Talk:Flood myth/Archive 1

1098:

appropriate. I don't think there's really much need to get into any great detail on that though, as I don't think I've seen anything mythology articles focusing on potential origins much at all. By doing this section, I moved the whole prehistoric deluge section out of the lead (as it has always been horribly misplaced there) and the "Genesis is true" section out of the part talking about the Noah story. So now the origin theories are covered all in one place. Also had to completely reword rest of opening too, as "best known" can be taken to be "the best myths of those that are known" and the Hindu mention seemed weird, as honestly I think that's probably one of the lesser known ones after Genesis, Greek, MidEast and etc., due to the lack of knowledge most people reading an English wikipedia would have of Hindu faith, so I hoped adding the section saying it was known because it was still believed in modern religions explained that adequately. I imagine the opening and ending are going to be a little rough and could use some reworking, but I think the basic concept of what I was doing is sound.

684:"Distorted copies of it" is a rather bold assertion considering that is not the view held by most archaeologists and scholars of Old Testemant studies, despite many of them having a Christian view point. My vote is to have the article represent the facts those archaeologists and scholars have dug up, that way this arcicle provides knowledge and thus lives up to being an encyclopedia. To present the story as historically accurate, despite the fact that such a view is propagated by think tanks rather than knowledge learned from peer review journals, is POV that attemps to dumb down the facts. I went ahead and put your edits in a seperate heading for the Genesis account as a temporary compromise. I do think that your edits need to be cleaned up though since it contains a lot of trivia. 644:

relevant today because a majority of the population (as compared to the population who went to college or studied the issues) thinks it's better than evolution. The biggest problem with an encyclopedia like this is having people off the streets who don't know anything about the topic "correcting" experts who do, and what you are suggesting is institutionalizing that process to make it policy. Half the US thinks WMDs were found in Iraq, that doesn't mean an encyclopedia should say it's true. I can take a stab at edits myself if necessary to get the geesis flood mentioned more in it's mythological context, though a link to some arrticle on biblical literalism might be all that's necessary for the idea that some people think the others are distortions.

800:

about the context that Genesis was portrayed in are understandable. The reason it was here in the form you saw it was because the section on near easern flood myths was originally from the Epic of Gilgamesh page discussing the differences between Gilgamesh flood and the biblical flood, which I felt was inappropriate and moved to this page. Before that, this page never had a heading that solely delt with the biblical flood. So I understand somewhat your view that the Genesis account was not mentioned here, though I don't agree with you that that was true. So maybe Genesis with more description is okay (though I still think a lot of the info was trivia), but I dont want the integrity of the section moved from the Gilgamesh page damaged.

1463:

asking for one concrete fact to support your belief. the majority of scholars don't believe in God (55% from one poll). does that mean we should base every article on the pov that there is no god? no. npov doesn't mean we take a majority vote among people that managed to jump through the right hoops. npov is religiously neutral. so the "opinion" of a bunch of scholars is irrelevent unless it is backed with fact. now give me a concrete FACT to support this order, or it's inappropriate, and we need to order it a different way. any way. i don't care. but this order takes a minority pov by default, thereby takes an ANTIreligious viewpoint, and is inappropriate.

2465:

inspiration and inerrancy. all divinely inspired people make mistakes -- what's funny is, the bible RECORDS those mistakes. how many myths record the adultery and murder committed by their hero? or the sin moses committed that kept him out of the promised land. the bible does NOT fit the myth-mold, by any stretch of the imagination. that's why a lot of people still believe it is historical, even though not inerrant. inerrancy was a reaction 19th century reaction of terror on the part of the church on losing its position of unchallenged supremacy. historicity is another question entirely. stop being so arrogant.

2200:. Yet I have no problem with a classification of the Iliad as myth. A composition of Exodus about 500 years after "the Exodus" would be comparable to the situation of the Iliad, and I do believe that it is possible that Exodus contains much that is historical. Genesis, afaik, was written later than Exodus, sort of as a preface, and it would be more difficult to make a case for historicity, but it is of course not impossible. I am not aware that I have an agenda. I think it should be easy to present you with scholarly opinions that Exodus is older than Genesis, let me do a websearch. The 440 BC date I pulled from the 327:

NPOV because it indicates that there is controversy and it also indicates the recent collaborative evidence found by Ballard. Technically, if the story was not "written down" it was not "history", hence prehistoric. However, the approximate 5600 BCE date is much closer to history than what is usually thought of when the word "prehistoric" is uttered (which makes one think of millions of years). It could be said to be borderline prehistoric. But the point remains, that civilized human settlements were very likely displaced by a flood at this time and that directly gave rise to the Deluge myths.

1805:

millennium BC, composed probably around 700 BC, but oral tradition may well go a couple of centuries further back. Hardly coeval with the earliest version of the Gilgamesh epos, ca. 1000 years older, isn't it? Of course you may believe that Genesis was divinely inspired, with my blessings. You can even believe this about Book of Mormon, about the Gettysburg address, or about the Lord of the Rings. It would seem a good idea, however, to sort the Near Eastern versions by date of composition, or attestation, rather than by "amount of divine inspiration" present in the text.

3372:

putting something in there saying that God created Adam and that Genesis reports on it as if it were a newspaper article instead of a book of religious stories, or making the argument that the Genesis flood is substantially different from other accounts (with details of ship building, etc.) when it isn't. It's clear that your idea of balancing viewpoints is nowhere near anyone else's, so our best bet is to keep all them to an absolute minimum. I don't think we can remove them completely, however, as some mention/link to prehistoric floods, etc., needs to remain.

1822:

solid factual EVIDENCE for those dates, beyond the sheer conjecture based on the presumptions of a few "scientists" who, as a whole, despise religion, which doesn't speak well for their objectivity, either. i don't want conclusions, proof by authority, or proof by assertion. i want evidence. do you have any? if not, then we need to either mention to two points of view (one that genesis is based on ancient historical records which were collected, recorded in Genesis, and subsequently lost) or choose another criteria for ordering the stories.

2938:" I'm okay with chronological order based off the majority of archaeological research and scholarship. That is what gives it credibility, rather than the "majority" of people outside acedemic circles who either just don't pay attention to scholarship or, like you, they are offended by it. Most people think that Columbus's opponenets believed the world was flat, even though scholars of medieval history have shot that view down. Facts about Columbus should reflect the majority of scholarship, not the public who doesn't believe it. 3276:

and purification. I don't get the objection to the second paragraoh, since it pretty much summarizes what's in the Bible itself, without adding any pov, except for the last bit "thought to be a conscious refutation" which is interesting, but should be better explained (I'm not sure I get the point), and attributed (who proposed this?). But honestly, I read this paragraph as tending towards a "Genesis is true" statement (God did this. God did that.) and not 'secular' at all, except for the Atrahasis reference.

3210:"The ancient Israelites believed that sins commited had physical consequence on the land on which they lived, so physical solutions had to be made. For example, the land became polluted when murder was commited (spilling someone's blood and thus staining and cursing the ground). Several generations since mankind left Eden, the land became filled with such pollution. God then brought on the great flood not as a punishment for human wickedness but to wash away the pollution caused by evil deeds. 768:

relevant today edits earlier. Any change to this article should NOT yank most of the myths out of a mythology article, OK? We might add a little more about the Genesis myth somewhere (NOT at the beginning, as that's biased toward literalists) and maybe mention that some religions hold it to be true (which of course isn't a huge shocker, as the ancient Sumerians believed their flood stories to be true too), but we aren;t yanking most of the myths out of a mythology article, no way no how.

820:

Regarding the compromise, it doesn't seem too bad right now, but I think starting with Genesis, then saying in the Mesopotamian section that scholars think Genesis is a legend based upon earlier myths, and then going back to Genesis again later isn't organized very well. The very important point about scholars not believing Genesis was first seems both hidden away in its current location and betrayed by the fact that Genesis is listed first. Literalist religionists have articles on

507:

It has been discarded by them (See the Answers in Genesis site), but in any case, would be covered by linking to the biblical flood page or creationist page without going into any more detail than other issues. In other words, the referrent is the biblical flood story, not the water vapor canopy, which is a detail in the discussion of that story best left to the more detailed biblical flood pages or the creationist versus evolutionist debate pages.

3196:

the research was published in an archaeology paper 27 years ago (the paper being world renowned for its excelent scholarship) and is teached by Old Testament professors in universities today shows that there is no controversy within biblical archaeology about the knowledge presented. If the think tanks were successful in shooting down the work of Professor Tikva Frymer-Kensky, her research would not continue to hold weight in universities today.

31: 2689:". You really ought to read the source for the commentary I have already mentioned to you twice before (located at the end of the artilce). If you go there, you will see that the source is an article that appeared in Biblical Archaeologist, written by a professor of near eastern studies at Wayne State University, Detroit, and reposted on the website of Azusa Pacific University (a university that also sponsors a Christian peer review journal 3010:

complaining that we have not more background on the American myths? By all means, research it and add it. There are serious problems with these sections still, anyway (including copyvio). And as for "mainstream biblical scholarship" being a minority view, I am sorry, but that doesn't make an ounce of sense. By being mainstream, it is necessarily the majority view. Mainstream is just another word for majority here. Otherwise it would be a

2139:

alleged popularity and your personal beliefs about what the real chronology was. What the scholars in the field agree the order is is what the order should be. If you want to go start your own site and call it WikireligiousTracts, by all means go do so, but leave the encyclopidea to people writing information about what the experts in each particular field say and not what you and some opinion poll claims people think.

1891:— What can I say; if you are surprised yourself about your choice of what to believe, how could we humble outsiders fathom your reasons. It's not like there are any actual clues to favour the text (detail? If I give you a text with even more detail, will you believe that??). You are free to believe whatever you like, no matter how unreasonable, but you seem to admit yourself that such belief is an arbitrary choice. 464:— possible, but circumstantial. By its title, that article's scope would also include catastrophic floods of such antiquity that they can be ruled out as origins of the myth. I think it's a good solution to have a separate article on the Black Sea one, which has been the 'hottest' candidate for the Sumerian myth lately. Information about this in the other articles can now of course be removed or compacted. 1433:

around is extremely POV. Several editors have agreed to list the myths chronologically. Going against their decisions shows that you only are interested in imposing your religious beliefs onto the article. Please do not make such changes again. ANd no, I don't think we want to 'single out' Genesis either. We rather want to integrate it with the other Near Eastern myths, of which it is obviously a variant.

1294:

you will still be secular (not "-ized"), because science is secular in its essence. Sure, the myth is historical. It's a historical myth. Genesis is historical: it's a historical text. It may even be harking back to some historical deluge. But there would be no reason to prefer it to any other account unless you believe it is inerrant for some reason. But again, you can discuss this on

2101:. I.e. 2000 BC for the (fragmentary) sumerian text, 1700 BC for the Babylonian version, ca. 700 BC for extant copies of the Akkadian translation of the Sumerian text. Maybe ca. 700 BC for the composition of the Hebrew (Genesis) text, ca. 440 BC for the redaction of Genesis into its present form, and ca. 1000 AD for the oldest extant manuscript of Genesis (afaik). 2574:"i am unaware of a single person who believes that the bible is true and is beyond the dispute of science. that is a straw man." That's not a straw man, the belief is the official and publicized stance of several conservative churches. Regardless of their religious beliefs or yours, this article should be about scholarly knowledge, not wishful thinking. 2677:"For example, the land became polluted when murder was commited (spilling someone's blood and thus staining and cursing the ground). Several generations since mankind left Eden, the land became filled with such pollution. God then brought on the great flood not as a punishment for human wickedness but to wash away the pollution caused by evil deeds." 1449:

encyclopedia about what the majority ofpeople off the street think about quantum physics instead of the actual physicists, etc. That means the order for the Mid East myths should be as it was before you stuck your head into this article. Please leave your religious agenda behind before you make any changes to articles on this site, as it violates

3359:

about mythology. That's not an encyclopedia article, that's a religious tract. The way this article was organized was to present a short sentence or two about each of the commentaries, with links to another article (Ryan-Pittman flood artcle, etc.) as appropriate. Your side was presented, as there was additional information on your views on the

1683:

is confirmed by a variety of OTHER records they have. 45% of the american population believes in the gensis creation and the history that follows. 80% think it should be taught in schools. the view that it is a myth is limited to a tiny minority of people outside of china and india. it is still a SUBSTANTIAL point of view in the world.

986:. We should list the myths, chronologically, and let the facts speak for themselves as to whether or not they are related. A myth is a myth, regardless of how it originated, and regardless of what percentage of USians have heard of it. This page should not deal with the (ridiculous) claim of the "historicity of Genesis" at all. 3050:

presented as fact, without another point of view. if you want that point of view in there -- that genesis is a FALSE myth ... then you need to have a point of view in there that it is a TRUE myth. if you don't want EITHER in there, then we're fine. but as it stands, there is only BIASED commentary against ONE account.

1493:

left Eden, the land became filled with such pollution. God then brought on the great flood not as a punishment for human wickedness but to wash away the pollution caused by evil deeds. God spared Noah and his family (instructing him to build a survival vessel) so mankind and the earth could begin a clean slate.

578:

out of the way since it provides the least amount of information. The so called "deconstructionist interpretation" (whatever that means) is not uncited, a link is provided at the end of this article. The link goes to a university and the article posted there originally appeared in Biblical Archeologist.

3275:

I agree that the first paragraph cited above ("the ancient Israelites believed...") is not really relevant here, and furthermore misleading, because pretty much everybody had such beliefs at the time. Also, 'not really a punishment' is bad, because there was probably no distinction between punishment

3255:

your accusations of religious bias are absolutely ridiculous. the arab world teaches this is SECULAR HISTORY. this is not a question of religion. if so, which religion? this is not even a question of the bible. the muslims think the bible is corrupted. this is a question of interpretation of an

3221:

but let's be clear -- i don't object to the ideas themselves -- i only object to their being presented as fact without opposing viewpoints being presented. if that text was removed, and the story simply left to stand for itself (as all the other stories are) there wouldn't be a problem -- the reader

3195:

I just want to thank Dreamguy for reverting Ungtss's last edits. Ungtss's sources came from think tanks propagating an agenda, rather than credible institutions. The section on Genesis that Ungtss objects to is not the work of think tanks but the work of legitimate biblical scholarship. The fact that

2670:

1) Actually, all of the near eastern flood myths originally listed here were treated this way (only the motives of Genesis and Atrahasis were discussed because they were the only ones that had motives recorded in their stories). If this offends your sensibilities, blame it on Biblical archaeology and

2563:

i am unaware of a single person who believes that the bible is true and is beyond the dispute of science. that is a straw man. creationists believe that the bible is true, and true science actually supports the bible. they believe that science itself is the most valuable thing we have ... but that

1804:

about him. A myth is not a myth because it is untrue. It is a myth because it is considered important traditional lore in some culture. It may also be true in the sense of a "true story" (there are always different ways to tell the same true story). :::Genesis. first written down in Hebrew in the 1st

1578:

i agree, and think that's a wonderful idea. at the moment, the article is not free of religious sentiment. it presents the minority view that the stories are not true without presenting the majority view that they are true. NPOV does not mean you cut out any religious points of view. it means you

1228:

2) if we don't assume inerrancy, the Genesis is just another of deveral mideastern flood myths, just like it was listed. You can still believe in it, of course, but you don't have to proove it is more accurate than the others. This is the stance of the Catholic Church: it is a matter of faith, not of

962:

everybody agrees that there were earlier sources. the question is, were those sources historically accurate, and if they were, who recorded them the best? modernists think genesis is just one pseudostory among many. those that take genesis seriously think whoever wrote it did so from authoritative

945:

sounds fair -- as long as the "Genesis evolved from the other myths" pov is either eliminated (so that this page only describes the myths without attempting to interpret their origin), or that view is present, and balanced by the "the other accounts devolved from a true written account" on this page,

908:

i guess that's the point, tho. speaking entirely within the context of the study of myths, we can either argue that they were ALL myths that evolved independently ... are all but one are myths that devolved from a historical event. same thing with the arrthur legends. you can argue that the arthur

819:

I apologize about the revert to the copy violations, I misread the line above explaining it and thought you had reverted to the version by that IP number because Ungtss' edits included removal of info and copy vios and new info. It'd be very nice to see those other myths here in non copyvio versions.

577:

Hello, please keep in mind that most Biblical archaeologists consider the biblical account to be legend, regardless of what "half the US population" thinks. Plus, the account is best understood after the other near eastern flood myths are taken into consideration. Eridu Genesis is put first to get it

433:

They did originally start out in the same article, I split them for reasons described near the top of this talk page. Anyway, I've created a separate article for the Black Sea deluge theory and added references to it from the various related articles; the material here in the mythology article can be

3225:

as to mr. grice's repeated nonsense, tell me, what are the criteria for cited academic opinion? it seems to me that professors and PhD's qualify. the cites were from professors with phds at accredited universities. these accusations of "thinktanks pushing an agenda" is sheer nonsense you're using

3149:

what does "how i come across" have to do with anything? wouldn't YOUR biblical scholars come across as pariahs in a group of biblical scholars who actually BELIEVE the book they study? doesn't it seem odd to you that you're constantly punting to authority instead of presenting any FACTS to support

3120:

That assumes that the mainstream geologists are totally objective, whereas creationists say that everyone interprets the evidence (and remember that geologists can only try and figure out what happened in the past; they can't observe the past) in the light of their own worldview, which in many cases

2737:

this is pov commentary. you are analyzing the motives behind the author, when none are evident in the text. the text purports only be a historical account. you are ascribing religious motives to him, just like you are ascribing religious motives to me, without any basis in fact. that seems to be

2439:

with the belief in divine inspiration of the ecumenical councils (Nicaea), i.e. that the canon of the Bible decided upon there is divinely inspired. But this is grotesquely off-topic now. I have no wish to educate you, but if you dig into the literature, your questions will be partially answered. It

2138:

The order should be as it was, which is the agreed upon order by scholars of mythology, which, if I need to remind you, is the topic of this article! So far all you've done is come up with new ways to argue why your religoius POV should be the prevaling view, and tried to hide it behind arguments of

2089:

I am sorry if you think I treat you unfairly. The 'sorry assed' strawmen I knocked over seemed to be set up by you. I apologize if you are really more rational than you appear. Maybe this will still become apparent. So far, you have not gone far beyond "credo quia absurdum". At least I tried to give

1718:

what part of "myth" do you not understand? Presenting myths makes no statement about how close they are to a possible historical event. The point is that they became a myth. King Arthur is mythological, hell, JFK is mythological, and that says nothing about whether or not they are historical rulers.

1615:

1492:

Israelites believed that sins commited had physical consequence on the land on which they lived, so physical solutions had to be made. For example, the land became polluted when murder was commited (spilling someone's blood and thus staining and cursing the ground). Several generations since mankind

1293:

the important part was: "this article should not present views, it should present myths." You can be religious, and you can still be a scientist, but your conclusions as a scientist should not be influenced by your religion. Therefore, it should really not matter if you are religious, as a scientist

1097:

things people always talk about. I added a possible origins section at the end. That's where we can have the folklore view (evolved from nothing, or rather minor incidents played up), the Biblical inerrancy view (with link to term), and the prehistoric cataclysmic flood views. Others can be added as

1036:

How do we order the stories chronologically and from a NPOV when the order is subject to POV? For example, the article referred to three stories as predating the Genesis account (I have now changed this), but that is the POV of people that believe that Genesis is derived from Gilgamish, and opposed

824:

and etc. for their side, I would lke to think mythologists would get slightly more play in an article on mythology than a subset of religious followers who assume their legends are true. I think I'll give it a while to sit (don;t want to repeat something like the revert problem) before I make edits,

799:

I am very much okay with displaying more flood myths and incourage them to be rewritten. I was actually very pleased to see them listed until I found the page they were copied from. Someone may wish to reword those accounts. Ungtss, despite my critism of your arguments, I think some of your concerns

506:

I'm all for more information rather than less. If Freud and Jung tie the womb to the flood myths, then fine, it is fodder for the page. Your mention of the creationist's water vapor canopy theory would have been the first I had heard of it if I had not just today encountered it while researching.

483:

OK, the thing I don't get here is the fascination with *just these* potential explanations for the origins of flood myths. I completely disagree with the idea that the historical floods should be mentioned in second paragraph, and especially as detailed as they are now. A one sentence explanation is

326:

The Ryan-Pitman Deluge theory is based on geologic and archeologic evidence that provides a foundation for the myths. Since the flood would have displaced so many people, the diaspora would have spread the story to Greece, Mesopotamia, and India, transmuting into myth along the way. The article is

3371:

page. You keep trying to add full long paragraphs supporting your religious belief. That's just not going to fly. If you believe there is some other interpretation inside the article other than at the end section, we can look at that part to make it as purely factual as possible. But balance is not

3295:

i agree -- it's the first paragraph and the atrahasis text -- the rest of it is wording which can be finessed. if we can get rid of the first paragraph which we agree is bad, at least CITE the atrahasis reference (because that's a good deal of speculation and certainly not a universal opinion) ...

3215:

Similar to the post-flood events in the Atrahasis Epic, new solutions were made so a flood would not ever be needed again. God's solution was the invention of laws to keep mankinds evil in check. Most of these that he handed down to Noah dealt with murder and blood spilling, in order to prevent the

3062:

it IS the majority opinion in the world. it is only a fringe opinion in western academia, which is itself a fringe opinion in the world. the arabs and jews CONTINUE to teach that text as objective, factual, secular history to this day. that's why they call themselves "Semitic" (sons of Shem, the

2535:

That's clearly not NPOV order and you clearly aren't even trying to be NPOV. Several people have stated that the order as it was is NPOV, as it comes from the outlines of other encyclopedias and reference books. Please stop trying to present your bias as if it were NPOV, because none of us here are

2278:

We will not quibble about a few centuries more or less here. If the historical Exodus was in ca. the 13th century, the texts would have accumulated for some 300 years before written down in their definite form. I repeat, however, that this is not the subject of this article at all. For the purposes

1682:

Genesis is taught as absolutely literal history in schools from ghana to pakistan. i know. i grew up in saudi arabia. the muslims believe the history to be true, with the exception that they believe that ISHMAEL was the legitimate son of abraham. the orthodox jews also hold it to be true, as it

1544:

has been created specifically to have a place where mythological floods can be discussed, as myths, in peace, and free of historical speculation or religious sentiment. The discussions on the creationism related pages are epic. No solution is in sight, since the two factions, truly Babel-like, have

1462:

once again, sir, i have no more of a religious agenda than you have a non-religious agenda. npov is religiously NEUTRAL, and your chronology is not religiously neutral. i'm not asking for this page to support my "agenda" (whatever the hell that might be -- i haven't gone to church in years). i'm

1242:

3-4) this article should not present views, it should present myths. Listing them by culture, and roughly chronological sees the best method. For the purposes of this article, it is irrelevant whether anybody still believes in the myth. (btw, why "non-western secularized scientists"? as opposed to

1144:

I don't think the thing you moved truly counts as a theory of origin, exactly. The origin section absolutely should not go to the front, and your edits that you called "ungutted" are trying to give your religious beliefs the same amount of space and weight as all the other origin theories combined,

846:

Grice: all good points well made:). just to clarify, although i'm a creationist generally, i'm not necessarily a strictly young-earth creationist -- i just have a great respect for some of their ideas and i think they should be out there for people to consider -- including the possibility that the

776:

I was the one who yanked those and it didn't have anything to do with the Genesis discussion. It was because all that information about the other myths was copied and pasted from anothe website and that might be a copyright violation. I have now reverted to the original compromise I made because of

491:

Specifically, we should mention the Creationists' water vapor canopy thing, Freudian/Jungian stuff about the watery womb, information about how some of the old chaotic forces and great monsters that destroy civilization were thought of as representing water (Tiamat, etc.) and, most importantly, the

3423:

i didn't change a word in the last section -- i like your solution, Grice -- i just added links and changed the paragraphing -- please feel free to fill in the other opinions -- they're just as valid as the creationist one -- i just think the creationist opinion needs to at least be represented on

3419:

i moved the text coming before the genesis account because it is speculation and is probably universal to all the myths ... but the other myths don't have anything of the kind. if we want genesis-specific academic opinions, i think they need to go AFTER the story itself, since all the others have

3177:

Maybe the best way to proceed from here would be that you quote the actual passages you take offense with here. So far, we have to try to figure out from your edits what you might mean, which may be less clear to outsiders than you imagine. If you quote the sentences you want to have changed here,

3049:

no. i'm complaining because that background about genesis is pov -- ONE point of view about the development of the text, designed to DECONSTRUCT it by delving into hypothesized motives of the author (including "is thought to be a conscious refutation of another myth.") that is sheer speculation,

2954:

The "rational basis" for the black sea hypothesis is not presented in this article either, even though that view has, atleast, made it into peer review journals, dispite it being controversial. Putting your arguments into the article, when they are not supported by geology or archaeology, are just

2464:

once again the patronizing. you have neither the need nor the ability to educate me. of course the fact that a text contains errors makes us ask "how many errors?" and that's when we turn to the style of the text and archaeology to answer our questions. there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between divine

1582:

the two ways to fix that problem are to either allow the myths to stand for themselves (which would just present the myths) or present a SPECTRUM of views regarding their origin. so since the view that genesis evolved from the earlier myths is currently in there, and it seems you want it to stay,

1523:

Ungtss, your argument has become circular. I already pointed out that such a view does have a source here, in a link at the end of the article, to a university website posting an article that appeared in Biblical Archaeologist. It goes into detail about the land being polluted by mans sins. Second

621:

as long as it gets displayed:). it wasn't even displayed before:). whether it should come first or last is a pov question ... you think it's best understood if it comes after the stories it evolved from. people that take it seriously think it's best understood coming before all the stories that

389:

My understanding is that the deluge prehistory page was meant for these myth origin theories, that it was originally part of this page but was turned into a seperate article. So why is the most controversial of those theories allowed to stay on the mythology page? Maybe they should all just be put

318:

I don't even see what this Black Sea part is doing here. The lead says prehistoric floods are on another page, so what's this doing on this page? It's completely out of place here. Putting it elsewhere also enhances the NPOV, as selecting this theory and only this theory (especially without taking

84:

The historical deluges section is wonderful, with tons of detail and examples. However, I don't think it really belongs tucked away in an article with (mythology) in its title; it's all about documentable, scientific geology and might easily be overlooked by someone hunting for that kind of thing.

3358:

You say this, yet your recent edits start out claiming "Approximately 1500 years after God created Adam, Genesis reports"...? That is a very obvious case of writing the article so it follows the POV that what the story says is historically accurate and factual, which is completely nuts for a page

2646:

OK, this is complete nonsense. To say that there were no ideas for a more NPOV order is a lie, and misrepresents the comments above. PErhaps your bias makes you blind to discussion you disagree with, I don't know, but we have consensus on the order, except for from the Creationist agenda that has

2147:

once again you've failed to present any facts. if you want to present the pov of one scholar who agrees with you, then i'll present the pov of a scholar who agrees with me. if you think your view is universal, you're kidding yourself. npov takes a NEUTRAL point of view. this page is currently

1838:

and isn't it odd that in the west, where evolution is taught as FACT, so many people believe it? what really surprises me is that people ... like me ... who were educated entirely in secular schools that tried to persuade me otherwise ... find genesis to be the most reasonable account of ancient

1821:

i ask you again to stop ascribing motives and beliefs to me. i don't believe it was divinely inspired. i don't believe it's inerrant. you're setting up strawmen and mocking me, which is, if i may so, intellectually "sorry-ass" behavior that doesn't speak well for your objectivity. i want some

1724:

myths are not timeless by definition. logically, there MUST BE a story of what ACTUALLY HAPPENED. there either WAS or WASN'T a king arthur, and he either DID or DIDN'T do certain things. what if we found an ancient book that described the life and death of arthur, talking about what age he did

1448:

Scholars in the field have set the chronology, as printed in tons of reference works. You wanted to try to force us to go by majority of what people who have no educational background on it think, I think we should go by the majority of the experts in the field think. Otherwise we'd be writing an

1432:

that you didn't have consensus to make these changes but did so anyway, this I reverted your changes. As already explained, popular opinion or religious beliefs have very little bearing on the study of history and mythology, and your opinion that it is the archetype that other flood myths evolved

1218:

what of the orthodox jews? and what of the muslims? what of the 1800 years in europe during which it was unanymously considered historical? i for one am not fundamentalist, evangelical, or reborn. i don't even go to church. just because the evangelicals are most actively pursuing the science

936:

Well I don't think any useful info is being provided by documenting a view that "they evolved out of nothing" and I don't think thats the view that archaologists take. The myths and legends should be stated, possible historical origins discussed on the prehistory page, and perhaps a brief mention

667:

true enough. i overstated again. but there are two readings of genesis's "mythological context" -- the view that it is just one myth among many, and the view that it is a historical account, among myths. the page doesn't necessarily have to support one or the other. but i think it's POV if it

643:

Here's my take on it... This is a page about MYTHOLOGY, not religious beliefs. Your statement that the Genesis account "is the only one that is still relevent today" is extremely biased and is unrelated to the question of the mythology. That's like saying that creation science is the only science

601:

to place genesis last, without any reference to the actual story, and with an interpretation about how it just evolved out of jewish superstitution, is a pov designed to make it appear that the story is FALSE. almost 50% of the US, and most of the Islamic world, believes the story as reported in

123:

of water that are fun to learn about and are also hightly relevant to North American surface geology. I'm not particularly interested in myths like the Deluge (I'm more of a Greek mythology kind of guy) so I normally wouldn't come here for that, I only noticed this article when the list of floods

2851:

used here? When/how is this myth attested? Might it actually be younger than Genesis? Also, some of the other myths (Americas) simply give the name of a people as a title and embarks right into a matter-of-fact narration (if these myths were the subject of any theological dispute, this would be

2220:

sounds good to me:). i don't have a problem with calling it a myth either -- "myth" is not perjorative -- it's a story, irrespective of whether it's true or not. but what i object to is the implication that the myths seriously believed by a substantial number of people to be based on fact were

1232:

you've need to distinguish inerrancy and historicity. to say that a document must be inerrant in order to be accurate would weed out nearly every book that's ever written. fundamentalists think that bible's inerrant. i don't. but i DO think it is at least INTENDED to be historical. how many

1014:

I would basically agree with this, though once a lot of flood myths from around the world are here it'll be very difficult to organize them purely chronologically. Like when was the Aztec one versus the Hindu one formed? Beats me. I think you probably need to do the MidEast ones chronoologically

339:

page. Nonetheless, there deserves to be a reference to it here, since it is such a compelling and thought provoking explanation for the wide dispersal of the myth, the rough timing, and the common features of the myths. The theory has much more weight than "pop science" (whatever that might be

2730:

You are also misrepresenting the commentary, it never said "God cursed the ground". "For example, the land became polluted when murder was commited (spilling someone's blood and thus staining and cursing the ground). Several generations since mankind left Eden, the land became filled with such

2507:

all i want here is an NPOV order, because the current order arbitrarily takes the view of chronology held by some biblical scholars instead of the view held by others. i made a few suggestions yesterday ... and i didn't get any suggestions, or any hard facts to support the present chronology.

1497:

where does that idea come from, and what basis does it have in the text? The text says, "God regretted having made mankind, and decided to send a flood to destroy them." where does all this "land being evil but man not being evil" stuff come from? i need a cite on that, or else it's personal

767:

OK, I did a history comparison check between the version offfered by Grice as a "compromise" and the one we had reverted to earlier. The new one had HUGE amounts of informations from myths from around the world comp[letely yanked out, which apparently happened during the only the Genesis one is

487:

On the other hand, if we are going to mention that these are possible explanations for why flood myths evolved, then it seems to me that we should, following NPOV principles, mention *all the other* explanations that have been offered over the years to explain how these flood myths came about.

3165:

i did not and i do not want this page to be about genesis and historicity, but your relentless censorship has left me no choice but to cite scholars opposing your viewpoint for balance. if you would like to return this page to being about myths, we need to: 1) find an npov order 2) remove all

3009:

remarks now. Let's not get too heated about this. As long this is just about the section ordering, this is a matter of article flow and layout, and a minor issue in any case. As for your concern "why are the motives of the authors analyzed only for Genesis" I am afraid I don't get you. Are you

1246:

better said: non-western, or non-secularized scientists. in the past, scientists were religious. today, 50% of the scientific community is atheist, while 10% of the general public is. the pov in the contemporary western scientific community is one pov, but it's one of several, and should be

260:

Is the 5500 BCE a reference to the "catastrophic flood" theory concerning the Black Sea? If so, then that date should be changed or removed since scientists studying the Black Sea since that idea was hypothesized by William Ryan and Walter Pitman do not support the "catastrophic flood" theory.

3233:

Think tanks use scholars with Phd's. However, the think tanks, with lots of money pouring into them, are working to produce the desired result that the think tank wants. They are not being put through the scientific method. You've already said you understand that most bibliclal archaeologists

2629:

i moved the genesis account to the front since after a day there were no ideas for a more npov order, and genesis is the best known and most detailed account. i also placed the personal-research commentary about genesis intact and after the account. it should be noted that none of the other

2366:

What factual basis do you have for saying the believing that genesis is historical is limited to those who believe it's inerrant. inerrancy didn't come around in any force until 1898. the nicene council VOTED on what should go in the bible. i don't believe in inerrancy, but i have a STRONG

1640:

being myths, these stories can not be presented to either "be true" or "be untrue". They can only be presented as myths. The article is not perfect. At the moment, it is biased towards "historicity of Genesis", because rather than just stating that some people believe that, it gives a list of

2765:

that is also patently false. the article goes into a GREAT DEAL of detail regarding the flooding rivers and the black sea -- in fact, about twice as much as the flood geology argument. if you want a sentence of detail for the basis of that theory, add it. don't cut out another argument.

2543:

is arguments from majority and accusations of bias all you really have? do you not see the problem here? i am telling you very clearly that there are multiple views on the order ... and you are saying, "no! the majority thinks one way, so we're gonna present it that way." that, sir, is

1867:

that was not the evolution to which i was referring. you assert that genesis "evolved" from earlier myths. i assert that the other myths DEVOLVED from an earlier HISTORICAL account, of which genesis is the most accurate extant reflection. i find the evolutionary argument to be bunk.

1256:

5) agreed, this is about the origin of the Genesis story. Probably meant to hint at the question "how does it tie in with the other versions floating around in the area, at the time". We can scrap it, because it should be very clear already, just from putting the versions next to each

3379:

quit the accusations and deal with the facts. is there ANY analysis into the motives of the authors for any of the other accounts? no. is the "genesis is not true" analysis approximately 5 times as long as the "genesis is true" analysis? yes. what tract have you been reading?

923:

i agree with you totally. i just think you've got to present those two possibilities -- that they evolved out of nothing ... that it evolved from cultural memories of the black sea flooding ... or that they devolved from a historical account written by the people that were there.

540:

We're missing a great number of flood myths from other cultures. I find it hard to believe somewhere in this wikipedia we don't already have some Native American ones, for example, like one of the Earthdiver variants. If it already exists we should move a summary over and link.

3234:

consider the flood to be legend and not fact. The concensus here is that we want the page to reflect the facts presented by mainstream scholarship and scientific research. Mentioning the view of flood geology is okay but arguing for their beliefs on the page is inapropriate.

3040:

i'm nowhere near as ad hominem as the attacks i've been dealing with -- consistently "ignorant, in need of education, and of an extremist religious opinion, biased, perverting the facts." grow up, fellas. we're all big boys here and there's room for everybody's view in the

1331:"the science of non-religious scientists" is a strawman designed to raise the status of creationism. What you have is science (the study of natural phenomina), which is the science of religious and nonreligious scientists, and you have creationism, a fundimentalist movement. 909:

legends arose spontaneously out of nothing ... or that they were exaggerated accounts based on some actual, historical event. why, if we argue that there might have been an "arthur" of some sort to inspire the incessant legends ... do we insist that the flood is pure myth?

744:

I think you are arguing from an extremely POV position. A huge percentage (not sure on most, but if not most, close) of the people of those faiths are not literalists and think that it could all be a legend. And this article, again, si abotu mythology, not religious beliefs.

736:

true enough. the hindu. i overstated. but genesis is the most widely-held opinion, among christians, muslims, and jews, covering 50% of north america, a solid majority in south america and africa, and near universality in the middle east. it's the majority flood story.

1762:

i'm happy with the way it is now -- i only question the order of the stories. why are we presuming that genesis came later? reasonable minds disagree on that point, so we can either identify the different points of view or look for some FACTUAL BASIS for the chronology.

2385:

inerrant, it contains errors, in the sense of, it contains things that did not happen. In order to contain errors, it would already have to be about something that happened, which is unclear. If it is not historical at all, it cannot contain "errors" in this sense either.

2035:

That is one POV. Other POVs are that it was written by Moses, or that it was compiled by Moses from pre-existing written documents that date back to the events recorded (i.e. creation, flood, Babel, etc.). If the last POV is correct, then it does not post-date Gilgamish.

2315:

alright, we can put that in ... but we also have to put in the position of the biblical scholars that think it was written by moses based on more ancient documents still. do you want both of those opinions in here, or should we leave that for a page just for genesis?

2221:

simply evolving tales around the campfire, without some factual basis for that claim. and throwing names around isn't gonna cut it, because scholars disagree on that point, so we can cite both ways. if we wanna structure the ARTICLE around it, we need facts.

3330:

i have better things to do than waste my time arguing over "who has the majority" with you guys. i DON'T want this page to be a forum for biblical literalism ... but i don't want it to be a forum for deconstructionist modernity either. here's what i propose:

1743:

if it's really bogus, then it can do no harm. personally, i think the "evolutionary" viewpoint is bogus. we presume to know how the stories evolved, without any evidence to link them or provide chronology whatsoever. and this passes as scholarship today:(.

1191:

5) how is "The majority of secular scholars and biblical archaeologists hold that the Genesis account evolved from prior accounts into its present form, and was either based on a large local flood or originated entirely in fiction." not a theory of origin?

899:

on the point that this page should deal with the mythology/legends of flood myths rather than current existing religious beliefs about such stories being grounded in real history. I'll have to dwell on it as well so it can be done while satisfying everyone.

2029:

Genesis. first written down in Hebrew in the 1st millennium BC, composed probably around 700 BC, but oral tradition may well go a couple of centuries further back. Hardly coeval with the earliest version of the Gilgamesh epos, ca. 1000 years older, isn't

1999:

i'll stop with the majority of people when YOU stop with the majority of scholars:). i want a single fictional myth that lists geneologies of people, with the years they lived and died, and dates for the major events on those people's lives. just one.

2889:

Dreamguy: how can you look at yourself in the mirror knowing you are evading, distorting, and censoring a viewpoint simply because it is different than yours, and how is this behavior any better than that of the religious crusaders and ideologues you so

2630:

accounts are given the same sort of motives-based, personal research commentary and deconstructive analysis as genesis. i would like some factual basis for that commentary, or a scholar to cite for it ... as it's subject to the following pov objection:

2125:

Ordering them by date of composition of the known text is still POV, unless you are referring to the date of the earliest known extant copies. But if the latter, you then go and undermine your argument by including a disputed POV about when Genesis was

2714:

so npov means majority among editors i suppose, regardless of the facts? you failed to address ANY of my concerns, returning me only accusations of bias and "perversions of the facts." do you really consider this to be intellectually honest behavior?

2494:

The article currently reads those people who believe in inerrancy and those people who believe it is most historical. That's accurate. There shouldn't be any dispute on the point, as it covers both factions of the "Genesis flood is history" persuasion.

3216:

earth from becoming once again polluted. Interestingly, the first of the post-flood laws, a commandment to be "fruitful", "multiply", and "Swarm over the earth", is thought to be a conscious refutation, from the biblical author, of the Atrahasis Epic."

878:

Dreamguy: C.S. Lewis, Mythologist and Medeival Literature professor, held the "other" view regarding the myths, as did many others. i can cite it for you if you'd like, but there are definitely two views, both of which should be represented i think.

103:

Flood. The direct connections aren't being overstated. If they are, tone them down. Similarly the sacred bull of India to Thrace and the fearsome real aurochs. Their territories overlap. Yikes! even Christianity might have some genuine history to it!

2926:" Because the views of the scholar, who seems to know what she is talking about and seems to understand the cultural context of Genesis, has passed the scientific method. There is nothing controversial about the research within biblical scholarship. 2367:

inclination to think it was at least INTENDED to be historical. everyone who believes the story believes its historical, but NOT everyone who believes the story believes its inerrant. inerrancy is a straw-man. justify your position or leave it.

561:

1) I put the genesis account first because it is the only one that is still relevent today -- why is it important to have it last, when it is the only one still taken seriously (by half the US population), and nobody's even heard of the eridu one?

495:

I'm also looking for the sources I saw a while back showing most scientists think Ryan, Pitman and Ballard are off their rockers. Once I do I'll post it in the appropriate article and then you guys debating about whether it belongs here can see it.

2261:

We don't want to structure the article around the evolution of the pentateuch. That Gilgamesh is older than Genesis is undisputed, the scholars disagree about the details, and maybe a couple of centuries. Here is a summary of scholarly positions:

446:

I think that Grice is right, the other theories deserve to be mentioned and linked as well, so I have done so. This is in the best traditions of the web and Knowledge, that the neutral point of view information be made available and crosslinked.

3222:

could interpret it as they like. the problem is that there's a whole bunch of critical interpretation of the text (including "didn't send the flood to punish man, but to wash away the pollution") and "the ancient israelites believed" ...

2246:

the author, it is a lot older than you think it is. The point was when it was written. I have no doubt that you could find opinions that Genesis was written after Exodus, but the point is that there is not unanimous agreement on that.

3241:

you cannot arbitrarily decide which academics are credible based on your views of "think tanks." does the opinion of greenpeace become unciteable on issues of environmentalism because THEY have an agenda? this is sheer censorship.

2611:

that's not the same thing. to say the bible is factually errant but spiritually true is not the same as saying the bible is factually true no matter what science says. the former is a widespread belief. the latter is a straw-man.

1515:

Feel free to bring in some real scholarly interpretation in a later section called "analysis of the myths." as it stood, however, it singled Genesis out for deconstructive source-based analysis in an unfair, POV, and uncited way.

3077:

Actually both Attrahasis and Gilgamesh contain commentary about motivation for the flood. Jewish beliefs about sin and the ground were not their motives so they are not mentioned there. So all three of these stories were presented

2121:

The idea that Genesis was written by Moses is not just my POV, but the view of Judaism, other parts of the Bible, of Christianity for most of its history, and of many scholars. What support does your POV of Leviathan authorship

2516:

The Genesis account is already mentioned in the introduction paragraph of the article as being one of the most well known. So theres no need to reorder the flood myths with Genesis first, Those are my thoughts on that issue.

1586:

i would appreciate it if you wouldn't ascribe motives to me that don't exist. if you really think you're totally objective and the majority of human beings are "fundamentalists" then i really don't know what to say to you.

2912:

that is plainly untrue. both of those stories only present the story. the genesis section goes into great detail about jewish beliefs regarding sin and the ground, which neither of those do. what are you talking about?

1889:"what really surprises me is that people ... like me ... who were educated entirely in secular schools that tried to persuade me otherwise ... find genesis to be the most reasonable account of ancient history we have. 3014:

view, you see? I really don't get it. You continue to insist that the mainstream view is the minority view, a statement that seems simply confused to me. You know, not everyone who has his views ridiculed for being

2824:

where did anyone address my concern that the view of "mainstream biblical scholarship" regarding the chronology of the stories is taken as fact in the article, rather than cited to the minority of people who believe

1015:

first (as is now) and then Greek (classical, well known) and then maybe Hindu and then break the rest down into groups, like Native American (then with subsections) and Far East and whatever else we have eventually.

2508:

without hard facts, i don't think chronology is appropriate, because scholars disagree -- so i suggest we do it by the degree to which they are well-known ... but i'll wait for other considerations. any thoughts?

1789:

believe that Genesis is "the best" accound, let alone the "literal truth". Anyway, I know you have a different definition of "science", but in my book, results are based on research, and not on a census in primary

784:

would it be possible to reword those to make them okay? they are ancient MYTHS after all ... not CREATED by the person that put them up -- just reported and attributed to their original source. no new material.

223:--- Interesting to note that the Saroi system of counting years of the partiachs given in the Bible back to Noah's flood goes back to around 13000YPB. How about putting the rest of the dates in next to the titles? 3129:

exclusion of any consideration of the supernatural as a factor. Thus mainstream geologists are not totally objective, and therefore it is not valid to claim that Flood Geology would be accepted if it was valid.

417:

Well all the theories at the prehistorical flood page try to explain the myths. I think that is why that page and this page started out as the same article. If I am wrong about this, somebody correct me. Thanks.

2760:

belief in flood "geology" but the article shouldnt present your arguments for that view since it has even less credibility than the Black Sea hypothesis, who's arguments are not presented, just the hypothesis."

1524:

point, that brief summary of Genesis did not deny "man not being evil" as you put it. That is a bit of a strawman. (I also feel that summary should be restored since it does have biblical archaeologist backing).

3303:

What I'm thinking of doing is removing the comparisions all together, either into its own section, or creating an Attrahasis page where the scholarly research comparing Genesis and Attrahasis can be presented.

2700:

2671:

Old Testament scholarship, which tends to focus on the differences between Genesis and the Mesopotamian stories related to them (which makes sense since the purpose of their research is to understand Genesis).

2019:

What is our guiding principle for the order to the stories? if you want it to be chronology then i need hard facts supporting the present implied chronology. otherwise we need to use some other criteria.

1440:

Chronology sounds like a good basis for order. what factual basis do we have for the chronology you are presuming now? that is, what facts do you have to support your conclusion that genesis came later?

3143:

I would keep that statement confined to the internet. If you actually told a real acedemic cirlce of scholars that there is no factual basis for the dating of the texts, you would come across as a pariah.

3088:

2986:

flood geologists seem to think they're supported by geology. that's another pov that is going entirely unrepresented on this page now that you've repeatedly censored a half-sentence justification for it.

1404:

1) it is the best known, held to be historically accurate by nearly all of europe for 2000 years, by almost half the US population today, by most of south america and africa, and almost all of the middle

1725:

things, who his ancestors and descendents were, what he made his castle out of, and how he spent his afternoons. we would give that account more credibility than the other more "mythological" stories.

2647:

stepped in to try to pervert the article to advance their religious beliefs. Please leave this article alone if all you want to do is vandalize it with your articles of faith, as you are violating the

3400:

please see above. I am not sure which parts you consider to say "Genesis is not true". Certainly not the paragraphs you cited as 'objectionable' above? I don't see that they say anything of the kind.

3387:

i corrected the intro to the genesis account to consider dreamguy's concern -- thank you for pointing that out, and i would appreciate working together on making this a fair article in the future.

3072:

both of those stories only present the story. the genesis section goes into great detail about jewish beliefs regarding sin and the ground, which neither of those do. what are you talking about?

2790:

of your concerns have been answered, patiently, several times. That you refuse to listen to reason, or to mainstream biblical scholarship, is your own choice, but it doesn't concern this article.

2044:

exactly:). in the absence of any hard evidence of chronology -- just interpretation -- i think it's inappropriate to order the stories as they are presently ordered. I propose we order them:

916:

I don't think that presenting the myths as mythology is neccessarily arguing that they evolved out of nothing. Possible origins for these myths are discussed on the Deluge (prehistoric) page.

256:

Growing evidence is demonstrating that catastrophic flooding, on a scale unimaginable in modern times, punctuated the melting of the ice age glaciers, at several occasions until about 5500 BCE

402:

the point is that the theory tries to explain the origin of the myth. So clearly, reference to it belongs on this page. I'm not saying it should be spread out in all detail here; do create

119:

Actually, I'm an excellent example of someone who cares about "a bunch of ol' glacial floods" entirely on their own merits without connection to mythology. These were great big fantastic

2847:

quite apart from the ongoing controversies, some of the myths could do with some background and wikification, and some might be actual copyvio copy-pasted off the net. In what sense is

2722:

i'm not talking about God's motives. i'm talking about the author's motives. that section speculates on the motives and biases of the author, when none are made explicit in the text.

1109:

I agree with you. (I think the hindu story is also in the Shatapathabrahmana?). The ToC looks ok now. Images: We could use an artist's impression to add to the rather dry clay tablet.

1785:

so many people believe in it, don't we? Not because they did any research on it, to be sure. And certainly not because they are experts on Near Eastern history. And most of them will

386:

Dbachmann said in his revert "a reference to a theory as to the origin of the myths is indeed appropriate. did you read the talk page? they were just going to create a main article."

2936:

why is the view of "mainstream biblical scholarship" regarding the chronology of the stories taken as fact in the article, rather than cited to the minority of people who believe it?

2883:

why is the view of "mainstream biblical scholarship" regarding the chronology of the stories taken as fact in the article, rather than cited to the minority of people who believe it?

1145:

which is highly biased. My goal was to give all of them one to two sentences maximum, not to go into any great detail. The things you added are already in one or both Noah articles (

1527:

Your assertion that "none of the other texts are subjected to the same sort of analysis" is also wrong. All of the near eastern flood myths were presented this way in that section.

1219:

doesn't mean they're the only ones that believe it. it just means they're the only ones living in countries where public schools are teaching them that they're religion is wrong.

1921:

I removed the arguments given for historical accuracy mainly because the other near eastern flood myths also have measurements for the ark and also name the place the ark landed.

1233:

myths have extensive geneologies with dates of events? if this was a myth, it was a REALLY WEIRD ONE. i repeat my question: why must a document be inerrant to be historical?

2748:

i read it. if you want that drivel in there, cite it by the author. don't present it as fact. there are a lot of people who find that sort of speculation to be laughable.

825:

but perhaps Genesis back to where it was, but explanded, and then the whole literalist versus mythology scholars mentioned as end part of lead or something might work better.

2828:

the only concern that seems to be addressed is your concern that the minority needs to go away and leave the speculations of "mainstream scholarship" unchallenged by fact.

1129:

i moved the other "theory of origin" to the theory of origin section. i'm cool if we move the whole section to the front ... but i think they've all got to stay together.

855:

of a fiction. makes life a little more interesting, i think:). sorry i chopped up gilgamesh -- thanks for working with me:). i'll try and rework some of those myths:).

2821:

where did anyone address my concern that the above speculation is presented as fact, rather than cited to a particular author in the context of other authors who disagree?

1736:

complete bogus arguments, such as "They conclude that Genesis is the most historically accurate account available today, because it has the greatest degree of detail"

1641:

complete bogus arguments, such as "They conclude that Genesis is the most historically accurate account available today, because it has the greatest degree of detail"

1934:

1) the argument didn't say it was the ONLY account with those details. it said it had the MOST detail, which is true. it is the only one with geneologies and dates.

1545:

different vocabularies (divided tongues). A spillover of this unhealthy confusion to this page is explicitly undesireable, because we really just want to discuss the

128:

where I'd been watching them. I don't have time right now, but tomorrow evening I'll look at various options for how to organize this stuff to satisfy all interests.

1864:"Evolution is hardly 'bogus'. It is, rather, the "empty" statement of "what happens, happens". Certainly true, but you'd want to find out more. Not the issue here." 1705:

by that definition, all of history is a myth, because we can't go back and verify it -- all we have are the records -- some of which are more credible than others.

729:

Mythologically speaking, the others ones ARE taken seriously. And I think some of the other flood stories on the page are still believed as true by some cultures.

2164:

right. Leviathan was sarcasm, of course. I have no problem with stating that Judaism traditionally believes that Moses wrote Genesis, but wouldn't that belong on

1800:" (but consider reading the article). If we found King Arthur's autobiography, we might find out that he lived, but that would not change the fact that there are 1793:

Evolution is hardly 'bogus'. It is, rather, the "empty" statement of "what happens, happens". Certainly true, but you'd want to find out more. Not the issue here.

2665:

it should be noted that none of the other accounts are given the same sort of motives-based, personal research commentary and deconstructive analysis as genesis

1579:

create an article that neither "advances nor hinders" them. the article, as it stands, very clearly hinders the majority point of view regarding the myths.

2528:

i'm not concerned with whether the article reflects the widespread nature of genesis. i just want an npov order, and that's the best one i can think of.

2774:

are you quite serious with all this stuff? do you have any idea to the degree to which you're denying reality to support your bias in this situation?

1215:

1) christian. more precisely the American "reborn" variety. I have yet to meet a Jew so much into proving the "historicity" of the Bible to the letter.

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re: "majority", I only have your word for that. I dispute that the majority of people believe in Genesis (the majority probably have never heard of it)

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re: "majority", I only have your word for that. I dispute that the majority of people believe in Genesis (the majority probably have never heard of it)

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I'm thinking maybe a page that deals solely with the near eastern flood myths, since there isn't any dispute that those stemmed from a single source.

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Flood geology is not credible, otherwise their views would be mainstream geology and there would be no need for them to exist as a seperate movement.

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Flood geology is not credible, otherwise their views would be mainstream geology and there would be no need for them to exist as a seperate movement.

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And now I just ran into a practical problem too, instead of just personal preference; I wanted to reference this list of prehistoric floods from the

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son of Noah). they believe this actually happened, not on a "religious" basis as we do in the west, but as a HISTORY text. am i getting through?

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a moajority would believe it, it would not matter here. Of course a myth is something people believe in, as part of a mythology, not as verifiable.

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a moajority would believe it, it would not matter here. Of course a myth is something people believe in, as part of a mythology, not as verifiable.

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i like it the way it is -- please feel free to fill in the "mainstream academic opinion" -- my intention is NOT to make this a creationist forum.

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2) you've replaced it with a parody of the creationist perspective. historicity is not based on inerrancy. you're misrepresenting the position.

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I'm going to ask that you don't hack up my discussions like you did with my earlier post. Just copy and paste the parts you want to respond to.

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I really don't see where you perceive the article to be implying that the myths are "not true". Most of the article simply states their content.

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I really don't see where you perceive the article to be implying that the myths are "not true". Most of the article simply states their content.

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Wouldn't it be better to move this section to "Flood", or perhaps to a new article called "Deluge (historical)" or something along those lines?

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the time to show the other side criticizing it) is advancing it as true. It's just throwing pop science into a completely inappropriate place.

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pollution. God then brought on the great flood not as a punishment for human wickedness but to wash away the pollution caused by evil deeds."

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because it has dates/genealogies. This argument makes no sense at all. I can make up dates and genealogies in five minutes. Also, so does the

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is the possible connection between the Deluge and these Deluges. Who cares about a bunch of ol' glacial floods? unless they sparked tales of

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As long as the fact that the version of Genesis we have depends upon earlier sources, which include the Sumerian myth cycle, we're honest. --

1056: 367:? I like a generic title without researcher names or specific dates to allow for alternate versions of the theory to be easily encompassed. 2744:"You really ought to read the source for the commentary I have already mentioned to you twice before (located at the end of the artilce)." 3349:

i don't care which we do. but i will not accept a page that presents your pov as fact without presenting the other. that's disgusting.

722:(you have a list of stories ... and the only one where you don't actually tell the story is the only one that's still taken seriously.) 595:

2) the other accounts are more mythological and legendary versions of the same event, of which genesis is the most historically accurate.

2094:. My pov is that the Leviathan wrote Genesis on the bottom of the ocean, and I demand inclusion of this pov alongside the Moses pov! :o) 2595:

equivalent to "true", it is rather an (arguably weasly) way of saying "true in a spiritual sense, not necessarily in an earthly sense"

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any other proposed ordering schemes are welcome ... or any hard facts supporting the pov that genesis evolved from the other stories.

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Good. Put a brief analysis of the critique into the article and add the reference to External links. It's for the article, not for me.

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why is the above speculation presented as fact, rather than cited to a particular author in the context of other authors who disagree?

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why is the above speculation presented as fact, rather than cited to a particular author in the context of other authors who disagree?

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where did anyone address the concern about genesis being the only account in which the biases and motives of the author are analyzed?

2719:"only the motives of Genesis and Atrahasis were discussed because they were the only ones that had motives recorded in their stories" 344:?)). If you can find evidence of an alternate scientific theory or theories, please enlighten us and put it on the page also. -- Hu. 335:

I think that the theory does deserve an article of its own, since it has material that might end up being duplicated here and on the

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commentary about the motives of the author of genesis 3) make sure that the origins section reflects all points of view accurately.

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And here is a graphic representatino of one scholarly position, assuming "genesis of the pentateuch" between ca. 900 BC and 450 BC:

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2) it is the most detailed, as it is the only one to provide actual dates (in terms of months and days) for what allegedly happened;

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You've missed the point, dab. I wasn't arguing for inclusion of the idea that Moses was the author. The point was that if Moses

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to the POV of those that believe that all the stories derive from the real historical event that Genesis most faithfully records.

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2) is the science of non-religious scientists informed by their non-religion, or is their non-religion informed by their science?

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simple fact that the cradles of civilization were built on flood plains and legends always exaggerate facts for dramatic effect.

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i know it's okay with you, but that doesn't make it right. there's no factual basis for it, and reasonable minds disagree.

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It was intended to be historical, except that the modern concept of history di not yet exist. It was intended as historical,

1848:"If we found King Arthur's autobiography, we might find out that he lived, but that would not change the fact that there are 569:

2) you reverted any reference to what the text actually SAID, leaving uncited deconstructionist interpretation of it. why?

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i know it's okay with you, but that doesn't make it right. there's no factual basis for it, and reasonable minds disagree.

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But say, what about the refilling of the Mediterranean? There's a deluge that's not connected here. Would it make sense at

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yeah that's funny. if you ever wanna stop evading and censoring everybody's thoughts but your own, i'll still be there.

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and that's the part i agree with. beyond that, here are the two questions that should be left totally open, in my opinion

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of the myth rather than its origin, so it would belong under "modern versions" and not under a section speculating on the

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page without including the mythological aspect too. So I'm going to split off the section now and see how the chips fall.

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i'm not here to preach. i don't care what anybody thinks. these are my objections. would anyone care to answer them?

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2) how is inerrancy necessary for the argument? the muslims don't believe in inerrancy, but they believe in the flood.

3058:"You continue to insist that the mainstream view is the minority view, a statement that seems simply confused to me." 2402:

who says the modern sense of history did not yet exist? what's more modern than geneologies and dates and locations?

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1) is the science of religious scientists informed by their religion, or is their religion informed by their science?

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1) explain to me why this is a religious argument. which religion am i supporting, christianity, islam, or judaism?

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What is our guiding organizational principle as to the order ? chronology? widespread belief? degree of detail?

2353:"That Gilgamesh is older than Genesis" is NOT undisputed (unless all you are talking about is extant manuscripts). 614:

The account does get fair representation because it is displayed in the context of the rest of the flood accounts.

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is a good thing to be critical. You just need to apply your criticism equally among the theories under scrutiny.

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4) why is it appropriate to have the minority view at the beginning, and the majority view relegated to the end?

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enough with the "majority" already. We do not censor even the minority, here. Your version says that Genesis is

1153:) so do not need to be described in detail here. Mythology pages are not the place to make religious arguments. 1967:

older than Genesis, but nobody assumes it is "historically accurate" because it has both dates and genealogies

276: 2909:?" I've already pointed out that this is not true, both Atrahasis and Gilgamesh were presented the same way. 2409:

who says the author of genesis had the same intent as homer? where are the dates and geneologies in homer?

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this is pov commentary. you are analyzing the motives behind the author, when none are evident in the text.

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in questions of the factual accuracy of events in the bible. Note that "article of faith beyond dispute" is

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really more than sufficient, in my opinion. If it was lower down I thought a couple of sentences were fine.

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and no problem. There are terrible flood disasters like the Dutch flood (13th century?). Sometimes you have

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there is a great deal controversial about it. people both within and outside academia think it's a crock.

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sounds good ... could also go on the "noah's ark" page or something ... a page that's genesis-specific.

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I would be enthusiastic about a more detailed discussion of the different theories of composition on the

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The Freud/Jungian stuff is very welcome. The "vapory canopy stuff", whatever it is, is more likely to be

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whoa, what's it with the indents here? who said what? Is this Ungtss arguing with himself, now? Ungtss,

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Once they are myths, they are so regardless of historical connections. Myths are timeless by definition.

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Once they are myths, they are so regardless of historical connections. Myths are timeless by definition.

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about literalists (in a relative sense of the word) and a link to the article discussing their views.

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to exclude opinions you're afraid of. so tell me, what's your criteria for "biblical scholarship?"

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we'll be good. i'm gonna try again:). i don't want a war -- let's work this out peaceful like:).

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the story standing by itself. i tried to write it in line with dab's suggestions ... tweak away:).

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i just don't get you, man. can't you see what you've become? you've become the people you hate.

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harshly criticized, i.e. who believes in the "inerrancy" of the Chaldean myth as presented here??)

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errors the text contains. Also, you seem to confuse papal infallibility established in 1870 by the

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if a text contains errors, it is therefore of no value as to understanding the events it records?

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you serious replies. If your pov is that "Moses wrote Genesis", I'm sorry, but it doesn't say that

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are just distorted copies of it. that's a difficult problem. any suggestions on solving it?

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3) it is the "common denominator" -- or "archetype" around which all the other myths revolve.

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contemporary scientists are making a HUGE mistake with regard to the origins of the earth.

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why is genesis the only account in which the biases and motives of the author are analyzed?

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how much is that in dog years? 13000 X 7 = 91,0000 years. Wow! What's your weight on Mars?

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i have reinserted a cited, scholarly paper on the topic presenting the opposing viewpoint.

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why is genesis the only account in which the biases and motives of the author are analyzed

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a convenient way to dismiss opinions you find inconvenient, but it certainly isn't honest.

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why do you persist on censoring any rational basis for belief in the flood from the page?

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why do you persist on censoring any rational basis for belief in the flood from the page?

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These arguments were already raised by you above and rejected by several editors, so you

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Sorry for the misunderstanding. I did already put up a critique and reference but on the

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you will justify your censorship of this cited, academic article before you censor it.

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2) You are also misrepresenting the commentary, it never said "God cursed the ground".

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we do not try to obscure the fact that some people try to find historical events that

792:(i like your compromise, by the way -- it presents both povs quite fairly i think:). 183:

I think the idea of the great deluge known across the world is typically known as the

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that's not so much a pov (not to mention a minority one) as a dictionary definition.

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sources, while the others did it from a slowly fading memory of a historical event.

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btw, there can be main articles to any of the sections. For example, you can create

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3) which is ACTUALLY the majority view, among non-western, secularized scientists?

188: 184: 187:, and this article should thus be located there... It is a pretty good article... 3364: 2068:...and those pre-existing written documents were scarcely legible because of the 1295: 1150: 3430: 3388: 3381: 3350: 3312: 3297: 3267: 3257: 3243: 3227: 3170: 3151: 3064: 3051: 2996: 2942: 2914: 2895: 2829: 2775: 2767: 2749: 2723: 2687:

i would like some factual basis for that commentary, or a scholar to cite for it

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1) X says the story was invented because the jews believed God cursed the ground

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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back on this page. Until then, my vote is to keep the theory on the historical

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were neccessary since it took out important information while adding nothing.

685: 615: 579: 419: 395: 302: 282: 262: 3045:"Are you complaining that we have not more background on the American myths" 2637:

2) Y says the jews believed God cursed the ground because he actually did.

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already in the language. But sometimes you need to disambiguate the heading:

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problem: the commentary around the genesis account presents one pov as fact.

2693:) by a professor of Old Testament scholarship. So the source has credibilty. 2431:

sigh. if a text contains errors, it may be criticized, i.e. people will ask

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Genesis was not written in Mesopotamia, as this entry is currently stating.

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http://lava.tamu.edu/courses/geol101/herbert/docs/BlackSeaFloodCritique.pdf

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we alright? sorry it got heated, fellas, i appreciate the good work:).

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all the theories at the prehistorical flood page try to explain the myths

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These are my concerns, repeated for the 6th time and still unaddressed:

715:

can we add some reference to the actual text before we deconstruct it?

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2) none of the other texts are subjected to the same sort of analysis.

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That's true. then we'd have an autobiography and a bunch of myths.

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1) the genesis story just evolved from other accounts, and is legend.

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as long as we don't step on either of those questions, we're good.

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i'm gonna put the majority view back in to return the page to npov.

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delete all commentary, allowing the myths to stand for themselves

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well, if Genesis is taught in so many schools, we get an idea of

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i do understand that, but there are two povs regarding the flood.

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research ... for which i can find absolutely no factual basis.

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1) it is not cited, and i can find no basis for it in the text.

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might take some embarassing material off a biology entry, eh!.

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disgusting. you need indisputable facts, or another order.

3093:

flood geologists seem to think they're supported by geology.

1940:

cummon, man. compromise. don't censor the majority here.

1831:"if Genesis is taught in so many schools, we get an idea of 1338:

that's one pov ... and as it happens, it's a minority pov.

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the page, since the flood myth is CENTRAL to creationism:).

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i don't want a friggin war, dudes. i just want fairness.

3005:

Ungtss, you should take care. You are dangerously colse to

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Grice, stop bashing the Ryan-Pitman. I like their idea :oP

353:

Deluge (prehistoric)#The Black Sea (around 7,600 years ago)

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entirely devoted to the Genesis story, and you can create

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fortunately, this is very easy to order chronologically.

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it is, for example, the official stance of the marginal

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I have removed the commentary for the following reasons:

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genesis is ACCURATE. it deserves fair representation.

1401:

I moved Genesis to the front for the following reasons:

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sorry -- missed that one. any thoughts on the order?

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Hebrew myth, ca. 1000 (in Judaism, traditionally 1445)

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http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/images2/munster.JPG

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Theories of Origin of the Great Flood story in Genesis

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is historical, and I think it very probable that the

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provide cited commentary on both sides of the issue.

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like the Iliad was intended as historical. If it is

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http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Doctwo/models.htm

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rather than here? Do we, each time we want to say "

700:because they were copied and pasted from this site 2196:contains much historical facts about a historical 2148:designed to serve YOUR agenda. that's not npov. 1247:considered in its social and historical context. 763:Removal of the vast majority of myths on this page 196:With enough Wiki links and redirects, it could be 2184:"? A better simile than Arthur or Leviathan is 2180:traditionally believes to have been written by 1387:Why has the Sumerian kings list been removed? 361:Deluge (mythology)#The Black Sea Deluge Theory 301:page (it's more appropriate there than here). 2902:This addresses Tngtss's concerns aimed at me: 8: 2559:"article of faith beyond scientific dispute" 2080:is that how you got all wet too, wetman:)? 3017:way out of line with the commonly accepted 2756:"As a side note, I'm okay with mentioning 2050:By the degree to which they are well known 982:the question here. This page is about the 2696:As a side note, I'm okay with mentioning 1835:so many people believe in it, don't we?" 1796:I think you are beginning to understand " 2099:by date of composition of the known text 851:of a historical account, rather than an 2053:By the degree of detail in the account 269:A quoted source is a credible source. 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 1243:what? western ecclesial scientists?) 7: 240:3/8ths of my usual weight and yours? 2072:on them! Don't forget that part! -- 1298:, it is really not the issue here. 1059:discussing the different theories. 434:trimmed or referenced as seen fit. 357:Black Sea#Ryan-Pitman Deluge Theory 2659:In response to Ungtss's concerns: 1627:) the myths. For this, we link to 24: 696:I reverted the editions added by 1575:"free from religious sentiment." 777:this issue about the copyright. 351:I agree, there's duplication at 29: 2651:of this encyclopedia big time. 1971:is among the oldest accounts. 1635:, and possibly other articles. 1488:next issue -- this paragraph: 703:. I also don't think edits by 1: 2097:The straightforward order is 1160:okay, let's do this carefully 3206:the text to which i object: 668:supports one OR the other. 406:and link to that from here. 2869:find me the religious bias. 2843:background, wikify, copivio 895:I would have to agree with 3452: 3376:16:54, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC) 3121:includes a uniformitarian 2691:Christian Scholar's Review 2540:10:30, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC) 2499:10:30, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC) 2279:of this article, we have: 2143:13:44, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC) 1917:historical origins section 1457:13:51, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC) 1437:02:22, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC) 1157:16:06, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC) 1102:14:31, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC) 772:00:39, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC) 733:00:27, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC) 545:09:45, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC) 502:09:45, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC) 323:05:12, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC) 3413:09:56, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC) 3308:00:54, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC) 3300:16:18, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC) 3289:09:55, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC) 3238:00:06, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC) 3230:13:39, 16 Dec 2004 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14 Dec 2004 (UTC) 2251:01:47, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC) 2225:14:29, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC) 2152:14:14, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC) 2132:13:27, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC) 2114:08:54, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC) 2084:05:00, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC) 2064:02:39, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC) 2004:14:49, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1984:10:30, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1944:21:48, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1912:00:02, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1872:17:22, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1859:17:22, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1843:17:22, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1767:16:13, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1748:16:13, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1729:16:13, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1709:16:13, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1659:15:41, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1591:14:38, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1566:13:04, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1531:11:13, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1467:14:10, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1417:20:56, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1398:19:50, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1366:07:36, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1342:19:44, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1328:17:45, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1279:17:16, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1251:17:16, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1237:17:16, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1223:17:16, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1196:16:14, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1188:16:12, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1181:16:12, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1174:16:12, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1167:16:12, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1133:15:54, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1122:14:48, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1082:19:24, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1041:12:58, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) 999:12:30, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 967:04:24, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 950:02:33, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 928:02:05, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 883:01:26, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 859:01:23, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 804:01:09, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 789:00:50, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 719:23:43, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC) 672:00:33, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 626:00:19, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC) 582:23:57, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC) 529:11:40, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC) 468:17:14, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC) 438:16:40, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC) 422:16:00, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC) 410:15:29, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC) 371:08:12, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC) 305:10:51, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC) 285:22:24, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC) 244:09:29, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC) 237:08:55, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC) 216:23:12, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC) 155:20:13, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC) 132:07:30, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC) 108:09:42, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC) 2283:Sumerian myth, ca. 2000 978:that's exactly what is 946:i think we're good:). 404:Black Sea deluge theory 365:Black Sea deluge theory 1629:deluge (prehistorical) 3338:potential solutions: 2589:Roman Catholic Church 2437:First Vatican Council 1602:ok, I try once more: 1484:commentary on genesis 1053:Great Flood (Genesis) 42:of past discussions. 3203:objectionable text: 1229:scientific dispute. 698:User:128.135.207.253 392:Deluge (prehistoric) 299:Deluge (prehistoric) 3070:Ungtss's concerns: 2015:now about the order 1093:I did one of those 549:Sounds interesting 342:Immanuel Velikovsky 2472:ok, your article. 1961:Sumerian king list 1839:history we have. 1625:are identical with 1542:deluge (mythology) 80:Historical Deluges 3412: 3288: 3190: 3132:Philip J. Rayment 3035: 3019:is necessarily a 2980: 2864: 2802: 2607: 2484: 2452: 2398: 2355:Philip J. Rayment 2345: 2305: 2249:Philip J. Rayment 2216: 2188:. I believe that 2130:Philip J. Rayment 2113: 2038:Philip J. Rayment 1983: 1903: 1817: 1658: 1565: 1365: 1310: 1271: 1121: 1071: 1039:Philip J. Rayment 998: 557:order of accounts 536:Other Flood Myths 380:Good idea. -- Hu 210:Crane (mythology) 149:list of disasters 124:disappeared from 77: 76: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3443: 3404: 3280: 3182: 3027: 2972: 2856: 2794: 2625:front and center 2599: 2476: 2444: 2390: 2337: 2297: 2208: 2105: 1975: 1895: 1809: 1650: 1557: 1357: 1302: 1275:sounds good:). 1263: 1113: 1063: 990: 359:and now here at 63: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3451: 3450: 3446: 3445: 3444: 3442: 3441: 3440: 3328: 3256:ancient text. 3163: 2871: 2845: 2712: 2627: 2561: 2505: 2364: 2276: 2268: 2172:" have to say " 2017: 1919: 1486: 1377: 1091: 1089:Origins section 765: 694: 559: 538: 481: 253: 82: 59: 30: 22: 21: 20: 18:Talk:Flood myth 12: 11: 5: 3449: 3447: 3439: 3438: 3437: 3436: 3435: 3434: 3427: 3426: 3425: 3421: 3395: 3394: 3393: 3392: 3385: 3367:pages and the 3355: 3354: 3347: 3346: 3345: 3342: 3336: 3327: 3326:listen, fellas 3324: 3323: 3322: 3321: 3320: 3319: 3318: 3317: 3316: 3274: 3272: 3271: 3264: 3261: 3252: 3251: 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2321: 2309: 2291: 2290: 2287: 2284: 2272: 2264: 2259: 2258: 2257: 2256: 2255: 2254: 2253: 2252: 2233: 2232: 2231: 2230: 2229: 2228: 2227: 2226: 2156: 2154: 2153: 2136: 2135: 2134: 2133: 2127: 2123: 2116: 2115: 2095: 2086: 2085: 2066: 2065: 2057: 2056: 2055: 2054: 2051: 2048: 2047:Alphabetically 2034: 2016: 2013: 2012: 2011: 2010: 2009: 2008: 2007: 2006: 2005: 1990: 1989: 1988: 1987: 1986: 1985: 1948: 1947: 1946: 1945: 1938: 1935: 1932: 1918: 1915: 1914: 1913: 1886: 1885: 1884: 1883: 1882: 1881: 1880: 1879: 1878: 1877: 1876: 1875: 1874: 1873: 1862: 1861: 1860: 1846: 1845: 1844: 1794: 1791: 1773: 1771: 1770: 1769: 1768: 1757: 1756: 1752: 1751: 1750: 1749: 1738: 1737: 1733: 1732: 1731: 1730: 1721: 1720: 1713: 1712: 1711: 1710: 1702: 1701: 1691: 1690: 1689: 1688: 1687: 1686: 1685: 1684: 1679: 1678: 1665: 1664: 1663: 1662: 1661: 1660: 1645: 1642: 1638: 1637: 1636: 1617: 1613: 1606: 1595: 1594: 1593: 1592: 1584: 1580: 1576: 1570: 1569: 1568: 1567: 1535: 1534: 1533: 1532: 1525: 1513: 1510: 1507: 1495: 1494: 1485: 1482: 1481: 1480: 1479: 1478: 1477: 1476: 1475: 1474: 1473: 1472: 1471: 1470: 1469: 1468: 1421: 1420: 1419: 1418: 1412: 1409: 1406: 1402: 1399: 1376: 1375:Next question. 1373: 1372: 1371: 1370: 1369: 1368: 1367: 1346: 1345: 1344: 1343: 1329: 1322: 1319: 1316: 1291: 1290: 1289: 1288: 1287: 1286: 1285: 1284: 1283: 1282: 1281: 1280: 1258: 1254: 1253: 1252: 1240: 1239: 1238: 1226: 1225: 1224: 1204: 1203: 1202: 1201: 1200: 1199: 1198: 1197: 1189: 1182: 1175: 1168: 1161: 1137: 1136: 1135: 1134: 1124: 1123: 1105: 1090: 1087: 1086: 1085: 1084: 1083: 1049: 1048: 1047: 1046: 1045: 1044: 1043: 1042: 1027: 1026: 1025: 1024: 1023: 1022: 1021: 1020: 1005: 1004: 1003: 1002: 1001: 1000: 971: 970: 969: 968: 952: 951: 934: 933: 932: 931: 930: 929: 893: 892: 891: 890: 889: 888: 887: 886: 885: 884: 867: 866: 865: 864: 863: 862: 861: 860: 837: 836: 835: 834: 833: 832: 831: 830: 810: 809: 808: 807: 806: 805: 790: 764: 761: 759: 757: 756: 755: 754: 753: 752: 751: 750: 720: 693: 690: 682: 681: 680: 679: 678: 677: 676: 675: 674: 673: 656: 655: 654: 653: 652: 651: 650: 649: 634: 633: 632: 631: 630: 629: 628: 627: 599: 598: 597: 596: 593: 590: 584: 583: 558: 555: 554: 553: 537: 534: 533: 532: 531: 530: 512: 511: 480: 477: 476: 475: 474: 473: 472: 471: 470: 469: 444: 443: 442: 441: 440: 439: 426: 425: 424: 423: 412: 411: 384: 383: 382: 381: 375: 374: 373: 372: 346: 345: 309: 308: 307: 306: 288: 287: 286: 281:There you go. 279: 252: 249: 248: 247: 246: 245: 238: 222: 220: 219: 218: 217: 194: 193: 192: 163: 162: 161: 160: 159: 158: 157: 156: 138: 137: 136: 135: 134: 133: 112: 111: 110: 109: 81: 78: 75: 74: 69: 64: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3448: 3432: 3428: 3422: 3418: 3417: 3415: 3414: 3411: 3409: 3403: 3399: 3398: 3397: 3396: 3390: 3386: 3383: 3378: 3377: 3375: 3370: 3369:Flood geology 3366: 3362: 3357: 3356: 3352: 3348: 3343: 3340: 3339: 3337: 3334: 3333: 3332: 3325: 3314: 3310: 3309: 3307: 3302: 3301: 3299: 3294: 3293: 3292: 3291: 3290: 3287: 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581: 576: 575: 574: 572: 567: 565: 556: 552: 548: 547: 546: 544: 535: 528: 525:of the myth. 524: 520: 516: 515: 514: 513: 510: 505: 504: 503: 501: 497: 493: 489: 485: 478: 467: 463: 460: 459: 458: 457: 456: 455: 454: 453: 452: 450: 437: 432: 431: 430: 429: 428: 427: 421: 416: 415: 414: 413: 409: 405: 401: 400: 399: 397: 393: 387: 379: 378: 377: 376: 370: 366: 362: 358: 354: 350: 349: 348: 347: 343: 338: 334: 333: 332: 330: 324: 322: 316: 314: 304: 300: 296: 295: 293: 289: 284: 280: 278: 275: 274: 272: 268: 267: 266: 264: 258: 257: 250: 243: 239: 236: 232: 231: 230: 229: 228: 226: 215: 211: 207: 204:and you have 203: 199: 198:Splish Splash 195: 190: 186: 182: 181: 179: 175: 171: 167: 166: 165: 164: 154: 150: 146: 145: 144: 143: 142: 141: 140: 139: 131: 127: 122: 118: 117: 116: 115: 114: 113: 107: 102: 98: 94: 93: 92: 91: 90: 88: 79: 73: 70: 68: 65: 62: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 3407: 3329: 3283: 3273: 3205: 3202: 3194: 3185: 3168: 3164: 3150:your view? 3142: 3126: 3122: 3113: 3101: 3092: 3091: 3082: 3081: 3071: 3069: 3057: 3044: 3030: 3011: 3006: 3004: 2975: 2957:weasel edits 2951: 2935: 2923: 2906: 2893: 2872: 2859: 2846: 2797: 2787: 2773: 2757: 2755: 2743: 2729: 2713: 2697: 2690: 2686: 2664: 2658: 2628: 2602: 2592: 2562: 2536:that naive. 2506: 2493: 2479: 2447: 2432: 2393: 2382: 2378: 2365: 2340: 2308: 2300: 2292: 2277: 2269: 2260: 2243: 2211: 2155: 2137: 2108: 2098: 2092:even in text 2091: 2070:water-stains 2069: 2067: 2028: 2026: 2018: 1978: 1968: 1964: 1956: 1920: 1898: 1888: 1887: 1852:about him." 1849: 1832: 1812: 1801: 1786: 1782: 1772: 1697: 1666: 1653: 1624: 1621:gave rise to 1620: 1609: 1560: 1550: 1546: 1540:the article 1496: 1487: 1429: 1378: 1360: 1305: 1292: 1266: 1116: 1104: 1094: 1092: 1066: 1050: 993: 983: 979: 935: 894: 852: 848: 766: 758: 695: 692:recent edits 683: 600: 568: 560: 539: 522: 518: 498: 494: 490: 486: 482: 461: 445: 388: 385: 363:. 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