, degraded specimens of humanity in a different time, but also to isolate them further from the more evolved races by tracing their origins to a totally different continental configuration (81).

1124:"...That is why the progression, which this mode of thought makes it possible for us to conceive, is not a horizontal linear evolution, but an ascent from cycle to cycle, from one octave to a higher octave. A few pages from the same Shaikh, which have been translated here, illustrate this. The spiritual history of humanity since Adam is the cycle of prophecy following the cycle of cosmogony; but though the former follows in the train of the latter, it is in the nature of a reversion, a return and reascent to the pleroma. This has a gnostic flavor to be sure, but that is exactly what it means to 'see things in Hurqalya.' It means to see man and his world essentially in a vertical direction. The Orient-origin, which orients and magnetizes the return and reascent, is the celestial pole, the cosmic North, the 'emerald rock' at the summit of the cosmic mountain of Qaf, in the very place where the world of Hurqalya begins; so it is not a region situated East on the maps, not even those old maps that place the East at the top, in place of the North. The meaning of man and the meaning of his world are conferred upon them by this polar dimension, and not by a linear, horizontal and one-dimensional evolution, that famous 'sense of history' which nowadays has been taken for granted, even though the terms of reference on which it is based remain entirely hypothetical. 1128:

also situated in the direction of the cosmic North. In the same way, according to the mystic Abd al-Karim Jili, the 'earth of the souls' is a region in the far North, the only one not to have been affected by the consequences of the fall of Adam. It is the abode of the 'men of the Invisible,' ruled by the mysterious prophet Khizr (Khadir). A characteristic feature is that its light is that of the 'midnight sun,' since the evening prayer is unknown there, dawn rising before the sun has set. And here it might be useful to look at all the symbols that converge toward the paradise of the North, the souls' Earth of Light and castle of the Grail...."

350: 1154:, I have long been drawn to the image of this cosmic mountain. However, it's not for nothing that this theoretically northern mountain, this 'orient', has been associated with the east, where Snorri put it in his Edda. You should be aware of the considerable body of traditional data which localizes the physical embodiment of this mountain either in the Transcaucasus (Northern Zagros, probably) or in central Asia (Pamirs?), in line with the mtDNA and Y-chromosome data, plus linguistic and archaeological evidence (see 74: 53: 687: 666: 1579:

eyes beautiful. And when he opened his eyes, he lighted up the whole house like the sun, and the whole house was very bright. And thereupon he arose in the hands of the midwife, opened his mouth, and conversed with the Lord of righteousness. And his father Lamech was afraid of him and fled, and came to his father Methuselah. And he said unto him: "I have begotten a strange son, diverse from and unlike man, and resembling the sons of the God of heaven...

1001: 403: 382: 413: 163: 142: 594: 258: 576: 268: 231: 604: 792: 771: 802: 697: 508: 487: 22: 903: 876: 1445:. As described (and apparently coined) by Goodrick-Clarke, it's all "Neo", and I don't know that it has ever been used by any scholar in any other way. So it's still my view that there just isn't an ambiguity that needs addressing. If you could produce evidence that users of Knowledge are actually finding this to be a problem, I would change my opinion. 913: 1381:. These evidently don't always identify as "Nazi", but we shouldn't split them between articles, because the phenomenon presents unifying characteristics and we need an overview in one place. I think that, here, we should confine ourselves to noting the influence of Savitri Devi and Serrano within the Satanist counterculture. 1667:

That said, the article is a) based on conspiracy theories started by rightwing authors of popular German books in the 1950ies and 60ies, refreshed by Goodrick-Clarke, b) does not embrace the newer research denying any connection and c) has no idea about the current picture presented by Schellinger et

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After 1945, a consensus held that occultism -- an ostensibly anti-modern, irrational blend of pseudo-religious and -scientific practices and ideas -- had directly facilitated Nazism's rise. More recently, scholarly debate has denied the occult a role in shaping the Third Reich, emphasizing the Nazis'

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Goodrick-Clarke's terminology is what it is. He perceives that neo-Nazis are a subset of Nazis. (You wouldn't argue that we can't call ourselves mammals because we are primates.) However, if you are still unhappy about it, we could sidestep the terminology. I've re-read Goodrick-Clarke and Godwin on

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is not the best name, but how dow we deal with the fact that Nicholas Goodrick-Clark has pointed out the blurring of lines among Aryanism, neofascism, and neonazism? Maybe we could have this discussion here? I can drop a note on other pages. What matters most is that there is some coherence to the

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I entirely agree with you about Benoist, but I'm not sure we can just go around inventing terms which aren't in the literature. Besides, 'Esoteric' is a qualifier, just like 'Neo'. Esoteric Nazism didn't exist in the Third Reich, because there was no officially-sanctioned ideology of Nazi occultism,

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Anyway, I'm not sure how this fits in with the article. By no stretch of the imagination is Corbin a Nazi esotericist, though he might be cited as an influence. We've lost some related material which was moved to the Serrano article — I might be able to fix that later on, but even then the stuff you

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Sumathi Ramaswamy, The Lost Land of Lemuria (University of California Press, 2004), p. 68: Indeed, Theosophy generates a complex geography of human races in which all the black peoples of the world are either Lemurians or their degenerate descendents, while the most advanced peoples of today--white

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entry here. Benjamin Creme believes in a scenario quite similar to Evola and Serrano, with hyperphysical Venusian Nordic aliens from the extramundane etheric plane guiding the evolution of earthlings, etc. The Theosophical inspiration is here again quite evident. Theosophy seems inextricably linked

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CHAPTER 106 (FRAGMENT FROM THE BOOK OF NOAH) And after some days my son Methuselah took a wife for his son Lamech, and she became pregnant by him and bore a son. And his body was white as snow and red as the blooming of a rose, and the hair of his head and his long locks were white as wool, and his

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Moreover, the paradise of Yima in which are preserved the most beautiful of beings who will repopulate a transfigured world, namely, the Var that preserves the seed of the resurrection bodies, is situated in the North. The Earth of Light, the Terra Lucida of Manicheism, like that of Mazdeism , is

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In any case, we don't need to make Esoteric Nazism a disambig. It is evident enough that G-C doesn't mean to include the occult interests of a few pre-1945 Nazis, and as long as this is clearly spelled out at the beginning of the article, nobody who arrives here is going to be in any doubt that

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I agree with what you say, but the confusion and debate among scholars over terminolgy in this topical area is widespread. For the record, I think Alain de Benoist is a neofascist, but a clever one. I do however, recognize that there is considerable disagreement over this

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PLease have a look on Schellinger, Uwe; Anton, Andreas; Schetsche, Michael T. (2015). Pragmatic Occultism in the Military History of the Third Reich”. In Black, Monica, and Eric Kurlander: Revisiting the "nazi Occult" Histories, Realities, Legacies (NED New ed.).

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Noah as a newborn is described as being very pale in appearance, with white hair and skin. His looks are so unusual that his father, Lamech, initially suspects his wife of having had an adulterous affair with a lusty fallen angel....

1158:), which converge in tracing the Caucasoid migrations from these areas. No doubt on its own plane of reality it is situated at the north pole of cosmic rotation, but that's not necessarily how it looks from the physical universe. 1238:

are very much out of date and rely on outdated research and fail to take into account a considerable amount of literature published in the last ten years. Right now there is a fractious discussion going on over at

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I agree; even though this is an old discussion, I've moved the article as discussed and added hatnotes on both article so the reader knows the difference and can find the material they were looking for.

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only one certified-insane SS-Brigadeführer and some fringe dabbling in the Ahnenerbe. So 'Esoteric' is (and includes the) 'Neo', by definition. It doesn't need a redundant double qualification.

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hostility to esoteric religion and alternative forms of knowledge. Bringing together cutting-edge scholarship on the topic, this volume calls for a fundamental reappraisal of these positions.

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I have to admit that Esoteric Nazism is not at all well-defined. Goodrick-Clarke himself uses it sparingly, and he doesn't properly explain what is included. It is evidently broader than

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in order to abide by naming conventions used on most of the other pages on fascism and Nazism. Benoist is hardly a Nazi or neonazi. Some debate even calling him a neofascist.--

1860: 1524:. (I am hoping that you will not suggest "Esoteric neo-Hitlerism"!) Result: two rather better defined articles. If we inserted a short explanation of G-C's ill-defined 1920: 1479:

But 99.9% of readers don't know anything about this stuff, and this is an encyclopedia, and part of our job is to help readers find information and make sense of it.--

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on Knowledge. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the

1900: 753: 548: 1734: 1730: 1716: 1301:, I've had a long think about the related problem of what to call this article and have (reluctantly) come back to the conclusion that it should remain as it is. 1520:— it was a sort of connecting link between NVM and earlier völkisch/Ariosophical mysticism — and, more immediately, move the contents of the present article to 1930: 1905: 1830: 1048: 124: 114: 1955: 971: 961: 1915: 1566:

No wonder Serrano and his gang consider the ancient Book of Enoch so interesting: it describes the white Nordic physiotype as superhuman and "angelic":

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quoted would be incidental. If I wrote a section on Parvulesco, I could give Corbin a mention. Meantime, I'm going to check out Pearson's translation.

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the Landig group and they clearly fall in with the Evolians rather than Serrano. So there is no reason why we can't list that group separately on

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and restrict it to people and groups who think that A.H. was God incarnate; but, as things stand, I think the broader name still has potential.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20070607202229/http://www.adl.org/main_Extremism/hate_music_in_the_21st_century.htm?Multi_page_sections=sHeading_4

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can cover groups to which Evola is more intimately related.) If it weren't for people like Landig, I would have said move this article to

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could become a disambiguation page. There is no hurry. I am just trying to sort out a growing problem here on Knowledge that the pages on

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tiels and some agreement on the boundaries. I am not going to insist on a particular scheme, but I do want to straighten things out.--

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Here is the problem: Esoteric Nazism can refer to German Nazism or post WWII neonazism ("Neo-Nazism" here on Knowledge). Perhaps

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will immediately discover what is included, and where to read about stuff they might have imagined was included.

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

1330:. I had considered squeezing Evola and the Evolians into this article, but that doesn't seem necessary now that 1796: 1275: 1253: 1768: 1694: 1633: 1278:

be merged into this article anyway. I'll fix the merge tags for now, and come back to your points later on.

1087: 86: 1121:, Spiritual Body and Celestial Earth (trans. Nancy Pearson, Princeton University Press, 1989, pps. 71-72). 1189: 1185: 1752:

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I'm pretty sure the above article is somehow deeply connected to Serrano's and the others' theories...

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http://www.adl.org/main_Extremism/hate_music_in_the_21st_century.htm?Multi_page_sections=sHeading_4

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