Talk:French wine - Knowledge

1183:

vine. But it's hardly a prominent grape. It was simply a way of echoing Agne27's "to-do"-list. You can call it "other regions" or you can make a level 2 heading for all of them. I'm not trying to be in the make an upscale anything. Regarding the Trend-discussion, we should move it to the history-section as "recent history" or something. And if we decide to keep it, we should keep an eye on it, as it's an area open to change (obviously). And if someone's read the newest rant from some critic (and someone will), they might want to put that in there. Reminds me of a line once written on Chateau Petrus, that Parker now found Penfold's Grange to be a superiour wine.--

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often accompanies with a promotion of some other type of wine. There are also written in an extremely sweeping assumptive language as if the editor knows what a large population wants or needs. The more I delve into this, the more I assume a vested interest by the editor(s) involved. It seems that there are few editors present in Knowledge that care enough about French wine to promote an unbiased viewpoint, so it seems these edits have been allowed to infiltrate almost every level. I appeal to the editor(s) in question to define their motivation to further a pretty bald bias. --

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Spain) and competes with Italy for the position of having the world's largest wine production. The history of French wine goes back to the 6th century BCE, with many of France's regions dating their wine-making history to Roman times. The wines produced today range from expensive high-end wines sold internationally, to more modest wines usually only seen within France.

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quality and moderation now, and buy 750ml bottles, as people are going away from Soda, they redevelop the taste and pleasure of wines, after some time, a good idea is moving to drinking water after leaving sugar-filled soda drinks, and then to wine, and see the results on their skin appearance, weight and drinking pleasure. --

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producers have benefited in recent years from the increased demand and prices for some of the prestige wines from Burgundy and Bordeaux, the French wine industry as a whole has suffered from a decline in domestic consumption as well as growing competition from both the New World and other European countries.

1369:.. does not, in this context, mean "at the estate", but "at the cooperative". In a few cases the grapes will be vinified separately and the wine bottled under the name of the grower's 'chateau', but most growers simply sell their grapes to the cooperative (getting paid by quantity and sugar content). 2045:

ONIVINS doesn't exist anymore. This governlment agency has been merged with others to form, first, VINIFLHOR, then FranceAgriMer. It has never been an association of vintners, but a government agency, whose mission is to control the application of French laws about vineyard planting and quality, to

1942:

I'm growing pretty tired of the obvious vandalism that permeates all the France-related articles. If you tiresome, whining Americans don't have something better to do than to vandalise wikipedian pages please just sod off! I removed the links, because both of them was very critical towards the French

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France is the source of many grape varieties (such as Cabernet Sauvignon, Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Sauvignon Blanc and Syrah) that are now planted throughout the world, as well as several wine-making practices and styles of wine that are copied and imitated in other producing countries. Although some

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problem is touched upon in your original assessment. Tomas e doesn't agree with this "selection" where we (you and I) emphazises a small group of regions and, well neglects the rest. To me, emphazising the big six makes sense. It doesn't make sense to equalize all regions in, say USA, then why should

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I was thinking about the referencing of the page. I'm looking into a rewrite of the "big 6+" section to expand them slightly, and came to think of the referencing of those sections. How do we reference on summaries that are throughly referenced in their proper articles? Do I find new (my own) sources

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article already. But I agree with your assessment that the lead needs some reworking. While it should include a brief summary of history about France's first vineyards and monumental events like phylloxera, at the bare minimum the lead should include comments on where France ranks in world production

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It is my view that much of French wine is infected with a negative POV. There is much talk of the problems facing French wine here and elsewhere which are very real and germane. However, not only are the problems listed in a much larger volume compared to any other type of information, but they are

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BTW- tasters at The St. Catharines Wine Tasting of 2005 were all Canadian and included writers for Canadian wine magazines, professors and students at the local University, and 8 members of the Ontario wine industry(!). Nothing against Canadian wine, but this trumpeting of the results of this (minor)

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OK, well that's one vote! I'll swap them over and people can always add in any small points that they feel are missing (for example it doesn't tackle the food issue). Other than that I think it's got about the right level of introductory detail - more info is there in the main part of the article of

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I note the article as a whole is already the topic of some discussion, but particularly with some recent changes, the lead is getting very unwieldy (I note someone's just tagged it as too long) and also probably a little too exuberant in saying how great French wine is and in making generalisations,

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Hectoliter is the standard measure for larger quantities of wine. Almost all wine statistics is reported in hl (rather than liter or m), so it's the unit that facilitates comparison across countries and sources. Feel free to add the same figure in additional measures (the number of bottles have been

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Having browsed around the French Wine entries in Knowledge, I have to say that in general, the representation of French wine here is in a shambles. Far from wishing only to complain, I plan on adding what I can. There's certainly a lot to be done. Is anyone else interested in rallying a concerted

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for example, although those figures are from 1998 and show Italy just slightly ahead and Italian production decining faster than French. I've heard mentioned that France produces the most 'quality' wine in the world, whatever that means, presumably wine over a certain base price threshold. Maybe the

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Two concepts central to higher end French wines are the notion of “terroir”, which links the style of the wines to the specific locations where the grapes are grown and the wine is made, and the Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée (AOC) system. Appellation rules closely define which grape varieties and

1463:

This paragraph in "Trends" is highly misleading: "The result has been a continuing wine glut, often called the wine lake. This has led to the distillation of wine into industrial alcohol as well as a government program to pay farmers to pull up their grape vines through vine pull schemes. A large

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I've made some edits, added a few sources and a picture et al. - However, I think the article lacks some technical data, such as amount of wine produced, area under vines and so on and so forth. Is there some tempelate we can borrow from somewhere, that we can institute on more pages (italian wine,

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Well, I don't really see the need for grouping the regions into "quality classes" in the overview article. The description of each region and the history section will make it obvious that Bordeaux has been traded for long, that Champagne is the world's most noted sparkling wine and so on. But we do

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Then call it something else. I may be wrong, but I don't see any of those regions as particularily prominent. They have a history, repeat history, of producing bulk wine. Not wine of prominence. And while the regions may be large, that hardly constitutes prominence. Arien is the worlds most planted

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that you can label Languedoc-Roussillon (by far the largest region, and arguably the one where most new things have happened over the last decade or two) and South-West (parts of which had a quality reputation centuries before Bordeaux) as "less prominent" without being very POV. To me, that's more

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My geography is a bit sketchy, but I seem to remember that Paris is somewhere inland on the Seine. However, I was surprised to see on the wine map that it is now a huge island off the West coast of France. On a serious note it seems unnecessary as Paris doesn't itself produce wine that the 'island'

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French wine is produced in several regions throughout France on over 800,000 hectares (over 2 million acres) of vineyards. In a typical year between 50 and 60 million hectolitres of wine is produced, or some 7 to 8 billion bottles. France has the world's second-largest total vineyard area (behind

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The only significant section that I think is missing is something commenting on the role of wine in French culture. This is touched upon in the lead but there is no where else in the article where it is given more extensive treatment. It would be a tricky section to write, and one that needs rock

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is a tricky part. With the short 1-3 line sections, it looks pretty bad. But at the same time, this is a section that could easily overwhelm the article. I mentioned in my Feb assessment that I think the "Big Six" should have at least a strong paragraph worth of content and I still think that is

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I'm an American, which is apparently a dangerous thing to be on this page, but I notice that the production estimates are 50-60 million hectoliters. To me, this would sound better as 5-6 gigaliters or 5-6 billion liters. 50-60 million hectoliters just sounds odd. Are hectoliters commonly used to

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I've done some of the things listed (VdP, Wine regions), though a cleanup and expansion may be needed. Regarding the "trend" section: Is it really needed? Why not delete it all together? After all, from what I read, the "trend" is very alternating, sometimes prominent wine personalities declares

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Good thoughts, although I think that if everything in the list was fixed, it would reasonably be a GA. The trends section could probably be split between the history section and a new "commercial aspects" section, but here more than for many other parts, extensive referencing is needed. Not just

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Apparently, the French wine industry was saved by importing California vines that were resistant to Phylloxera , which is native to North America. The Wik article "Great French Wine Blight" (which does not have a French page)pretty much supports this, naming Texas as the source of the savior

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Anyway, is the wine consumption decreasing in Latin Europe? That sounds misleading. In the past in here (northern portugal) people bought 5L wine bottles. In recent years, it is a whole world apart, it is trendy and healthier than drinking soda drinks filled with sugar, people search for better

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Perhaps "trends" was a badly chosen term; what I meant was "developments of the last few decades" as distinct from "history over several centuries". Things like decreasing domestic consumption, increased new world competition, vineyard restructuring, improvement in southern France, branding and

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section needs significant referencing and a little NPOV revision. My comments from Feb still have some relevance as much more content could be added. It may be worth to start the section off talking about the different styles (sparkling, fortified, etc) and then create a sub-header about grape

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it be so in France. However Tomas e has a valid point. So unless we can reach some sort of agreement, I think we should go with the way it looks now. The "culture" thingy will be difficult, but I'll look into it. I'll cross out each paragraph as I finish (everyone is welcome to join in).--

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The "summary" history section is a little disjointed and needs to be fleshed out a little more. It certainly doesn't need to include everything, especially now that we have a splinter history article, but it probably needs about 2 full paragraphs in order to give a broad overview of the

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I wonder about our current statistic that American importation of wine from France dropped 50% in 2003. I had previously read that this "boycott" was largely a fabrication of anti-French individuals like Bill O'Reilly and that there was little or no discernable impact on the

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I must say that I'm surprised to see Sotheby having such a weak coverage of Languedoc-Roussillon and Sud-Ouest! To me, that seems like taking a bit outdated view on French wine. Other figures to consider could be production volume, economic volume, number of appellations...

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This is the current caption to one of the photos in the article: "French wines are usually made to accompany food." It seems a rather sweeping (and fairly false) statement. Should it be changed? I think it should be changed. But I don't have the wikinerve to change it...

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eg with phrases like "the world leader regarding not only quantity but also quality", "many other countries find inspiration in the french system", "French wine plays an important role in French identity and pride" etc. Plus isn't it standard for the lead to start "

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Negative POV, indeed: "...it's becoming increasingly difficult for French producers to compete internationally, and in traditional French fashion, they are beginning to surrender." Perhaps the article would be better off without this cheap crack at the French.

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on

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part of this glut is caused by the re-emergence of Languedoc wine." The wine glut existed 20 years ago and the wine pull-up scheme was dropped almost a decade ago. That the wine glut would be due to "the re-emergence of Languedoc wine" is simply false.

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Thanks for the explanation, I didn't know that. In that case, I think it's fine. I suppose we could put "(~1.4 billion US gallons)" after the figure, but I don't think it's a requirement. It's just as hard to visualize 1.4B gallons as it is to visualize

1606:. As interesting as the wines of Jura and Savoie are, there is no balanced encyclopedic reason that they should be devoted equal space to Burgundy or the Loire Valley. I think our coverage should be on par with what is found in reliable sources like 837:

I agree. It is infected and attempts to promote some wines. This occurs in several articles. Are grape varieties that important for the consumer? In here the trend is the wine region followed by brand. And most wines mix different grape varieties.

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Climate & Geography. Some type of summary about major features like rivers, Massif Central, Mistral winds etc and the varying influences of continental, maritime and Mediterranean climates. Brief summary on different soil types in the major

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Wine styles. Currently it is merged into a grape variety section. Ideally this should probably be split out into its own section and go into some summary about the particular sparkling, fortified, botrytized wines. Maybe also a brief touch on

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I'm looking to give this article another go. It seems to have stalled despite being the wine-drive on Wikiproject Wine. However, I'd like it if someone (Agne?) would review his list of 18 february 2008 (above). Nice to have a to-do-list. Any

1017:? :-) On a more serious note, the magnification of the Paris area, set to the left of the French mainland is obviously quite irrelevant to a map of French wine regions. I replaced it with another, much less cluttered and more stylized map. 1422:

calculated for the benefit of the general reader), but please do not change the basic figure, since it's actually quoted from the source given. I assume that the historical background is that most wine barrels are a couple of hl in size (

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measure quanitites of wine? I know that hecto- and deca- don't get much love, but I propose changing the phrasing here. Anyway, I'm off to McDonald's to whine, sod-off, and look for France on the map of Asia on the back of the placemat.

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By the way, I disagree strongly with your classification of several regions into a bunch of "less prominent regions". You could probably put Jura and Savoy under such a label because of their very limited production, but there is

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has been put up for deletion. A potential outcome could be a request to merge the relevant information into this article so any input (or improvements) that could be given from the editors of this article would be appreciated.

1426:= 225 l, for example), so it has stuck as the most convenient metric (if not basic SI) measure at winery level. Statistics for grapes harvest is usually in tonnes, while vineyards are in hectares (Europe) or acres (e.g. US). 1867:

I am going to rewrite this, giving a footnote for the two very important details that I am changing. If anyone thinks that I (and the website I cite) have got this wrong, by all means correct me and cite another source!

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Further to the above I thought I'd post a proposed draft here rather than plonk it in the article immediately. Grateful for any thoughts - I've based it mostly on previous versions, but just stripped quite a bit out -

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Well, the statement about what "au domaine" means is wrong as well, as far as I can say... But what this article really needs are not just corrected statements, but reliably sourced statements. Feel free to help...

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is ..."? Currently it does more of less cover all the key points (as below), so I guess it just needs some copyediting and the removal of both some of the detail/wordiness and some of the broader generalisations -

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of the world's #1 wine country. IMHO, wine and food pairing is an even more difficult subject than description of wine flavours if you want to avoid POV. But perhaps there are better sources than I'm aware of.

973:(sort of like the current third paragraph but it is a little inaccurate since Italy surpasses Frances in some years) and a overview of the major wine regions as well as a brief touch on the concept of terroir. 1068:

Languedoc & Provence) should probably have at least a paragraph summary leading into their main articles. It is hard to truly be an overview of "French wine" without providing some summary about these

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needed. Some of the smaller regions like Jura, Corsica and Southwest France should maybe grouped into a sub heading titled "Other regions". I'm also wondering if it is worthwhile to make another splinter

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The history section is missing ALOT of important detail. It is not bad considering that until a few weeks ago, this article didn't have a history section at all. In the long run there problem should be a

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Although it now says that bottled at the domaine means it was bottled where it was grown (or at a co-op), and means it is the product of a single vineyard - isn't that still a little restrictive? --

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Regarding the "Wine in french culture"-part, wouldn't it be useful to get one from the France-project to look into that? Most of my material on Wine only deals with that subject superficially.

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Production levels, history, prestige (and the fact that the main grape varieties are now planted throughout the world and the key styles are imitated and copied. Or over-imitated if you will)

1050:. While a lot of wine articles have the opposite problem of not having enough of a summary, this one actually has too much and several details that are not found in the rest of the article. 1336:

is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Knowledge policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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winemaking practices are allowed in each of France's several hundred geographically defined appellations, which can cover entire regions, individual villages or even specific vineyards.

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The translation "domaine" = "field" was just a simple mistake: no need to cite a source for changing that, I think. No one can imagine that wines are bottled "at the field", surely.

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section with its one line should either be eliminated or expanded. There is some benefit in keeping the content and expanding it to include some of the major regional organizations.

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french wine "dead" or "struggeling" sometimes it's the latest craze and have been "reborn" and so on. I see a hornets nest that just begs for a lot of PoV and all that follows.--

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varieties and their association with major region. If we have a reliable, updated source-maybe a listing of the top 10 grape varieties by plantings would be helpful as well.

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So. That's what you call thinking? The most vandalized articles in this so called encyclopedia are American and it's done by whining Europeans which includes you British.

1936:"the typical French person drank local wine and, although proud of France's reputation for making some of the world's outstanding wines, knew relatively little about them" 1061:

There could be more details and summary about the Vin de Pays system, especially since those wines are developing more of an emerging presence on the world's wine market.

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Dear BridgeBurner- Please see the message I left on your talk page several days ago. In the meantime, I'm workiing on a general wine competitions page. Best regards.

2178: 245: 953:. While the history is quite interesting, the first 9 lines of the article (in my browser) are only about history; they would belong better in a history section. 927: 1064:

Wine Regions-This area has certainly been improved in the last few weeks but I think the "Big 6" regions (Bordeaux, Loire, Burgundy, Alsace, Champagne, Rhone---

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I'm the one who tagged the lead as too long. It's still on the long side, but more importantly, your version is much better in terms of neutrality. Thanks. ~

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section needs referencing. It could use some expansion but I'm wondering if that would be too much content. We may want to think about creating a

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Just about all of them! Any pictures of wine regions, grape varieties or wine would be useful. In particular we need wine region maps that can be

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where major regions are giving significantly more coverage than minor ones. Take for example Sotheby's with the breakdown of pages per regions.

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section should probably be incorporated into the history section, at least as a sub-section. It also needs a good POV scrubbing and referencing.

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section could do a little better summary than a few lines. It maybe best to merge it into the intro on the Wine region section as a segway.

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article with this section serving as a summary. In the meantime though, a B class article would have a more well developed history section.

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is omitted. I don't have access to the stats, but it's worth a better look, and the figures being dated, as they will evolve over time.

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Recent issues (eg decline in domestic consumption, greater competition in world markets, split between the elite producers and the rest)

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section seems out of place. II t could be either expanded to a more full fledged section or maybe incorporated as a sub-section of the

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why it seems false to you? to me it sounds quite trivial. But the article is written for a global audience, for instance Asians.

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Whether it is due to changing tastes or some other factor(s), the addition of RS material on this would improve the article.

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Trends section seems awfully OR. Ideally it should be referencing and merged into the history section as part of "Modern day"

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because it could be OR, it's POV-prone territory where some edits may want to either engage in France-bashing or defend the

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It should be possible to keep to a very brief neutral/factual paragraph on each, and leave it a manageable size overall? --

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This article has certainly improved significantly since I last reviewed it. Here are some thoughts on future improvement.

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That section has zero citations already, so any claims it makes are suspicious. Any citations at all would improve it. ~

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The page says: L'Office national interprofessionnel des vins, abbreviated ONIVINS, is a French association of vintners.

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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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Referencing. While not horrendous, there are a couple section and several important claims that need referencing.

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I'm quite unhappy with the way the article starts right now. This is an article on French wine, not about the

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solid references, but if it could be done it would be a very educational and important part of the article.

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produced the most wine in the world, often in the context of it being underappreciated outside Italy! See

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which could go more indepth about each regions and scrap this entire section in lieu a summary style.

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is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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or do I rely on the ones in the proper article (and don't source at all in theses segments)?--

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Two MAJOR topics on the relationship of French wine to the culture and cuisine of France.

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I'm surprise there is not already a history section, heck I'm surprise we don't have a

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can be removed from the map. If of course someone has moved Paris please ignore this.

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BTW- Our wine industry in Canada has been doing great in recent competitions. See the

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produce socio-economic data on grapevine sector and to support experimentations.

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What about Bergerac? It's Knowledge entry says it's a wine-growing region.

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section needs some referencing but overall seems to cover the topic well.

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The Lead section could use some editorial discretion in accordance to

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Sure, I'll have some free time tomorrow and I'll take another look.

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Here are some thoughts on ways to get this article up to a B class:

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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Problems in the French Wine Industry

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effort to make the entries on French Wine full and informative? --

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Thanks Agne. I agree with most of your thoughts. However the

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Knowledge article constitutes fair use. In addition to the

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I'm thinking about to start vandalising American pages...

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changing labelling practices, more corporate influence...

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This is an English-language entry so one should use

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Ottawa Wine Tasting of 2005 article has been deleted

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Fair use rationale for Image:Logo-vigneron Thmb.jpg

266: 688: 296:, a project which is currently considered to be 1943:wine industry and is an ill disguised POV... 928:L'Office national interprofessionnel des vins 8: 888:Relevant French wine article up for deletion 1465: 1033:Thoughts on getting this article up to a B 590:Unreferenced biographies of living persons 311: 263: 152: 47: 1533:section since it is intimately connected. 770:tasting needs to be kept in perspective. 575:Cleanup lists of wine-related articles: 1198:need better sourcing for this article! 154: 49: 19: 2179:Low-importance Food and drink articles 2094:reasons for declining wine consumption 2077:http://arlindo-correia.com/060904.html 1472:2A01:CB04:110:C800:1CAD:92D0:15A9:C2BB 1334:Knowledge:Fair use rationale guideline 687:. Add to the Wikiquote page for wine: 1974:http://en.wikipedia.org/Petit_Manseng 1602:Well I think we should be mindful of 1531:Quality levels and appellation system 1496:Quality levels and appellation system 7: 1972:This is incomplete: for example the 1168:thinking than encyclopedic writing. 656:Nominations for top level importance 292:This article is within the scope of 230:Knowledge:WikiProject Food and drink 206:This article is within the scope of 95:This article is within the scope of 2184:WikiProject Food and drink articles 1220:american wine, german wine etc.)?-- 926:section is from the merged article 743:St. Catharines Wine Tasting of 2005 363:Here are some tasks you can do for 233:Template:WikiProject Food and drink 38:It is of interest to the following 1939:Why is this phrase in wikipedia ? 877:I've removed the biased vandalism. 14: 793:most wine in bottles rather than 1332:. 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