Talk:Murder of Ahmaud Arbery/Archive 8

2586:"Reactions" with subsection including "commentators, and the public" and includes the statement of the uninvolved former attorney David A. French. I don't believe that the Atlanta Jornal-Constitution and its writer would have published all the Sadow quotes if they didn't find them useful and compelling, or thought them unfairly prejudicial. In any event, for NPOV other expert viewpoints are necessary and give the reader differing perspectives. Although prior criminal convictions have been thus far excluded by the judge, acts during the time in question are still open or there would not be a trial. What you are stating is a prejudgement, which an editor should not represent. The Sadow op-ed entry was previously reviewed and left as is by an administrator, excepting only removal of blockquote indents. Except for one part of the quotes with which you now personally disagree, you left the entry. The point is to reflect differing perspectives on an important set of occurances; there must be balance, regardless of our personal viewpoints. For those previously unaware, the now debated edit is: 1213:: It says "The investigator testified that none of the three had called 9-1-1". I understand this as meaning that Arbery wasn't reported to the police before the shooting and that no 911 calls were made by any of the defendants until after the shooting. This is demonstrably false. The police were called around the time when the McMichaels started the chase and were on their way while the chase was happening. As the article states correctly, they arrive right after the shooting so they have to have been called several minutes before. Second, Greg McMichael was on the phone with the police while the shooting happened. Several 911 calls have been published in connection with the shooting. I think the article should reflect that. 3053: 1726: 1969: 155: 3695:, Great, thank you. Sounds good. Also, thank you for adding the clarifying refs. In the "Reactions to the verdict" section, I had added a source that quoted Georgia Senator Jon Ossoff as saying, "A historic civil rights mobilization was necessary for the killers to face prosecution at all. The circumstances of Ahmaud Arbery's murder and the struggle required to secure a prosecution demonstrate profoundly the urgency of reforms to make equal justice real in America." Source: 2625:

committed any crime, and thus to introduce an uninvolved third party commentator's uninformed speculation of "criminality" is quite simply right out. Your claim that Sadow is an "expert" is laughable - there is no evidence proffered that Sadow is an "expert" on this case, or has examined the evidence at all whatsoever. Your proposed addition has been rejected by two separate editors; your option now is to open an RFC in search of more opinions.

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have not read every Knowledge article so don't know if there are non-fatal shooting articles and, if so, that is not to say there won't be some. Regardless, such matter is a strawman argument in my mind because, as said, shooting is imprecise. Killing is precise. As an encyclopedia English Knowledge needs English language precision and internal consistency. "Killing" is recognizabile, natural, precise, concise and consistent.

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shot and killed a teenager who jumped over a fence at night in the backyard of a house that the officer suspected was burglarized, though the officer was “reasonably sure” the suspect was unarmed. “The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable,” said the 6-3 decision, written by Justice Byron White.

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acts", noting that the McMichaels were unaware of Arbery's past at the time of the killing. He justified his ruling by stating that the "character of the victim is neither relevant nor admissible in a murder trial", and that such evidence might also mislead the jury into thinking that Arbery's killing was "somehow justified" on potential "future dangerousness". Source that was used:

1877: 1838: 2894: 2808: 566:: The same proposed renaming was considered just last month and was not adopted, so we should not need to go through this all again so soon. The nominator provided definitions of "kill", but not definitions of "killing", which is the word proposed to be used here. The word "killing" typically implies deliberate intent – see these 532:. "Killing" implies untimely death at the hands of someone, which is exactly what this situation entails. "Murder" implies unjustifiable/wrongful. Clearly Arbery was killed, as he should still be alive. He wasn't merely "shot" as it is useful to clarify in the page title that he did not survive the shooting, improving precision. – 2019:

at the time was part of a recreational pursuit in and of its own. To describe Arbery as "out while jogging" in the lead implies that he was doing according to the phrase "out for a jog". Therefore the lead should remove this and related comments and refer to them instead (in more specific terms) in the relevant paragraph.

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say one cannot be "accidentally killed". Then there's the difference between intent to shoot and intent to kill. Say an officer loads a gun with a non-lethal (rubber) bullet and shoots it at someone, but that bullet hits the person in the eye and kills them. The officer intended to shoot, but they didn't intend to kill. (

210:. It is better to be precise. If we want to be more descriptive, we could title it the "Shooting and Killing of Ahmaud Arbery", but this is too wordy; "Killing" is the best fit. We have to deal with reality: Ahmaud Arbery was killed by a gun. We must not downplay the seriousness of the matter by the mere title "Shooting". 628:. Killing does not imply fault, only agency. "Death" is passive, "killing" is active and "murder" is intentional. Killing is the right term here, factually accurate, neutral and 100% BLP consistent, while "death" seems like Bowdlerisation, deferring too much to the feels of the accused - a really bad look right now. 2568:

actions are - as the judge in the case has noted - not on trial here, and never will be on trial, because those two men killed him. Just because Arbery is dead does not permit us to offer uneducated speculation or accusations about his actions. BDP clearly applies here. Sorry that you don't get to smear a dead man.

2196:. As discussed, your edit removed the unchallenged factual statements that Arbery was unarmed and jogging when he was confronted and killed - these facts are clearly relevant to the article. On the contrary, there is no allegation that Arbery "robbed" or "hurt" anyone in this incident. You're welcome to ask for a 3186:

Ahmaud Marquez Arbery, aged 25, lifelong resident of Brunswick, nicknamed "Maud" or "Quez", graduated from Brunswick High School in 2012 where he had been on the football team. He attended South Georgia Technical College during fall 2012 and spring 2013 to train for a career as an electrician. Family

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Jogging as a hobby is usually meant to mean running at a low or medium pace for the purpose of increasing physical fitness. It is true that when he came into confrontation with the suspects mentioned in the article he was "jogging" as in running a medium pace but there is no evidence that his running

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purely on consistency grounds. It does appear that "Shooting of X" titles are inconsistent with our other articles where a death is involved. We don't have "Strangulation of X" or "Knifing of X" articles; they are always "Killing of X" or "Murder of X". It would appear logical that the "Shooting of

3539:

Agreed that it's strange not to provide some personal details on the victim and the murderers, if only to give the most basic work/education/origin information. This is currently one of the most high-profile court cases in the US, we should aim to be inclusive and informative. Some details about the

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and friends said he frequently jogged for exercise in and around his neighborhood. The defence attempted to introduce evidence of Arbery's repeated history of using jogging as a cover for petty crime, but the court judged this inadmissible as the McMichaels were not aware of these at the time. LINK:

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Because a claim is mentioned in the article that he was wearing 'Timberland boots' and the claim is denied without citation. I think some citation should be added to the denial. I'm referring to this line: "According to an analyst from the Middle East Media Research Institute they claimed Arbery was

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In 1985 in Tennessee v. Garner,the Supreme Court struck down a Tennessee statute that allowed a police officer to “use all the necessary means to effect the arrest" of an individual whom the officer suspected was fleeing or forcibly resisting detention. The case involved a Memphis police officer who

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Firstly, this sequence of events starts at a very out of context moment, AFTER the pursuit had already begun. The full sequence of events were that Arbery arrived and went into someone else's house, was running (or jogging) away from that house after 911 was called on him for being inside of it, and

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uses "Killing". COMMONNAME has not been determined and is debatable. I have seen both killing and shooting. Knowledge is based on reliable sources-what are the sources for killing connoting unjustifiable or wrongful death? If so, they would suffer the same contradiction in proper usage in English. I

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Is use of this term an ENGVAR thing? I’m from the northeast and have never heard of a cellphone referred to as such, but maybe it’s more common around the area the murder happened. Took me a couple of rereadings to understand what was meant by the term. If maybe a more common term isn’t substituted

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I disagree with the idea that we should be including opinionated quotes about a criminal case from uninvolved lawyers, and have removed them; this is particularly because the quote implies criminality in the actions of a man who was shot and killed by two people now on trial for murder, a man whose

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As court proceedings can become quite complicated, it may be helpful to add some short table or overview with the more important RESULTS. I don't mind the details and time stamps, these are fine, but I reason in favour of a table to see a quick overview of what the court found (once the proceedings

1123:

A person accidentally drops a loaded gun and it goes off; the bullet strikes someone else, causing their death. To me, that person was accidentally killed, or killed by an accidental discharge. That doesn't sound wrong in any way (I'm American), but apparently those three British dictionaries would

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historic civil rights mobilization necessary for prosecution led to changes in Georgia legislation: a new bipartisan hate crime bill was passed, and the state's citizen's arrest law was changed in a unanimous vote. There are sources already in the article that can be used or new ones can be added.

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Intro should be something like, "The case is notable for the amount of fear of a racist trial outcome, a fear founded in the fact that the McMichaels were not arrested until 74 days after the killing. The case is also notable for leading to the repeal of Georgia's flawed citizen's arrest law." But

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opining that the judge presiding over the state trial of the McMichaels and Bryan was certain to undercut the defense case because "everyone from the public, to the prosecutor, to the judge can only accept one verdict, otherwise they’ll be castigated", further stating his opinion that the innocent

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Knowledge articles are based on information from reliable sources and not opinions of editors or original research. It is clear from the intro why the case has been a national story for over a year. However, I agree it might be good to say something like the following at the end of the intro: The

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Reliable sources can't include original research, such as the one you linked to above. In any case, in the Trial section under "Pretrial rulings", it already says that Judge Walmsley made the following pre-trial ruling: He ruled that the defense could not introduce evidence of Arbery's prior "bad

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I agree with Praxidicae that the lead already makes clear what occurred: Arbery was chased by armed men, who confronted him, cut him off (trapped him), and fatally shot him, and who are now set to stand trial for murder. I'm not sure what exactly you think is unclear. If you have a proposal, make

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In any case, your statement preceding it was incorrect. At no point in the lead (including the second paragraph) is the total sequence of events I described made clear. You mentioned reliable sources, but they give a much better summary of events than this page's current lead, hence my comments.

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is not in reference to criminality but only indicates that the person took the act intentionally and not accidentally, as in a car accident. There is no doubt that they intended to kill him. A court will determine if their intent was criminal. That does not discount the fact that they shot him at

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the naming of articles titled "Shooting" where there is a death since there are so many recent RMs regarding those articles. Although other articles may use "Shooting" the subject article is one of the recent ones to go through an RM in the middle of the discussion on changing, thus I don't think

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Yes and that may be the commonname, but its not relevant here. If you want to talk about precision and consistency, then probably every article about a death should just use "Death of" as that is always precise and correct. I don't know if we have to go to that extreme, but there is certainly too

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Specifically the wiki speaks of him not having drugs in his system (autopsy section). This is not accurate. He did have Marijuana in his system. (That will not be introduced in court as it's irrelevant and the murderers had no idea it was in his system.) But to say specifically he did NOT is

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There are, apparently, around 32,000 attorneys in Georgia, and I'm pretty sure most of them have an opinion on the Arbery case, it's just that they didn't feel the need to share it with the world (Sadow does appear to think himself something of a celebrity lawyer, so perhaps that's part of it).

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that we include it. I think the balance of policy tips decidedly in favor of protecting a dead person who cannot defend himself, namely because he was gunned down in the street by two white men who were allegedly attempting to unlawfully detain and/or kidnap him. There is no evidence that Arbery

2585:

I disagree. Your initial objection was to "puffery". If other quotes need to be added from the AJC article, so be it; however, the unique perspective of attorney Sadow should be included in full as he is a recognized Georgia criminal attorney, and as a NPOV matter for the section. The section is

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for the title change. Please reconsider this based at least in part on the proposed flowchart to the right for article titles which makes perfect sense. It will be reasonable for consistency. When person a dies as a result of human action, regardless of intent or criminal responsibility, it is a

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I was thinking of paraphrasing/referencing the first part of this quote to go with mention in the lede about Georgia's legislative reforms, but what you've written in the intro is fine. The first sentence in that paragraph already says, "The local authorities' handling of the case, whereby the

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To Praxidicae, the current wording of the sentence makes it sound like Arbery was shot in the back while jogging down the street. Stating that it was during a confrontation makes it clear that's not what happened. Saying there was a confrontation doesn't imply Arbery started the confrontation.

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I didn't know I needed your permission to improve the article. And relevent facts include that in 2018, Arbery was diagnosed with schizoeffective disorder. He told doctors he had delusions that sometimes commanded him to rob and hurt people. Are you seeing why this should be in the lead now?

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It looks like this piece already touches on many of the points the defence has tried to raise and the judge has rejected - Arbery's felony record for theft, felony record for unlawful gun possession on school grounds, his being on probation when shot, and his non-compliance with prescribed

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removes, without explanation, the relevant and unchallenged factual statements that Arbery was unarmed and jogging when he was confronted and fatally shot. Additionally, the characterization of his activity as "caught" is, at best, an opinion which cannot be presented as fact in the lede.

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I also tend to agree that the lead is fine as is, but a word of advice, MWise12: aspirational statements of what the article should say or convey are fine, but not particularly useful. More helpful would be concrete suggestions or drafts reflecting the changes you'd like to see. Cheers.

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So you are disputing the idea that he was moving around at a faster than walking pace? Even if he had ulterior motives (for which I see little evidence), "jogging" strikes me as an appropriate description here. I think you're loading this particular term with too much meaning. Cheers.

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How come there is no section on Arbery's personal details? I was hoping to find some more background on the victim via the wikipedia article but there seems to be none? Is that intentional? There are newspaper articles that give such information but I thought I would find it here first.

880:- per the flowchart, per consistency, per "killing" doesn't mean justified or unjustified, per "shooting" not being clear as to whether the person died...basically per nom, the other support arguments above, and the usual arguments in support of moving articles to "killing". 914:– Ahmaud Arbery was not only shot but also killed. That is the most notable aspect of the subject and should be clearly indicated in the title. The incident was clearly ruled a homicide and the article should indicate that prominently. A new consistency can be established. 1206:: I don't understand why there are 4 counts of felony murder. We have 3 defendants. Is one of them charged with two counts? Why? I also don't understand why there are only 2 counts of aggravated assault and not 3 counts (autopsy says Arbery was hit by all 3 shots fired). 2597:

jogger scenario "is the only narrative the public can be told because of public perception of what happened", and "t’s unthinkable there might be another narrative of criminal behavior of a young Black man because that’s what the public cannot hear at this time."

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Knowledge does not work on the basis of finding a "middle ground" between the truth and a smear campaign. The article already discusses the killers' defense's attempt to have Arbery's mental health brought up at trial, and discusses the judge's ruling that

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The "jogging" claim was spurious from the beginning and remains so as we have video showing Arbery took off sprinting from the house he was in when people saw him in it. If the court later determines that he wasn't "jogging" this page must reflect so.

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case, though, "killing" is correct under both American and British dictionaries, because there is no question that the shooter intended to kill. It may or may not be adjudicated a murder, but it's a killing under any definition of the word, literally.

693:, and populated it with all instances that I could readily find. So far, this includes eight titles with the word "shooting" in the title (of which six are "Shooting of" titles), and five titles using a variation of "Attempted assassination of". 3523:

It seems strange not to have any section on background/main bio details of the victim, and probably the accused(s)? It is already a detailed article, but in my experience, most of these kinds of articles do provide the core background details?

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it is literally in the same lead you are talking about. Arbery had been pursued and confronted by three ] residents, Travis McMichael and his father Gregory, who were armed and driving a pickup truck,<ref name=RojasFaussetKovaleski /:

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I agree that there should be some background on the victim. I came to this article hoping to read personal details of Ahmad Arbury. Perhaps not even so detailed as his resume would have been, but simple facts such as where he was born.

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The majority of RS say that Arbery's parents and lawyers claim he was jogging, not that he factually was jogging. The jogging claim being factual, and not a claim by Arbery's parents and legal team, is a minority of the RS's viewpoints.

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Note that it was the The Atlanta Journal-Constitution that called on Sadow and they determined that his comments should be put in their publication. The journalist Bill Torpy who wrote the article has been with the paper for 31 years.

839:– per consistency with similarly titled articles. Killing does not imply that one has been convicted of murder. He was killed and his killers are facing murder charges. Saying "Shooting" is ambiguous as mentioned in the image above. 578:

definitions. Knowledge actually has a very consistent naming convention to use "Shooting of" for non-murder articles about shootings (nearly all of which are about fatal shootings). For example, see recent RM consensus outcomes for

2729: 611:, which were both created in just the last few days, and one of which is undergoing current RM discussion. Knowledge article titles should have a measured and formal tone, not sensationalistic headlines driven by recent outrage. — 1158:- There's been a homicide, so the article is either a "Killing of" or "Murder of" article. There's been no conviction, so it's a "Killing of" article for now, will need to be changed to "Murder of" if a conviction is recorded. 596: 359: 354:. The above proposal should be submitted in the form of a mass "Shooting of..." → "Killing of..." nomination, rather than singling out this main title header while leaving all other "Shooting of..." headers unchanged. As for 2481:

it details Arbery's past contacts with law enforcement, crime problems at the house being built, 911 calls, background on the father, background on the son, and the political gerrymandering that occurred after the killing.

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However, not every assassination is done with a firearm, most shootings are not considered assassinations and most non-fatal shootings are not considered to be assassination attempts. For example, the currently active

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ok. I'm unenthusiastic about including the epithet, but not really opposed. Between yourself, the OP, and the strong argument based in policy to include the full text of the epithet, I think there's consensus here.

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has connotations that it doesn't have to others. This already complex case (noting for example the connections of one of the accused to the police department) has now become highly topical following the recent

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X" title should be reserved for articles, if we have any, where the incident was non-fatal, and the rest moved. I further note that when you put "Shooting of" into the search box, the first ten results are

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agreed. To be clear I didn't mean "this doesn't merit discussion", just that I didn't think an RFC was warranted at this point. Sources seem to be split on whether they expurgate the quote. As discussed at

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I've restored the longstanding content (present since May 2020? November 2020?). I found the part on Gregory too important to remove. If there were a part on Gregory, why not basic details on the others?

2062: 600: 3332:“Mr. Bryan said that after the shooting took place before police arrival, while Mr. Arbery was on the ground, that he heard Travis McMichael make the statement: fucking nigger,” Dial said in testimony. 3717:- it's not acceptable if Ossoff says it, he's a politician and may very well have exaggerated. If a reliable source said it (instead of quoting another person), it would be acceptable though. Cheers. 2719: 1379:

The fact that his legal team specifically chose the word jogging, and there's a militant effort by editors here to keep the word "jogging" there as if it's fact, shows that this isn't a small issue.

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Additional evidence was presented by the prosecutor to support the murder charges, including a statement to the GBI by William Bryan that Travis McMichael said "f---ing n---er" as Arbery lay dying.

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What I'm saying is that the majority of RS do not say, in their own voice as if it's fact, that Arbery was jogging. They say, accurately, that these were claims by Arbery's parents and legal team.

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are done; of course right now this is an open case, so we have to wait, but I mention this in particular because many people are probably interested in what the court will come to determine).

200:"More than 1,000 people have been killed by the armed forces; The earthquake killed 62 people; Heroin can kill". The medical examiner has ruled homicide. Also note: the title of the article, 2927:

I know it's semi-protected, but could someone put a link to a picture of the running shoes? Here's a link to a video of the white Nikes that Arbery was wearing at the time, per the coroner.

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THEN the McMichaels chased him. The entire order of events as they're currently presented in the lead's first paragraph are devoid of context, let alone the problems with them despite that.

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it is covered in the second paragraph. I know some are desperate to find ways to justify extrajudicial killings but we summarize what sources say. Not armchair detectives on YouTube videos.

228:- The word "killing" comes with it the connotation of unjustifiable/wrongful death (or in the minds of some is equivalent to murder). The image flowchart is quite flawed. For example, do we 1357:

Indeed and I'd further caution MWise12 about attempting to change the narrative by making it sound like Arbery confronted the men who killed him when that is not waht the sources say.

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Regardless, as NBSB says, we can't give UNDUE prominence to a random attorney's claim that insinuates criminality on the part of Arbery, it's simply not in line with BDP and it's

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I suggest you retract your suggestions about my "motives" or I'll notify an admin that you're attacking an editor personally over legitimate concerns with the wording of a page.

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McMichaels were not arrested until 74 days after the killing, after the video went viral, sparked nation-wide criticism and debates on racial profiling in the United States."

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The court ruled this inadmissible as the McMichaels did not necessarily know this at the time of the incident, but it is surely important to the reader's picture of the case.

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smear campaign? yeah that's not going to help you any. The AJC said he had a specific condition and that it manifested in ways that match the description of his behavior.

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much variation in titles and too much effort being expended arguing in repetitious RMs for the same articles. Getting back to this article, it sounds from your last line

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https://cf-images.us-east-1.prod.boltdns.net/v1/static/6009760719001/2eb0ba6d-11dd-475e-b4fd-39de4174412a/866a7bb1-b72d-4b70-9385-5ac7ebae73e8/1280x720/match/image.jpg

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The article is beating around the bush. For someone who doesn't already know the case, what is the big deal about Ahmaud Arbery? Like why is it a national story?

135: 3791: 3368:, we shouldn't be the ones to obscure offensive content, but the situation is a bit muddier when some sources do bowdlerize and some don't. What do you think? 3259:

and the source does not contain the quote “Travis McMichael said "f---ing n---er"” either in a redcated or unredacted form, how should the sentence beginning

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Under this section, Waycross Judicial Circuit District Attorney, you changed Jackie Johnson's last name to Jackson. Please correct this it's very confusing

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I've cleaned up and revised the biography section of Arbery. I've cited recent news sources, which are also archived, for anyone who wants to learn more.

2819:, when you want to request something be changed on a Knowledge page, if you can provide a link to a source, that makes it easier for other editors to help. 748: 2041:

The attached BBC source says “ Ahmaud Arbery was jogging in February when he was confronted by Gregory and Travis McMichael”. No need to change anything.

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Change "he was wearing running shoes" at the end to "he was barefooted" as this has been confirmed by both the defense and prosecution today at trial.

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In the aftermath of the killing, Georgia enacted hate crimes legislation in June 2020, then repealed and replaced its citizen's arrest law in May 2021

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In summary, the debated content reflects NPOV as including an expert's apparently unique perspective regarding which a reader should not be deprived.

822:. Already been hashed before. Shooting is more informative. Furthermore, most Knowledge articles on shootings have fatalities and are intentional.-- 3814: 3705: 3642: 3227: 306:

Death is not as precise because death can be due to many factors including, for example, drowning. Killing is more direct and defined in English (

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In all fairness, English Knowledge does have a very small number of articles, probably five or fewer, delineating non-fatal shootings, such as

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I read it. I see nothing which supports your claim. If you disagree, quote the specific passage of the source you believe supports the claim.

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The current wording of events in the lead makes it sound as if Arbery was shot in the back, or in a driveby, when that is not what happened.

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as clear, concise, correct, and commonsensical. However this page is part of a large organizational issue on Knowledge and I would encourage

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The defence entered documentation citing specific examples of where Ahmaud Arbery had previously used jogging as a cover for petty crime:

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I said some people. Of which there are many, as evidenced by the less reliable sources reporting on this. No one said anything about you.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

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This hasn't had previous discussion and doesn't need an RFC. The source includes the redacted quote and our article matches the source.

2684: 1901: 804: 588: 467: 385: 2880: 2004: 3849: 3810: 3799: 3714: 3701: 3654: 3638: 3223: 3206: 3041: 1818: 1768: 592: 456:, thus providing some strength to the argument that "Shooting of..." main headers should be reserved solely for non-fatal shootings. — 446: 3268: 782:(Jesse Hartnett is the name of the non-fatally shot police officer, not of his non-fatally shot assailant) as well as one in the UK ( 3786:

For reference 193, the link is incorrect. It links to an article from the Guardian rather than to USA Today. Change the link from “

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why does the article feature a high school foto rather than a more recent mugshot from when Arbery was arrested? Should be changed!

1641:

If listing the whole sequence of events comes off as "victim blaming" to you, I think that says a lot about the sequence of events.

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If the court determines this and RS report on it, then it will change. Not before just because an internet video detective says so.

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Look at that beautiful, straightforward logic. Look how easy the title question is resolved if we form consensus for this approach.

863:- Consistency with other articles is generally helpful, and no significant reason for avoiding this consistency has been presented. 752: 3292: 2724: 2592: 968: 2794: 1975:

it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a

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He was shot at and he died, hence he was killed. If the trial finds that he was killed unjustifiably, it will become murder.

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https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/11/24/what-malice-murder-charges-murder-ahmaud-arbery-explained/8747459002/”

2230:"not an improvement" is just your pov and your not wanting to admit his mental health issues are relevent frankly verge on 1258:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Do you have anything that disputes that doesn't come from a right leaning rag mag or is this just more Fox News nonsense?

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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It's very simple. I want you to copy and paste the specific section of the source which states, as a fact, that Arbery

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analyzes bodycam footage and other public information, and then provides legal commentary with appropriate citations.

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A good analysis of events that led to Ahmaud Arbery killing and subsequent events as of this writing is available at

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and your inability to maintain neutrality or even attempt to find a middle ground actually might be worth reporting.

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In very widely publicized cases, English Knowledge has separate articles for the victim and for the victim's death —

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Steven H. Sadow, a nationally recognized Georgia criminal defense attorney, was quoted in an op-ed by Bill Torpy in

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who, as in the case of Trayvon Martin or Ahmaud Arbery, was fatally shot not by a police officer, but by a civilian.

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https://fitnessfreak360.com/ahmaud-arbery-biography-wiki-age-career-killing-of-ahmaud-arbery-who-was-ahmaud-arbery/

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has been mentioned several times above; the RM to move it to "Shooting of" has now been closed as "not moved." See

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The AJC said he had a specific condition and that it manifested in ways that match the description of his behavior

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pointing solely to articles following the current convention is a reason not to move this article to "Killing".

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important. Inversely, perhaps your being wed to "shooting" is a wish to downplay the event? Let's try to avoid

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https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/ahmaud-arbery-murder-trial-day-8-gbi-medical-examiner-explains-gunshot-wounds

2418:"This source says something, but I refuse to quote the part of the source which says it." Cute. But actually, 2030: 1714: 755:

is an effort to clarify that specific main title header, taking into account that, presently, the simple form

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The source cited for this statement attributes this act to William Bryan and his truck, not the McMichaels.

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Done, it is now merged (with another ref that had the correct url but different ref name) as reference 36.

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no, we only see the main point at the end with Jon Ossoff's comment. Say what needs to be said, up front!

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wielding a hammer and wearing Timberland boots when he was shot dead; Arbery was wearing running shoes."

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If you can't do that, then you're admitting the source doesn't say what you desperately want it to say.

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That information should stay in the Trial section, and not be added to the Persons Involved section.

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Your characterizations are unsupported, refuted by evidence, and violate BDP, and have been redacted.

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least three times with intent to kill. Whether it was justified is not at issue here for this RM. ---

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on the issue. What you are not free to do is unilaterally edit-war your proposal into the article.

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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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What do others think? Upon reflection, I think that the material on Gregory McMichael is crucial.

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had a specific condition and that it manifested in ways that match the description of his behavior

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That so-called "context" seems to mostly be an attempt to blame the victim here. That won't fly.

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2) While being pursued, the McMichaels got out of their vehicles and there was a confrontation.

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have articles about non-fatal shootings? The present title is 100% accurate and COMMONNAME. --

3861: 3831: 3697:"Ahmaud Arbery verdict represents 'progress' toward 'true justice,' civil rights leaders say." 3157: 2911: 2409: 2374: 2310: 2279: 2239: 2176: 2137: 1646: 1623: 1601: 1535: 1503: 1474: 1403: 1384: 1348: 1332: 1302: 1270: 993: 823: 662: 140: 2696: 789:

This very small number of English Knowledge articles about non-fatal shootings also includes

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The fact that you said "Not armchair detectives on YouTube videos." implies it was about me.

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protests etc.. Whatever happens now, this is not likely to be the last RM for this article.

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If the court case later determines Arbery was not "jogging", this page must reflect that.

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The claim is not "denied without citation". Read the cite at the end of that paragraph.

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in, maybe link the first usage of it to clear up any confusion? Just spitballing here.

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/24/ahmaud-arbery-murder-georgia-reaction”

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Your edits have been reverted because they are not improvements, and frankly verge on

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It's dishonest to use an old picture which does not reflect his criminal tendencies.

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As far as Ronald Reagan and other public figures are concerned, the more-appropriate

636: 533: 3153: 2902: 2503: 2405: 2370: 2306: 2291:- please quote the specific passage of the source you believe supports this claim. 2275: 2235: 2197: 2172: 2133: 1642: 1619: 1597: 1531: 1499: 1470: 1399: 1380: 1374: 1344: 1328: 1298: 1266: 1022: 989: 658: 418: 595:. Also see the very consistent naming pattern of the large number of articles in 3916: 3436: 3421: 3384: 3369: 3329: 3323: 3308: 3084: 2251:

the character of the victim is neither relevant nor admissible in a murder trial

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https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/18/us/ahmaud-arbery-surveillance-timeline/index.html

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

3389:- 100% no need for RFC, and censoring just confuses, so I'm against censoring. 575: 2467: 1960:

Need to add that they pursued him because Arbery had trespassed at the house.

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In fact, to the extent that I can determine, English Knowledge has only four

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Details of previous allegations of using jogging as a cover for petty theft

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https://www.glynncounty.org/DocumentCenter/View/69162/114-Notice-of-Intent

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https://www.glynncounty.org/DocumentCenter/View/69162/114-Notice-of-Intent

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Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in the United States

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Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in the United States

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of the shooting of black people by US police officers - except this one.

310:. You are misinterpreting the intent of my statement as to seriousness. 2104: 158:

A proposed flowchart for article titles currently under discussion at

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A self-published YouTube video from an anonymous account cannot be a

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Category:Attempted assassinations of Presidents of the United States

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headers describing non-fatal police shootings — three in the U.S. (

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Prosecutors describe use of racist slur as Ahmaud Arbery lay dying

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If they are found guilty change this to Murder of Ahmaud Arbery--

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The user who began this thread had been blocked as a sockpuppet.

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Talk:Shooting of Yoshihiro Hattori#Requested move 16 October 2018

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Talk:Killing of Lizzie O'Neill § Requested move 4 September 2020

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Talk:Killing of Lizzie O'Neill § Requested move 4 September 2020

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That is funny because in English law, there are such things as "

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Arbery's mum angry at people using her son's name to make money

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Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in Canada

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Why? Every reader already knows what running shoes look like.

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I don't know what you want me to say. Try reading it again?

1803:"with the McMichaels striking Arbery with their pickup truck" 308:

cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing))

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historic civil rights mobilization necessary for prosecution

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Talk:Shooting of Greg Gunn § Requested move 3 September 2020

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Talk:Shooting of Greg Gunn § Requested move 3 September 2020

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is a redirect}. There was a successful nomination regarding

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cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing)

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Knowledge talk:Requested moves#"Shooting of" or "Killing of"

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to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.

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Talk:Killing of Rayshard Brooks#Requested move 14 June 2020

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Talk:Killing of Rayshard Brooks#Requested move 14 June 2020

2720:"OPINION: Arbery trial to be a battle of competing truths" 753:

Talk:Shooting of Nikola Štedul#Requested move 23 June 2020

358:, that header is currently inconsistent per entries under 2305:

You didn't event check my links before you deleted them?

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Because the article is about his killing not his arrest.

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here, and therefore this is not actually a useful link.

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He was killed, and Netoholic is wrong about it implying

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Information from the video may help with this article.

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an act of killing, especially of one animal by another.

171: 3441:- thanks. I'm going to remove the RFC from the title. 2470:. The user who post the YouTube videos under the name 2257:, I believe that's sufficient discussion of the issue. 1466:

3) This confrontation is when the shooting happened.

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A killing is an act of deliberately killing a person

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and I believe a title should reflect this. Accuracy

284:"We must not downplay the seriousness of the matter" 190:

to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of

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Additional evidence was presented by the prosecutor

1709:He was recorded breaking into a construction site. 1010:

The act or action of causing death, as of a person.

3083:Verdicts just returned, page move should proceed. 2422:evidence you're misrepresenting the source. GLHF. 689:: Further to the discussion above, I have created 2779:wrong. We could strike it or make it accurate. 1779:And? This was a summary execution by a civilian. 1457:The lead needs to make these three things clear; 2616:That something is published in the AJC makes it 1907:Semi-protected edit request on 11 September 2020 206:. "Shooting" is not the best title word because 3746:Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2021 3063:that support the change you want to be made. – 2996:Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2021 2760:timestamp mismatch; 16 October 2021 suggested ( 2835:Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2021 184:"her father was killed in a car crash"; noun: 1736:that support the change you want to be made. 8: 3137:That is our policy; and it will be done. -- 2260:As for "reporting" me? Good luck with that. 2147:I disagree that it belongs in the lede, and 2529: 2115:Can we add this in the reaction section -- 1669:Semi-protected edit request on 29 July 2020 1198:Number of counts and investigator testimony 198:to cause the death of (a person or animal). 3894: 3152:All three: Guilty. Rest in peace, Ahmaud. 2129:His condition is documented and relavent. 2111:https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-54055954 2065: 2020: 1880:You are invited to join the discussion at 1841:You are invited to join the discussion at 1808: 1758: 1439: 194:to make a person or other living thing die 109:The following is a closed discussion of a 2462:Good analysis of Arbery killing available 180:killing. Google Dictionary (kill): verb: 1002:American dictionaries define "killing": 749:Attempted assassination of Nikola Štedul 3794:so that it matches what is referenced. 3282: 2877:2600:1700:E901:6390:5CD7:6229:6E78:216C 2676: 2001:2A02:8388:1602:6D80:715F:7F61:13E7:2FA0 1442: 1211:Prosecution of the McMichaels and Bryan 1060:an act of killing somebody deliberately 1027:to deprive of life : cause the death of 979:: I think this is a line call. To some 932:Actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea. 24:Talk:Killing of Ahmaud Arbery/Archive 8 3796:2601:249:1580:A640:4DFB:E185:6044:F997 3658: 3331: 3038:2601:283:4880:B4E0:CC2B:F2C2:5BC9:659C 2757: 2753: 2743: 2527:medication, but it fails to note that 2384: 2288: 2250: 1815:2600:1700:79D0:66E0:6475:3F4:105A:1705 1765:2600:1700:6000:7A40:9079:18C0:340C:811 1077: 1068: 1059: 1044: 1037:the act of a person or thing that kill 1036: 1026: 1018: 1009: 737:Category:Failed assassination attempts 735:has existed since 2013 and its parent 529: 311: 283: 51:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3265:2601:1C0:5382:250:71F6:778A:2579:1404 1069:an occasion when a person is murdered 761:Fatal shooting of a non-public figure 175:– I believe this article should be 7: 1254:The following discussion is closed. 128:The result of the move request was: 661:to get consensus for wider change. 589:Talk:Shooting of Atatiana Jefferson 3238:How should the sentence beginning 2522:Other Defence Points Not Mentioned 772:Shooting of Abdullahi Omar Mohamed 593:Talk:Shooting of Yoshihiro Hattori 370:— is currently being discussed at 31: 3240:Additional evidence was presented 1187:The discussion above is closed. 248:Unjustifiable killing is murder. 3753: 3661:to the lede, but I'm unaware of 3118:If found guilty change to murder 3051: 3003: 2892: 2842: 2806: 2725:The Atlanta Journal-Constitution 2593:The Atlanta Journal-Constitution 1967: 1914: 1875: 1836: 1724: 1676: 1426:The discussion above is closed. 759:almost always turns out to mean 36: 3328:- the second source cited said 585:Talk:Shooting of Breonna Taylor 3889:"and had plans to re-enrolled" 1988:20:37, 11 September 2020 (UTC) 1956:18:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC) 286:that this is more a matter of 136:closed by non-admin page mover 1: 3927:03:43, 30 November 2021 (UTC) 3909:03:14, 30 November 2021 (UTC) 3883:02:08, 28 November 2021 (UTC) 3855:21:01, 27 November 2021 (UTC) 3819:09:02, 27 November 2021 (UTC) 3804:08:31, 27 November 2021 (UTC) 3736:06:16, 27 November 2021 (UTC) 3715:James James Morrison Morrison 3710:06:05, 27 November 2021 (UTC) 3684:05:31, 27 November 2021 (UTC) 3655:James James Morrison Morrison 3647:23:24, 26 November 2021 (UTC) 3619:10:49, 26 November 2021 (UTC) 3600:08:05, 25 November 2021 (UTC) 3577:02:52, 25 November 2021 (UTC) 3553:19:51, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 3534:17:20, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 3518:07:16, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 3491:19:35, 23 November 2021 (UTC) 3460:06:50, 26 November 2021 (UTC) 3430:06:32, 26 November 2021 (UTC) 3408:06:23, 26 November 2021 (UTC) 3378:06:21, 26 November 2021 (UTC) 3352:02:03, 26 November 2021 (UTC) 3317:19:59, 25 November 2021 (UTC) 3273:19:36, 25 November 2021 (UTC) 3246:The article currently reads: 3232:12:08, 25 November 2021 (UTC) 3211:11:10, 25 November 2021 (UTC) 3162:19:02, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 3148:07:07, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 3132:03:23, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 3112:18:56, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 3093:18:52, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 3073:21:13, 23 November 2021 (UTC) 3046:20:43, 23 November 2021 (UTC) 2990:05:47, 20 November 2021 (UTC) 2975:22:20, 19 November 2021 (UTC) 2959:00:18, 19 November 2021 (UTC) 2944:18:07, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 2432:21:25, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2414:21:21, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2400:21:18, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2379:21:17, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2329:21:15, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2315:21:13, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2301:21:08, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2284:21:04, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2270:20:59, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2244:20:51, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2214:20:37, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2181:20:32, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2162:20:23, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2142:20:20, 2 September 2021 (UTC) 2051:01:39, 25 December 2020 (UTC) 2035:00:12, 25 December 2020 (UTC) 2009:22:06, 23 December 2020 (UTC) 1902:19:07, 4 September 2020 (UTC) 1863:19:07, 4 September 2020 (UTC) 443:Shooting of Yoshihiro Hattori 3893:Grammar issue, please fix. 2917:12:56, 6 November 2021 (UTC) 2885:12:54, 5 November 2021 (UTC) 2829:12:37, 6 November 2021 (UTC) 2799:13:35, 5 November 2021 (UTC) 2693:U.S. News & World Report 2664:20:06, 19 October 2021 (UTC) 2649:09:48, 19 October 2021 (UTC) 2635:01:13, 19 October 2021 (UTC) 2611:23:40, 18 October 2021 (UTC) 2578:21:20, 18 October 2021 (UTC) 2557:14:19, 18 October 2021 (UTC) 2542:08:37, 18 October 2021 (UTC) 2255:is not a biography of Arbery 2189:on a talk page using colons. 2120:19:23, 25 January 2021 (UTC) 691:Category:Non-fatal shootings 581:Talk:Shooting of Sammy Yatim 530:unjustifiable/wrongful death 398:There is already a drive to 208:many shootings are not fatal 18:Talk:Murder of Ahmaud Arbery 3780:to reactivate your request. 3768:has been answered. Set the 3030:to reactivate your request. 3018:has been answered. Set the 2869:to reactivate your request. 2857:has been answered. Set the 1941:to reactivate your request. 1929:has been answered. Set the 1823:04:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC) 1797:22:49, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1703:to reactivate your request. 1691:has been answered. Set the 1651:17:29, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1637:17:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1628:17:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1606:17:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1591:17:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1571:17:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1540:17:08, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1522:17:04, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1508:17:03, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1494:17:01, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1479:16:58, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1449:22:00, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1408:16:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1389:16:48, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1367:16:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1353:16:44, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1337:16:40, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1322:16:37, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1307:16:35, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1291:16:30, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1275:16:30, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 1247:16:52, 27 August 2020 (UTC) 784:Shooting of Stephen Waldorf 368:Shooting of Rayshard Brooks 102:Requested move 21 June 2020 3944: 3295:February 10, 2021, at the 2096:13:51, 19 April 2021 (UTC) 2080:13:47, 19 April 2021 (UTC) 1773:00:22, 5 August 2020 (UTC) 894:Killing of Rayshard Brooks 780:Shooting of Jesse Hartnett 776:Shooting of Charles Kinsey 609:Killing of Andres Guardado 605:Killing of Rayshard Brooks 454:Shooting of Charles Kinsey 439:Death of Yoshihiro Hattori 431:Shooting of Trayvon Martin 364:Killing of Rayshard Brooks 362:and the proposed change — 356:Killing of Rayshard Brooks 264:Killing of Rayshard Brooks 203:Killing of Rayshard Brooks 3496:It was recently deleted. 3255:Knowledge is not censored 2479:The Case of Ahmaud Arbery 2468:The Case of Ahmaud Arbery 1746:20:07, 29 July 2020 (UTC) 1719:19:59, 29 July 2020 (UTC) 1225:22:30, 18 July 2020 (UTC) 1177:23:54, 28 June 2020 (UTC) 1168:22:31, 28 June 2020 (UTC) 1143:23:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC) 1126:This isn't a hypothetical 1119:21:27, 28 June 2020 (UTC) 1084:20:42, 28 June 2020 (UTC) 1019:the act of one that kills 998:20:08, 28 June 2020 (UTC) 972:19:09, 28 June 2020 (UTC) 952:18:58, 28 June 2020 (UTC) 905:17:02, 27 June 2020 (UTC) 885:16:58, 27 June 2020 (UTC) 873:01:59, 27 June 2020 (UTC) 856:00:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC) 832:07:59, 23 June 2020 (UTC) 809:06:41, 24 June 2020 (UTC) 745:Shooting of Nikola Štedul 727:03:39, 23 June 2020 (UTC) 709:18:38, 22 June 2020 (UTC) 682:17:50, 22 June 2020 (UTC) 642:17:41, 22 June 2020 (UTC) 621:03:35, 22 June 2020 (UTC) 559:22:58, 21 June 2020 (UTC) 542:19:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC) 521:17:06, 21 June 2020 (UTC) 496:17:31, 22 June 2020 (UTC) 472:18:31, 21 June 2020 (UTC) 435:Killing of Trayvon Martin 413:17:53, 21 June 2020 (UTC) 390:16:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC) 335:11:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC) 302:11:24, 21 June 2020 (UTC) 277:10:54, 21 June 2020 (UTC) 258:22:58, 21 June 2020 (UTC) 240:10:23, 21 June 2020 (UTC) 220:08:43, 21 June 2020 (UTC) 167:Shooting of Ahmaud Arbery 149:02:15, 29 June 2020 (UTC) 3016:Killing of Ahmaud Arbery 2855:Killing of Ahmaud Arbery 2620:to include; it does not 2516:12:19, 8 June 2021 (UTC) 2497:09:15, 8 June 2021 (UTC) 2387:relevant to his killing. 1927:Killing of Ahmaud Arbery 1752:Relevent Legal Precedent 1689:Killing of Ahmaud Arbery 1428:Please do not modify it. 1256:Please do not modify it. 1189:Please do not modify it. 192:. MacMillan Dictionary: 172:Killing of Ahmaud Arbery 116:Please do not modify it. 3766:Murder of Ahmaud Arbery 3540:victim can be found at 3079:Murder of Ahmaud Arbery 1460:1) Arbery was pursued. 1237:This is going nowhere. 791:Shooting of David Ortiz 739:has existed since 2007. 478:Shooting of David Ortiz 423:Killing of George Floyd 1052:British dictionaries: 350:per Netoholic and per 316:compared to a shooting 196:. Collins Dictionary: 163: 3846:Got a present for ya! 3098:I moved the page per 2404:What's in it for me? 157: 49:of past discussions. 2699:on 24 September 2020 2563:Op-ed quotes removed 2185:Please learn how to 2774:Drugs in the system 2627:NorthBySouthBaranof 2583:NorthBySouthBaranof 2570:NorthBySouthBaranof 2549:NorthBySouthBaranof 2508:NorthBySouthBaranof 2424:NorthBySouthBaranof 2392:NorthBySouthBaranof 2321:NorthBySouthBaranof 2293:NorthBySouthBaranof 2262:NorthBySouthBaranof 2206:NorthBySouthBaranof 2202:Request for comment 2154:NorthBySouthBaranof 2014:"Out while jogging" 1435:Wording of the lead 865:NorthBySouthBaranof 288:WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS 2732:on 17 October 2021 2689:lawyers.usnews.com 2603:Quaerens-veritatem 2253:. As this article 2187:thread discussions 1257: 986:Black Lives Matter 717:No Ronald Reagan? 655:Quaerens-veritatem 405:Quaerens-veritatem 327:Quaerens-veritatem 269:Quaerens-veritatem 212:Quaerens-veritatem 164: 3911: 3899:comment added by 3853: 3784: 3783: 3197:comment added by 3183:Suggested edits: 3034: 3033: 2873: 2872: 2785:comment added by 2685:"Steven H. Sadow" 2646:Black Kite (talk) 2082: 2070:comment added by 2037: 2025:comment added by 1994:Court proceedings 1979:if appropriate. — 1945: 1944: 1825: 1813:comment added by 1795: 1775: 1763:comment added by 1707: 1706: 1666: 1665: 1255: 1006:American Heritage 852: 807: 640: 518:Black Kite (talk) 470: 388: 139: 130:moved as proposed 99: 98: 61: 60: 55:current talk page 22:(Redirected from 3935: 3874: 3869: 3843: 3841: 3836: 3775: 3771: 3757: 3756: 3750: 3727: 3722: 3675: 3670: 3664: 3568: 3563: 3509: 3504: 3476:Personal details 3451: 3446: 3440: 3418: 3399: 3394: 3388: 3362: 3343: 3338: 3327: 3299: 3287: 3213: 3143: 3061:reliable sources 3055: 3054: 3025: 3021: 3007: 3006: 3000: 2914: 2910: 2908: 2900: 2896: 2895: 2864: 2860: 2846: 2845: 2839: 2814: 2810: 2809: 2801: 2766: 2765: 2759: 2755: 2751: 2749: 2741: 2739: 2737: 2728:. Archived from 2715: 2709: 2708: 2706: 2704: 2695:. Archived from 2681: 2532: 2531: 1986: 1971: 1970: 1936: 1932: 1918: 1917: 1911: 1894: 1888: 1879: 1878: 1855: 1849: 1840: 1839: 1785: 1734:reliable sources 1728: 1727: 1698: 1694: 1680: 1679: 1673: 1616: 1440: 1378: 1111: 1105: 1094:unlawful killing 1056:Oxford Learner's 1035:(Random House): 944: 938: 853: 850: 847: 843: 799: 769: 762: 758: 701: 675: 672: 669: 666: 657:to take this to 634: 488: 476:Also non-fatal: 462: 380: 188:Dictionary.com: 174: 133: 118: 85: 63: 62: 40: 39: 33: 27: 3943: 3942: 3938: 3937: 3936: 3934: 3933: 3932: 3931: 3925: 3915:Fixed, thanks. 3891: 3872: 3867: 3837: 3832: 3827: 3773: 3769: 3754: 3748: 3725: 3720: 3673: 3668: 3662: 3626: 3566: 3561: 3507: 3502: 3478: 3449: 3444: 3434: 3412: 3397: 3392: 3382: 3356: 3341: 3336: 3321: 3304: 3303: 3302: 3297:Wayback Machine 3288: 3284: 3244: 3192: 3172: 3139: 3120: 3081: 3059:please provide 3052: 3023: 3019: 3004: 2998: 2925: 2912: 2903: 2901: 2893: 2891: 2862: 2858: 2843: 2837: 2807: 2805: 2780: 2776: 2771: 2770: 2769: 2752: 2742: 2735: 2733: 2717: 2716: 2712: 2702: 2700: 2683: 2682: 2678: 2565: 2528: 2524: 2504:reliable source 2489:Jeffrey Walton 2472:Audit the Audit 2464: 2127: 2107: 2059: 2016: 1996: 1980: 1977:reliable source 1968: 1958: 1934: 1930: 1915: 1909: 1898:Coffeeandcrumbs 1892: 1886: 1876: 1873: 1859:Coffeeandcrumbs 1853: 1847: 1837: 1834: 1805: 1754: 1732:please provide 1725: 1696: 1692: 1677: 1671: 1610: 1586:your proposal. 1451: 1437: 1432: 1431: 1372: 1260: 1251: 1250: 1249: 1232: 1200: 1195: 1115:Coffeeandcrumbs 1109: 1103: 1015:Merriam-Webster 948:Coffeeandcrumbs 942: 936: 918:only indicates 849: 845: 841: 767: 760: 756: 695: 673: 670: 667: 664: 482: 314:is more serious 170: 114: 104: 81: 37: 29: 28: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3941: 3939: 3930: 3929: 3919: 3901:63.155.115.190 3890: 3887: 3886: 3885: 3826: 3823: 3822: 3821: 3782: 3781: 3758: 3747: 3744: 3743: 3742: 3741: 3740: 3739: 3738: 3693:Starship.paint 3687: 3686: 3650: 3649: 3625: 3622: 3607: 3606: 3605: 3604: 3603: 3602: 3582: 3581: 3580: 3579: 3521: 3520: 3477: 3474: 3473: 3472: 3471: 3470: 3469: 3468: 3467: 3466: 3465: 3464: 3463: 3462: 3415:Starship.paint 3359:Starship.paint 3301: 3300: 3281: 3280: 3276: 3243: 3236: 3235: 3234: 3171: 3168: 3167: 3166: 3165: 3164: 3119: 3116: 3115: 3114: 3080: 3077: 3076: 3075: 3032: 3031: 3008: 2997: 2994: 2993: 2992: 2962: 2961: 2924: 2921: 2920: 2919: 2871: 2870: 2847: 2836: 2833: 2832: 2831: 2775: 2772: 2768: 2767: 2754:|archive-date= 2710: 2675: 2674: 2670: 2669: 2668: 2667: 2666: 2637: 2599: 2598: 2564: 2561: 2560: 2559: 2523: 2520: 2519: 2518: 2463: 2460: 2459: 2458: 2457: 2456: 2455: 2454: 2453: 2452: 2451: 2450: 2449: 2448: 2447: 2446: 2445: 2444: 2443: 2442: 2441: 2440: 2439: 2438: 2437: 2436: 2435: 2434: 2388: 2348: 2347: 2346: 2345: 2344: 2343: 2342: 2341: 2340: 2339: 2338: 2337: 2336: 2335: 2334: 2333: 2332: 2331: 2258: 2232:BLP violations 2221: 2220: 2219: 2218: 2217: 2216: 2194:BLP violations 2190: 2165: 2164: 2126: 2123: 2106: 2103: 2099: 2098: 2072:185.125.224.20 2058: 2055: 2054: 2053: 2027:86.168.172.102 2015: 2012: 1995: 1992: 1991: 1990: 1946: 1943: 1942: 1919: 1908: 1905: 1872: 1868:Discussion at 1866: 1833: 1829:Discussion at 1827: 1804: 1801: 1800: 1799: 1753: 1750: 1749: 1748: 1711:72.183.184.103 1705: 1704: 1681: 1670: 1667: 1664: 1663: 1662: 1661: 1660: 1659: 1658: 1657: 1656: 1655: 1654: 1653: 1582: 1581: 1580: 1579: 1578: 1577: 1576: 1575: 1574: 1573: 1549: 1548: 1547: 1546: 1545: 1544: 1543: 1542: 1527: 1453: 1452: 1443: 1438: 1436: 1433: 1425: 1424: 1423: 1422: 1421: 1420: 1419: 1418: 1417: 1416: 1415: 1414: 1413: 1412: 1411: 1392: 1261: 1252: 1236: 1235: 1234: 1233: 1231: 1228: 1199: 1196: 1194: 1193: 1183: 1182: 1181: 1180: 1179: 1153: 1152: 1151: 1150: 1149: 1148: 1147: 1146: 1145: 1131: 1129: 1090:lawful killing 1071: 1062: 1050: 1049: 1048: 1033:Dictionary.com 1030: 1012: 974: 954: 909: 908: 907: 875: 858: 842:cookie monster 834: 816: 815: 814: 813: 812: 811: 787: 768:Shooting of... 764: 757:Shooting of... 740: 712: 711: 684: 651:Coffeeandcrubs 644: 623: 561: 544: 523: 505: 504: 503: 502: 501: 500: 499: 498: 450: 427:Trayvon Martin 393: 392: 344: 343: 342: 341: 340: 339: 338: 337: 260: 243: 242: 152: 126: 125: 111:requested move 105: 103: 100: 97: 96: 91: 86: 79: 74: 69: 59: 58: 41: 30: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3940: 3928: 3923: 3918: 3914: 3913: 3912: 3910: 3906: 3902: 3898: 3888: 3884: 3881: 3879: 3875: 3870: 3863: 3859: 3858: 3857: 3856: 3851: 3847: 3842: 3840: 3835: 3824: 3820: 3816: 3812: 3808: 3807: 3806: 3805: 3801: 3797: 3793: 3789: 3779: 3776:parameter to 3767: 3763: 3759: 3752: 3751: 3745: 3737: 3734: 3732: 3728: 3723: 3716: 3713: 3712: 3711: 3707: 3703: 3698: 3694: 3691: 3690: 3689: 3688: 3685: 3682: 3680: 3676: 3671: 3660: 3657:- I've added 3656: 3652: 3651: 3648: 3644: 3640: 3635: 3634: 3633: 3629: 3623: 3621: 3620: 3616: 3612: 3601: 3597: 3593: 3592:37.223.36.215 3588: 3587: 3586: 3585: 3584: 3583: 3578: 3575: 3573: 3569: 3564: 3556: 3555: 3554: 3550: 3546: 3543: 3538: 3537: 3536: 3535: 3531: 3527: 3526:78.18.245.212 3519: 3516: 3514: 3510: 3505: 3498: 3495: 3494: 3493: 3492: 3488: 3484: 3483:78.18.245.212 3475: 3461: 3458: 3456: 3452: 3447: 3438: 3433: 3432: 3431: 3427: 3423: 3416: 3411: 3410: 3409: 3406: 3404: 3400: 3395: 3386: 3381: 3380: 3379: 3375: 3371: 3367: 3366:WP:BOWDLERIZE 3360: 3355: 3354: 3353: 3350: 3348: 3344: 3339: 3333: 3330: 3325: 3320: 3319: 3318: 3314: 3310: 3306: 3305: 3298: 3294: 3291: 3286: 3283: 3279: 3275: 3274: 3270: 3266: 3262: 3258: 3256: 3251: 3247: 3241: 3237: 3233: 3229: 3225: 3221: 3216: 3215: 3214: 3212: 3208: 3204: 3200: 3196: 3190: 3184: 3181: 3178: 3177: 3169: 3163: 3159: 3155: 3151: 3150: 3149: 3146: 3144: 3142: 3136: 3135: 3134: 3133: 3129: 3125: 3117: 3113: 3109: 3105: 3101: 3097: 3096: 3095: 3094: 3090: 3086: 3078: 3074: 3070: 3066: 3062: 3058: 3050: 3049: 3048: 3047: 3043: 3039: 3029: 3026:parameter to 3017: 3013: 3009: 3002: 3001: 2995: 2991: 2987: 2983: 2979: 2978: 2977: 2976: 2972: 2968: 2960: 2956: 2952: 2948: 2947: 2946: 2945: 2941: 2937: 2933: 2932: 2928: 2923:Running shoes 2922: 2918: 2915: 2909: 2906: 2899: 2890: 2889: 2888: 2886: 2882: 2878: 2868: 2865:parameter to 2856: 2852: 2848: 2841: 2840: 2834: 2830: 2826: 2822: 2818: 2813: 2804: 2803: 2802: 2800: 2796: 2792: 2788: 2784: 2773: 2763: 2758:|archive-url= 2747: 2731: 2727: 2726: 2721: 2718:Torpy, Bill. 2714: 2711: 2698: 2694: 2690: 2686: 2680: 2677: 2673: 2665: 2661: 2657: 2652: 2651: 2650: 2647: 2643: 2638: 2636: 2632: 2628: 2623: 2619: 2615: 2614: 2613: 2612: 2608: 2604: 2595: 2594: 2589: 2588: 2587: 2584: 2580: 2579: 2575: 2571: 2562: 2558: 2554: 2550: 2546: 2545: 2544: 2543: 2539: 2535: 2521: 2517: 2513: 2509: 2505: 2501: 2500: 2499: 2498: 2494: 2490: 2486: 2483: 2480: 2475: 2473: 2469: 2461: 2433: 2429: 2425: 2421: 2417: 2416: 2415: 2411: 2407: 2403: 2402: 2401: 2397: 2393: 2389: 2386: 2382: 2381: 2380: 2376: 2372: 2368: 2367: 2366: 2365: 2364: 2363: 2362: 2361: 2360: 2359: 2358: 2357: 2356: 2355: 2354: 2353: 2352: 2351: 2350: 2349: 2330: 2326: 2322: 2318: 2317: 2316: 2312: 2308: 2304: 2303: 2302: 2298: 2294: 2290: 2287: 2286: 2285: 2281: 2277: 2273: 2272: 2271: 2267: 2263: 2259: 2256: 2252: 2247: 2246: 2245: 2241: 2237: 2233: 2229: 2228: 2227: 2226: 2225: 2224: 2223: 2222: 2215: 2211: 2207: 2203: 2199: 2198:third opinion 2195: 2191: 2188: 2184: 2183: 2182: 2178: 2174: 2169: 2168: 2167: 2166: 2163: 2159: 2155: 2150: 2146: 2145: 2144: 2143: 2139: 2135: 2130: 2124: 2122: 2121: 2118: 2113: 2112: 2102: 2097: 2093: 2089: 2085: 2084: 2083: 2081: 2077: 2073: 2069: 2064: 2056: 2052: 2048: 2044: 2040: 2039: 2038: 2036: 2032: 2028: 2024: 2013: 2011: 2010: 2006: 2002: 1993: 1989: 1985: 1984: 1978: 1974: 1966: 1965: 1964: 1963: 1957: 1953: 1949: 1940: 1937:parameter to 1928: 1924: 1920: 1913: 1912: 1906: 1904: 1903: 1899: 1896: 1889: 1883: 1871: 1865: 1864: 1860: 1857: 1850: 1844: 1832: 1828: 1826: 1824: 1820: 1816: 1812: 1802: 1798: 1793: 1789: 1784: 1783: 1778: 1777: 1776: 1774: 1770: 1766: 1762: 1751: 1747: 1743: 1739: 1735: 1731: 1723: 1722: 1721: 1720: 1716: 1712: 1702: 1699:parameter to 1690: 1686: 1682: 1675: 1674: 1668: 1652: 1648: 1644: 1640: 1639: 1638: 1635: 1631: 1630: 1629: 1625: 1621: 1614: 1609: 1608: 1607: 1603: 1599: 1594: 1593: 1592: 1589: 1584: 1583: 1572: 1568: 1564: 1559: 1558: 1557: 1556: 1555: 1554: 1553: 1552: 1551: 1550: 1541: 1537: 1533: 1528: 1525: 1524: 1523: 1519: 1515: 1511: 1510: 1509: 1505: 1501: 1497: 1496: 1495: 1491: 1487: 1483: 1482: 1481: 1480: 1476: 1472: 1467: 1464: 1461: 1458: 1455: 1454: 1450: 1447: 1441: 1434: 1429: 1410: 1409: 1405: 1401: 1395: 1394: 1391: 1390: 1386: 1382: 1376: 1370: 1369: 1368: 1364: 1360: 1356: 1355: 1354: 1350: 1346: 1341: 1340: 1339: 1338: 1334: 1330: 1325: 1324: 1323: 1319: 1315: 1311: 1310: 1309: 1308: 1304: 1300: 1294: 1293: 1292: 1288: 1284: 1280: 1279: 1278: 1277: 1276: 1272: 1268: 1259: 1248: 1244: 1240: 1229: 1227: 1226: 1222: 1218: 1214: 1212: 1207: 1205: 1197: 1192: 1190: 1185: 1184: 1178: 1175: 1171: 1170: 1169: 1165: 1161: 1157: 1154: 1144: 1141: 1136: 1132: 1130: 1127: 1122: 1121: 1120: 1116: 1113: 1106: 1099: 1095: 1091: 1087: 1086: 1085: 1082: 1079: 1075: 1072: 1070: 1066: 1063: 1061: 1057: 1054: 1053: 1051: 1046: 1043:" defined as 1042: 1038: 1034: 1031: 1028: 1025:" defined as 1024: 1020: 1016: 1013: 1011: 1007: 1004: 1003: 1001: 1000: 999: 995: 991: 987: 982: 978: 975: 973: 970: 966: 962: 958: 955: 953: 949: 946: 939: 933: 929: 928: 923: 922: 917: 913: 910: 906: 903: 899: 895: 891: 888: 887: 886: 883: 879: 876: 874: 870: 866: 862: 859: 857: 854: 844: 838: 835: 833: 829: 825: 821: 818: 817: 810: 806: 802: 798: 797: 796:Roman Spinner 792: 788: 785: 781: 777: 773: 765: 754: 750: 746: 741: 738: 734: 730: 729: 728: 724: 720: 716: 715: 714: 713: 710: 707: 706: 702: 700: 699: 692: 688: 685: 683: 680: 677: 676: 660: 656: 652: 648: 645: 643: 638: 633: 632: 627: 624: 622: 618: 614: 610: 606: 602: 598: 594: 590: 586: 582: 577: 573: 569: 565: 562: 560: 556: 552: 548: 545: 543: 539: 535: 531: 527: 524: 522: 519: 515: 510: 507: 506: 497: 494: 493: 489: 487: 486: 479: 475: 474: 473: 469: 465: 461: 460: 459:Roman Spinner 455: 451: 448: 444: 440: 436: 432: 428: 424: 420: 416: 415: 414: 410: 406: 401: 397: 396: 395: 394: 391: 387: 383: 379: 378: 377:Roman Spinner 373: 369: 365: 361: 357: 353: 352:WP:CONSISTENT 349: 346: 345: 336: 332: 328: 325: 321: 317: 315: 309: 305: 304: 303: 300: 297: 293: 289: 285: 280: 279: 278: 274: 270: 265: 261: 259: 255: 251: 247: 246: 245: 244: 241: 238: 235: 231: 227: 224: 223: 222: 221: 217: 213: 209: 205: 204: 199: 195: 191: 187: 183: 178: 173: 168: 161: 156: 151: 150: 146: 142: 137: 131: 124: 122: 117: 112: 107: 106: 101: 95: 92: 90: 87: 84: 80: 78: 75: 73: 70: 68: 65: 64: 56: 52: 48: 47: 42: 35: 34: 25: 19: 3895:— Preceding 3892: 3865: 3862:GhostStalker 3838: 3833: 3828: 3785: 3777: 3762:edit request 3718: 3666: 3630: 3627: 3624:Missing TLDR 3608: 3559: 3522: 3500: 3479: 3442: 3390: 3334: 3285: 3277: 3260: 3252: 3249: 3248: 3245: 3239: 3199:StephenKiely 3193:— Preceding 3185: 3182: 3179: 3173: 3140: 3121: 3082: 3056: 3035: 3027: 3012:edit request 2963: 2934: 2929: 2926: 2904: 2897: 2874: 2866: 2851:edit request 2811: 2781:— Preceding 2777: 2734:. 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