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was eventually topic banned from Welsh articles (because there were also POV issues. In this case an attempt to remove the
English kings from the story). There is still cleanup to do. This is a textbook example of why editors should not start editing a history article based on something they read on a BBC/newspaper page. Any mention of Cadwaladr should be under the Henry VII usage, showing how, after his usage of the dragon, it became associated with Cadwaladr. This may be done per the Cadwaladr page.
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the current design. Christian Fogd
Pedersen's International Flag Book in Colour (published 1971 for English language version, original Danish publication in 1970) illustrates a slightly different version of the dragon which it states is the correct version, and which appears to be virtually identical (except for having the normal background of white over green stripes) to the form of dragon shown (albeit on a green mound rather than stripe) in this link
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association was made by Nisbet. Either way, at this point, we don't have a source to follow. It is well established that the association with
Cadwaladr followed Henry VII coming to power, and we don't have to specify the exact date it occurred (but given sources we would). As for the piece about Edward IV on the Cadwaladr page, that is indeed in the source, which has, inter alia,
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The current exact version of the flag may be more recent than 1959. Issue 088 (Winter 1997) of the Flag
Institute's journal, Flagmaster, refers to the 'design of the dragon approved in 1970'. Issue 142 (from 2012) of the same publication states that the 'pattern was defined in 1973'. Both referencing
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Yes, I mean the flag which both you and I linked to. It is quite obviously the Welsh flag, as is the second one you link to. What is your point? The second image is the Welsh flag. Assuming you (for some reason) think the dragon in the second link is a bit different (to whatever you have unilaterally
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We probably shouldn't refer to it as the "Red Dragon of
Cadwaladr" ourselves, but that name should be mentioned somewhere in the text given it's an alternative name by now (just because it's historically inaccurate doesn't mean it isn't an alternative name), or at the very least something mentioning
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to claim the dragon as a design element of the
Maltese flag. OK, theoretically there's an image of Pistrucci's St George slaying the dragon in the middle of the George Cross, but in practice nobody would ever be able to see it if they were looking at the Maltese flag flying on a flagpole. I'm going
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And it is not just Edward (and the people behind him) who were making such claims. Henry VII also made claims to cast himself as the prince of Wales and ruler of prophecy. The link to
Cadwaladr was certainly being made at this point. What was not being said was that the red dragon was the flag (or
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is that these articles were edited by an editor who persistently used newspapers and the BBC as a basis for editing articles, inserting those as the sources, and then would shoehorn in other sources when challenged. This happened in many articles, some of which have now been deleted and the editor
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It could still be worth mentioning the misnomer, for the sake of acknowledging the mythos around it. Because people did/do actually refer to it as the "Red Dragon of
Cadwaladr" it was just hundreds and hundreds of year later, built on a false idea. The mural that was included for example, (which I
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Just one quote from BBC history site after quick google search, " in
Caernarfon in 1911, at the investiture of Edward, Prince of Wales, the flag appeared in its current form" . This takes it back well before 1959, and it may well have been used by Welsh people rather than the British establishment
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Hi
Lifeschool, just to note, we usually sign our comments at the end. Just add four tildes (~~~~). Also to note that Knowledge is not a source for Knowledge, so when adding information, include the references on this page. Bear in mind that referenced information on another page could be removed.
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Whilst editing, my reason for doing so was cut short. Simply because the Welsh Flag was "accepted" by the British Heraldic establishment in 1959 does not mean it was not used by the people of Wales before that. (It quite obviously was, as any discussion with any Welsh person born before 1959 will
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Is there any reason for any of this "opposition" section to exist? A new political party surfaces and announces the dragon is satanic; fails to be elected; disappears off Google. What is encyclopedic about this? I can't find the party website, only stories in the press from around the time of the
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The section on exclusion is over-written: Wales is not represented in the Union flag because it was considered part of England; oh and a bit of trivia that the Daily Telegraph had a fun competition to add Wales in. No one of great noteworthiness proposed the image shown, the shown image does not
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I just removed citations 5 and 6 as well as it can easily be verified that those citations do not mention or support the claim whatsoever, however I am new to Knowledge editing and believe I made a mistake in my formatting of the citation needed which could possibly be fixed by someone who is
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So, just to establish in a better way than I did above the point I am making! The Welsh flag consisting of a red dragon on a white and green background was used by the Welsh people as the Welsh flag long before 1959. Ok, "how long before?" I have no idea! But the deleted text said that it was
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claimed to be restoring the authentic ancient lineage of Cadwaladr, thus fulfilling Merlin's prophecy of the victory of the red dragon. His chancellor gave a sermon asserting that 'the British line, which perished with Cadwallader's exile in 689 was restored by the arrival of Edward the king
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We can't mention Nisbet at this stage because that claim is only in the YouTube video, which is a self published source. Should the video maker publish their research, we would have a source to follow, but it is likely any claim would merely say this is the first known source, not that the
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I am waiting to hear why the Cross of St George is not the official flag of Wales seeing as it represents Wales on the country's sovereign flag, the Union Flag. I am sure there is a valid reason why the official Welsh flag is not the English flag but this article does not deal with it at
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Actually, on rereading, that last sentence of mine is unfair. You are obviously not saying you cannot see it, just that you can not be sure that the dragon is exactly the same form as- well, whatever. I apologise for the last sentence, but refer you to the first paragraph of my answer.
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establishment before then. If it were up to someone to prove it was used before 1959 I would look for (much) better references than the BBC, but as I say, it is up to someone who wishes the deleted section to stand to prove that the deleted reference is incorrect/anachronistic.
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Yes there is, and it deserves to be mentioned in this article. However it is a bit obscure, and so I am quite happy with Arwel's change. I'm not sure why you say that size is not an issue - remember that this is an article about the Welsh flag, not about flags with dragons on.
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Neville was the political brains. His sermons allude to the prophecies of Merlin and the angel to Cadwallader, claiming that the British line, which perished with Cadwallader’s exile in 689, was restored with the arrival of Edward the king prophesied by Merlin and
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Therefore, I believe the text I deleted should stay deleted unless someone can link to evidence as to why the use of some form of a red dragon on a white and green background as a Welsh flag by a group of Welsh people would be anachronistic in 1890.
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In fact, I may have fallen foul of not assuming "good faith", if that is the term? I apologise further for the tone of my answering text! But if you could read the facts in it rather than the rather confrontational tone, I would be obliged.
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In fairness, it seems like this was already a very long-standing historical myth, a very long game of telephone mentioned over at least a few hundred years. It's less an indictment of Knowledge, and more the muddling of sources over time. -
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How come that is not the national flag? I think it is a political statement that England's Saint George the Dragonslayer rules over Wales's Dragon. Besides, isn't the dragon a pagan symbol and aren't most Welsh people deeply Christian?
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decided a Welsh dragon should look like), the dragon appears in many different forms on the flag, there is no official version of it. It appears in many different forms on Welsh flags. The one you link to is not particularly unusual.
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The Red Dragon is likely to be Celtic in Origin, and I feel that it symbolizes the fact that Wales is still a part celtic country. Although many religious groups have wanted to change the flag it has been upholded by traditional
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No worries! Your edit summary is fine in explaining the removals. For adding the tag you would add a standalone template that would look like the following "{{Template:Citation needed}}" it would not be place inside <ref:
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which was a copy/paste from other pages where this was being tried. Llywelyn (2017) has been discussed before. It is a masters thesis in creative writing (written in Welsh) that follows Turvey quite closely. It is not a
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the prophecies connected to Cadwaladr were used by various contenders as part of their claim to the throne. This was linked to the story of the struggle between the Red Dragon and the White Dragon, part of the myth of
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in my opinion. Not only is it a masters thesis, not a Ph.D., it is not in history, and there is a lack of critical analysis of the sources. This information should never have been added. I'll excise it.
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The use of the flag by Cadwaladr is potentially a (long standing) myth based on the available sources born out of a historical misunderstanding. While not a a reputable source on it's own, there's a
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https://web.archive.org/web/20100405072446/http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/article-23543895-katherine-jenkins-threatens-to-spill-out-of-dress-on-stage-as-boyfriend-gethin-jones-looks-on.do
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Thirdly, bear in mind that the lead section summarises main text so be careful not to add anything in the lead that is not covered in the body of the article. Happy editing.
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show.) However, that is immaterial, as the onus of proof is on someone to prove that the use of the Welsh flag at the election of Lloyd George was wrong or anachronistic.
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This does not mean if a Welsh flag was used in 1890, it would not have had a dragon resembling the ones today in all such points. (Not that there are many such points!)
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page uses this reference for the claim: Dobin, Howard, Merlin's Disciples: Prophecy, Poetry, and Power in Renaissance England, Stanford University Press, 1990, p.51.
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And the 1959 date seems to be a bit of an irrelevance in the way the people of Wales use the flag, (but that is a debate for a different issue concerning the flag!)
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represent any great significance. May as well try to find a still from The Simpsons with a Welsh flag in the background, that would have just as much significance.
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A photo of the Welsh Flag ("in its current form") being flown at the International Six Day Trials (motorcycle event) at Llandrindod Wells in 1938 on this site-
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I agree that we should mention the misunderstanding, but we shouldn’t refer to it as the “Red Dragon of Calawaladr” because it had no association with him.
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page based on suitable historical sources. That states that the dragon became associated with Cadwaladr after Henry VII began to use it. See the section
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http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/article-23543895-katherine-jenkins-threatens-to-spill-out-of-dress-on-stage-as-boyfriend-gethin-jones-looks-on.do
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There is currently a petition going to the Senedd about whether the flag should have a penis which has attracted some national news attention (
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I posted on the YouTube video, mentioning your actions. The host (Dr Williams is it?) was appreciative, and I thank you both on his behalf.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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arms) of Cadwaladr. That came later, but it came about because Henry VII and others were making these genealogical claims.
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I would suggest you invest in a pair of reading glasses if you cannot see the obvious Welsh flag in the 1938 photo.
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Just one piece of evidence showing that the use of the Welsh flag before 1959 is not "incorrect" or "anachronistic".
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Here is the question. Is there, or isn't there a dragon on the Maltese flag? Yes or no. Size is not an issue.
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If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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Cadwaladr should be mentioned (there are currently no mentions of Cadwaladr I can see in the article).
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before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
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In 2007, the Welsh Christian Party adopted the stance that the Red Dragon was a symbol of the devil...
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experienced. I think I was supposed to add the reason for the citation needed inside the <ref: -->
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Some evidence has come to light of the first modern use of the dragon on a flag or draped standard.
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in 1718. We should note this in the article if we can find a good secondary source to support this.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Could this reference an earlier mention of the dragon which Cambrian Chronicles didn't pick up?
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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It is a fact that Henry did this. Take a look at the Henry VII page. It gives a reference of:
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Fair point, I too think the update is fine. I hit the talk page before seeing the ammendment.
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Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080907195629/http://www.lgbtcymruhelpline.org.uk/8welshflag.htm
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Yes, and more specifically, the association with Calawaladr was made by Alexander Nisbet in
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Lost track of which article this was about. Not sure if a mention is necessary here, but on
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Could someone add this to the article, please? Would be much appreciated, thanks.
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The information is longstanding on this page but was unsourced until this edit
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popularised it's use in heraldry after falsely claimed to have descended from
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1178:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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https://web.archive.org/web/20100611213215/http://fotw.net/flags/gb-wales.html
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and his connection to the Welsh flag, but some revisions were reverted. "
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Lifeschool: I updated the page a bit today to make it clearer about Saint
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it should be (which has the same lack of Cadwaladr mentions). Apologies.
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Appreciate it! Saw your change and it does make quite a bit more sense.
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Thank you for your interest on this subject! 00:55, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
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File:Welsh Dragon Memorial Mametz Wood.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion
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This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
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Knowledge files with no non-free use rationale as of 27 October 2011
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hate to be pedantic but where's the dragon on the maltese flag?
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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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http://speedtracktales.com/index-of-isdt-events/isdt-1938-wales/
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First modern use - could someone please add this to the article
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If the word '"falsely" is an issue, then just edit that out.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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to be identical to the modern one, but clearly it isn't!--
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If the image has already been deleted you may want to try
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Speaking of which, any thoughts on this text I found at
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to the modern one. For example, in a small grainy photo
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The same could be said of the paragraph that starts:
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https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/g/gb-w-col.gif
1182:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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1598:An Essay on the Ancient and Modern Use of Armories
1050:http://www.lgbtcymruhelpline.org.uk/8welshflag.htm
475:In the absence of replies, I have been bold. Zap.
1301:https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-wales.html
1815:Thanks for addressing this. Much appreciated.
1326:whose sources seem to stand up to scrutiny. -
1255:Participate in the deletion discussion at the
1168:This message was posted before February 2018.
1058:This message was posted before February 2018.
336:Knowledge:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology
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1711:Happy to hear! Thanks for the heads up
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1648:prophesied by Merlin and others.'"
1577:The problem with this article and
1324:well researched video on the topic
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1199:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1135:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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238:Template:WikiProject Celts
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575:to de-emphasise it. --
189:is within the scope of
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1747:Mackie, John Duncan
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199:and the modern day
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1803:Sirfurboy🏄
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1689:Sirfurboy🏄
1657:Selfie City
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1584:Sirfurboy🏄
1549:Narky Blert
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749:Don't panic
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589:FruitMonkey
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528:—Preceding
1905:Categories
1889:Titus Gold
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1782:Lifeschool
1280:Daily Mail
1231:Report bug
1121:Report bug
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209:discussion
1772:Cadwaladr
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1713:LoomCreek
1666:about my
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1568:Cadwaladr
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1207:this tool
1104:this tool
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892:identical
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489:Two flags
446:beliefs--
211:. Please
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1502:Skarmory
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1220:Cheers.—
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1683:others.
1507:(talk •
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374:Tip:
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