1918:
familiar to an
English-speaking audience. Widely known toponyms (for example, Vietnam, Hanoi, Haiphog, Hue, Saigon and so forth)appear without diacritical marks, as do proper names such as Ho Chi Minh, Ngo Dinh Diem, and Vo Nguyen Giap. The major exception to this practice is that proper names familiar to ethnologists, who may or may not be specialists in Vietnamese studies, are written as they normally appear in English. Without doubt this solution is imperfect, but I am convinced that it is preferable to the alternative of omitting the diacritics altogether or, worse yet, using only those that occur in Western languages - the circumflex, for example, and accent marks.
1905:
think if you did so, you would find that even in sources which use diacritics, the majority will probably not use them for
Vietnam, Saigon, Hanoi, and a few others that are broadly known, but do use them for other words. The same arguably could be said about something like Pho - I bet you could find books that use VN diacritics for other less-well known VN foods, but that don't use them for Pho. However, arguing that diacritics should be removed from one article based on sources which don't use diacritics at all doesn't help your case - that's a broader discussion, happening at the RfC now. This book for example doesn't put diacritics on Hue
203:
182:
702:. We do not need to provide a "romanization" for Vietnamese because the Portuguese-influenced alphabet is already a romanization of the Sino-Vietnamese name, there is no such thing as a romanization of a romanization - despite the current stance of National Geographic vs this Latin-alphabet language only. En.wp has no such stance, en.wp generally treated Vietnamese as any other Latin-alphabet language until the 1700 undiscussed moves of the last 12 months.
1003:. There may now be a problem with this RM. Kauffner, have you been sending out invitations to this RM? If so, to whom? Before answering please bear in mind that this is a move to restore an undiscussed and locked controversial move - You have already had your way with this article once, you should at least allow an RM over restoring the article to proceed cleanly. Hopefully if selected users have been directly canvassed they will be able to resist.
1232:, and the other official sources do not use these diacritics. As these sites are based in Vietnam, they certainly have the expertise and software to put diacritics on if they wanted to. I asked an editor why they don't use them and she told me, "Some people can't see them." That doesn't make much sense. But it is clearly a policy decision, not a technical issue. They have a lot more experience with this issue than we do.
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in a reference to a paper that didn't use diacritics in its title, so they don't count one way or the other, either. The point is that the diacritic is not at all rare, even if perhaps less common than the plain style (which is yet to be established if so, since nobody has counted books that use the name without the diacritcs).
1061:. Does anyone think that having one bio at a different format than the others improves the encyclopedia? I know I asked before, but I don't see a response. The title should be the name of the subject in the form that is most recognizable to an English-speaking reader. It should not be expected to give pronunciation and tone. The
98:
2019:
Kauffner, there's no point rehashing this again, you've had all these (largely spurious) arguments countered before by various Users. And if you were so sure of the logic and strength of your arguments, why did you on July 16, after several editors had asked you to stop (i) do an undiscussed move and
900:
Is it rude to point out how you consistently and repeatedly distort search results in RM discussions? Anyway, I only see 26 relevant (English-language) books in total. Many of those I can't find any occurrence of the name in, so they don't count one way or the other. Many others have the name only
1856:
uses diacritics for Ho Quy Ly, but it does not use them for Saigon and
Vietnam. There, you have an editorial decision that Saigon and Vietnam do not need them, but other, lesser known entities do. If an editorial decision was made to not use diacritics for anything, then pointing out that they don't
1340:
There's been a flurry of complaints and various proceedings against me recently, and my use of Google Books being prominent among the issues. So I have counted up the post-1980 English-language GBooks results below to provide a more detailed view of this matter. I have indicated which references are
833:
I agree; Kauffner, you have been told many times that your google searches are flawed. the OCR drops the diacritics, so you have to look at each book result individually. Every single post of yours where gbooks results have been claimed, when I checked I have found the numbers to be flawed, and many
561:
system of representing
Chinese, diacritics also indicate tonal information. However, the academic convention is to strip the diacritics from the pinyin, because a native speaker can determine the correct words from context. Same for computer input systems. Even though the article title is Ho Quy Ly,
523:
I suggest that people take
Kauffner's numbers with a big grain of salt. I clicked on the first page of google book hits (also, I got fewer than him);, and at least 3 of the sources had diacritics. Google's OCR does not always detect VN dicritical marks, but they are there in the original sources, so
1861:
information). Thus, the only sources IMHO which are valid for determining the spelling are sources which use diacritics, but choose not to for Ho Quy Ly. I'm sure there are many VN subjects which are so well known that even those who use diacritics drop them when referring to those things (the book
1970:
If en.wp articles on
Vietnamese historical figures are to be a reference work on Vietnamese historical figures there is no rule that says that en.wp must follow Britannica which has few such articles, rather than following more specialist sources. As for the French-given Latin alphabet script, the
1917:
Because
Vietnamese is a tonal language that is unpronounceable and meaningless without diacritical marks, I have included them when they were present in the original text. However, recognizing that nonspecialists may find the diacritics difficult to manage, I have omitted them from terms that are
1904:
It's not "a style I like", it's just one of the books you linked to above. I noticed in the
Bordless Histories book however that they use Vietnam in the running text. The point is, not to choose a particular book, but to have a corpus of books, and then look at what happens within that corpus. I
1267:
I am surprised to see I actually registered an oppose at the Vo Chi Cong RM, this is long before I became aware of the diacritics problem on en.wp, I must have been attracted to it purely because it was
Vietnam related. I also had no knowledge of the failed Can Tho RM move before it, nor that
930:. The most serious arguments relate to which sources are the most reliable, and I see that while it is possible to cherry-pick a few exceptional sources that intersperse English-language text with Vietnamese, the most relevant sources to Knowledge - that is, tertiary sources like
1956:. There are various tonal language besides Vietnamese, but there does not seem to be issue of putting tones in titles for other languages. Tones are even more important in Chinese than in Vietnamese, yet we use non-tonal pinyin. Officially, tones are part of the pinyin system.
598:
Ho Quy Ly is not a "translation" of Hồ Quý Ly; it's the customary way of representing
Vietnamese in an English-language context. If Ly lived in the United States or in some other English-speaking country, he would represent his name without diacritics in all formal contexts.
1341:
bibliographic. These books all follow the same style in the text as in their bibliographies, i.e. if the text uses diacritics, so does the bibliography. So I consider these references to be valid. But of course a bibliographic is less significant one in the main text.
1862:
above is an example). We need to find other examples like this book, and then use that as our source. Editorial decisions to simply drop all diacritics are like editorial decisions to publish in black and white - they don't help us if we want to determine color.--
1163:)." Published encyclopedias may not mention this individual, but they consistently give other Vietnamese names without diacritics. There are also dozens of books, some quite authoritative, where this name appears in the form that is currently used in the title.
1218:(23 September 2011). There were three votes for the form with diacritics, six against. So it wasn't even close. Do you expect a large number of the articles to move after this RM closes? Perhaps you could define the scope of this request more precisely.
351:"By the end of the following century, however, the Trần had declined and the dynasty was eventually usurped by Hồ Quý Ly, who founded the Hồ Dynasty in 1400 but failed to preserve independence of the country from Ming invasion ..."
796:
without a diacritic, which is cited in our guidelines as a spelling reference. The norm on both Wiki and in published English is not to use Vietnamese diacritics. This move would give the subject his own unique little style.
359:"The combination of the Trần court's incompetence and the treachery of Hồ Quý Ly, who first inserted himself in the royal family and then, in 1400, usurped the throne, provided the Ming Chinese with a pretext to invade."
1238:
has tried publishing both with diacritics and without. Wiki should use the format that allows English speakers to understand what we have to say with the least amount of difficulty, not out-Vietnamese the Vietnamese.
1819:
are without diacritics. Any of those would be appropriate sources for this article, and none of them can be dismissed as popular literature. It is particularly appropriate to use other references as a model, per
338:– Restore. I am not by any means convinced myself about the need for treating Vietnamese names as we do French or Czech ones, but this and other moves today come after several users have requested this stop. (i)
1937:
Pelley's book is just one of thousands on Vietnam, the vast majority of which do not use diacritics. If Wiki is supposed to be a reference work, we should follow the usage of other reference works, like
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has to say: “Although Vietnamese is written in the Latin alphabet, the number of accent marks can be distracting and may therefore be omitted." The Vietnamese English-language press, for example
408:
759:
We're not the ones making the distinction between Vietnamese and languages like French; the reliable sources are, and we are simply following the distinction that reliable sources make.
721:. If we're going to use them for German (& we do), not using them for other languages is biased & wrong. Any issues of search can be (& are) addressed with redirects.
443:
I'm afraid that "Whatever I did to upset IIO, I apologizes" might work when someone is five-years old, but isn't going to deflect from the issue here. There are in fact sections of
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per nom and supporting sources. English typically does not "translate" names except for some notable European historical figures whose names have English equivalents. —
543:. For a tonal language like Vietnamese, diacritics have extra importance for correct pronunciation, and are easily ignored by those for whom they have no significance. —
1181:
on August 7th 2011 you have moved around 950 Vietnam articles to non-diacritics without an RM and counter the result of the last RM. So question (i) (ii) and (iii) stand.
1113:(iii) Why should all European (including Turkish) Latin-alphabet bios be treated on way, but Asian Latin-alphabet bios be treated another way (except that Hawaiian isn't
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then there's no problem, and no reason for the nonsense of e.g. websites with no Czech are reliable sources for spelling Czech names. Evidently some reliable sources
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Thanks. However, I think the more interesting question is, in sources that *do* use diacritics, which ones omit the diacritics for Ho Quy Ly. For example, this book
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is where such things should be explained. In fact, the opening already gives the form of the name with diacritics in boldface. If you look over the GBook results,
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We have the technology to have Chinese character and Arabic script titles, yet we don't do it because it's not in the convention of English-language literature.
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1769:, p. 4. (2006). “In the year 1400, the cunning regent Ho Quy Ly orchestrated the strangling of the young king and massacred huge numbers of his supporters...”
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finds 4 of the first 10 with diacritics. You have to actually look at the books, since the OCR drops them, as do many other technologically limited styles.
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says to "follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language (including other encyclopedias and reference works)." No, the
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of the two options, i.e. the one with diacritics. Hopefully this post will get the attention of an admin, and pull this RM out of the backlog. Cheers,
1854:
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1096:(i) If you were concerned about consistency last year why start moving a few of them then, when most of them were consistently at Vietnamese spellings?
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Historical figures have been around for while, so there are established conventions regarding their names. These various grievances don't belong here.
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Note - I dislike having to say this but since you have made five comments here, User Shrigley you should ideally have noted that you were directly
425:. What sense would it make to move just this one? Whatever I did to upset IIO, I apologizes. This appears to be yet another RM motivated by spite.
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Out of 100 post-1990 Gbook mentions of this subject, five or six have diacritics -- and they are far from the most authoritative. He is given by
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Having single-handedly removed the Vietnamese from 1700 or so article titles, you need to stop your gaming and start listening to other Users.
1155:, and all the dozens of articles on military commanders? You think I moved them all? But let's skip past the trip down memory lane and look at
403:
793:
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and other English-language encyclopedias do not use Vietnamese diacritics. We have hundreds of Vietnamese biographies at ASCII titles, see
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As noted above; the name is not in common use in English language sources as Ho Chi Mihn, Saigon, etc. are, and therefore in keeping with
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largely consistent with all other Latin-alphabet bios until the moves started. Your question would raise three obvious counter-questions:
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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this morning. When several users have asked you to at least pause, the community should be given the opportunity to review at least.
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852:? Checking the actual text does indeed yield four books that give this name with diacritics on first page of GBook results, namely
115:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
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and other encyclopedias use diacritics for European languages, but not for Vietnamese. The convention is quite well-established.
448:
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69:
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of the non-diacritic hits are found to have diacritics in the source. Please cease this dishonest peddling of false "facts".--
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20:17, 16 July 2012 Kauffner (+52) . . (added Category:Redirects from titles with diacritics using HotCat) (undo)
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may have more experience more experience publishing a wider variety of diacritics than anyone else. Here is what
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Second - this theme that has come up on several discussions recently where Users do not seem to be familiar with
1838:, has considerable experience with both using and omitting these marks, and their usual style is to drop them.
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641:- we have the technology, so we should use it. Non-diacritic redirects can adequately cover search purposes.
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is easily the most authoritative source that mentions this subject, and the obvious one for us to follow.
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reason the French included these diacritics is that without them characters and names become ambiguous.
1555:, (2001). (The subject is given in main text without diacritics, although listed in an index with them).
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Kauffner, could you have the courtesy to address (i) (ii) (iii) please. In answer to your question, no.
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I note that the material with diacritics is heavy with highly specialized, articles from journals like
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is certainly a respected specialist source on this subject. A style limited to journal articles is a
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per Kauffner. In any case, the original Vietnamese name for this person is "胡季犛", not "Hồ Quý Ly" --
1159:: "follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language (including
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Vo Chi Cong's name does appear with diacritics in the VGP/Baomoi English article of his obituary
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treat classical Vietnamese figures with full Vietnamese names, witness the nomination. Cheers.
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1811:(currently one of the top-selling books on Vietnamese history) or multivolume reference works
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several 100 articles had already been moved without RM. Nor most importantly was I aware that
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To anglicized names. Kauffner, could you have the courtesy to address (i) (ii) (iii) please.
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For modern military figures, no you didn't move every single one. No, but since the failed
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1099:(ii) Does this mean that all French and Czech BLPs should have French and Czech spelling?
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778:. Many good English sources use the fully-elaborated real name; no reason not to then.
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the diacritics are in the text so we gain accessibility and don't lose any information.
1908:, but in this case it's a moot point since we need to disambiguate between the english
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Clearly should have the diacritics. Kauffners results above are very much distorted. -
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20:17, 16 July 2012 Kauffner (+23) . . (Kauffner moved page Hồ Quý Ly to Ho Quy Ly:
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So you found a book that follows a style you like. Is there anything wrong with
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A World Transformed: The Politics of Culture in Revolutionary Vietnam, 1945-1965
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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411:(108 deghosted) post-1990 English-language Google Book hits for "Ho Quy Ly",
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Even though you haven't addressed (i, ii, iii) I'll answer your question re
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886:. That makes seven results with diacritics out of about 100 relevant hits.
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If he had lived in the US, I would support his name without diacritics and
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WP:IRS "best such sources" "sources reliable for the statement being made"
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The Tây Sơn Uprising: Society and Rebellion in Eighteenth-century Vietnam
812:
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you have not yet moved, or had moved, as illustrated by the mass move of
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Southeast Asia: A Historical Encyclopedia, from Angkor Wat to East Timor
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Freshly moved 20:17, 16 July 2012 and redirect edited preventing revert
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is not based on French, or "French-given". Perhaps you should look at
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558:
1485:
Vietnamese ceramics: with an illustrated catalogue of the exhibition
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The Cambridge History of Southeast Asia: From early times to c.1500
123:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
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use diacritics for Ho Quy Ly is a tautology (and thus provides no
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The Country of Memory: Remaking the Past in Late Socialist Vietnam
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or not, hence Hawaiian, Czech, Vietnamese, Malaysian, French are
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Rebuilding Religious Experience- Vietnamese Refugees in America
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Strange Parallels: Southeast Asia in Global Context, C 800-1830
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which distinguishes alphabets on the basis of whether they are
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26:
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1795:, and former journal articles collected into books such as
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Encyclopedia of Modern Asia: China-India relations to Hyogo
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Vietnamese Supernaturalism: Views from the Southern Region
870:. There are three more such books in the following pages,
694:, Georgian, Armenian, Chinese, Arabic, Greek, Russian are
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974:, wheras the books among those Dicklyon links to such as
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simple google book searches are *not* sufficient here. --
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Triumph Revisited: Historians Battle for the Vietnam War
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Postcolonial Vietnam: New Histories of the National Past
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Postcolonial Vietnam: New Histories of the National Past
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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Soldered states: nation-building in Germany and Vietnam
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The Indiana Companion to Traditional Chinese Literature
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75 years of the Communist Party of Viet Nam, 1930-2005
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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The Emergence Of Modern Southeast Asia: A New History
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Beyond the Court Gate: Selected Poems of Nguyen Trai
306:. No further edits should be made to this section.
2101:. No further edits should be made to this section.
1803:. Material intended for a wider audience, such as
1188:. Answer; it is only the product of recent edits,
1606:Money, Markets, and Trade in Early Southeast Asia
848:Would anyone care to dial down the rudeness, per
1721:Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania
1391:, Volume 17, Issues 1-2. (2003) (bibliographic)
1784:The Mandate of Heaven and The Great Ming Code
1459:Southern Vietnam Under the Reign of Minh Mạng
8:
1766:Triumph Forsaken: The Vietnam War, 1954-1965
1579:China And Vietnam: The Politics of Asymmetry
2127:Low-importance biography (royalty) articles
1641:Vietnam Foreign Policy and Government Guide
1633:Vietnam: the Struggle for National Identity
1441:Southeast Asia in the 9th to 14th Centuries
970:are only generalist tertiary sources, see
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58:
1953:Southeast Asia: A Historical Encyclopedia
1912:. The authors explanation is as follows:
1813:Southeast Asia: A Historical Encyclopedia
1561:Blood and Soil: Modern Genocide 1500-2000
1272:. Hardly a license to move 950 articles.
1214:The most recent RM on this issue was for
1192:, but if "reliable" is understood by the
615:have done so in similar cases in the past
1438:David G. Marr, Anthony Crothers Milner,
938:; the most authoritative histories like
1403:Keith Weller Taylor, John K. Whitmore,
1161:other encyclopedias and reference works
982:2006 Page 100 are secondary sources. .
811:Come on, Kauffner, stop giving us that
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60:
30:
2022:edit the redirect to prevent a revert
1656:Ralph Bernard Smith, Beryl Williams,
1423:Early Southeast Asia: Selected Essays
347:Dutch-Vietnamese Relations, 1637-1700
7:
2122:C-Class biography (royalty) articles
502:How is the last sentence germane? —
311:The result of the move request was:
109:This article is within the scope of
1186:WP:Naming conventions (use English)
942:; and contemporary newspapers like
940:Cambridge History of Southeast Asia
386:Cambridge History of Southeast Asia
49:It is of interest to the following
2066:we should refer to it by the more
1730:The History of Buddhism in Vietnam
1594:Philip G. Altbach, Tōru Umakoshi,
1535:Vietnam: A Global Studies Handbook
25:
1674:Georges Boudarel, Văn Ký Nguyêñ,
1397:Colonial Armies in Southeast Asia
980:Colonial armies in Southeast Asia
1712:The Chinese State at the Borders
1677:Hanoi: City of the Rising Dragon
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160:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility
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2147:Low-importance Vietnam articles
1882:? They go all the way and give
1736:Audrey Seah, Charissa M. Nair,
1688:, Volume 47, Issues 1-2 (1988).
449:Category:Vietnamese footballers
262:This article has been rated as
133:Knowledge:WikiProject Biography
2137:WikiProject Biography articles
1879:Việt Nam: Borderless Histories
1353:Việt Nam: Borderless Histories
976:Việt Nam: Borderless Histories
415:(3 relevant) for "Hồ Quý Ly".
136:Template:WikiProject Biography
1:
2152:All WikiProject Vietnam pages
1757:The Rebel Den of Nùng Trí Cao
1518:Encyclopedia of Asian history
242:Knowledge:WikiProject Vietnam
157:This article is supported by
1797:Essays Into Vietnamese Pasts
1685:The Journal of Asian studies
1406:Essays Into Vietnamese Pasts
1286:If you were opposed, who is
245:Template:WikiProject Vietnam
121:contribute to the discussion
2132:Royalty work group articles
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2045:07:24, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
2015:05:12, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
1981:03:36, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
1966:03:24, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
1947:Encyclopedia of Modern Asia
1817:Encyclopedia of Modern Asia
1493:Books that give “Ho Quy Ly"
1345:Books that give “Hồ Quý Ly”
1047:22:50, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
946:- all omit the diacritics.
712:02:10, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
628:02:07, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
325:09:36, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
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2117:C-Class biography articles
1696:’‘ (2009) (bibliographic).
1394:Karl Hack, Tobias Rettig,
1032:17:55, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
445:Category:Vietnamese people
423:Category:Vietnamese people
315:: majority after 38 days.
268:project's importance scale
1931:16:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
1900:15:42, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
1872:15:11, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
1848:08:43, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
1513:, Vol. 1, (2000), p. 149.
1314:15:41, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
1300:09:59, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
1282:07:18, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
1263:01:08, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
1249:12:14, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
1210:10:11, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
1173:08:59, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
1127:08:05, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
1109:08:05, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
1081:07:36, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
1013:07:45, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
992:07:45, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
956:03:08, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
911:23:14, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
896:21:08, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
844:16:16, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
829:15:34, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
807:12:15, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
788:06:32, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
769:03:08, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
753:12:24, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
732:20:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
665:03:08, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
651:20:14, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
609:03:08, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
594:23:58, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
572:03:08, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
553:04:16, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
534:15:21, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
512:04:16, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
498:03:58, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
475:05:23, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
461:04:53, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
435:03:49, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
398:Vietnam, past and present
370:01:17, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
261:
196:
156:
81:
57:
2142:C-Class Vietnam articles
2094:Please do not modify it.
1400:, (2006) (bibliographic)
1383:, (2007) (bibliographic)
1336:Counting up Google Books
1194:"definition of reliable"
817:book search (since 1990)
299:Please do not modify it.
224:This article is part of
1985:Even by that standard,
1787:(bibliographic) (2011).
1659:Pre-Communist Indochina
1480:(2006) (bibliographic).
1447:William H. Nienhauser,
1089:Well, the Vietnam bios
1991:specialist style fancy
1920:
1801:specialist fancy style
1760:(2007) (bibliographic)
1501:The History of Vietnam
1179:Talk:Cần Thơ/Archive 1
153:
39:This article is rated
1915:
1691:Mark Philip Bradley,
1588:Beyond the Court Gate
1567:Victor B. Lieberman,
1474:George Edson Dutton,
152:
112:WikiProject Biography
1615:China Among Unequals
75:Royalty and Nobility
1999:Vietnamese alphabet
1826:National Geographic
1665:Kim Ngoc Bao Ninh,
1521:, Volume 2, (1988).
1507:Tarling, Nicholas,
1465:Claire Sutherland,
1226:Vietnam News Agency
228:WikiProject Vietnam
1830:their style manual
1809:History of Vietnam
1597:Asian Universities
1573:, Volume 1 (2003).
1532:L. Shelton Woods,
1371:Nguyễn Cochinchina
1350:Nhung Tuyet Tran,
1053:Further discussion
696:non-Latin-alphabet
154:
139:biography articles
45:content assessment
1987:Cambridge History
1805:Cambridge History
1772:Owen, Norman G.,
1718:Barbara A. West,
1700:Andrew A. Wiest,
1498:Justin Corfield,
1456:Choi Byung Wook,
944:VietnamNet Bridge
726:
673:canvassed 20 July
404:VietnamNet Bridge
317:Anthony Appleyard
282:
281:
278:
277:
274:
273:
175:
174:
171:
170:
16:(Redirected from
2159:
2096:
1754:James Anderson,
1727:Tài Thư Nguyễn,
1630:D. R. SarDesai,
1621:Yuan-Kang Wang,
1612:Brantly Womack,
1603:Robert S. Wick,
1576:Brantly Womack,
1549:Hue-Tam Ho Tai,
1377:Anh Tuấn Hoàng,
1359:Patricia Pelly,
1230:Voice of Vietnam
727:
724:
625:
624:
591:
590:
301:
250:
249:
248:Vietnam articles
246:
243:
240:
221:
216:
215:
214:
205:
198:
197:
192:
184:
177:
141:
140:
137:
134:
131:
117:join the project
106:
104:Biography portal
101:
100:
99:
90:
83:
82:
77:
66:
59:
42:
36:
35:
27:
21:
2167:
2166:
2162:
2161:
2160:
2158:
2157:
2156:
2107:
2106:
2105:
2092:
1781:Yonglin Jiang,
1624:Harmony and War
1495:
1420:O. W. Wolters,
1380:Silk for Silver
1347:
1338:
1055:
877:Silk for Silver
867:Colonial Armies
723:
620:
619:
586:
585:
377:
297:
287:
247:
244:
241:
238:
237:
217:
212:
210:
190:
138:
135:
132:
129:
128:
102:
97:
95:
72:
43:on Knowledge's
40:
23:
22:
15:
12:
11:
5:
2165:
2163:
2155:
2154:
2149:
2144:
2139:
2134:
2129:
2124:
2119:
2109:
2108:
2104:
2103:
2089:requested move
2083:
2082:
2056:
2055:
2054:
2053:
2052:
2051:
2050:
2049:
2048:
2047:
2033:
2032:
2031:
2028:
1935:
1934:
1933:
1923:Obi-Wan Kenobi
1864:Obi-Wan Kenobi
1789:
1788:
1779:
1770:
1761:
1752:
1743:
1734:
1725:
1716:
1707:
1698:
1694:Vietnam at War
1689:
1681:
1672:
1663:
1654:
1645:
1637:
1628:
1619:
1610:
1601:
1592:
1583:
1574:
1565:
1558:Kiernan, Ben,
1556:
1547:
1539:
1530:
1522:
1514:
1505:
1494:
1491:
1490:
1489:
1481:
1472:
1463:
1454:
1445:
1436:
1427:
1418:
1410:
1401:
1392:
1384:
1375:
1366:
1357:
1346:
1343:
1337:
1334:
1333:
1332:
1331:
1330:
1329:
1328:
1327:
1326:
1325:
1324:
1323:
1322:
1321:
1320:
1319:
1318:
1317:
1316:
1182:
1145:Vo Nguyen Giap
1132:
1131:
1130:
1129:
1111:
1097:
1094:
1084:
1083:
1054:
1051:
1050:
1049:
1035:
1034:
1016:
1015:
995:
994:
978:2006 Page 69,
959:
958:
924:
923:
922:
921:
920:
919:
918:
917:
916:
915:
914:
913:
773:
772:
771:
756:
755:
716:
715:
714:
692:Latin-alphabet
688:Latin-alphabet
680:
668:
667:
635:
634:
633:
632:
631:
630:
577:
576:
575:
574:
537:
536:
517:
516:
515:
514:
482:
481:
480:
479:
478:
477:
438:
437:
392:Blood and Soil
376:
373:
330:
328:
309:
308:
294:requested move
288:
286:
285:Requested move
283:
280:
279:
276:
275:
272:
271:
264:Low-importance
260:
254:
253:
251:
223:
222:
219:Vietnam portal
206:
194:
193:
191:Low‑importance
185:
173:
172:
169:
168:
165:Low-importance
155:
145:
144:
142:
108:
107:
91:
79:
78:
67:
55:
54:
48:
37:
24:
18:Talk:Ho Quy Ly
14:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
2164:
2153:
2150:
2148:
2145:
2143:
2140:
2138:
2135:
2133:
2130:
2128:
2125:
2123:
2120:
2118:
2115:
2114:
2112:
2102:
2100:
2095:
2090:
2085:
2084:
2081:
2077:
2073:
2069:
2065:
2064:WP:COMMONNAME
2061:
2058:
2057:
2046:
2042:
2038:
2037:In ictu oculi
2034:
2029:
2026:
2025:
2023:
2018:
2017:
2016:
2012:
2008:
2004:
2000:
1996:
1995:WP:DIACRITICS
1992:
1988:
1984:
1983:
1982:
1978:
1974:
1973:In ictu oculi
1969:
1968:
1967:
1963:
1959:
1955:
1954:
1949:
1948:
1943:
1942:
1936:
1932:
1928:
1924:
1919:
1914:
1911:
1907:
1903:
1902:
1901:
1897:
1893:
1889:
1885:
1881:
1880:
1875:
1874:
1873:
1869:
1865:
1860:
1855:
1852:
1851:
1850:
1849:
1845:
1841:
1837:
1836:
1831:
1827:
1823:
1818:
1814:
1810:
1807:, Corfield’s
1806:
1802:
1798:
1794:
1786:
1785:
1780:
1777:
1776:
1771:
1768:
1767:
1762:
1759:
1758:
1753:
1750:
1749:
1745:Trãi Nguyễn,
1744:
1741:
1740:
1735:
1732:
1731:
1726:
1723:
1722:
1717:
1714:
1713:
1708:
1705:
1704:
1699:
1697:
1695:
1690:
1687:
1686:
1682:
1679:
1678:
1673:
1670:
1669:
1664:
1662:
1660:
1655:
1652:
1651:
1646:
1643:
1642:
1638:
1635:
1634:
1629:
1626:
1625:
1620:
1617:
1616:
1611:
1608:
1607:
1602:
1599:
1598:
1593:
1590:
1589:
1585:Trai Nguyen,
1584:
1581:
1580:
1575:
1572:
1571:
1566:
1563:
1562:
1557:
1554:
1553:
1548:
1545:
1544:
1540:
1537:
1536:
1531:
1528:
1527:
1523:
1520:
1519:
1515:
1512:
1511:
1506:
1503:
1502:
1497:
1496:
1492:
1487:
1486:
1482:
1479:
1478:
1473:
1470:
1469:
1464:
1461:
1460:
1455:
1452:
1451:
1446:
1443:
1442:
1437:
1434:
1433:
1428:
1425:
1424:
1419:
1416:
1415:
1411:
1408:
1407:
1402:
1399:
1398:
1393:
1390:
1389:
1385:
1382:
1381:
1376:
1373:
1372:
1367:
1364:
1363:
1358:
1355:
1354:
1349:
1348:
1344:
1342:
1335:
1315:
1311:
1307:
1306:In ictu oculi
1303:
1302:
1301:
1297:
1293:
1289:
1285:
1284:
1283:
1279:
1275:
1274:In ictu oculi
1271:
1266:
1265:
1264:
1260:
1256:
1255:In ictu oculi
1252:
1251:
1250:
1246:
1242:
1237:
1236:
1235:Viet Nam News
1231:
1227:
1223:
1222:
1217:
1213:
1212:
1211:
1207:
1203:
1202:In ictu oculi
1199:
1195:
1191:
1187:
1183:
1180:
1176:
1175:
1174:
1170:
1166:
1162:
1158:
1157:WP:DIACRITICS
1154:
1153:Phan Boi Chau
1150:
1149:Ngo Dinh Diem
1146:
1142:
1138:
1137:
1136:
1135:
1134:
1133:
1128:
1124:
1120:
1119:In ictu oculi
1116:
1112:
1110:
1106:
1102:
1101:In ictu oculi
1098:
1095:
1092:
1088:
1087:
1086:
1085:
1082:
1078:
1074:
1070:
1066:
1065:
1060:
1057:
1056:
1052:
1048:
1044:
1040:
1037:
1036:
1033:
1029:
1025:
1021:
1018:
1017:
1014:
1010:
1006:
1005:In ictu oculi
1002:
1001:
997:
996:
993:
989:
985:
984:In ictu oculi
981:
977:
973:
969:
965:
961:
960:
957:
953:
949:
945:
941:
937:
933:
929:
926:
925:
912:
908:
904:
899:
898:
897:
893:
889:
885:
884:
879:
878:
873:
869:
868:
863:
859:
855:
851:
847:
846:
845:
841:
837:
832:
831:
830:
826:
822:
818:
814:
810:
809:
808:
804:
800:
795:
791:
790:
789:
785:
781:
777:
774:
770:
766:
762:
758:
757:
754:
750:
746:
742:
738:
735:
734:
733:
730:
728:
720:
717:
713:
709:
705:
704:In ictu oculi
701:
697:
693:
689:
685:
681:
678:
677:again 20 July
674:
670:
669:
666:
662:
658:
654:
653:
652:
648:
644:
640:
637:
636:
629:
626:
623:
616:
612:
611:
610:
606:
602:
597:
596:
595:
592:
589:
582:
579:
578:
573:
569:
565:
560:
556:
555:
554:
550:
546:
545:P.T. Aufrette
542:
539:
538:
535:
531:
527:
522:
519:
518:
513:
509:
505:
504:P.T. Aufrette
501:
500:
499:
495:
491:
490:76.65.131.160
487:
484:
483:
476:
472:
468:
464:
463:
462:
458:
454:
453:In ictu oculi
450:
446:
442:
441:
440:
439:
436:
432:
428:
424:
420:
419:
414:
410:
406:
405:
400:
399:
395:, SarDesai's
394:
393:
388:
387:
382:
379:
378:
374:
372:
371:
367:
363:
362:In ictu oculi
360:
356:
352:
348:
345:
341:
337:
333:
327:
326:
322:
318:
314:
307:
305:
300:
295:
290:
289:
284:
269:
265:
259:
256:
255:
252:
235:
231:
230:
229:
220:
209:
207:
204:
200:
199:
195:
189:
186:
183:
179:
166:
163:(assessed as
162:
161:
151:
147:
146:
143:
126:
125:documentation
122:
118:
114:
113:
105:
94:
92:
89:
85:
84:
80:
76:
71:
68:
65:
61:
56:
52:
46:
38:
34:
29:
28:
19:
2093:
2086:
2067:
2059:
1986:
1951:
1945:
1939:
1916:
1887:
1883:
1877:
1858:
1833:
1825:
1816:
1812:
1808:
1804:
1796:
1792:
1790:
1782:
1773:
1764:
1763:Mark Moyar,
1755:
1746:
1737:
1728:
1719:
1710:
1709:Diana Lary,
1701:
1692:
1683:
1675:
1666:
1657:
1648:
1647:Linh Hoang,
1639:
1631:
1622:
1613:
1604:
1595:
1586:
1577:
1568:
1559:
1550:
1541:
1533:
1524:
1516:
1508:
1499:
1483:
1475:
1466:
1457:
1448:
1439:
1430:
1421:
1412:
1404:
1395:
1386:
1378:
1369:
1360:
1351:
1339:
1233:
1219:
1197:
1190:such as this
1160:
1115:Kalanikūpule
1090:
1068:
1063:
1062:
1058:
1041:per nom. ༆ (
1038:
1019:
998:
979:
975:
967:
963:
943:
939:
935:
931:
927:
881:
875:
865:
775:
740:
736:
718:
695:
691:
687:
638:
621:
587:
580:
540:
520:
485:
416:
402:
396:
390:
389:, Keirnan's
384:
380:
358:
354:
350:
346:
329:
312:
310:
298:
291:
263:
234:project page
226:
225:
158:
110:
51:WikiProjects
2099:move review
1216:Vo Chi Cong
1141:Ho Chi Minh
1139:What about
304:move review
2111:Categories
1941:Britannica
1859:additional
1793:Crossroads
1661:’‘ (2009).
1429:Thiện Đỗ,
1388:Crossroads
1000:WP:CANVASS
964:Britannica
932:Britannica
883:Crossroads
725:TREKphiler
418:Britannica
313:page moved
2003:this book
1706:, (2010).
1636:, (1992).
1627:, (2010).
1618:, (2010).
1609:, (1992).
1600:, (2004).
1591:, (2010).
1582:, (2006).
1564:, (2008).
1538:, (2002).
1504:, (2008).
1471:, (2010).
1368:Tana Li,
1069:Cambridge
962:Actually
737:Britannia
622:AjaxSmack
588:AjaxSmack
336:Hồ Quý Ly
332:Ho Quy Ly
130:Biography
70:Biography
2007:Kauffner
1958:Kauffner
1892:Kauffner
1840:Kauffner
1835:VOV News
1426:, (2008)
1374:, (1998)
1365:, (2002)
1356:, (2006)
1292:Kauffner
1241:Kauffner
1221:Nhan Dan
1165:Kauffner
1073:Kauffner
968:Columbia
948:Shrigley
936:Columbia
903:Dicklyon
888:Kauffner
850:WP:CIVIL
821:Dicklyon
815:. This
813:bullshit
799:Kauffner
780:Dicklyon
761:Shrigley
745:Kauffner
741:Columbia
657:Shrigley
601:Shrigley
564:Shrigley
467:Kauffner
427:Kauffner
407:. I get
2068:correct
2060:Support
1884:Sài Gòn
1778:(2005).
1751:(2010).
1742:(2005).
1739:Vietnam
1733:(2008).
1724:(2010).
1715:(2007).
1680:(2002).
1671:(2002).
1653:(2008).
1644:(2007).
1546:(2002).
1529:(2004).
1488:(1982).
1462:(2004).
1435:(2003).
1064:article
1059:Comment
1039:Support
1024:DJSasso
1020:Support
972:WP:PSTS
794:Encarta
776:Support
719:Support
643:Mjroots
639:Support
581:Support
557:In the
541:Support
521:support
401:, and
342:. (ii)
266:on the
239:Vietnam
188:Vietnam
41:C-class
2072:Zaldax
1888:Hà Nội
1453:(1986)
1417:(2005)
1409:(1995)
1224:, the
928:Oppose
880:, and
864:, and
858:Pelley
698:. See
675:&
559:pinyin
486:Oppose
383:, per
381:Oppose
375:Survey
47:scale.
2020:(ii)
1950:, or
1822:WP:EN
836:KarlB
700:WP:AT
684:WP:AT
617:. —
526:KarlB
357:2002
349:2007
2076:talk
2041:talk
2011:talk
1977:talk
1962:talk
1927:talk
1896:talk
1886:and
1868:talk
1844:talk
1815:and
1310:talk
1296:talk
1288:this
1278:talk
1259:talk
1245:talk
1206:talk
1169:talk
1123:talk
1105:talk
1091:were
1077:talk
1043:talk
1028:talk
1009:talk
988:talk
966:and
952:talk
934:and
907:talk
892:talk
854:Tran
840:talk
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860:,
409:344
258:Low
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