Talk:Flag of Australia/Archive 2

3077:

flag of Australia" and should be flown by town halls at leaast. The Menzies government's press release was followed by a similar statement from Chifley in 1947. It was the Chifley government that commissioned a committee that recommended the blue ensign be proclaimed the national flag (although did suggest that an entirely new flag might be more appropriate), and started the distribution of blue ensigns to schools. I think the sentence you quote does a good job of summarising this history, with both Labor and non-labor parties advocating the blue ensign. It would be wrong to downplay the role of the red ensign before 1953, but the issue is not at all simple. Both flags were used by Australian forces, and the first government press release did not receive much coverage, leading an MP to complain in 1947 that people were flyign the red ensign out of ignorance. It might be a good idea to say that the use of the red flag did continue in that decade.

3081:

subservience was explicitly part of their design. It would be fair to say that all uses of these cantons communicated some sense of being under the authority of the king represented by the flag in the canton, but in this context it is hard to see a significant difference between loyalty to the empire and subservience to the monarch. (It is hard to see the difference even in the original heraldic context.) Even if there is a difference, speaking of loyalty rather than subservience is more positive, but surely the intended signficance was positive and that sentences describes the historical (i.e. intended) symbolism. There is a place for arguing that the symbolism is other than intended, and even whether the intended symbolism is appropriate, but not before giving the positive view, and an encyclopedia is not the best place for that argument.

3020:

will find that photos of flags from WW2 have the Red Ensign recoloured blue by artists (In black and white photos red and blue look the same). The Changi flag was red, Mawsons flag at the South Pole was red and when Queen Elizabeth visited Australia in 1954 the crowd waved Red Ensigns not blue. Menzies changed the flag from red to blue right in the middle of his anti communist campaign and he did it without a referendum as it would have failed as the red was more popular with the public. The Red Ensign was the standard national flag from 1901 until 1954. The Red Ensign is the flag our troops fought under in World Wars 1 and 2. If we can't get rid of the demeaning Jack then we should use the Red Ensign purely on historical grounds.

3211:) where this template could bring these images together in a more standard way. Some sort of consistency (not total uniformity, of course) would be good, and I'm currently trying out some different ideas (the German article is my testing bed ATM), so if you have any thoughts on the matter I'd be interested to hear them. I've removed the "design" information, which is explained perfectly well in the intro, so the box is now more complimentary than duplicative. Who knows, perhaps this template is not suitable for this particular entry - there was no harm in giving it a try - but many other articles use it, even though I think the template could do with a bit of work. Remove it if you like, it doesn't bother me. - 1989:! Why be aggressive? Why not be friendly and work together without raising the temperature? The poster suggests to me that it shows the point when various nations "grow up", and suggests that, at that point, they changed their flags from the ones illustrated to the new ones illustrated. In that, the poster is wrong. So, if the consensus is that the poster must stay, for whatever reason (and I don't think many Wiki articles are illustrated by copyrighted material pushing non-neutral points of view, but just supposing....), then let's come up with a caption that ensures the reader is not misled as I was. Cheers! 3163:- where the ensigns also have entries of their own - and various other flag articles. I think the purpose of having the ensigns at the start in this manner is for the benefit of those who do not know much about the flag, which makes sense, and for the benefit of vexillologists who want easy access to the various official versions. Of course Australians know the difference between the ensigns, but others may not. Also, having this information and the other ensigns is more informative than what was previously there (the image of the national flag followed by a photo it). - 298:

the the States and Territories are listed under the Flags Acts as "Flags of "Australia" since they are not technically flags of Australia - but flags of subnational entites (Ausflag is probably counting them as official flags, hence the numerical disparity). If there are only 16 I think the gallery can stay - it could be broken into smaller sections if more deail was added for each of the official flags, the text could also explain the dates confusion. It could be divided into Aboriginal/Torres Strait; Queen, Gov General and State Govenors and Defence sections.--

3065:

political viewpoints, and is generally more NPOV that your comments, which reflect old Ausflag arguments rather than serious recent research. We try to present the verifiable facts, whether or not they are usually accompanied by political arguments, leaving the connotations out. We certainly try to avoid assuming that flag change opponents are monarchists. There are quite a few republicans who support the current flag. (It seems less likely that there are monarchists calling for a new flag, but I wouldn't rule it out.)

3073:, which is probably the best work on the issue of the two ensigns, and is definitely not written in support of the current flag, devotes a whole chapter to the events from 1940-1953, and does not give much credit to the "blue ensign as politically motivated anti-communism" speculation, saying the steps towards the blue ensign were convenient for Menzies in his campaign against communists, but suggesting it was the natural consequence of the ideal of a single national flag. 31: 2475: 2164:. This is only one of the theories of its adaptation from the ensign of the Royal Navy's blue squadron, the other is that the blue squadron was chiefly responsible for the world beyond the Americas and Europe hence the reason colonies there used the blue ensign. Whatever the truth, it seems that the blue ensign was the origin of the design not the sky, sea nor the fluffy blue belly button fluff found on fluffy baby wallabies. 2483: 3176:, I am slightly bothered that such a (long) infobox gives the wrong impression that the article is about all the flags shown. (The UK case is slightly different, as it is not the main article about the flag itself, but that is another issue.) It may indeed be better to have consistency in displaying all the national flags on one page, but surely that would mean writing the article differently, as at 2748: 2699: 2732: 2683: 3110:

longer appropriate. The question of whether this means we should change the flag, or just think of it in a different way as representing our history, is a matter of opinion that should really not be dealt with in this article outside the flag debate section. The article probably could place more emphasis on the use of the red ensign and the Union Flag itself. How about:

263:

of Australia" in this article, not the ones that are official as flags in individual states. Ausflag doesn't make it clear which is which - other sources say it is only the various ensigns based on the national flag, the defence force ensign and the indigenous flags. Obviously the section might not stay as it looks now - that's why we're talking about it here.

283:

the design, or the fact that the RAAF had a flag? In 1922, the RAF flag was adopted as the RAAF flag. A unique flag was chosen in 1948, and the current version was adopted/proclaimed as a Flag of Australia in 1982. If we use 1922 for this flags, then we can't use the dates we have for the governor's flags, as earlier versions of these existed as well.

1795:

image on a Wiki page without comment seems to give it factual credibility which it simply does not have. Since the image is also copyrighted, I wonder whether this is should be here at all - I don't think anyone is suggesting the image should be tampered with, only removed. Excellent article, however, congratulations to all concerned.

2172:

adopted, and the only possible problem I see with this statement is if it implies that this interpretation is widespread. Apart from that, "world beyong the Americas and Europe" theory doesn't sit well with the fact that the colonies also used the red ensign. (Also, baby wallabies are distinctly unfluffy.)

456:

to each already for use in this article). Foley lists the RAN Ensign as being proclaimed under the flags act on 1 March 1967. The RAA Ensign is a bit more complicated, the 1948 design was approved by King George and adopted in 1949. The current version was proclaimed pursutant to the flags act in 1982.--

3143:

I don't really see how the infobox is any more helpful than the lead section is by itself. But even if it is a helpful addition, is it really a good idea to include the other ensigns? This article is clearly written to be about the blue flag now called the "Australian National Flag", with the red and

2917:

This sentence lacks context. Although Menzies encouraged the use of the blue ensign from 1941 the red ensign remained more popular and was the flag Australian forces used throughout WW2 which is not made clear in the artical. Menzies himself said that "red" was no longer a "respectable" colour. Given

1316:

I like the first and third options (although with text centred). I don't like the white background at all; it strikes me as odd when all other boxes (images, toc, templates) are grey. Also, though I'm not sure why, all images apart the Eureka Flag don't appear for me (and potentially others :) in the

922:

Did anyone else see the news yesterday where they claimed someone was sentanced to three years jail for burning the flag? Interesting seeign burning of the Australian flag is not against the law. I think the truth is that he was jailed for stealing and burning someone elses property (RSL club's flag)

439:

Now that we only have five, it would be good to have a table like the other one. The two issues I can see are - would five flags fit well? and would it be copyvio to show the Aboriginal and TSI flags? Also, it would be good to get hold of the date on which the RAN Ensign was actually proclaimed under

262:

Yes, it's interesting, but the gallery takes up a lot of space. Anyway, there are 26 "official flags" - whatever Ausflag means by that. It seems strange to include the governor's flags, but only mention the state flags. It would make more sense to me to only list/show the flags proclaimed as a "flag

2830:

21:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC) Basically, because it does. The original design had stars with 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 points, reflecting their relative brightness in the sky, but in London the four brighter stars were all made seven-pointed to make the flag easier to manufacture, as explained in the article. I

2770:

In 2004 Howard passed the "Schools Assistance (Learning Together through Choice and Opportunity) Act 2004" requiring all schools to fly the Australian flag by 2008 (originally it was intended to make the kids salute the flag and sing the national anthem as well but this was dropped due to opposition

2439:

There is no way known the blue background to the Australian flag could be considered a remnant of the Eureka flag. Australians back in 1901 would not have been able to draw the Eureka flag if their lives depended on it. This flag of protest was not as well known in the relatively recent past as some

2171:

It sounds like waffle, but not feigning knowledge. The article doesn't suggest that the sea or sky were the origins of the blue, but that the colour has been interpreted as also have that symbolism. It is quite normal for flags to have (waffly) meanings attached to their colours well after they were

742:

Thanks for removing the "unquestionably", btw. The sentence definitely didn't come out the way I had intended. I'm not sure how far we can go with Foley saying the flag was "chosen" in 1953, though. Menzies said he was formalising what was already the common practice, and both he and Chifley treated

153:

It is not clear in this tabel what the dates refer to. For the Aboriginal flag, 1971 is given, the date the flag was first flown. It was proclaimed a national flag in 1995. For the Torres Strait Islander flag, the date 1995 is given, the date it was proclaimed a national flag. It was designed in

3114:

By traditional British understanding, the Blue Ensign would be reserved for Commonwealth Government use, with State and local governments, private organisations and individuals all using the Red Ensign. However, in the 1940s, successive governments allowed and encouraged private citizens to use the

3080:

As for the canton, in heraldry it is indeed the honour point and an indicator of subservience. The notion of honour point does seem to have carried on into vexillology, but the use of national flag cantons in flags appears to have begun with the British ensigns, and it is not clear that the idea of

3076:

Support for the blue flag seems to have ben most apparent in the Victorian state government during the and the staff of the prime minister's department. The department suggesting making the blue ensign the national flag in 1939. In 1940, the department said the blue version was "really the national

3019:

Firstly....write on my talk page not the user page. In WW1 we fought under the Union Jack but also used Ensigns, Red Ensigns used by the Army outnumbered Blue ensigns by 10 to 1. During WW2 the Blue Ensign was rarely seen as it was restricted to the Navy, government buildings and schools. Often you

2555:

be used when writing dates in Knowledge. So, because the commas do show up, and the manual of style says to have the commas there, I am going to have to revert you again. But also, since I don't actually really care whether or not they are there, I'm just gonna leave them alone if your revert me. -

1751:

when she replaced the link. The AFS is a splinter group of ANFA, and their link has been repeatedly removed as linkspam. I agree with Peta's description of it as a "peripheral organisation". There are already links to both Ausflag and ANFA, which is probably enough for an article which is after all

1330:

I don't know why you can't see them - it's the option currently in the article - can you see it ok there? I can't really tell any difference regarding the backgrounds, so I'm not bothered. Viewing it on a screen with lower resolution, I can't really see any spacing differences between the first and

455:

I think the five would look OK in a table like the one in the history section. the Aborigial and Torres Striat Islander flags would definately be fair use in an article like this as they are being discussed in their role as "Flags of Australia" and are only being shown as thumbs (I added rationales

282:

work here. Using 1995 for the indigenous peoples flags implies that it is the date proclaimed as a Flag of Australia, or at least in some way recognised by a government body. The flags were definitely adopted by others before then. The RAAF flag is a more interesting case - should the date refer to

2456:

The competition that gave Australians their flag is the really unique thing about the symbol. Letting people express their view on what the distinguising flag of their country should look like was a quite unusual approach to take for the times. The judges report to the Prime Minister made it quite

685:

The current version almost implies that the Anti-Transportation League flag was intended as a national flag. I was thinking that this flag and the Eureka flag should be left to other parts of the section/article, mentioned only as influences on the Australian flag, but I can see reasons for having

601:

A short mention wouldn't hurt. The Federation Flag in particular deserves a mention, as Barton preferred it, and even sent it to London as an alternative to the winning design. As for the union flags, we could say that as Australia was British colonies, the Union Flag was used along with flags for

297:

I've removed the dates since they are sort of confusing. I made the gallery based on the list that was formerly in the article of flags approved as offfical flags of Australia - I counted 16. I have emailed the relevant part of the Prime Minsters office for clarification. I doubt that the flags of

3099:

Thx for the detailed reply. Sorry for sounding POV but it does upset me to see what looks like monarchist arguements in an encylopedia lol. The colour I have no preference for (I actually dislike red) but it is POV to play down the significance (or popularity) of the red ensign. My main complaint

2443:

How else can you explain the fact that the Eureka flag used in the 1949 film "Eureka Stockade" starring Chips Rafferty was, in technical terms, the fly-half of the Australian national flag? Yes, that's right, the Eureka flag shown was the Southern Cross from the Australian flag, not 5 white stars

2156:

The blue colour has been interpreted to have a broader significance than a continuation of the Union Jack. It has been described as representing Australia as an island continent, as a symbol of the journey humans had to make to reach Australia, as the blue sky, and as a remnant of the Eureka Flag

738:

The Review of Reviews announcement mentions that hte prize only applies if the winner is better than the Evening Herald design. Foley is quoted saying that the RoR entries were turned over to the Government competition, the letter from the RoR says the competitions were almagamated. I guess there

532:

The thing is, if I use the phrase "blue ensign" in a purely Australian context, it probably means the Australian national flag. There are other flags (the Customs flag, for example) that could be described as defaced (Australian) blue ensigns. That clearly isn't what is meant here, so it could be

1794:

Quite a number of the flags on the poster seem to be bogus. The US flag was never in the form illustrated, the South African flag pre-1994 was not that illustrated, and the Irish flag (a red saltire on white or St Patrick's cross) was totally different from the one illustrated. Placing such an

797:

Thanks. I'm going to reword the bit around 1941-1954, since Menzies' push to adopt the blue ensign started well before 1953, and depending on the exact nature of the King's approval in 51, it already was officially the national flag by 53. However, I personally would be inclined to leave out the

507:

Just to explain - I think the history detail in the intro is necessary, otherwise people will get quite worked up about simplifications such as "not proclaimed as official flag until 1954". Although "British Blue Ensign" may not be strictly necessary, it is a good idea, especially as it is quite

3109:

I think there is no doubt that it was originally intended to display loyalty and symbolise being part of the Empire - saying this is not arguing that we should keep the flag. Whether we call it loyalty or subservience, it should be obvious that if we are no longer a colony, this symbolism is no

3064:

While we obviously wish to make this article as NPOV and accurate as possible, I would suggest there is something wrong if errors in the history of the flag are seen as "offensive", rather than simply inaccurate. This article has been worked on with much discussion and input from people of many

404:

I'm wary of including the Tri-service flag, but not the other military ensigns. The RAN and RAAF ensigns are definitely flags representing Australian nationality, as used by the particular forces, whereas it is not clear whether the Tri-service flag is simply the flag of the Defence Force. Then

1556:

I notice the article gives two different descriptions for the number of points on the commonwealth star. ie. that the star had 6 plus one for papua or 6 and one for all the territories. I assume it was originally for papua but has since been changed to represent all of Australia's territories.

769:

Yes, we don't know exactly how popular it was. The most we have is Menzies' comment that the Act was formalising what was already common practice in 1953. This could have been already the case in 1941, or been a result of Menzies' and Chifley's directives, or of the approval by George VI in 51

346:

much detail about any of these flags, most of which have articles of their own, but it would make sense to restrict it to only national-level flags. I agree with Cyberjunkie about the gallery (the Mexico one is much smaller, and serves a different purpose), but I guess it's not a major issue.

1639:

state that the flag was an Australian National Flag. I'm not sure that my version reads that well either, though. Is it enough to say "This flag was not a replica of the original flag but was a current Australian National Flag with a special headband, including a cardinal red stripe and the

759:

The main problem with the acceptance of the blue ensign is that, as far as I have read, noone ever asked the public, so we can never really know which flag was in widest use and which one the public supported. The only record is of Menzies' and Chiefly's 41 and 47 directives to use the blue

1263:

That does look better JPD. Nixie, what did you have in mind? Did you mean making the entire thing transparent so it looks as if it's floating, or did you mean just remove/replace the background. I think it looks good as is, and I don't think there's anything wrong with using a table over a

376:

list the flags proclaimed as Flags of Australia, especially given the title of the article is what it is, not "Australian National Flag"! I'm not too optimistic about the PMs office - their website lists a few, but leaves out some that definitely were proclaimed under the flags act.

2954:

Wayne should know the Royal Australian Navy has used the blue Australian flag as a battle flag since the inception of the fleet in 1911. It was the flag HMAS Syndey flew during the clash with the Emden at the start of WW1. Banjo Patterson wrote a poem about it "Were all Australians

1423:

FYI per email sent by Commonwealth Flag Network (subscription service) 16 January 2006. I thought it coould be an info item at the top of the page, without a section header so it doesn't get lost. Feel free to tremove if you disgree. I would propose to remove within 24 hours.

2380:

It was definitely more than nationwide, but I'm not sure worldwide is accurate. The Review of Reviews competition was open to "all Australasia". At any rate, it's not an issue of "neutrality", as far as I can tell, and definitely not serious enough to dispute the whole article.

533:

seen as redundant to say "British", but it does reduce the chances for confusion. It is slightly odd for the article to use "blue ensign" as though that obviously means the British one, and then later use it to refer to the Australian blue ensign (as opposed to the red).

665:

I agree we should remove it (we probably don't want all the details anyway) - I was just pointing out that is was probably contributed by the guy that wrote it in the first place. Then again, there also used to be whole paragraphs from the ANFA website, so who knows.

361:

I'm happy to be rid of the gallery, but I think we should provide some minimal level of information about each flag that is listed under the Act, and some representative images. Hopefully the PMs offic and/or Ausflag get back to me soon so we know which flags are

2138:

I concur that this is till a missing item in the article and it is disappointing that it is not mentioned. Especially given that the New Zealand flag predated the Australian design apparently being introduced in 1869 according to the article on the flag of NZ.

1506:

Is there a better way to say that the two lobby groups are not aligned with politcal parties? They are clearly political, since they are lobbying regarding a political issue. I guess it's obvious what is meant, but I'm still not particlarly comfortable with it.

1415:

On Tuesday 17 January the Australian National Flag should be flown at half-mast all day , Australia-wide, from all buildings and establishments occupied by Australian Government departments and affiliated agencies. This is as a mark of mourning and respect for

2159:

This is indicated as being gleaned from an external reference, so it is not entirely unfair to include it, but pllllease for the love of sanity! doesn't this just smack of waffle from someone trying to feign knowledge? There is a better theory of its roots on

952:

Exactly. It's perfectly legal to burn a flag if you own it (and there's no fire ban, etc). But the history section is fairly long, and the flag burning issue doesn't really deserve to be there. Should it get it's own section, or go at the end of Protocol?

1834:

I've removed the strange comment about the poster being inaccurate because some of the flags shown were not in use "at the time of British conquest" because it's irrelevant. This is not the place to conduct a debate-by-stealth on the merits of Ausflag.

2965: 3068:

Addressing your second point first, there definitely is a lot more context that could be given to the move towards the blue ensign in the 1940s, but if we were to add more it could not be as simplistic as your description above. Elizabeth Kwan's book

1947:

There is nothing "erroneous" here apart from your attitude. You seem to be under the impression that unless the flag shown was the one in use at the time of "British conquest" it is "erroneous". This is utterly fallacious and misleading on your part.

2284:

an AGB-McNair poll in 1995 that asked, "If a suitable design for a new Australian flag were found, would you be likely to support or oppose changing the flag in time for the 2000 Olympics?", found support among 50% of respondents and opposition from

3100:

however is the Union flag in it. We are no longer a colony so it has no place anymore and seems (to me) to be POV to say loyalty. I'll go with the majority on what it should say but just put in my 2 cents to see if others felt an edit was needed.

2977:

The internet is so powerful. Supporters of the Canadian red ensign might have been able to resist the imposition of the maple leaf flag if they had the advantages of instaneous forms of communications Australian monarchists have at their disposal

2771:

and is now only encouraged). In my state at least there was massive public opposition to this because children should not have patriotism brainwashed into them. As a result most schools here ignore it. Should this get a mention? Views anyone?

2447:

I understand the producers of the movie went to Ballarat to do research for the project and everything. Apparently nobody who lived there in the late 1940s was able to provide an accurate descrpition of the famous Eureka flag looked like...

1608:

Also I was reading that in Ivor's (14yo boy) design the four large stars of the southern cross stood for the four moral virtues of justice, prudence, temperance and fortitude. Some sources seem to claim they mean that in our current flag.

2527:

No, commas do not appear on the page (not in Firefox 2.0 anyway). It has never been proper — not in Knowledge anyway — to place commas between month and year (eg, 16 November 2005), only between day and year (eg, November 16, 2005). See

770:(waht's the source for that, btw?). Anyway, since we say the flag was "put forth" as the national flag in 41, 47, 51, is it really appropriate to say anything about the Flags Act in 1953, other than it legislated the status of the flag? 569:

I like the text, as long as everyone thinks it reads well enough, particularly the part about the diameters. I think that needs to be included, either as text before/after the positions (as it is now), or with the positions in a table.

341:

the statutory flags and state flags. The source for this is Ausflag, which isn't very clear about which ones are proclaimed under the Flags Act and which are official for other reasons. I'm not really sure that we need to add

2831:

don't think there is any reason why the five pointed star wasnt' changed, other than the fact that if it were made bigger, the cross wouldn't look as good. It is by far the least visible star in the constellation, and in the

1774:

This poster is factually incorrect. The flag it uses for Ireland at British conquest was only adopted in 1801, well after the actual conquest. That poster should have that actual Irish flag of the time, like that harp flag.

3115:

Australian Blue Ensign as the national emblem. This was not widely reported, and many still flew the Red Ensign, while the Union Flag remained the flag of choise in many situations that called for a national flag. In 1951,

2562:

Well that's weird, that commas show up on yours and not on mine? Anyway you obviously did not read the MOS very well, because it does not say that at all. I've taken something from the MOS date format section, see below:

2289:

I wonder how much, if any, the inclusion of the word "suitable" affected this poll. Have there been polls that simply asked, "Do you support or oppose changing the flag?" If so, what were the results? Just curious.

2966:

http://www.australianflag.org.au/image.php?image=images/body/graphics/hmassydney.jpg&comment=Commemorating%20the%20Naval%20Victory%20of%20the%20HMAS%20Sydney%20over%20the%20German%20Light%20Cruiser%20Emden,%201914

2905:"The Union Flag is commonly thought to reflect Australia's history as a collection of British colonies, although a more historic view sees its inclusion in the design as demonstrating loyalty to the British Empire." 1812:

I've restored the poster. Whether any of the flags on it are erroneous or not is entirely beside the point. The purpose of including the poster is to illustrate an Ausflag marketing campaign to promote flag change.

250:

It is intereting that Australia actaully has 16 official flags, and it is useful for the reader to be able to see them. Since its early stages in the reworking of the article the section might not stay as it looks

619:

I'm not sure the military stuff is especially relvant - it's largely the domain of the pro-flag people. The indecision over the Red vs. Blue Ensign prior to 1953 as the civil flag is definately worth mentioning.

864:

It's actually quite unusual for flags to have official RGB specifications, as they are meant to be in cloth, not on a screen. Since there isn't a reliable way of converting, I think it's best to leave them out.

854:

All the Symbols book has is the Pantone, the Symbols book is the only place I could find any infomation. I did the conversion to RGB with Paint, I don't mind dropping the RGB info if it could be problematic.--

2299:

This 1995 poll would seem to suggest a fairly weak attachment to the existing Australian flag. A much more recent Newspoll which appeared in the Daily Telegraph on Australia Day 2003 made these findings:

2211:

Currently, in the summary, is this phrase a few lines from the top "The flag is a defaced Blue Ensign:". "Defaced" has a strong negative connotation (at least in the US), which is probably not intended.

590:

Should the hisotry section mention flags pre 1901? In addition to the first Union and current union flags which were both used in the Colony there were a few attempts at national flags in the lead up to

1116:

Possibly. Its presentation as a centenary flag seems to make it belong in history. Its use as a ceremonial flag of state makes me think it's more along the lines of the Banderas Monumentales section in

1354:

What browser are you using CJ? sounds like it could be a problem with SVG support. I think the Eureka flag is the only one I created from scratch the others where modified from the Australian Flag. --

798:"speculation", partly because it's not much more than speculation, and also because while it might have been a factor in 1953, I doubt it was the original reason in 1941. Does anyone object to this? 278:

On the subject of dates again, I think the dates either need to be left out, or clarified even more. On the whole, I find using a single date for a each flag in a list bound to be difficult, but it

739:

isn't really a direct link shown between the Evening Herald design and the government competition, but it is an example of some of the alternatives that were floating around and possibly submitted.

638:

usually avoids people trying to make massive generalisations either way. (BTW, I don't think it's copyvio - at least one of the anons getting worked up on the talk page was the guy from the AFS.)

3044:

Menzies didn't change the colour of the flag. Elizabeth Kwan is one of the most rabid flag changers out there and not even she subscribed that that view in her monumental work "Flag and Nation".

337:

I agree that the state flags have probably not been proclaimed as "Flags of Australia", but the same goes for the governor's of the state flags. The article listed those 16 as the official flags

3041:

It's the flag that Australia has grown up under and the flag that has been associated with all of her many achievements on the international scene. Its a time honoured symbol of Australia.

2067:. This is one of the arguments given on both sides of the Tasman for changing the respective flags. I would have done so but couldn't work out where to put it on the lovely featured page. 201:

Each state was essentially independant prior to 1901, so responsible for their own flag. I'm not sure if the dates in the article are correct, according to the NSW government's website (

729:

Mabye mention that there were other competitions, but I can't see were it mentions on that page that any entires from the other competitions were ever adopted in any offical capacity.--

420:

Note that the reference "BillsDigest42" backs my understanding that the only flags proclaimed under section 5 are the RAN Ensign, RAAF Ensign, Aboriginal Flag, TSI Flag and ADF Ensign.

3180:? As for more informative, apart from the issue of extra ensigns, the question is whether we want an infobox duplicating the information to its left, or a picture to complement it. 2725:

and look at the raw text. And if you get the same answer as when logged in then maybe we should get someone else to explain why this occurs? -- Marco 04:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

788:

and in some of the hard copy sources I have. Thanks for noticing the Flags approved under the act - we can modify the other flags section. It should proably just mention the 5.--

839:? I haven't seen them before, and it's not a good idea to include specifications unless they are official. There is not a single way to convert between Pantone, RGB, CMYK, etc. 1300:

Last option now has centred captions. Of course, this makes it more obvious that it's not a gallery, but it looks much better, so that shouldn't matter. I like this version.

908:

Shouldn't there be some mention around this point in the article that the colors used in the National Flag are not the National colors of Australia ? To avoid confusion .

190:

I just placed in date order, and it raised the question for me - why were the states' flags proclaimed on very different dates as official Australian flags? Anybody know?--

2909:

Historically (and in Heraldry) the placing of another countries flag in the upper left quadrant (the vexillological honour point) indicates "subservience" not "loyalty".

1135:

Ok, I think it should probably come after -other flags- (I'll probably expand this to a more rounded paragraph over the weekend) and before the flag debate section. --

1144:

That seems fair enough. I put it before "other flags", because it is special version of the flag the article is mainly about, rather than a completely separate flag.

2460:

Should we make more of the competition in the article? I understand there are phtographs that were taken of the competition entries that still survive to this day.

1689:

I agree a very good article. Congrats to all concerned on it being a featured article. Good to see that a NPOV retained in what could easily have become polemic.

3248:

Some of the 32,000 entries to the government competition were actually submitted to another earlier competition held by a Melbourne journal the Review of Reviews.

1254:

Yes, thanks. Do you think that it would look better if there was no background colour, it might be harder to tell that we're using a table rather than a gallery.--

2572:

to work, displaying the reader’s chosen format. The day and the month should be linked together, and the year should be linked separately if present. For example:

2436:

For a flag that in no way symbolises Australian nationality the Eureka flag is mentioned quite a few times in the article on the one that does. Too many really.

988: 2877:

I assume you mean the 3 minutes past part. At 11:00 a bugle is blown along with a minutes silence so the 3 minutes allows time for this before raising the flag.

2759: 2722: 2533: 2529: 1864:. True, the UK flag wasn't the Irish flag - I think that one is intended to signify that it was part of the UK at one time and as such used the UK flag. -- 440:

the Flags Act, then we could include the dates for it and the RAAF Ensign. I don't know whether the pre-81 RAAF ensign was ever proclaimed under the act.

2373:

Shouldn't we describe it as a worldwide competition because it was open to non-Australians? One of the winning entries was submitted by a New Zealander.

1885:

I've changed the description to accurately summarise the poster's intent. Obviously it is intended to show that a group of former British colonies that

2231:

Can you provide a link to a dictionary definition of "defaced" that does NOT have negative connotations? I think it is completely the wrong word.

1717: 1208:

Yes... so the 100px in the image markup is the width, rather than the height of the image? IMHO the flags would look better with the same height.

939:

Yep, the charges were - one count of entering a building with the intent of committing an indictable offence and one of malicious damage by fire.

90: 2901:

There are two sentences that reflect a POV that I find offensive. The wording used is the POV grammar monarchists use in opposing a flag change.

2457:

clear they saw their duty as selecting a design that was generally representative of all entries received which I though was pretty democratic.

970:

I think at the end of protocol would be best, I think it fits best there and I think the article has about the right number of sections as is.--

1383:

Looks fine in IE, Firefox in Classic and Monobook with XP for me. You seem to get losts of image errors could it be a problem on your end?--

2869: 2402:"In all, 32 823 entries were received from all over the world and from people of all ages and backgrounds, even an unamed state Governor." 1748: 940: 3275:

article? Even more valid than this article, I'd say. So, any objections to modifying the fair use criteria so it suits both articles? -

3050: 2996: 1524: 3220:

Since I am not the only one who doesn't think this article needs an infobox, and there is no strong feeling for it, I have removed it.

2672:

Please show me where in MOS a comma should be used when writing dates in day-month-year format? -- Marco 04:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

523:

On the British blue ensign, all blue ensigns are based off the British version, it's redundant, like saying I have a Chinese dim sum.--

3194:

I don't think an infobox is at all required, and this particular design is far too obtrusive. Not every article requires an infobox.--

2913:"However, in the 1940s, successive governments encouraged private citizens to use the Australian Blue Ensign as the national emblem." 1729: 2676:

Maybe there really is something wrong with your browser or something, because where you have in red text the words "no comma used"

2399:

I quote from the third edition (2006) of the "Australian flags" booklet published by the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet:

229:

The flags there are the state governor's flags, not the state flags - the table should reflect this. The dates are as described at

2417:

I've contacted the Australian National Flag Association and they confirm their website is wrong and that the year 1985 is correct.

1475:

Add pic of Parliament House flag pole? Biggest pole and flag in Australia, incorporates this trivia without adding it to the text.

2492: 2238: 1640:

inscription..."? After all, the very first 1901 flag would have had different nubmers of points on some of the other stars, too.

1459:

Is there anything else that could be added to make the Flag Day section more substantial. Compare with other countries flag days?

1417: 76: 71: 59: 2667:. In this case, it may be preferable not to link the date at all, as the link does not then help with readers’ date preferences. 2191: 1195: 898:

They also suggest that the Blue be #000099 when using Web Safe 216 colors, though this info is pretty much redundant nowadays.

2762:, which I think is a better example for date format styles wrt regions/countries. All the best. 04:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC) 2410:

The first time the 3 September was celebrated as "Flag Day" at any level in the community was at Hyde Park in 1985. Not 1984.

2119:

As a featured article, I think it should be mentioned that the two flags are similar, as it would only require one sentance.--

2280:

As an American, I have no particular horse in this debate, but I find it interesting. I happened to take note of this line:

1277:

Hmm. I tried it without the background color. It also looked a bit spread out, so I've got a few options in the sandbox now.

154:

1992. We should have date of design or date of proclamation, or both dates and it should be clear what the date refers to.--

1466:

also be added to this article? Probably less relvant here, but could make an explicit mention of ANZAC and Rememberence Day.

2352:

This page states that Flags on Australian government buildings are to be flown on half mast "On the death of a member of

2819: 1861: 508:

valid to call the national flag the Australian blue ensign, and simiilarly for other defacements of the blue ensign.

393:

How about a 4 flag gallery with the Queens flag, the Tri-service flag, and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Flags?--

3173: 3160: 2729:

Yeah, I don't think it really matters. I mean, it's just a few commas. So, I'm gonna not worry about it anymore. -

1635:

I changed the wording in the Centenary flag section, because it seemed strange to discuss the number of points and

38: 2781:

A short, neutral, description of requirements under the act would make a good addition to the protocol section. --

2063:

There should be a comment on the page about how the Flag of Australia is similar to (and often confused with) the

785: 605:

On a similar topic, is it worth saying anything more about how the flag was used 1901-54, to replace the copyvio?

2507:(please edit this comment if you know how to make the photos go side-by-side, then delete the bracketed message) 2463:

I can see people who want to look up information on the Australian flag being really interested in these images.

2376:

We should put a box with words "the neutrality of this article is in dispute" at the top of the article for now.

2321:

You will note that the number of people 'strongly' opposed is more than the number of people in favour combined.

1857: 1106:

Since the desecration material has moved, would this section be more appropriate added to the hisotry section?--

205:) their flag dates from 1876, and I'd expect most other state's flags would have been from around the same time 3271:

has valid fair use criteria for its inclusion in this article, surely it should also be valid to use it in the

3268: 2865: 992: 2741: 2692: 2081:

I agree we should add a section for this. But maybe it should be a different article. Anyone have any ideas?

3054: 3000: 1856:

There might be minor reproduction errors but I don't think they are "bogus". Check the Grand Union flag at

1528: 1036: 202: 2396:

The official government competition was as worldwide as anything could be at the turn of the 20th century.

1725: 3272: 3254: 2814: 2253: 2242: 2094: 656:, unless we have explicit permission to uses someone elses text in bulk we really shouldn't be doing so.-- 470: 47: 17: 2888: 2861: 2736: 2687: 2557: 2522: 2511: 2501: 1291:

The images in the last option are a good size, would it be possible to centre the text under each flag?--

2809: 2291: 2068: 1680: 1542:

By my reckoning all three defence ensigns would be held under crown copyright - does this sound right?--

1397: 1375: 1322: 1269: 1077: 1055: 1010: 313: 169: 1659:

Congratulations to everyone on what has to be the easiest featured article candicy I have ever seen. --

2569: 2370:

The Australian government's 1901 Federal Flag design competition was advertised in foreign countries.

1721: 405:

again, if it is just to give an illustration, and is obviously not a complete list, it might be good.

3208: 2857: 2660: 2234: 2324:

An awful lot has changed in Australia since 1995 and maybe that should be reflected in the article.

3283: 2832: 2098: 2064: 1738: 1425: 191: 155: 139:

The SVG image in the Construction sheet section doesn't show up in either Firefox or IE for me. --

2342: 1434:

I was wondering how good that service was, I have added a breif mention to the protocol section.--

942:

but "flag buring" makes a good headline with the Australian media playing up the race-war angle.--

559:, I tend to think that the text as is looks better, but I was wondering that other people think.-- 2568:

If a date includes both a month and a day, then the date should almost always be linked to allow

2086: 1665: 1615: 1594: 1563: 1360: 1031: 929: 479: 125: 3207:

I agree. But you can see that many flag articles contain a long column of thumbnail images (eg.

2649: 909: 140: 1573:

Your assumption is correct, the only territory in 1908 was Papua, NT and ACT were after 1910.--

714:, which was included in the Review of Review competition that was "adopted" by the government? 2799: 2792: 2663:

with alternate text, for example "]". This should only be done with good reason, such as in a

2303:

Q. Are you in favour or against changing the Australian flag to remove the Union Jack emblem?

2125: 2111: 1690: 1179:

Does anyone have any idea why the Eureka flag is showing up slightly larger than the others?

653: 3025: 2718: 2195: 1676: 1393: 1371: 1318: 1265: 1234: 1073: 1051: 1021: 1006: 899: 555:

Originally I had put a table in the construction section showing the stars details, it's in

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I thought it wouldnt' hurt to have the half-mast details. The flag pole pic would be good.

177:

I've tried to clarify the dates, but I don't really care if they are in the table or not.--

96: 3177: 2551:

appear on the page. Also, the manual of style that you have linked to, shows that a comma

2474: 2332: 2102: 2033: 2029: 1990: 1796: 1786: 1626: 1574: 1543: 1521:

You'll find the Australian National Flag Association is a registered educational charity.

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Why can't the page include a link to the Australian Flag Society www.flagsociety.org.au ?

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Was the red ensign the flag Australian forces used during WW2 was it? Have a look here:

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Is the article online? Could you please provide the URL and I will update the article.--

2294: 2265: 2246: 2226: 2216: 2198: 2181: 2143: 2131: 2105: 2071: 2036: 1993: 1952: 1922: 1893: 1868: 1839: 1817: 1799: 1789: 1779: 1761: 1742: 1703: 1693: 1683: 1669: 1649: 1629: 1619: 1598: 1577: 1567: 1546: 1532: 1516: 1495: 1453: 1438: 1428: 1400: 1387: 1378: 1364: 1340: 1325: 1309: 1295: 1286: 1272: 1258: 1246: 1227: 1217: 1202: 1188: 1162: 1153: 1139: 1130: 1110: 1089: 1080: 1067: 1063:

There were a few territorial flags in one and not the other, I've shifted them across.--

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Al-Jaber Al-Sabah, the Amir of the State of Kuwait (His Highness Sheikh Jaber Al-Ahmad)

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Why does the small star have only five points instead of seven? This should be added.

2471:

There is another photo of the flag which offers a full view (unlike the current one):

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We didn't make the poster, its an Ausflag ad. We can's edit fair use images either.--

1757: 1660: 1645: 1610: 1589: 1558: 1512: 1491: 1355: 1336: 1305: 1282: 1242: 1213: 1184: 1149: 1126: 958: 924: 884:) states the following colors for when the Australian Flag is depicted on web sites: 870: 844: 803: 775: 748: 719: 691: 671: 643: 610: 575: 538: 513: 474: 445: 425: 410: 382: 352: 288: 268: 237: 164:

I'm not sure it should stay at all, and if it does, the gallery must be abandoned. --

120: 1449:

Mostly a list for me to go over, but as always, help and opinions are appreciated.--

308:

I think that would be a better option. Galleries just don't look good in articles.--

3199: 2422: 2223: 2165: 2140: 2121: 101: 3101: 3021: 2919: 2878: 2772: 2731: 2682: 2621: 2609: 2592: 2584: 2161: 1700: 995:(the former to the later) since they basically duplicate the same informtaion?-- 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

2717:

for displaying dates. Try logging out clearing your cache and seeing the page (

1194:

The Eureka Flag isn't 1:2, it is 13:20, there is lots of good info on the flag

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them there, as long as it doesn't suggest it was meant to be a national flag.

2713:

used by logged in users. I'm using an anon user account where we do not use

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third options, either, but I do prefer the larger flags in the 4th option.

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Definitely sounds like waffle. Just look at all the similar flags on the

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They're not the state flags, they are the flags of the state govenors.--

3195: 119:

A few useful references for helping bring the article up to scratch. --

230: 2222:

Defaced is the proper term, as the linked article clearly indicates.

1675:

Yes, good work all with emphatic thanks to nixie, JPD and Martyman.--

1747:

I have removed it again, as it appears AYArtkos was thinking of the

1699:

Agreed. Well done to all contributors. One of the best recent FA's.

881: 711:

Should we also mention the winner of the Evening Herald competition

1223:

If you know how to adjust it to make it so, then you sould do it.--

2854:

Why does it say the flag should be at halfmast from 10:30 to 11:03

2532:

for more on Wiki guidelines regarding date formats. And also see

743:

it as the de facto national flag in their comments in the 1940s.

2637: 2624: 2613: 2032:

has solved the problem by finding a better poster. Thank you!

1981:

Hey, we're all in this together! Let's be constructive! Let's

1914:

Whatever its intent, the fact is that it is erroneous, and that

232:. I'm not really sure about having this gallery in the article. 2440:

of its more ardent modern day admirers would have you beleive.

2343:

http://www.newspoll.com.au/cgi-bin/polling/display_poll_data.pl

2093:

The similaraity with other flags is discussd at some length in

631:

Yes, it is often talked about by pro-flag people, but having a

469:

I put together a table displaying the other official flags at

25: 107: 1050:

There wasn't anything to merge, so I simply redirected it.--

652:

Several sections of the old text were idential to those on

1469:

Fair use rationales for 3 Defence Ensigns, Ausflag poster.

654:

http://www.flagsociety.org.au/Australian-National-Flag.htm

2659:

To create a date that is linked but not converted, use a

2356:

royal family." Which royal families does this apply to?

3251:

The article makes no mention of the Review of Reviews.

1625:

That'd make a good addition to the symbolism section.--

556: 1889:

used a flag containing the Union Jack no longer do. --

2498:

The only problem I can see is that it is too bright.

2194:. Do all of those flags share the same significance? 2944:

http://www.australianflag.org.au/anzactradition.php

2987:Long live the Australian flag and its Union Jack! 3144:white ensigns covered in articles of their own. 2536:for incorrect and correct ways of writing dates. 2510:The new one is way better. It should be used. - 1392:It must be, although I haven't a clue what. :(-- 2538:-- Regards Marco 03:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC) 473:. I hope they are the 5 you are refering to. -- 2932:http://en.wikipedia.org/Australian_flag_debate 2547:I actually use Firefox 2.0 and yes the commas 1737:The society is represented in external links-- 989:Flags of the Australian states and territories 1411:For info: why is the flag at half mast today? 8: 2709:Ahh, just maybe it has something to do with 2306:Strongly in favour 19% Partly in favour 13% 1862:List of South African flags#Historical flags 1370:I have the same problem in Firefox and IE.-- 3159:I was just following what was done over at 1420:, whose death occurred on 15 January 2006. 1072:Does it matter that those are unofficial?-- 2478:Australian flag fullmast.jpg (current one) 835:Are the RGB values in the table also from 2192:Gallery of flags based on British ensigns 1085:We can add that to the table I suppose.-- 104:(Should find a better reference for this) 2821: 2481: 2473: 2312:Partly aganist 16% Strongly against 41% 2207:Need a better word choice than "defaced" 114:Protection of Australian Flags Bill 2003 880:The Australian Government Style Guide ( 2801: 2664: 987:Would anyone be opposed to me merging 923:and probably other offenses aswell. -- 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2721:page) without logging in. Then go to 2413:I was an eyewitness to those events. 1752:about the flag, not the flag debate. 7: 2918:his views the change was political. 2742: 2737: 2693: 2688: 1749:Australian National Flag Association 1732:) 16:23, 6 May 2006 (UTC+10 hours) 2802: 149:Other Australian Flags table: dates 24: 2493:Image:Australianflagatnewport.JPG 2157:which also had a blue background. 1858:Flag of the United States#History 882:http://nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn45358 488:They're the right ones, thanks.-- 2850:A question about the information 2746: 2730: 2697: 2681: 1985:! Let's practise a little Wiki 701:Just rework it as you see fit.-- 29: 3277: 2678:there actually is a comma there 2534:WP:MOSDATENUM (incorrect dates) 2452:Federal Flag design competition 784:The 1951 approval is mentioned 321:I think the small galleries in 3284: 2361:18:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC) 2132:16:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC) 1: 3258:13:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC) 2835:, it is left out completely. 2753:04:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC) 2704:04:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC) 2426:19:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2266:09:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC) 2247:00:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC) 1860:, and The red ensign flag at 1588:Ah, that makes sense then. -- 372:I agree we should definitely 2897:Objections to POV statements 2723:WP:MOSDATENUM (date formats) 2530:WP:MOSDATENUM (date formats) 2505:07:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC) 2406:Australian National Flag Day 2366:Worldwide design competition 2077:Flag of New Zealand Proposal 1684:10:14, 30 January 2006 (UTC) 1670:09:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC) 1650:12:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC) 1630:23:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC) 1620:02:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC) 1599:02:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC) 1578:02:15, 24 January 2006 (UTC) 1568:02:08, 24 January 2006 (UTC) 1547:11:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 1517:11:43, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 1496:15:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 1472:Standardise reference styles 1454:02:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 1439:22:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 1429:20:57, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 1401:04:40, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 1388:03:23, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 1379:03:16, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 1365:23:44, 15 January 2006 (UTC) 1341:19:22, 15 January 2006 (UTC) 1326:15:45, 15 January 2006 (UTC) 1310:14:18, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1296:13:14, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1287:13:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1273:13:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1259:13:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1247:12:57, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1237:. Do you think it's better? 1228:12:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1218:12:35, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1203:12:15, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1189:12:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1163:12:18, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1154:11:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1140:11:45, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1131:11:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1111:10:56, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1090:09:31, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1081:09:28, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1068:09:23, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1059:09:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1042:07:25, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1025:04:17, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1014:02:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1000:00:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 975:10:47, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 963:09:57, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 947:22:06, 12 January 2006 (UTC) 934:21:43, 12 January 2006 (UTC) 875:11:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC) 859:11:49, 12 January 2006 (UTC) 849:11:47, 12 January 2006 (UTC) 817:11:42, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 808:11:02, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 793:10:45, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 780:09:47, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 765:22:10, 12 January 2006 (UTC) 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11 January 2006 (UTC) 256:11:37, 11 January 2006 (UTC) 242:11:14, 11 January 2006 (UTC) 221:11:12, 11 January 2006 (UTC) 210:11:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC) 195:11:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC) 182:10:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC) 173:10:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC) 159:10:07, 11 January 2006 (UTC) 130:05:42, 11 January 2006 (UTC) 3230:15:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC) 3216:13:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC) 3203:12:49, 16 August 2007 (UTC) 3190:12:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC) 3168:11:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC) 3154:10:55, 16 August 2007 (UTC) 2872:) 19:12, 2 May 2007 )ACST). 2486:Australianflagatnewport.JPG 2391:10:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC) 1655:Congrats on featured status 3320: 3269:Image:Ausflag identity.gif 3174:Flag of the United Kingdom 3161:Flag of the United Kingdom 2845:09:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC) 2786:03:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC) 2776:16:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC) 2444:arrayed on a white cross! 2144:01:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC) 903:02:02, 15 April 2007 (UTC) 3304:02:40, 5 March 2008 (UTC) 3289:13:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC) 2570:readers’ date preferences 1481:Linkfix bot to dab links. 913:14:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC) 3059:02:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC) 3047:Your on your own wayne. 3030:07:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC) 3005:13:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC) 2892:07:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2517:Date format in Knowledge 2336:01:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC) 2295:20:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC) 2227:15:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 2217:14:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 2182:10:11, 11 May 2006 (UTC) 2106:01:40, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 2072:00:47, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 2037:09:03, 11 May 2006 (UTC) 1994:08:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC) 1953:03:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC) 1923:03:46, 11 May 2006 (UTC) 1894:03:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC) 1869:03:13, 11 May 2006 (UTC) 1840:03:03, 11 May 2006 (UTC) 1818:02:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC) 1800:16:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 1704:11:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 1694:02:17, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 1533:13:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC) 993:List of Australian flags 144:02:13, 11 May 2006 (UTC) 3127:10:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC) 3105:03:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC) 3091:15:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 2923:01:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 2882:01:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 2758:Here's another link to 2199:22:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC) 2114:7:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 1790:02:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 1780:01:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 1762:18:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 1743:11:50, 6 May 2006 (UTC) 1445:Things to do before FAC 3273:Australian flag debate 2670: 2487: 2479: 2254:Talk:Defacement (flag) 2095:Australian flag debate 1887:at some stage or other 471:User:Martyman/Sandbox3 18:Talk:Flag of Australia 2860:comment was added by 2565: 2485: 2477: 1720:comment was added by 1462:Should info added to 435:Official flag gallery 325:are very effective.-- 42:of past discussions. 3209:Flag of Saudi Arabia 2715:personal preferences 2711:personal preferences 2603:Day, month, and year 2309:Total in favour 32% 602:individual colonies. 3294:Sounds reasonable. 2833:flag of New Zealand 2099:Flag of New Zealand 2065:Flag of New Zealand 2059:Flag of New Zealand 1770:"Growing Up" Poster 1005:I'd support that.-- 110:lots of useful info 2488: 2480: 2315:Total against 57% 837:Australian Symbols 135:Construction sheet 3263:Fair use question 3244:Review of reviews 3172:Both here and at 2873: 2828: 2793:Five-pointed star 2249: 2237:comment added by 2130: 1983:assume good faith 1733: 1668: 1618: 1597: 1566: 1552:Commonwealth Star 1363: 932: 482: 128: 85:Useful References 82: 81: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3311: 3286: 3281: 2855: 2827: 2820: 2806: 2805: 2804: 2766:Flags in Schools 2751: 2750: 2744: 2739: 2734: 2702: 2701: 2695: 2690: 2685: 2665:direct quotation 2631: 2630:← NO COMMA USED! 2348:A minor question 2318:Uncommitted 11% 2252:See my reply at 2232: 2120: 1918:be pointed out. 1715: 1664: 1614: 1593: 1562: 1359: 1235:User:JPD/Sandbox 1034: 1018:Sounds splendid 928: 478: 124: 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3319: 3318: 3314: 3313: 3312: 3310: 3309: 3308: 3265: 3255:124.184.175.153 3246: 3178:Flag of Germany 3141: 3071:Flag and Nation 2899: 2856:—The preceding 2852: 2817: 2800: 2796: 2768: 2735: 2686: 2629: 2519: 2469: 2454: 2434: 2408: 2368: 2350: 2278: 2209: 2152: 2128: 2079: 2061: 2030:User:Petaholmes 1772: 1716:—The preceding 1712: 1657: 1554: 1540: 1504: 1447: 1413: 1177: 1104: 1032: 985: 920: 887:White = #FFFFFF 833: 588: 553: 505: 437: 151: 137: 87: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3317: 3315: 3307: 3306: 3264: 3261: 3245: 3242: 3241: 3240: 3239: 3238: 3237: 3236: 3235: 3234: 3233: 3232: 3140: 3137: 3136: 3135: 3134: 3133: 3132: 3131: 3130: 3129: 3094: 3093: 3078: 3074: 3066: 3039: 3038: 3037: 3036: 3035: 3034: 3033: 3032: 3010: 3009: 3008: 3007: 2991: 2990: 2989: 2988: 2982: 2981: 2980: 2979: 2972: 2971: 2970: 2969: 2959: 2958: 2957: 2956: 2949: 2948: 2947: 2946: 2937: 2936: 2935: 2934: 2898: 2895: 2889:211.30.137.103 2885: 2884: 2862:211.30.132.126 2851: 2848: 2815: 2795: 2790: 2789: 2788: 2767: 2764: 2756: 2755: 2707: 2706: 2656: 2655: 2654: 2653: 2645: 2633: 2617: 2599: 2598: 2597: 2596: 2588: 2545: 2544: 2543: 2537: 2526: 2518: 2515: 2502:202.89.158.214 2490: 2468: 2465: 2453: 2450: 2433: 2430: 2429: 2428: 2419: 2418: 2407: 2404: 2394: 2393: 2367: 2364: 2349: 2346: 2339: 2338: 2327: 2277: 2274: 2273: 2272: 2271: 2270: 2269: 2268: 2208: 2205: 2204: 2203: 2202: 2201: 2185: 2184: 2151: 2148: 2147: 2146: 2135: 2134: 2124: 2116: 2115: 2108: 2078: 2075: 2060: 2057: 2056: 2055: 2054: 2053: 2052: 2051: 2050: 2049: 2048: 2047: 2046: 2045: 2044: 2043: 2042: 2041: 2040: 2039: 2009: 2008: 2007: 2006: 2005: 2004: 2003: 2002: 2001: 2000: 1999: 1998: 1997: 1996: 1966: 1965: 1964: 1963: 1962: 1961: 1960: 1959: 1958: 1957: 1956: 1955: 1934: 1933: 1932: 1931: 1930: 1929: 1928: 1927: 1926: 1925: 1903: 1902: 1901: 1900: 1899: 1898: 1897: 1896: 1876: 1875: 1874: 1873: 1872: 1871: 1849: 1848: 1847: 1846: 1845: 1844: 1843: 1842: 1825: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1821: 1820: 1805: 1804: 1803: 1802: 1771: 1768: 1767: 1766: 1765: 1764: 1711: 1708: 1707: 1706: 1687: 1686: 1656: 1653: 1633: 1632: 1606: 1605: 1604: 1603: 1602: 1601: 1581: 1580: 1553: 1550: 1539: 1536: 1503: 1502:Debate section 1500: 1499: 1498: 1483: 1482: 1479: 1476: 1473: 1470: 1467: 1460: 1446: 1443: 1442: 1441: 1412: 1409: 1408: 1407: 1406: 1405: 1404: 1403: 1352: 1351: 1350: 1349: 1348: 1347: 1346: 1345: 1344: 1343: 1317:last option.-- 1314: 1313: 1312: 1261: 1233:I tried it at 1231: 1230: 1206: 1205: 1176: 1173: 1172: 1171: 1170: 1169: 1168: 1167: 1166: 1165: 1119:Flag of Mexico 1103: 1102:Centenary Flag 1100: 1099: 1098: 1097: 1096: 1095: 1094: 1093: 1092: 1048: 1047: 1046: 1045: 1044: 984: 981: 980: 979: 978: 977: 950: 949: 919: 916: 906: 905: 896: 895: 894: 891: 890:Blue = #00008B 888: 862: 861: 832: 829: 828: 827: 826: 825: 824: 823: 822: 821: 820: 819: 757: 756: 755: 740: 709: 708: 683: 682: 681: 680: 679: 678: 629: 628: 627: 603: 587: 584: 583: 582: 552: 549: 548: 547: 546: 545: 504: 501: 500: 499: 498: 497: 496: 495: 464: 463: 436: 433: 418: 417: 401: 400: 390: 389: 335: 334: 333: 332: 323:Flag of Mexico 276: 275: 259: 258: 247: 246: 245: 244: 224: 223: 213: 212: 198: 197: 187: 186: 185: 184: 150: 147: 136: 133: 117: 116: 111: 105: 99: 97:NAA Fact Sheet 94: 91:Flags act 1953 86: 83: 80: 79: 74: 69: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3316: 3305: 3301: 3297: 3293: 3292: 3291: 3290: 3287: 3282: 3280: 3274: 3270: 3262: 3260: 3259: 3256: 3252: 3249: 3243: 3231: 3227: 3223: 3219: 3218: 3217: 3214: 3210: 3206: 3205: 3204: 3201: 3197: 3193: 3192: 3191: 3187: 3183: 3179: 3175: 3171: 3170: 3169: 3166: 3162: 3158: 3157: 3156: 3155: 3151: 3147: 3138: 3128: 3124: 3120: 3116: 3112: 3111: 3108: 3107: 3106: 3103: 3098: 3097: 3096: 3095: 3092: 3088: 3084: 3079: 3075: 3072: 3067: 3063: 3062: 3061: 3060: 3056: 3052: 3051:134.148.5.119 3048: 3045: 3042: 3031: 3027: 3023: 3018: 3017: 3016: 3015: 3014: 3013: 3012: 3011: 3006: 3002: 2998: 2997:134.148.5.119 2995: 2994: 2993: 2992: 2986: 2985: 2984: 2983: 2976: 2975: 2974: 2973: 2967: 2963: 2962: 2961: 2960: 2953: 2952: 2951: 2950: 2945: 2941: 2940: 2939: 2938: 2933: 2929: 2928: 2927: 2926: 2925: 2924: 2921: 2915: 2914: 2910: 2907: 2906: 2902: 2896: 2894: 2893: 2890: 2887:Thanks a lot! 2883: 2880: 2876: 2875: 2874: 2871: 2867: 2863: 2859: 2849: 2847: 2846: 2842: 2838: 2834: 2829: 2826: 2825: 2818: 2813: 2812: 2808: 2794: 2791: 2787: 2784: 2780: 2779: 2778: 2777: 2774: 2765: 2763: 2761: 2760:WP:MOSDATENUM 2754: 2749: 2745: 2740: 2733: 2728: 2727: 2726: 2724: 2720: 2716: 2712: 2705: 2700: 2696: 2691: 2684: 2679: 2675: 2674: 2673: 2669: 2668: 2666: 2662: 2652: 2651: 2646: 2644: 2643: 2639: 2634: 2632: 2627: 2626: 2623: 2618: 2616: 2615: 2611: 2606: 2605: 2604: 2601: 2600: 2595: 2594: 2589: 2587: 2586: 2581: 2580: 2579: 2578:Month and day 2576: 2575: 2574: 2573: 2571: 2564: 2560: 2559: 2554: 2550: 2542:To the anon. 2541: 2540: 2539: 2535: 2531: 2524: 2516: 2514: 2513: 2508: 2506: 2503: 2499: 2496: 2494: 2491:The image is 2484: 2476: 2472: 2466: 2464: 2461: 2458: 2451: 2449: 2445: 2441: 2437: 2431: 2427: 2424: 2421: 2420: 2416: 2415: 2414: 2411: 2405: 2403: 2400: 2397: 2392: 2388: 2384: 2379: 2378: 2377: 2374: 2371: 2365: 2363: 2362: 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1373: 1369: 1368: 1367: 1366: 1362: 1357: 1342: 1338: 1334: 1329: 1328: 1327: 1324: 1320: 1315: 1311: 1307: 1303: 1299: 1298: 1297: 1294: 1290: 1289: 1288: 1284: 1280: 1276: 1275: 1274: 1271: 1267: 1262: 1260: 1257: 1253: 1252: 1251: 1250: 1249: 1248: 1244: 1240: 1236: 1229: 1226: 1222: 1221: 1220: 1219: 1215: 1211: 1204: 1201: 1197: 1193: 1192: 1191: 1190: 1186: 1182: 1174: 1164: 1161: 1157: 1156: 1155: 1151: 1147: 1143: 1142: 1141: 1138: 1134: 1133: 1132: 1128: 1124: 1120: 1115: 1114: 1113: 1112: 1109: 1101: 1091: 1088: 1084: 1083: 1082: 1079: 1075: 1071: 1070: 1069: 1066: 1062: 1061: 1060: 1057: 1053: 1049: 1043: 1040: 1039: 1035: 1033:Nightstallion 1029: 1028: 1027: 1026: 1023: 1017: 1016: 1015: 1012: 1008: 1004: 1003: 1002: 1001: 998: 994: 990: 982: 976: 973: 969: 968: 967: 966: 965: 964: 960: 956: 948: 945: 941: 938: 937: 936: 935: 931: 926: 917: 915: 914: 911: 904: 901: 897: 893:Red = #FF0000 892: 889: 886: 885: 883: 879: 878: 877: 876: 872: 868: 860: 857: 853: 852: 851: 850: 846: 842: 838: 830: 818: 815: 812:No problem.-- 811: 810: 809: 805: 801: 796: 795: 794: 791: 787: 783: 782: 781: 777: 773: 768: 767: 766: 763: 758: 754: 750: 746: 741: 737: 736: 735: 732: 728: 727: 726: 725: 721: 717: 713: 707: 704: 700: 699: 698: 697: 693: 689: 677: 673: 669: 664: 663: 662: 659: 655: 651: 650: 649: 645: 641: 637: 634: 630: 626: 623: 618: 617: 616: 612: 608: 604: 600: 599: 598: 597: 594: 591:federation.-- 585: 581: 577: 573: 568: 567: 566: 565: 562: 558: 551:Table or text 550: 544: 540: 536: 531: 530: 529: 526: 522: 521: 520: 519: 515: 511: 502: 494: 491: 487: 486: 485: 481: 476: 472: 468: 467: 466: 465: 462: 459: 454: 453: 452: 451: 447: 443: 434: 432: 431: 427: 423: 416: 412: 408: 403: 402: 399: 396: 392: 391: 388: 384: 380: 375: 371: 370: 369: 368: 365: 359: 358: 354: 350: 345: 340: 331: 328: 324: 320: 319: 318: 315: 311: 307: 306: 305: 304: 301: 295: 294: 290: 286: 281: 274: 270: 266: 261: 260: 257: 254: 249: 248: 243: 239: 235: 231: 228: 227: 226: 225: 222: 219: 215: 214: 211: 208: 204: 200: 199: 196: 193: 189: 188: 183: 180: 176: 175: 174: 171: 167: 163: 162: 161: 160: 157: 148: 146: 145: 142: 134: 132: 131: 127: 122: 115: 112: 109: 106: 103: 100: 98: 95: 92: 89: 88: 84: 78: 75: 73: 70: 67: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 3278: 3266: 3253: 3250: 3247: 3142: 3113: 3070: 3049: 3046: 3043: 3040: 2916: 2912: 2911: 2908: 2904: 2903: 2900: 2886: 2853: 2823: 2822: 2810: 2797: 2769: 2757: 2714: 2710: 2708: 2677: 2671: 2658: 2657: 2647: 2635: 2628: 2619: 2607: 2602: 2590: 2582: 2577: 2567: 2566: 2561: 2552: 2548: 2546: 2520: 2509: 2500: 2497: 2495:(3072×2304) 2489: 2470: 2462: 2459: 2455: 2446: 2442: 2438: 2435: 2412: 2409: 2401: 2398: 2395: 2375: 2372: 2369: 2353: 2351: 2341:Here it is: 2340: 2326: 2323: 2320: 2317: 2314: 2311: 2308: 2305: 2302: 2298: 2288: 2283: 2282: 2279: 2210: 2155: 2153: 2080: 2062: 1915: 1886: 1773: 1722:203.51.1.19 1713: 1691:Paddington62 1688: 1658: 1636: 1634: 1607: 1555: 1541: 1523: 1520: 1505: 1448: 1426:A Y Arktos 1422: 1414: 1353: 1232: 1207: 1178: 1158:I suppose.-- 1105: 1037: 1019: 986: 951: 921: 918:Flag Burning 907: 863: 836: 834: 710: 684: 635: 632: 589: 557:this version 554: 506: 438: 419: 373: 360: 343: 338: 336: 296: 279: 277: 192:A Y Arktos 156:A Y Arktos 152: 138: 118: 65: 43: 37: 2622:17 February 2610:February 17 2593:17 February 2585:February 17 2432:Eureka flag 2233:—Preceding 2196:Ian Fieggen 2162:Blue Ensign 2150:Blue ensign 2028:Meanwhile, 1022:Big Adamsky 900:Ian Fieggen 36:This is an 2964:See here: 2942:And here: 2661:piped link 2650:1958-02-17 2276:"Suitable" 2239:84.9.33.84 2034:Chelseaboy 1991:Chelseaboy 1797:Chelseaboy 1739:A Y Arktos 1264:gallery.-- 339:other than 93:as amended 3279:52 Pickup 3213:52 Pickup 3165:52 Pickup 2719:WP:MOSNUM 2467:New Photo 1538:Copyright 1478:Red links 1464:half-mast 760:ensign.-- 77:Archive 4 72:Archive 3 66:Archive 2 60:Archive 1 2870:contribs 2858:unsigned 2235:unsigned 2112:iThink4u 2083:iThink4u 1987:civility 1950:Centauri 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