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Slovene or
Serbian territory, and there are political implications to including Hungarian terms in this article for that reason. There was a great deal of POV-revisionism across this and a large number of articles on towns and villages in Vojvodina while I was developing this article, and I am wary of adding more Hungarian names than necessary, as it tends to attract the revisionists. That is the underlying reason I want to see sources that show the governing authorities used those names for the territories during the occupation. At present, we know that Macartney used these names, but I don't see anything yet that explicitly shows the Hungarian authorities used them. If there aren't sources that explicitly show their usage, then I don't support their inclusion. We already have a section giving a significant sample of Hungarian place names used during the occupation as well as an explanation of the name reversions etc. I'm not sure what we would be adding to this article by the inclusion of the Hungarian terms for these territories unless they were called that by the governing authorities (ie the Hungarian government) during the occupation. It seems to me that the mention of
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intention of preserving strict official correctness and impartiality, and of using only the official name of each place, changing my usage appropriately if the official name changed (as it did in the areas recovered by
Hungary after 1938). But I found myself in difficulties. Even the official position which a Briton ought to adopt was not always clear. It was really rather absurd to describe, for instance, a Hungarian ministerial council as talking about places under names which none of the speakers had ever used in their lives, and where I was quoting verbatim from documents it would have been incorrect to do so. Besides this, much the greater part of this book is based on Hungarian sources, written or oral; and on reading through the proofs I found that I had very often, out of sheer human negligence, put down the name which I had read, or heard. I see nothing for it but to plead guilty to frequent violations of my own rule, begging my readers to read no political implications into these lapses.
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during which the territories remained legally
Yugoslav, not other periods in the history of these lands. It is my understanding that the four regions were integrated into four pre-existing Hungarian counties, and they were the administrative divisions used by the authorities, and that is what the article currently reflects. If you have reliable sources for what the four annexed regions (essentially parts of existing counties, as I understand it) were called by the governing authorities
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their own hands; as to the latter, although Bárdossy recognised the moral validity of the Ullein–Maček agreement, he did not dare brave his own public opinion by ordering the evacuation of the area, which remained under provisional military occupation until
Hungary herself took the further step described below ." While we're at it, the map at "Geography" would be better under "Districts", but it will probably mess with the tables there.
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to including
Hungarian terms in this article". This is about a Hungarian occupation! I know its the Balkans and it brings out some of the worst kinds of nationalists, but I'm not sure I see what's controversial. Anyway, I don't know Hungarian so I won't be searching for records online about gov't usage. I think the Macartney passage I quoted
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Okay, that looks fine. What I propose is to insert the following sentence in the
Districts section immediately after "Prekmurje had been part of the Drava Banovina." →"The Hungarian authorities referred to the occupied territories by the following names: Bácska for Bačka, Baranya for Baranja, Muraköz
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They were reverted because they were inserted in places that gave an ahistorical impression (ie they did not match the context). I am not opposed to using
Hungarian forms, but I am wary of using them except when directly relevant to the occupation because this article is talking about the occupation,
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My rationale was as originally stated: "a reader wanting to know more should know them as search terms". A reader trying to verify the references to
Macartney will have some difficulty finding, e.g., Prekmurje in the index (or the text). In any case, I disagree that "there are political implications
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Somehow, I just knew those would be reverted... But they ought to appear somewhere in the article, since they are (a) the forms actually in use by the governing authorities during the period under discussion and (b) they are sometimes used by
English sources and a reader wanting to know more should
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I took it from this that the
Hungarian names are the ones the Hungarians used. (I would be shocked if it were otherwise. After all, we don't say "Deutschland" in English much.) I am not claiming that the traditional regions had an official existence of their own: they were incorporated into/merged
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The kind of statement I think you're looking for is on p. 13: "Three days later , the allocation to Hungary of the Bácska, Baranya and Muravidék was announced in a communiqué which maintained discreet silence on the Bánát and the Muraköz. The Germans were keeping the former area provisionally in
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Most places situated up to 1918 in Historic Hungary, but thereafter assigned to Successor States, and even some left inside Trianon Hungary, possess at least two names, and strong political and sentimental implications attach to the use of the respective alternatives. I began this book with the
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I appreciate that is what Macartney did, and he was right to be careful how he handled it, given the scope of his work. However, the scope of this article is strictly limited to the occupation of these Yugoslav territories during 1941–45, not their earlier or later history as Hungarian, Croat,
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I think that sentence is slightly misleading, because it suggests that Hungary created new names of those regions. However Hungarians always refers to those territories by Bácska, Muraköz etc. as they were part of Hungary until 1918 (officially 1920). Today, Hungarians still use those names.
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It appears that I was incorrect about the reversion, none of the listed ones in the tables are ones that were created by the Hungarian authorities with no historical precedent. Apparently there was such naming, but as they are not listed, the tables can remain as changed. Cheers,
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Alright, let's get down to tin tacks. Assuming I agreed with inclusion, we'd need citations. On what pages does Macartney actually introduce these terms, and is his reference to the respective Yugoslav territories, either explicitly or by implication? Cheers,
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in the lead plus inclusion of the Hungarian counties that absorbed these territories already achieves the aim. It is not as if the article avoids the mention of the fact that these territories were Hungarian pre-Trianon. Cheers,
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Barczy has a note on a Ministerial Council held on 7th January 1943, which runs: "Kallay: 'the total population of the Muraköz is only 120,000. True, only 20,000 of these are Magyars, but the whole population prefers to be in
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If my understanding is correct, there are names which could not be described as Hungarian names, because they were only used by the Hungarian authorities, but not by the Hungarians. Which are these names?
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I disagree, it says nothing of the sort. All it says is that they were the names used by the Hungarian authorities, which is obviously correct, and is consistent with the source.
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know them as search terms. As an aside, the name Szabadka pre-dates Subotica, but I am not going to insist on a Hungarian name for every place, just the four territories.
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It reads a little awkwardly to me, but it's fine. Would the average reader take it to mean that the 1941 authorities
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No, and as I say, PANNONIAN is inactive. It seems likely that XrysD could find sources and do a replacement.
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Macartney's note on his own usage makes clear that "Muraköz" is the original term in the informal note.
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Macartney uses the Hungarian terms. Here is what he says in his "Note on the use of place-names":
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In the lead we usually do not use citations, but summarize the core points of the article.(
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as it's not identical. I don't have access to the books to check their content, do you?
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Ive noticed in the first paragraph there are a large amount of un-sourced claims.
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for Međimurje, and Muravidék for Prekmurje.{{sfn|Macartney|1957|p=13}}"← Thoughts?
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There was a Census in Hungary just after the occupation of Yugoslav territories.
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those names? If you don't think so, then go ahead and implement it.
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Well written, with all main elements covered, factually accurate. --
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I’ll take a look at the history in the next few days. Cheers,
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suggests it. He does have a note on p. 146 that reads:
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362:April 9, 2013
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110:Verifiability
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52:Learn to edit
49:
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18:
17:
1997:Peacemaker67
1957:Peacemaker67
1943:Peacemaker67
1901:Peacemaker67
1845:
1801:— Preceding
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1765:Peacemaker67
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1693:Peacemaker67
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1556:Peacemaker67
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1514:Peacemaker67
1509:
1490:
1477:send... over
1473:Peacemaker67
1455:
1452:Good article
1430:
1394:
1390:
1315:Did you know
1303:
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467:World War II
435:WikiProjects
403:
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298:please do so
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19:This is the
1777:Thank you.
1253:Škofja Loka
1234:Pavel Golia
249:Labor Party
226:written in
148:free images
31:not a forum
2022:Categories
1968:added them
1712:Norden1990
1645:Norden1990
1577:Hungary.'"
1406:Yugoslavia
1401:Yugoslavia
1370:Yugoslavia
1280:Čop Street
637:has passed
289:identified
1230:Litostroj
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1962:Yes for
1923:A455bcd9
1860:A455bcd9
1815:contribs
1803:unsigned
1675:invented
1571:strongly
1551:Délvidék
1471:Thanks!
1339:Take/Add
1284:Radenska
1191:Requests
1101:Slovenia
1092:Slovenia
1048:Slovenia
463:European
425:FA-class
393:Promoted
374:Approved
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1827:KIENGIR
1779:Borsoka
1749:Borsoka
1433:on the
1323:suggest
1309:Update
1262:Expand:
1244:Cleanup
1155:history
1128:on the
1023:on the
918:on the
891:Hungary
882:Hungary
838:Hungary
813:on the
786:Croatia
777:Croatia
733:Croatia
333:Process
241:program
237:realise
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1921:G'day
1854:, and
1691:Done.
1458:Gorran
1330:assess
1321:, and
1213:Wikify
996:Serbia
987:Serbia
943:Serbia
459:Balkan
431:scale.
355:Listed
336:Result
245:labour
233:colour
126:Google
1877:(see
1679:Srnec
1612:Srnec
1582:Srnec
1536:Srnec
1494:Srnec
1328:Help
1271:Stubs
1182:watch
1165:purge
1160:watch
282:is a
247:(but
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1987:talk
1973:For
1955:Hi @
1887:talk
1879:here
1864:talk
1831:talk
1811:talk
1783:talk
1753:talk
1716:talk
1683:talk
1649:talk
1616:talk
1586:talk
1540:talk
1498:talk
1462:talk
1311:News
1290:NPOV
1207:(sl)
1200:(sl)
1150:edit
330:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1425:Low
1185:):
1120:Low
1015:Low
910:Low
805:Low
640:an
176:TWL
2024::
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188::
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128:(
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