Talk:Jehovah/Archive 2

6559:(ii) Every Hebrew proper name that includes the English letter 'J' is 'wrong' if it is considered incorrect to use anything other than the 'original' (Hebrew) spelling and language. The sentence implies that the precise pronunciation of words such as Jesus has been lost. Surely we know how to pronounce Jesus in English! (Other languages vary). Perhaps the paragraph should make reference to the fact that the English J is not the exact equivalent of any Hebrew letter. Furthermore, it is not the 'precise pronunciation' which has been lost, but rather, taking 'Jehovah' as an example, it is the 'original pronunciation' that has been lost! 6188:

pronunciation! If we were Jewish and editing the Hebrew version of Wiki, we might well object to using the English versions of Hebrew names in a Hebrew Wiki. But as this edition of Knowledge is the English language version, could it be that we simply state the English word 'Jehovah', give its meaning and uses, and show the etymology, as we do with all other words. Any arguments about its 'correct' pronunciation surely (perhaps?) belong to Hebrew linguists discussing/explaining/arguing the matter with/to a Jewish readership! --

1244:"Lord," which the Jews substituted for the proper name in reading the scriptures. In such cases of substitution the vowels of the word which is to be read are written in the Hebrew text with the consonants of the word which is not to be read. The consonants of the word to he substituted are ordinarily written in the margin; but inasmuch as "Adonay" was regularly read instead of the ineffable name Jhvh, it was deemed unnecessary to note the fact at every occurrence. 31: 3269:. There is no place on Knowledge for either "Jewish" articles or "Christian" articles. We certainly should be clear that Jews reject both the possibility and the desirability of pronouncing the Divine Name. We need to be clear as to why the pronuncation "Jehovah" as been rejected on linguistic grounds. We need to describe how the name "Jehovah" has been used by Christians. But all these things must be presented from a neutral point of view. 3247:

Christians are not necessarily in agreement on the subject of this article. I have no interest in involving myself in the rest of the article, which gives the views of Christian theologians. I think one sentence that makes clear that this article is about what Christians think, and that these views do not necessarily reflect Jewish views, is minimally necessary for fairness, and for neutrality.

3726:

Well, it was an English reading of the vocalized tetragrammaton by people unacquainted with Jewish tradition. Your complaint that "Jewish tradition is discussed exclusively from a Christian POV" is entirely misguided. This is not about יהוה or Yahweh, but about Jehovah, a name Jews would never use, and also unusual among Christians in many countries, but traditional in English.

3224:, for goodness' sake. There's nothing Christian about it. The name is used by both Christians and non-Christians. And saying "most sacred" is hardly POV. I really don't know what you're going on about. I really want to work on this article, but I'm waiting for the issues be be resolved, because I don't want all my edits reverted. 928:

Witnesses Believe." They could express their own viewpoint as freely as they wish then. I know this is a POV fork, but I see no way to achieve consensus because the underlying premises are so different. If you accept Jehovah as the name of God as a matter of faith, no amount of scholarly argument can possibly be convincing.

4865:"04:00, 25 April"?! What's the rush? Even if the AfD succeeds, and the article is deleted, it can still be recreated. I understand that this editing process has been frustrating, and I regret that I may have contributed to the sense of pressure, but there is no reason to think that this process can not work out well. 4991:

Right now it says: "Jehovah is an English name for God which was used at Exodus 6:3 in a 1761 Edition of the King James Bible." On the one hand there is a discrepancy between the 1761 in the text and the 1671 under the image. On the other hand, this sounds like Jehovah is a historical topic, which it

2186:

I certainly would have no problem with Jewish editors adding their POV on this issue, from a Knowledge "Neutral Point Of View. Why doesn't some Jewish editor add a new secction to the Knowledge Article:Jehovah. That seems to be the way that different POV's are usually added to a Knowledge Article, in

1481:

Wrong. Jewish sources never include the vowel marks for YHVH. (There are many sites on the web that claim to be Jewish that are not -- frequently the efforts of missionaries trying to convert Jews). Even if there were Jews who wanted to include the vowel marks, since no one knows the pronunciation no

908:

5) The reference to the Catholic Encyclopedia is, again, misleading. The edition cited (published in 15 volumes between 1907 and 1912) and largely available online, has been superseded by many more modern works that draw on modern scholarship, particularly after the encouragement of serious Catholic

5668:

In my opinion, due to previous complaints I have heard about this article, not only should an attempt be made to eliminate all Hebrew Font from the Introduction, but section #1 and section #2 should both be moved to the end of the article, where readers with knowledge of Hebrew would still have easy

5602:

In more detail: the lead is already long, and before adding anything else, IMO we should think really hard as to whether it is actually really useful in the lead, or whether it is detail that can be left to the main body of the article. Frankly the difference between Iehovah, Iehouah and Jehovah is

5508:

Since there are 3 different English translations of the specific vocalization of the tetragrammaton that is found 6518 times in the Ben Chayyim Hebrew text of 1525 A.D. I will start again, and try to explain,in the lead sentences, the other two English translations that were written in 1530 A.D. and

4953:

It appeared in the English Bible in Tyndale's translation of the Pentateuch (1530), and is found in all English Protestant versions of the 16th century except that of Coverdale (535). In the Authorized Version of 1611 it occurs in Exod. vi. 3; Ps. lxxxiii. 15; Isa. xii., xxvi. 4, beside the compound

2524:

I still have no idea why this article exists as a separate article from the Yahweh article. If this article is nothing but a content fork from the Yahweh article, this article should be nominated for deletion. Am I missing something? Could someone please explain to me why this article and the Yahweh

6178:

of a Hebrew word, then to be consistent, similar etymological qualifying comments should be added the lead sentences/paragraphs referring to other Hebrew names such as Jacob, Jesus, Jerusalem, Jeremiah, etc etc which appear in Wiki! It is interesting to note that, to date, not one of those articles

5563:

It is generally agreed therefore, in line with Jewish teaching, that "Jehovah" is a translation of "hybrid" Hebrew spelling of the name of the God of Israel. The "hybrid" spelling of the name of the God of Israel was created when the Masoretes added the vowel pointing of Adonai to the consonants of

5550:

Although Jehovah is a direct phonetic transliteration of a specific vocalization of the Tetragrammaton, that occurs 6518 times in the Masoretic text that underlies the Old Testament of the King James Bible, the English name Jehovah is arguably believed to be a mispronunciation of the name of the

5469:

5010:

Yes, to put it bluntly, Seeker changed it and introduced a number of errors. It was I who inserted the unadorned "God", though, and I take your point. I was trying to be as neutral as possible, and I still can't see a better option. "Biblical God," maybe. But I can see what will happen. People will

3462:

What I am trying to make clear is that religious Jews do not engage in speculation over how Y-H-V-H is pronounced. It was Christians, not Jews, that used the name "Jehovah", and other variations. I think a statement to that effect belongs in the introduction, and do not understand the resistance to

3292:

about an aspect of Christian theology. There is no way around that. You may believe that the article represents both Christian and Jewish thinking, but it does not. As far as established Jewish theology is concerned, Y-H-V-H is not pronounced. An article about how it is pronounced, is by its nature

1768:

However very quickly this article notes that "Iehouah" was being critiqued by John Drusius in 1604. John Drusius wrote that neither "Iehouah" or the form of YHWH which had the precise same vowel points as "Elohiym" represented God's actual name. So the article starts out noting how early "Jehovah"

900:

Jehovah and Yahweh are the two most common ways to transliterate the personal name of God in the Tanach (Hebrew Bible, Old Testament). This proper name for God is rendered as LORD or GOD (in small capitals to distinguish it from Adonai, another word translated as "Lord") in most modern translations

639:

I note that a duplication of information has arisen:- compare the data in sub-section 1:"Modern usage of the rendering Jehovah" with sub-section 9: "Use of Jehovah in English." The layout therefore appears to be in need of careful editing to rectify the matter. Unfortunately, I cannot readily see a

596:

I also want to point out that "Yahweh" is the modern transliteration of "YHWH", and therefore should be the number 1 "see also" link. "Yah" is extremely closely connected to Yahweh - its either a contraction of it, or an earlier form, and therefore should go at number 2. Theophory should go towards

317:

However, when the yud/yod/yohdh is in final positions or before consonants it is traditionally translated into an 'i', (See Hebrew Alphabet) e.g. Hophni, Gerizim, Goliath, Isaac, Isaiah, Issacher, Ishmael, Israel etc . There are about 50 Hebrew Bible names with this construction that are translated

6411:

In such cases of substitution the vowels of the word which is to be read are written in the Hebrew text with the consonants of the word which is not to be read. The consonants of the word to he substituted are ordinarily written in the margin; but inasmuch as "Adonay" was regularly read instead of

5972:

As for Iehovah, Iehouah and Jehovah, surely this is an unnecessary complication for the lead section. The important story for the the lead is the idea of making the transliteration "Jehovah" at all -- rather than using eg "Adonai" as found in the Vulgate, or "LORD" as found in other translations.

4937:

3725:

Yes, please undo what you did. The intro of this article has never been in so bad a shape before. What should the intro say? Jehova is the name some (many) people use as the name of their god. That is the importance of this name today. Next after that is the question about the origin of this name.

1592:

I don't see anything on the page you've linked about never including the vowel marks for the Tetragrammaton. Rather, it says that you don't try to pronounce the Tetragrammaton as written -- just as Carlaude and I said above. Indeed, that very site is the one hosting the electronic version of the

885:

1) It is *not* the most frequent vocalization as vocalized by the Masoretes. They, knowing Hebrew, and knowing that one never pronounced the divine name, and seeing the impossible pointing, would have used the accepted circumlocution of Adonai. No Masoretic Jew would have ever uttered "Jehovah."

5368:

is unreadable. Try to remember that there will be people reading this article who do not know Hebrew, much less what a vowel point is. It would be nice if such readers could have at the first a sentence that is understandable, rather than an exercise in postmodernist incomprehensibility. (For the

3650:

This is not a discussion forum. I am just trying to get the introduction to the article into acceptable shape. I just did some re-writing on the part of the introduction still in the article, to make it point easier to understand. If that change is okay with other editors, I have no objection to

3246:

Christian. This article gives Christian views that are contrary to established Jewish theology. The Christians have a right to interpret Jewish religious texts as thay wish, but it needs to be clear that this entire article is Christian theology about Jewish religious texts, and that the Jews and

612:

Seems to me that we can sort alphabetically, or by relevance. Sorting alphabetically has the advantage that it avoids excessive squabbling and scales well, should the list grow. Sorting by relevance may be of some benefit, but if no consensus can be formed then an alphabetical sort may offer more

321:

Additionally, the contruction to which Clinkophonist particulary refers, when the yud/jod/johdh appears in the middle or at or near the end of the word, we commonly see it translated as having a 'y' sound, such as Hallelujah (as written in Hebrew text at Psalm 104:35 and in 23 other places in the

6187:

of a Jewish word! We all know that the Hebrew and the English alphabets are different from each other, and that there is no direct equivalence between some of the letters. And that every English version (customarily written with a J) of any Hebrew name is 'incorrect' in that it is not the Hebrew

5798:

Try to remember that there will be people reading this article who do not know Hebrew, much less what a vowel point is. It would be nice if such readers could have at the first a sentence that is understandable, rather than an exercise in postmodernist incomprehensibility. (For the postmodernist

4123:

I do not have more authority over this article than any Knowledge editor. I put the tag on the article in the hope that pointing out a problem in strong terms would result in an effort to improve the article. There are two other tags that are not my doing. The tag for the AfD was put there by an

3322:

Christians and non-Christians. It has no theological basis and is never covered, for example, in a (Christian) theology textbooks, nor covered in theology courses. It would cease to be any issue if-- for example-- all English speakers began using other langages, langages without a word with like

306:

If the first Hebrew letter of the name is the yud/yod/yohdh, then it seems that that letter is often translated as a 'J', followed by a vowel. This is true of such names as in Japheth, Jacob, Jerusalem, Joshua, etc. The are over 170 Hebrew bible names which are translated this way. Writing those

6369:

In the article there are many references to the extensive usage of the word 'Jehovah'. However, if the article is only concerned with etymology and pronunciation, then such references would appear to be largely irrelevant here, and should more appropriately be moved elsewhere, perhaps to a Wiki

4965:

In the Revised Version of 1885, Jehovah is retained in the places in which it stood in the A. V., and is introduced also in Exod. vi. 2, 6, 7, 8; Ps. lxviii. 20; Isa. xlix. 14; Jer. xvi. 21; Hab. iii. 19. The American committee which cooperated in the revision desired to employ the name Jehovah

4272:

Perhaps part of that problem is that most people who will come to read the article are likely to understanding "Jehovah" as a name referring to God. But the article does not discuss that. Instead it launches into a rather detailed discussion of the different possible ways of pronouncing Y-H-V-H

2362:

I just took a look at this article's reference list. It is not as good as might be hoped, and does not seem to give the article strong scholarly support. For instance #4 is a link to a forum with a statement by someone called Peter Kirk. But, after doing some searching on Google, I can not find

1411:

Adon (אֲדוֹן) is the Hebrew word for lord. Adoni is the possessive form of the same word, and means "my lord". Jews do not, ever, include vowel marks with YHVH (יהוה), neither is the name pronounced. Since this article is written from a Christian point of view, the same rules do not necessarily

920:

I had more than 24 semester hours of theology at Xavier University in Cincinnati, including numerous courses on Old Testament. I also took some courses in Hebrew from the Athenaeum in Cincinnati. One of my professors was the first Roman Catholic nun to get a doctorate in scripture from Hebrew

252:

And when the accounts of Jesus' life were written in the Greek language, the inspired writers did not try to preserve the original Hebrew pronunciation. They rendered the name in Greek, I·e·sous′. Now, in the wider world, it is rendered differently according to the language of the reader of the

249:

becomes Spain etc . So, returning to the differences of opinion regarding the 'proper' pronounciation of Bible names, let's consider the more widely known name "Jesus", a Jew living in Israel. How was 'Jesus' pronounced in Bible times? We don't know, but if we can draw any clue from modern day

5664:

Malcolm has complained about the previous unreadability of this article. Malcolm specifically complains about the use of Hebrew font in the previous Introductions. Malcolm notes that the average reader, who has no knowledge of Hebrew, would be unlikely to understand this article as previously

5165:

With regard to the "minority opinion" coda, I think (per WP:NPOV) it is useful to have a mention of this in the lead if it's going to be examined further down in the article; and also it should take away any contentiousness from the rest of the lead. In terms of references, AFAICS it's merely

4987:

Looking what has happened recently I see that Malcolm removed his tag - good - Jehovah is not a subject that belongs to Jewish tradition. But people are struggling in strange, unencyclopedic ways. I read in some version: "Hebrew scholars believe that". That is not the scholarly way to put such

878:

There is an inherent conflict of interest involved here in keeping this article as a part of the JW Project. Knowledge should be about what is true and accurate, and despite what the Witnesses passionately believe, no serious student of Hebrew thinks that the divine name was ever vocalized as

857:

Using a blockquote to quote an entire appendix, entered as an entire subsection of an article on Knowledge is almost certainly still a copyright violation. Unless there is no other way to convey the same message, there is no valid reason for using the entire passage. The information should be

6151:

type style used in Knowledge articles. The problem is that with that particular configuration of following letters, the Helvetica capital "I" reads as a small "l" (that is, a small "l" as in "look"). I don't know of any way to solve the problem, but thought it might be worth pointing it out.

927:

I don't want to deprive the Witnesses of an opportunity to state what they believe, but it should be clearly labeled as such. What do the folks behind the JW project think about splitting off the sections which give their point of view and calling the second article "Jehovah: What Jehovah's

5314:

OK - the somewhat silly Afd expired, and Jheald greatly improved the intro. Good. I removed the POV tag: if I understand correctly it was added by Carlaude who gave as main motivation that the interpretation of the vocalization (namely as Adonai, rather than as vowels belonging to YHWH) was

2031:

Is this correct? I am not frum, and may not understand tradition correctly. But it is my understanding that if the text is to be read Elohim, then Elohim is written; and if Y-H-V-H is written there would be a silent space in the reading, or it would be replaced with Adonai. It is also my

3463:

putting such a statement there. What is the problem? If, for some reason, my wording of this is offensive to other editors, then feel free to suggest an alternative. But please remember, "Jehovah" -- the name of this article -- is not Jewish; but, rather, is a Christian name for God.

6543:

the "IAH" in Isaiah refers to -jah (see also -ijah), the short from of Jehovah (English translation) therefore, as 270 other name's meaning in the bible, it refers to Jehovah. 270+ names man, try looking at the specific articles. here is a bad example: Adonijah - "Jehovah is Lord"

5693:

I think Malcolm's complaint is more directed at the sentence structure of the first sentence, than its content. I don't think he's calling for the Hebrew to be removed, and I don't think anybody else is either. And I repeat, that IMO removing the Hebrew letters makes the article

3340:

be pronounced-- that is a belief-- but does not seem to be a theological belief unless you believe God was involed in the pronounation being lost. Even in this case it cannot be said to be "established Jewish" belief since the Jewish Encyclopedia states the pronounation was never

1044:, which yields "Jehovah". Even the addition of those vowel points is misguided, the transliteration is not. Finally, in any case this is not what the cited reference is talking about, so I was correct to revert Carlaude's edit. Thus, it was unfair for him to claim that this was a 2149:

NB: A serious problem this article is that it discusses Jewish tradition from a Christian POV; and that is done without explanation that the POV is Christian, and that it contradicts Jewish belief. If that problem is not be corrected, nomination for deletion might be justified.

5130:

With regard to the JW quote, I'd prefer to keep it as it is. I think it's nicely written, and gives a good nutshell sense of why many people (not just JWs) might be happy to use "Jehovah" in their worship, regardless of whatever might or might not have been an ancient Hebrew

3675:

misunderstood the common Qere perpetuum of the partial vowel points of Adonai, written together with the consonants of the Tetragrammaton YHWH (in order to indicate that written YHWH should be pronounced aloud as "Adonai", as was the usual Jewish practice at the time of the

4164:

While you may not have any more authority over this article than any other Knowledge editor, you probably have a greater understanding of what a Knowledge Artcle;Jehovah looks like, that discusses Jehovah from a Christian point of view, rather than from a Jewish point of

4945:

It is an unprofitable inquiry who first made this blunder; probably many fell into it independently. The statement still commonly repeated that it originated with Petrus Galatinus (1518) is erroneous; "Jehova" occurs in manuscripts at least as early as the I4th century.

1720:

My own concern is that if this article is part of WikiProject Jehovah's Witnesses that the introduction should be written to make that clear. An article should be balanced, but not to the extent that it sounds like politically correct nonsense (for instance, like this

4941:

When Christian scholars began to study the Old Testament in Hebrew, if they were ignorant of this general rule or regarded the substitution as a piece of Jewish superstition, reading what actually stood in the text, they would inevitably pronounce the name Jěhōvāh.

325:

Interestingly the biblically abbreviated name 'Jah' (e.g. in Psalm 68:4 (KJV) and 25 other places in the Hebrew scriptures) also starts with a yud/yod/yohdh. In this case it is followed by the Hebrew letter 'heh'. The name Jah is well known in the English speaking

1124:. The vocalisation belongs to a different set of consonants, not the consonants of the Tetragrammaton. Reading the Tetragrammaton with this vocalisation is a mistake. The vocalisation is there as an indication that the word "Adonai" is what should be spoken. 6431:

2682:

User:Anthony Appleyard redirected Tetragrammaton here because he has merged all of the content in Tetragrammaton here. Now, I personally don't have an ax to grind on this issue but I'm concerned that those who do will object to having Tetragrammaton redirect to

2711:

I don't object to there being separate articles on Jehovah and Yahweh but since these are both English transcriptions/pronounciations of the Tetragrammaton, I think we should keep the Tetragrammaton article even if it doesn't discuss Jehovah or Yahweh in much

5567:

Early English translators, unacquainted with Jewish tradition, read this "Hybrid" word as they would any other Hebrew word, and transliterated it (in very few places, namely those where the Name itself was referred to) into the English language of that day.

89:

to the extent of being almost comical. In fact, it's wide usage is not considered offensive by traditional Jews precisely because of its inaccuracy; hence it is deemed as not taking God's name in vain. It does, however, do injustice to the Hebrew language.

6421:

4949:

The form Jehovah was used in the 16th century by many authors, both Catholic and Protestant, and in the 17th was zealously defended by Fuller, Gataker, Leusden and others, against the criticisms of such scholars as Drusius, Cappellus and the elder Buxtorf.

331:

However, I am not aware of any Hebrew Scripture proper name that starts, in the Hebrew, with a yud/yod/yohdh, that is translated in the KJV to an English version of that name but that begins with a 'Y' in the English text. But, as always, I may be wrong!

5902:

The Jewish issue is in effect that the Masoretes not only did not provide early Christian translators with a Hebrew Text that preserved God's Name accurately, but that the Masoretes deliberately printed the Tetragrammaton with the improper vowel points.

4296:‎ from the introductory sentence. Seeker, I really think you added things back to the introduction that belong in the main body of the article. Like the reference to the Jewish and Catholic encyclopedias. Introductions need to be short and to the point. 3481:

Malcolm's points seem reasonable to me - the separate existence of this article is surely only justifiable if it is indeed the/a Christian view or history of of an originally Jewish topic, where the other article represents the Jewish tradition/topic.

6124:

There's enough of substance to discuss in the opening as it is. This spelling variation is a detail, aptly dealt with (as it is now) in a footnote, or later on. But in the lead it would just be a distraction, as irrelevant as the difference between

4925:

_____________________________________________________________________________________ JEHOVAH (Yahweh), in the Bible, the God of Israel. "Jehovah" is a modern mispronunciation of the Hebrew name, resulting from combining the consonants of that name,

2560:

I believe that an attempt was made to eliminate the possibility of there being a Jehovah Article at that time, but the final decision was to eliminate the "Tetragrammaton" Article, and to create a separate "Jehovah" Article, and a separate "Yahweh"

6441:

2111:

This article is about reading of the name of God in Hebrew scripture. For other renderings of the name, see Tetragrammaton. For the deity of monotheistic religions, see God. For other uses of Jehovah, see Jehovah (disambiguation). See also: Yahweh

916:

6) There are also misleading references to Brown-Driver Briggs, throughout the article which, as a work of serious non-fundamentalist scholarship, is clearly aware of the Q're Perpetuum and does not intend to support the "Jehovah" transliteration.

3971:

Obviously in this situation, an intro from the Jewish Encyclopedia would be inappropriately POV. I'll have some time in a few days to do a complete rewrite, and we'll see how it stands up to criticism. I'm also gathering some scholarly citations.

6516:

The article says, under 'Modern Usage of the rendering Jehovah':- "Similarly well-established English substitutions for Hebrew personal names include Joshua, Isaiah, Jesus, and others, the precise pronunciations for many of which have also been

3666:

StAnselm, why did you add the citation tag to that? All I tried to do in that edit was add some explanation to make an unreadable paragraph readable. The phrase that you tagged was there before my first edit to this article, and is not my doing:

585:"El" is distinct, as a word, from "YHWH", and therefore this article should only cover the latter, ie. it should exclude discussion of "Allah". But, since "El" is closely connected in the Bible to "YHWH", the See Also section should include both 2495:

You are not limited to using material that is out of copyright. Any book, journal, or site can be paraphrased or summarized and the source (with book page number and ISBN number, journal issue no. and page no., or site URL) given as a reference

2363:

anything to indicate Peter Kirk's qualifications, or if he has published in scholarly journals on this subject. Or, in #5, two sources are shown next to eachother, but there is no way to know what either source is -- or what they prove. etc...

1076:. "...those vowels are for the vocalisation "Adonai" (Lord) for the that Jews substitute for saying the Tetragrammaton aloud. It is was only this misunderstanding that lead people to use them with the Tetragrammaton to read it as Jehovah." 370:

Is it so surprising that a reader looking at this article may wish to look up Allah or God subsequently. These are related topics and I have put them back in the very inoccuous position "see also". What possible harm can there be in that?

1808:

Yes, Knowledge articles seem to undergo a process of continual change. I think that an explanation of the the article's Christian orientation in the introduction would help in avoiding misunderstanding or accusations of misrepresentation.

185:

Think again, it's like asking is the Bible important; there are roughly 270 other names in the Bible that refer to the translated (not transliterated) name of the god of the Bible. And they themselves have also been translated using the

4398:

to refresh our minds as to what's required in a lead section. Then we talk about the essential points that need to be in it, and what should be left to another section. Because the article is steadily getting worse, if that's possible.

581:

the bible gives to God. When you see "the LORD" in the KJV its usually translating "YHWH", when you see "God" its usually translating "El". "El" can also be a name - a different name to YHWH - but the bible uses it as an improper noun.

5887:"Frankly the difference between Iehovah, Iehouah and Jehovah is detail -- just a matter of the typography being used. IMO, it may have a place lower down the article, but in the lead it only serves to get in the way of the main story." 5425:

Editing this article is something I am not inclined to try again....unless I return the tag that I took off a few days ago. If you think my observation about the lead sentence is wrong, as well it may be, I am sure you will ignore it.

4191:

However I am beginning to feel that the evidence found in the Jewish Encyclopedia probably makes a stronger case against the name "Jehovah" because it is the Masoretes who added the points to YHWH, and the Masoetes who were themselves

5554:

By long tradition, in modern Jewish culture the Tetragrammaton is not pronounced. Instead when the reverent Jewish reader observes the above mentioned vocalization of the Tetragrammaton, he or she substitutes the Hebrew word Adonai.

2091:, I see that Bereishit (genesis) 15.2 haShem has vowel marks. But I also see that the following use of haShem does not. The article gives the incorrect impression that Y-H-V-H always has vowel marks, when in fact it is extremely rare. 1787:

Jehovah's Witnesses do not appear to have made too many edits in this article. Generally speaking this article presents the name Jehovah as it is believed by Southern Baptists in the USA, and by KJVO Christians all over the world.

310:

In some Hebrew names, such as Ishbosheth (as it is written at 2 Samuel 2:12 in English), the initial Hebrew letter in the Hebrew word is actually an aleph, followed by a yud/yod/yohdh, but traditionally this name has been written as

6119:. Often the spelling may even vary in the course of a few lines; and may vary quite arbitrarily even at the same verse from one printing to the next. They're just equivalent ways of writing "Jehovah" in the typography of the time. 5913:

I believe that the Iehovah, Iehouah and Jehovah information definitely should be explained in the introduction, and that the image of the 1761 edition of the King James Bible helps to more clearly explain the Jehovah controversy.

1433:(non-Jewish/ Christian) point of view. While the errors were made and carried on by Christians, many Christians are already are fully aware for the errors in this article. There is nothing particularly Christian about its view. -- 307:

names with an initial J is current English usage, in the Bible, literature, the media and in Encyclopedias. It is pronounced the same way as the J in the English word 'jam', i.e. pronounced like the soft 'g' in Germany/gerund/etc.

6726:

According to the preface, this is because the translators felt that the "Jewish superstition, which regarded the Divine Name as too sacred to be uttered, ought no longer to dominate in the English or any other version of the Old

2498:]. Of course, you can not copy a page out of a copyrighted book and paste it into a Knowledge article, but (as I said), paraphrasing and summarizing -- with sourcing -- is okay. So go ahead and use the best sources you can find. 2257:

This article received Knowledge's "seal of approval" about 12 months ago, when Knowledge Articles: "Jehovah" and "Yahweh" and "Tetragrammaton" were all analyzed and changes were made while one or more Knowledge Moderators looked

2692:

It is for this reason that I would have preferred that Anthony discuss his plans before embarking on this heroic effort of merging the content forks. (which I much applaud since I wouldn't have had the knowledge or interest to

2335:

Stay calm. Nothing is about to go off the edge of the cliff. Disputes over article content are rather common, and usually the problems are resolved....as long as everyone is acting in good faith, which I am sure is so here.

4237:

And then, if after you make the correction, you could come back to this TALK section, and explain just what you had done, that had made this into a better article, or possibly into a more neutral article, from your point of

889:

2) As far as I can tell, serious scholars *are* in agreement as to the slight differences in the pointing between Jehovah and Adonai. It's explained well later in the article in the section on Kethib and Q're Perpetuum.

5103:

6. The sentence "Early English translators, unacquainted with Jewish tradition, read this word as they would any other word..." needs a citation. The idea has appeared in the article before, but was never substantiated.

1870:

has no position on this. I certainly hope you don't think that the Southern Baptist Convention is even mostly KJVO. KJVO baptists would be find the SBC a bit liberal. You must be thinking of fundamentalist baptist or

263:

is a more familiar form in the English language. It is in English Bibles, it is used in this way in English hymns, poetry and literature, and it has also been “naturalized” in a similar form into most other languages.

1728:

without -- for instance -- every agnostic, and atheist objection given complete exposition, or all the objections of Neopagans may have to monotheism, because those views can be fully discussed in their own articles.

1631:

It says a little more than that. I have no wish to get involved in editing this article, but just responded to a question....which I have done to the best of my ability. I have noticed that this article is a part of

2702:

I think a more neutral stance would be to have Jehovah and Yahweh merged into Tetragrammaton. Among other issues, if there is no Tetragrammaton article, how do we link to Greek transcriptions of the Tetragrammaton?

5973:"Iehovah" and "Iehouah" are just different typographical conventions of their time for writing the word "Jehovah". That's the kind of unnecessary, complicating detail that can go much further down the article. 5622:(4) Removal of the Hebrew. I think this is a big mistake. Given that the article goes on to discuss in some detail the detailed consonants and vowel points, I think it's useful to show what they look like - 2409:

Most editors are limited to posting material that is in the public domain. Encyclopedia's written in the early 1900's or previously can be freely quoted in Knowledge's Articles, because they are in the public

6461:

A major controversy surrounds the name "Jehovah". As noted above the editors of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica immediately deal with this controversy in the introduction of their article:JEHOVAH (Yahweh).

3933:

JEHOVAH is a mispronunciation (introduced by Christian theologians, but almost entirely disregarded by the Jews) of the Hebrew "Yhwh," the (ineffable) name of God (the Tetragrammaton or "Shem ha-Meforash").

2809:

Are you now going to delete the Knowledge Article: Jehovah and start anew by editing the present Knowledge Article:Yahweh, which appears to have the same issues that you did not approve of in this Article?

2842:, in what way does this article differ from the Yahweh article? So far I have not gotten an answer to that question, and the main differences I see is that it is not written as well, and is less neutral. 6596:

The article should maybe try to explain the identification of Jehovah with the Trinity in 99 % of Christian churches (ie Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Reformed, etc). This would simply show what the

5545:

was used. All three of these English translation were accurate in the first year they were written, as the English language was in a state of flux during the period 1530 A.D. through 1671 A.D. and even

1764:

This Article started out presenting a Protestant Christian view of the name "Jehovah". Thus the article notes that Tyndale believed that God's name was actualy "Iehouah", when he wrote his Pentateuch.

909:

scripture scholarship after Vatican II. No serious modern Catholic scripture scholar would agree with the assertion, without serious qualifications, that Jehovah is the name of God. See for example,

5612:(2) "which is found at Exodus 6:3 in a 1671 A.D. edition of the King James Bible" This is completely gratuitous, unnecessary text given that the information can already be found in the image caption. 1482:

one knows what the vowel marks would be either. Even writing the word without the vowel marks on paper is rather restricted, and usually would be written with dashes separating the letters (י-ה-ו-ה).

2196:

I certainly don't think that this Article should be deleted, because of how it is presently written. There seem to be other options to deal with this issue, before the deletion option is considered.

5443:

___________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________________ Below are two lead sentences

2768:. The editor who fielded it apparently agreed with me and redirected the article, but without mentioning it here on the talk page. If other editors disagree with the redirect, it can be undone here 6314:

Jewish teaching is that the Masoretes pointed "YHWH" with those particular vowel points mentioned in the previous sentence, only to indicate to the Jewish reader that he or she was to read "Adonai"

1275:

if they were ignorant of this general rule or regarded the substitution as a piece of Jewish superstition, reading what actually stood in the text, they would inevitably pronounce the name Jěhōvāh.

3748:

If you are unhappy with the edit, improve it. But don't blame this mess on me. This was, and remains, one of the most poorly written articles I have seen. It comes close to being unintelligible.

314:

The English spelling 'Ezekiel' is another way that a Hebrew name beginning with a yud/yod/yohdh has traditionally been translated into English. This time the yud/yod/yohdh is rendered as an 'eh'.

5076:

3. The last paragraph needs to referenced or cut, of course. But it's probably such a minority opinion that it doesn't deserve a place in the intro, and thus should appear later in the article.

2432:

However posting copyrighted material, without the authors approval is not allowed on Knowledge, as far I know. Some editors may post copyrighted material, but it is contrary to Knowledge Rules.

6297:

Jehovah is considered to be a mispronunciation of God's name, because the Jewish people teach that the Hebrew Vowel points from which the letters "e" and "o" and "a" have been transliterated

5206:

Early English translators of the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text, mistakenly believed that יְהֹוָה was "a Hebrew name that was preserved in Hebrew Scriptures "that were given by inspiration of God."

4817:, and this notice must not be removed, until the discussion is closed. For more information, particularly on merging or moving the article during the discussion, read the guide to deletion. 5653:

However this article has just been through a "Nomination for Deletetion" where it can be observed that some editors who added comments noted that "readability" was an issue, AT THAT TIME.

5910:

considered mispronunciations of the name of the God of Israel according to Jewish tradition, the reader is more likely to truely understand what the Jehovah controversy is all about.

3699:

Well, I thought we agreed that it wasn't OK before. The article has had problems for quite a while. Hey - we need these citations! Please don't remove the tags willy-nilly. Of course,

4995:

Also: for some "God" is very well-defined. But an encyclopedia is not religious, and plain "God" cannot be used. Some epithet is needed. (The God of the Bible, the God of Israel, ...)

6262:

about the nature and character of God. As the hatnote explicitly disclaims, that is treated in other articles, elsewhere. Rather, this article is specifically about Jehovah as a

385:

You are the one who started with the deleting. "Iah disambiguous" has nothing to do with this article, and you deleted the prefex search on "Jeho," "iah," and "ijah" which are all

5559:

In places where Adonai already immediately follows or immediately precedes the Tetragrammaton Elohim is substituted. In this instance the Tetragrammaon is voacalized differently.

3671:

Jehovah is an English transliteration of יְהֹוָה, which occurs 6518 times in the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text of 1525 A.D., which underlies the Old Testament of the King James Bible.

1146:‎? I labelled the adjective "misguided" as dubious, not because Jehovah is a valid pronunciation of the Divine Name, but because as a transliteration, it merely indicates how 1866:

Again-- many "Southern Baptists in the USA" are already are fully aware for the errors in this article. There is nothing particularly Southern Baptist about its view and the

3332:

I am not sure what you even mean by " established Jewish theology... Y-H-V-H is not pronounced." since it seems dubious no matter how I try to understand it. Current Jewish

2667:

The following text can be found in the "Redirecting Tetragrammaton to Yahweh" section of Talk Knowledge Article:Yahweh: It was written by Richard on 16:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

910: 4394:

There have been an awful lot of edits made to the introduction now, but it doesn't look like we're agreed as to what should be there. Any thoughts? How about we all read

1781:

Under the direction of a Knowledge Moderator, attempts were made to limit any mention of the name "Yahweh" in this article, since "Yahweh" had it's own separate article.

6275:

You are welcome to propose the article for deletion if you don't think the subject is worthy of discussion; but somehow I don't think that would achieve consensus... --

5407:

But be this as it may, if you think you can say things more clearly, in a way that is both correct and easier to understand, please go ahead: anyone can edit Knowledge.

3833:

Hopefully this new edit of the Introduction will resolve some of the issues that have been made against this article. More editing of the introduction will be necessary.

3673:

According to many scholars Jehovah (a.k.a. Iehouah and Iehovah) is a pseudo-Hebrew form, which was mistakenly created when Medieval and/or Renaissance Christian scholars

1772:

And this article notes that there were 3 men who supported the name "Jehovah" in the 17th century, as well as 5 men who opposed the name "Jehovah" in the 17th century.

1339:

The statement still commonly repeated that it originated with Petrus Galatinus (1518) is erroneous; "Jehova" occurs in manuscripts at least as early as the I4th century.

2542:

You're missing what went on about a year ago. The Knowledge Article Tetragrammaton and possibly a Yahweh Article that included Jehovah information existed at that time.

5166:

summarising material considered in more detail further down the article. But any additional direct reference(s) to RSs setting out this POV would of course be good.

1910:, which focuses on the biblical story, without any even mentioning the lack of archaeological support for the story of Exodus. That information is in another article: 832: 4277:

also assuming that readers understand something about Hebrew and the use of vowel points in Hebrew (which few will understand without a good background explanation).

253:

Bible. Spanish Bible readers encounter Jesús (pronounced Hes·soos′). Italians spell it Gesù (pronounced Djay·zoo′). And Germans spell it Jesus (pronounced Yay′soos).

6394:

JEHOVAH (Yahweh), in the Bible, the God of Israel. "Jehovah" is a modern mispronunciation of the Hebrew name, resulting from combining the consonants of that name,

5607:-- just a matter of the typography being used. IMO, it may have a place lower down the article, but in the lead it only serves to get in the way of the main story. 5220:

The entire controversy about "Jehovah" is based on what appears to be a false belief by early Christian translators that יְהֹוָה "was given by inspiration of God".

3772:

I do want to add that your making this article even more POV than it was when I started editing is a serious mistake. Please think for a while before you do that.

2901:

Do you yourself feel that the Knowledge Article:Jehovah should be deleted, even though you yourself are aware of how easy it is to correct a neutrality problem.

1463:, all include vowel points with the Tetragrammaton. A torah scroll will not include vowel marks with YHVH, but only it does not include any vowel points at all. 1236:

JEHOVAH (Yahweh) in the Bible, the God of Israel. "Jehovah" is a modern mispronunciation of the Hebrew name, resulting from combining the consonants of that name,

4178:

In many cases the evidence against Jehovah found in the Jewish Encyclopedia, looks very much like the evidence against Jehovah found in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

1840:

This isn't a "Christian" article or a "JW" article (though as their tags indicate, those projects may have a strong interest in this article). Rather, this is a

6362:

Thank you enlightening me about the purpose of of article entitled 'Jehovah'. In my ignorance I thought it was about Jehovah! If the article is solely about the

5899:

In my opinion, explaining the source of Iehovah, Iehouah and Jehovah explains more clearly what the so called controversy about the name Jehovah is all about.

351:

I looked that the article on Allah and it is just as I thought, it's the arabic word for God. So according to the fact that this is an article about the hebrew

4721:

At this stage, if things do not improve within the next three days, I intend to blank the page and start the article again. That will be 04:00, 25 April, UTC.

4049:

Once again I have made an attempt at writing a NPOV Introduction. Hopefully Malcolm will offer some input on what he would like the Introduction to look like.

660:

Pasting large chunks of material is "NOT ENCYCLOPEDIC". Referencing yes, but not whole pages cut-and-pasted. I have moved the NWT quote here for preservation.

882:

As it is currently written (29 Feb 2008 14:31 EST) the first section of this article has many misleading, inaccurate and downright false allegations in it.

3436:

Apparently Jewish persons who read the Jewish Encyclopedia, have enough knowledge of Biblical Hebrew to understand the explanations found in this Article.

5626:. All the discussion about the "Tetragrammaton" is much clearer and more concrete if we show that it means four Hebrew letters, and what they look like. 1952:

An article which clearly, accurately, and fairly describes all the major points of view will, by definition, be in accordance with Wikpedia's NPOV policy.

1959:

Since the neutrality of the Knowledge Article:Jehovah is being disputed, a question that the editors of the Knowledge Article:Jehovah need to answer is:

1633: 4992:

certainly isn't. Not: was used centuries ago, but is used today. (Things already improve by just starting a new sentence: ... for God. It was used ...)

5079:

4. Looking ahead, I was thinking we could rewrite the rest of the article under four headings: i) Linguistics, ii) History, iii) Usage, iv) Criticism.

554:

I'd suggest keeping the list at the long length but doing it in alphabetical order. Any other order will result in a thirty years war you don't want.--

5519: 5452: 1005:" (Lord) for the that Jews substitute for saying the Tetragrammaton aloud. It is was only this misunderstanding that lead people to use them with the 2750:

I still do not understand what intent differentiates this article from the Yahweh article. To me it appears that they are discussing the same thing.

6221:, the point is that the consonants are being taken from one Hebrew word, but the vowels are coming from a completely different word altogether. So 4654:

and Christians as a mispronunciation, Despite this, it has found a place in Christian liturgy and theology. It is the regular English rendition of

2035:

This article should be read through by someone knowledgeable, and if necessary corrected, to make sure (at minimum) it does not represent Judaism.

597:

the bottom, since Theophory in Yah/Yahweh/Jehovah (eg. Jo-nathan / Nethan-yahu) is not particularly different from theophory in El (eg. Nathan-iel)

5931:

Actually, nowhere is this Iehovah/Iehouah referenced, so I think you're making all of it up. Indeed, the article contradicts itself on this point:

3508:

Revision as of 23:37, 18 April 2008 (edit) (undo)Malcolm Schosha (Talk | contribs) (changed intro to more balanced and neutral version)Newer edit →

3205:

Rather engaging in an edit war, I think it would be better to discuss, and resolve the issues here before returning the paragraph to the article.

6183:

of the Hebrew name! How many dictionaries and Encyclopedias in articles about 'Jesus' start by explicitely declaring that the name is actually a

5217:

It seems to me that יְהֹוָה most defintely does need to be discussed in the Introduction of this Artcle, as well as in the Body of the Article.

1906:

Articles always have an orientation or focus. If you think this particular does not, you are deluding yourself. Or, for example, the article on

1512: 4954:

names Jehovah-jireh, Jehovah-nissi, Jehovah-shalom; elsewhere, in accordance with the usage of the ancient versions, Jhvh is represented by

4884:

An explanation of the decision to not delete the Knowledge Article:Jehovah can be found on Skomorokh's Talk Page, in the "Jehovah" section:

4650:, thus creating a "hybrid form". The name Jehovah was seriously critiqued by John Drusius in 1604 A.D. and has since been regarded by both 3860:

According to many scholars, Jehovah is a pseudo-Hebrew form, which was mistakenly created by Medieval and/or Renaissance Christian scholars.

3899:

Maybe Malcolm, starting from scratch, would like to write a new Introduction to the Knowledge Article:Jehovah from a Jewish Point Of view.

2883:

Knowledge gives you every oportunity to edit this Article, so that it is just as neutral and well written as the Knowledge Article:Yahweh.

2021:, the alternative term vocalized for the Tetragrammaton is differently indicated by the vocalization markings, indicating that the reading 901:

of the Bible. Most scholars believe "Yahweh" to be most near the original pronunciation, but "Jehovah" is still more commonly used today.

4269:

Seeker, resolving the problem that my tag points to, will not do much good if no one who reads the article can actually understand it.

2570:

Anthony Appleyard wrote a new "Yahweh" Article plus a new "Jehovah" article, under the watchful eyes of one or more Knowledge moderators.

1142:‎ as the Divine Name, OR do you mean that it's a mistake to say that the origin of the name "Jehovah" is through an attempt to pronounce 322:

Hebrew scriptures), which is often pronounced as 'a-lay-lew-yah. The last syllable of Isaiah ('I-zay-yuh') would be another good example.

6642: 6606: 6013:

William Tyndale, in his 1530 translation of the first five books of the English Bible, at Exodus 6:3 renders the divine name as Iehovah.

5940:

William Tyndale, in his 1530 translation of the first five books of the English Bible, at Exodus 6:3 renders the divine name as Iehovah.

3878:

YHWH which indicate that written YHWH should be pronounced aloud as "Adonai", according to the usual Jewish practice at the time of the

905:

Also problematic is that Webster's Online Dictionary cites Knowledge as the source for this, so it is hardly an independent reference.

879:

Jehovah. The Q're Perpetuum is well known and is included, usually in the first chapter, of every Hebrew grammar I have ever seen.

5408: 5316: 4996: 3893:

The material I added was cut and pasted from another Knowledge Article, and further edited, but it appears that I made a poor choice.

3727: 1562:. It is not my personal POV, nor have I made it up. If you read a little about the subject from reliable Jewish sources you will see. 97: 3874:

of the partial vowel points which indicated that the name was to be pronounced "Adonai". written together with the consonants of the

5963:(ec) The image is good. But it has a clear caption, which clearly says what it is, and so doesn't need repeating in the main text. 2895:

Are you willing to fight for your right to continue improving the neutrality of this article, by continuing to edit this article.

2011:

culture the Tetragrammaton is not pronounced, instead the above vocalization indicates to the reverent Jewish reader that the term

1138:

Right - but the point here is whether we can say the transliteration is misguided. That is, do you mean that it's a mistake to use

1778:

This article notes how so many scholars believe that the vowel points of "Jehovah" are not the actual vowel points of God's name.

255:

Similarly, the rendering of the divine name differs from country to country. Some modern scholars and translators prefer the form

3902:

Meanwhile, I will go back to the drawing board myself, and re-evaluate what is allready available in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

2165:

I think most (but not all) of the article could or should be deleted, but if anyone is able rewrite it better please go ahead. --

1888: 921:

University. At neither of these Catholic institutions did I ever hear the name Jehovah except as an example of bad scholarship.

677: 3951:

Anyone should feel free to edit the Introduction of Artcle, or to edit any other part of the Article, as far as I am concerned.

2066:

for examples where the Tetragrammaton is written with a vocalisation indicating that Elohim (rather than Adonai) should be read.

4125: 3954:

I assume that Malcolm will make the final decision as to when and if this article is finally ready to meet some type of test.

2456:

Are you ready to start making the Knowledge Article:Jehovah a more accurate Article AND a more "Neutral Point of View" Article?

640:

quick yet suitable solution. Can any other editor help and intervene! The integrity of the article is at stake! Many thanks. --

235:

Jacob, Japheth, Jerico, Jesse, Joshua, Jethro, Jezebel, Jordan, Josiah, Judah, Jerusalem, Jeho, Jehoshaphat, Jeremiah, Job etc!

4205:

The Jewish people do seem to have more more authority in this issue, in that it is the Masoretes that pointed YHWH as they did

196:

I'm not a Jehovah's Witness or even a Christian, but as a child I was made to memorize "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be you

819:

This whole section above and below the request for help is what I am refering to, but if you need the exact diff here is is:

5533:(i.e. the Hebrew name of the God of Israel), which is found at Exodus 6:3 in a 1671 A.D. edition of the King James Bible . 1674:

I don't know what you mean by "presents that Christian teaching". The article needs to be neutral of course - it should say

6605:

belief is. In fact, Jehovah is usually identified with Elohim, and the Elohim are usually understood to imply the Trinity.

5148:

I also think, stylistically, the change of voice and change of pace works quite well as a transition to ending the section.

3651:

returning StAnselm's preferred version of the first two sentences, and I will also remove the tagg I added to the article.

2205:

I will try to determine who the Knowledge Moderator was, who was very much involved with this article, about 12 months ago.

6684:

in 1530 A.D., in Tyndale's translation of the Pentateuch (Exodus 6.3), from which it passed into other Protestant Bibles."

2839:

The redirect can be reverted if you feel it is unjustified. But, to paraphrase the first question from the Passover seder

981:

As I stated the other day with the POV tag. This page states many unimporant facts and omits important facts. For example

835:. The information may need to be rephrased, but addition of information is never considered unconstructive and, thus, not 831:

and should not be added to wikipedia. However, there is no policy on the usage of the blockqutoe template. Take a look at

593:. The YHWH-related terms should be above the El-related terms, but Allah should be near the top of the El-related terms. 3942:

Section #1 still contains the remainder of the text from the first paragraph of the Jewish Encyclopedia Article:Jehovah.

6706:

See Pages 209-210 of Gerard Gertoux's book: "The name of God Y.EH.OW.AH which is pronounced as it is written I_EH_OU_AH"

6465:

The editors of the Jewish encyclopedia of 1901-1906 likewise write about the controversy concerning the name "Jehovah".

6388:

The following text is from the introduction of the Article "JEHOVAH (Yahweh) found in the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica:

2027:

is to be used. Details of these vocalization markings differ between the various extant manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible.

5466:(i.e. the Hebrew name of the God of Israel), which is found at Exodus 6:3 in a 1671 edition of the King James Bible . 3143:

There is currently an editorial dispute concerning the neutrality of the introduction to the article. One version is:

2123:

The subject is "Hebrew scripture", but discussed in a way that is (according to my understanding) unacceptable to Jews.

1758:

The early edits of this Knowledge Article:Jehovah tried to deal with the early transliterations of the Hebrew spelling

126:

if you, think, about it. Especially since Jews had the nerve to skip the name and effectively read aloud "Lord, LORD."

3293:

not Jewish. As I said there is nothing wrong with an article that discusses Christian views on the subject, but there

1867: 801: 754: 6174:

If editors wish to make a clear statement in the lead sentence/paragraph that indicates that the form 'Jehovah' is a

3433:

The editors of the Jewish Encyclopedia, seem to see no problem in discussing vowel points in the first paragraphs.

6366:

of this English word, and the hatnote indicates that this would be so, then perhaps the article should be re-named.

6549: 5214:

and that יְהֹוָה most definitely does not represent the correct Hebrew spelling of the name of the God of Israel!

777: 727: 703: 541: 516: 398: 360: 209: 131: 38: 3336:

is that it is not pronounced, but it was pronounced (sometimes) when the temple was standing. If you mean that it

3288:

Well, there is the problem. In my view you are claiming something for this article that is unfounded. The article

2297:

However it is obvious that, in April, 2008, this Article is presently being being disputed on more than one issue!

4659: 3921:

I have added the first sentence from the Jewish Encyclopedia Article:JEHOVAH into the Knowledge Article:Jehovah.

3680:

I have italicized the part, already in the earlier version, that you tagged. Why was it okay before and bad now?

2231: 5676:‎ but the average Knowledge reader does not understand what the editors of the Jewish Encyclopedia are writing. 6157: 5836: 5831:

If you think my observation about the lead sentence is wrong, as well it may be, I am sure you will ignore it.

5807: 5431: 5377: 4870: 4282: 4133: 3777: 3753: 3685: 3656: 3468: 3302: 3252: 3210: 2847: 2776: 2755: 2651: 2530: 2503: 2387: 2368: 2341: 2243: 2155: 2137: 2040: 1919: 1884: 1814: 1734: 1641: 1567: 1540:

the Tetragrammaton. Rather, as Carlaude has indicated, it is used to indicate the word which should be spoken

1487: 1417: 1364:

I wonder if the moderators of Knowledge might believe that the 1911 Encyclopedia Article:Jehovah, shown above,

559: 302:

To expand and provide more comprehensive examples regarding customary English versions of Hebrew Bible names:-

5763:

I FULLY AGREE, BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT MALCOLM WILL ALLOW AN INTRODUCTION WITH HEBREW FONT IN IT TO STAND!!!!!

6646: 3865:

The mistake resulted from a misunderstanding of how Hebrew was read according to traditional Jewish practice.

2620:

You keep on mentioning these Knowledge Moderators! Who are these mysterious people? It's just us, my friend.

1636:, and I assume that it presents that Christian teaching. Whatever the case, the source should be made clear. 6610: 5490:

Well, the reference to the picture is rather silly - "Jehovah" was used in English Bibles long before 1671.

602: 469: 291: 1775:

This same article notes that a major controversy existed in the 17th century concerning the name "Jehovah"

1014:

I do not have time to overhaul this whole article but this basic information seems to be missing from it.--

6485: 6153: 5832: 5803: 5427: 5412: 5373: 5320: 5000: 4866: 4612: 4542: 4278: 4273:(although the Jews -- who's text it is all based on -- do not pronounce it), and without explaining that, 4129: 3773: 3749: 3731: 3681: 3652: 3464: 3298: 3248: 3206: 2843: 2772: 2751: 2647: 2526: 2499: 2383: 2364: 2337: 2239: 2151: 2133: 2036: 1915: 1892: 1810: 1730: 1637: 1563: 1483: 1413: 1203: 935: 893:

3) Referring to Strong's 1890 concordance is hardly buttressing the use of Jehovah by modern scholarship.

785: 738: 101: 76: 71: 59: 6090:

is also a source that verifies that "Iehovah" not "Jehovah" is found at Exodus 6:3 in the KJV of 1611.

6641:- Removed this drivel as it has nothing to do with the article and the writer is clueless to the topic. 6545: 6499: 6472: 6348: 6097: 6065: 5921: 5861: 5683: 5573: 5480: 5297: 5227: 5046: 4973: 4966:

wherever Jhvh occurs in the original, and editions embodying their preferences are printed accordingly.

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Are many of the complaints against the Knowledge Article:Jehovah the result of the use of Hebrew font?

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Of course that may not be true as far as the average person who reads the Knowledge Article:Jehovah.

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What can we learn from the first few sentences of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica Article:Jehovah.

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If one needs further explanation, very extensive explanations are given farther down in the article.

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Articles shouldn't have "orientations". All articles should aim to be NPOV. There is no place for

286:. Really, the significance of English translation only comes into play when you take a fair sample. 6203:

There's a qualitative difference between the two cases - I don't think your comparison bears water.

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see "name of the biblical God," and mis-read it as "biblical name for God" and argue that it's not

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Please share your thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.

3848:

The revision I added included the 3 sentences that presently seem to be causing so many problems!

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And yes, anyone can remove tags. People have been constantly removing the ones I've placed there.

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As have I. Look, this is really tough. Please persevere at this, and we'll get there in the end.

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However the editors of the Jewish Encyclopedia do recognize the Hebrew vocalization of Jehovah

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Hmm. Maybe I cannot judge, since I read Hebrew. On the other hand, I am assuming that so do you.

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I suspect so, and if do we just have to mark it as such in the AfD tag at the top of the page.--

1724:); and the Jehovah's Witnesses should be allowed to say what they have to say on the subject of 1509: 6331:‎ there are Christians on the planet earth that believe that the vowels of Jehovah are correct. 6566: 6375: 6193: 5551:

God of Israel. The same is true for the earlier English translations "Iehouah" and "Iehovah"

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This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Knowledge's deletion policy.

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StAnselm,I have merged your last edit of the Knowledge Article:Jehovah, with my last edit.

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Specifically, Allah is "al"+"Ilah", the Arabic for "the God", and "Ilah" is a form of "El",

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This text explains the issue concerning the name "Jehovah" without using any Hebrew Text.

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I have made another attempt at writing a NPOV Introduction to the Knowledge Article:Jehovah

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I am going to copy this to the article's talk page so that it can be discussed there also.

772:

No that doesn't quite cover it completely, are you saying this action above is vandalism??

6695:

The Law and the Prophets: Old Testament Studies Prepared in Honor of Oswald Thompson Allis

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the ineffable name Jhvh, it was deemed unnecessary to note the fact at every occurrence.

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1. I think we should summarise the JW quote (it can appear in full later in the article).

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However Malcolm did not think that this Introduction was acceptable, at least not to him,

3945:

The Introduction and the first section can be easily merged, by removing the "==" marks.

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The following statement can be found on the first page of the Knowledge Article:Jehovah:

720:(amend) and if the above removal should be condsidered vandalism if there is not a limit? 697:

and once I've gotten through it all your playing around will probably have to be undone.

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the ineffable name Jhvh, it was deemed unnecessary to note the fact at every occurrence.

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In the 7th paragraph of "Introduction to the Old Testament of the New English Bible",

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In the 7th paragraph of "Introduction to the Old Testament of the New English Bible",

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access to them, but the average reader would not be confused by the Hebrew Font used.

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_____________________________________________________________________________________

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the main differences I see is that it is not written as well, and is less neutral.

237:

Different langauges have different pronunciations for foreign proper nouns. The Dutch

6577: 6530: 6115:" rather than "have". It doesn't signify anything -- it's just their way of writing 5946: 5586:

Seeker, I've reverted your edit because IMO it made the page a lot *less* readable.

5509:

1611 A.D., long before "Jehovah" was written for the first time in about 1671 A.D. :

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about an aspect of Christian theology. It is about a liguistic (mis)understanding by

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Great. Now the article doesn't have an introduction. Let's resolve this soon. It's a

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apply....but it would be helpful to have a few words that make clear the difference.

1151: 1107: 1049: 1045: 1033: 985: 859: 6214:- but both are direct systematic transliterations of the same consonants and vowels. 718:

I'm having trouble finding if there is a limit of size on Knowledge for BlockQuotes?

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It should be noted that in the King James Bible of 1611 A.D. the English spelling

5353: 4934:"Lord," which the Jews substituted for the proper name in reading the scriptures. 3831:

Revision as of 18:18, 16 April 2008 (edit) (undo) Seeker02421 (Talk | contribs) (

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Of course ultimately the Knowledge Article:Tetragrammaton ended up being deleted.

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This was successful at first, but somewhat less successful as time went on.

1505: 1150:‎ winds up being pronounced, if you don't know the secret about these vowel signs. 840: 693: 641: 474: 372: 333: 265: 47: 17: 6570: 6538: 5935:

transcribed "Iehouah" (1530 A.D.), "Iehovah" (1611 A.D.), or "Jehovah" (1671 A.D.)

4570:

I think that the issue of there being three different English transliterations of

2580: 1102:, in this case, one that gives "Jehovah". I also asked him he would transliterate 508:

that shows that this user is insistant on placing "Allah" near the top of the list

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R. Laird Harris, "The Pronunciation of the Tetragram," in John H. Skilton (ed.),

6402:"Lord," which the Jews substituted for the proper name in reading the scriptures. 6327:

In spite of the concensus found in Jewish sources concerning the vowel points of

6147:

There is, unfortunately, a problem with reading "Iehouah" which results from the

5780:

If Malcolm will agree to an Introduction with Hebrew font, I certainy will agree.

5541:

was used, and in William Tyndale's Pentateuch of 1530 A.D., the English spelling

3422:

but it doesn't really say anything about the vowel point issue found in Jehovah.

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There are many other examples in this current article which I think is a mess.

896:

4) The reference to Webster's is extremely misleading. What it actually says is

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Do any editors here want the Knowledge Article"Jehovah" to resemble this text?

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which is a specific vocalized rendering of the unvocalized Tetragrammaton (i.e.

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was published over one hundred years ago, and is probably outdated scholarship.

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For the record, I indicated on Carlaude's talk page that this article refers to

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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The name "Jehovah" is honored as the actual name of God by Jehovah's Witnesses.

5265:

The first paragraph should begin with a straightforward, declarative sentence.

4504:

No, Seeker - is was certainly not "approved" by me - what gave you that idea?

3703:

is completely unreferenced as well. For example, who are the "many scholars"?

2059: 2055: 2051: 1560: 1452: 992:) who made a number of POV undos of my referenced material in the lead claims 6664: 5647:

Certainly any Knowledge editor has a right to edit or revert previous edits.

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by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it. For example:

2551:

Try looking in the history of the "Jehovah" article and the "Yahweh" article.

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However, this article is about one particular transliteration of "YHWH", the

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is a 2nd source that verifies that Tyndale wrote "Iehouah" at Exodus 6:3

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Maybe it is time for Knowledge Moderators to re-examine this situation!!!!!!

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If you have access to late "copyrighted" information on the Jehovah issue,

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What I said is correct according current usage that is taught by the rabbis

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s) of anything close to how the Name might originally have been pronounced.

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The first paragraph needs to unambiguously define the topic for the reader.

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Do we want to use this text as the Introduction of the Knowledge Article?

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In fact, at the top of the article's introduction, there is this statement:

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understanding that vowel marks are not used for Y-H-V-H in Torah scrolls.

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I think re-edit would improve this part of the article. Any suggestions?--

5197:

The issues about the three different English transliterations of יְהֹוָה

2017:

is to be used. In places where the preceding or following word already is

1511:? (Ten commandments again, note eg line 2 of the central column) Nor the 5394:‎ is, this is explained immediately: the name of God in the Hebrew Bible. 3023:

believe it is likely to represent the actual pronunciation of God's Name.

2889:

I assume you are aware that this article has been nominated for deletion,

1948:

Inherently, because of this, most articles on Knowledge are full of POVs.

1828: 1455:. Copies of the scriptures not for ritual use, eg the early handwritten 586: 535:

The section immediately above covers the requests content in more detail.

278:

On the other hand there's IsIAH, ConIAH, HezekIAH, etc. all of which use

259:. Is it, then, wrong to use a form like Yahweh? Not at all. But the form 6087: 6081: 5315:

insufficiently discussed. Today there is some clear discussion of this.

5210:

The Jewish point of view of this issue appears to be that יְהֹוָה was

5073:

2. It may still be inaccessible for someone who doesn't know any Hebrew.

3261:

No way! Large chunks of the Jewish Encyclopedia have been added. It can

2646:

I think it is obvious that, by "moderators", he means "administrators".

391:

This article is about reading of the name of God... .in Hebrew scripture

6225:

is *not* a systematic transliteration (not even modulo the swapping of

5256:

It should establish the context in which the topic is being considered,

5193:

Can this Article be accurate without using יְהֹוָה in the Introduction?

5188:

Can this Article be accurate without using יְהֹוָה in the Introduction?

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but I'll play along considering you probably have not read all of this:

574:. Ie. "Allah" isn't just "God", its the same "God" that the bible has. 5401:‎ is, this is explained immediately: a vocalized form of the previous. 4358:

acknowledges "up front" that "Jehovah" has the vowel points of Adonay.

2670:

At the time I thought that Richard was a moderator. Maybe he wasn't.

1762:‎ which occurs 6518 times in the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text of 1525 A.D. 784:

Sorry? What above removal are you referring to, if I may ask? Cheers,

6051:

in 1530 A.D., in Tyndale's translation of the Pentateuch (Exodus 6.3)

5744:

And I repeat, that IMO removing the Hebrew letters makes the article

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I put the Introduction back into your hands to do with as you wish.

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Not quite correct. See eg, the ten commandments in the Hebrew Bible,

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Examples of English Bible translations of the Hebrew letter 'yod' as

6484:

An image of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica text can be found here:

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I will sit back and watch, although if you decide to keep my edits,

3383:

The first sentence of the Article provides a definition of "Jehovah"

2525:

article need to exist as separate articles instead of being merged?

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When Christian scholars began to study the Old Testament in Hebrew,

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summarised, and simply provide a reference to the source material.--

4778:

during the time that this article is being considered for deletion.

4759:

during the time that this article is being considered for deletion.

4097:

I will provide the missing verification of text that I have added.

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I have corrected my "1761 date" error in the present Introduction.

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Feel free to edit the article, but the article must not be blanked

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It would be more accurate to say this article is written from one

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The word 'precise' should be replaced with the word 'original'.--

6258:

is an article about the biblical character. But this article is

6027:

The present Knowledge Article:Iehovah is incorrect in section #3

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The edit below was written before you edited your previous edit.

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I would truely like you to correct some portions of this article,

3368:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=J&artid=206

3042:

In the case of Jehovah, editors are trying to make the case that:

3001:

is a "Hebrew punctuation" proposed by the Hebrew scholar Gesenius

2069:

In each case, this avoids reading "Adonai Adonai" ("Lord Lord").

1206:

that it was a "blunder" by early Christian Scholars to pronounce

393:" and what does the Arabic word for God have to do with that?? - 5672:

The Jewish Encylopedia clearly explains the Jewish viewpoint on

4651: 4647: 4355:

I don't have the link, but I believe that the Watchtower Society

3845:

Apparently my revision did not live up to my stated hope above!

3297:

something wrong in saying that it represents also Jewish views.

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while probably every Hebrew scholar in the world is telling them

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And of course "Original Research" is not allowed on "Knowledge",

1945:

What we most commonly encounter are opinions from people (POVs).

1181:

Maybe we should use Knowledge terminology to discuss this issue.

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Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved.

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When the reader realizes that Iehovah, Iehouah and Jehovah are

5660:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jehovah

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things. The author of this article should talk with authority.

2765:

I put a request for editorial assistance on this question here

1933: 874:

Inherent Conflict: What about splitting this article into two?

411:

RfC: Can we get consensus on the "See Also" to avert vandalism?

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useful even (maybe especially) to people who don't read Hebrew

5473:

According to a long Jewish Tradition, add new text etc., etc.

1791:

The Jehovah's Witnesses view the name "Jehovah" differently.

510:

and keeping the list short, to the point of violating the 3RR.

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This text is in the Public Domain and can be freely copied.

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Can the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica Article:Jehovah help us?

4880:

Explanation of the decision to not delete the Article:Jehovah

4530:

The sentence that Malcolm added a request for citation tag to

4221:

where you would like to see something discussed from a Jewish

3924:

The Introduction to the Knowledge Article:Jehovah now reads:

3359:

_____________________________________________________________

2951:

in what way does this article differ from the Yahweh article?

1532:

The relevant point is that the vocalisation which is written

6680:, "The Reformers preferred Jehovah, which first appeared as 6002:

You quoted the present Knowledge Article:Jehovah as saying.

5617:(3) The apparently randomly floating left margin. Not good. 4224:

POV, that is presently being discussed from a Christian POV.

3386:

that possibly could be used in the Knowledge Article:Jehovah

3066:

In the case of "Yahweh", editors are trying to make the case

4431:

Below is the Introduction of the Knowledge Article:Jehovah,

2284:

The Knowledge Article:Yahweh was approved at the same time!

2271:

Content forking issues were dealt with about 12 months ago!

2003:

This is a paragraph from the introduction of the article:

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codexes, or printed copies of the Hebrew Bible; or printed

1106:‎ if he thought "Jehovah" was a misguided transliteration. 5268:

Readers knowing nothing at all about the article's subject

4834:

I hope to reply to you first post in the next few minutes.

4611:

is an English name for God which was first used after the

4541:

is an English name for God which was first used after the

1307:

It is an unprofitable inquiry who first made this blunder;

1231:

The editors of the Encyclopedia Britannica of 1911 wrote:

6736:

At Exodus 6:3, Psalm 83:18, Isaiah 12:2 and Isaiah 26:4.

6107:

You'll also find Bibles of this period tend to write eg "

4434:

as it looked early this morning, before I made any edits.

1678:

JWs use "Jehovah", and the reasons for and against that.

221:

Translation of biblical Hebrew proper names into English:

6529:

anglicized Hebrew name would be relevant in this list.--

6179:

says that the English name of the article is actually a

5445:

that might be a starting point for a new Introduction:

4958:(distinguished by capitals from the title "Lord," Heb. 3562:

I can only assume that you did not mean to imply that:

3084:

is found in no extant Hebrew text on :the planet earth.

2769: 1536:

the Tetragrammaton is not intended as the vocalisation

958:

Please see the discussion on the talk page.(April 2008)

827:

Hi there! Chances are, most "large quote" pastings are

820: 506: 190:

of the english language rather than the transliterated

4460:

this introduction had been previously approved by you.

3061:‎ (i.e. Jehovah), is a Hybrid name that means nothing. 3037:

when attempts are made to merge them into one article.

3034:

These two Articles are lightening rods for controversy

3028:

These two Articles are lightening rods for controversy

1040:‎ does indeed tranliterate - it is the Tetragrammaton 6053:, from which it passed into other Protestant Bibles." 4688:

I will take a look at Knowledge Article:Lead Section

3870:

The error was caused by a misreading of the common

2954:

So far I have not gotten an answer to that question,

2465:

If you are, why don't you start editing the Article?

1934:

The editors of "Knowledge:Describing Points of View"

1366:

might need to be written over in a more NPOV manner.

694:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Category:Quotation_templates

6521:(i) What relevance is the name Isaiah in this list? 3427:that is being discussed in this Knowledge article. 3420:Right there is a Jewish POV of the name "Jehovah", 2234:. This article seems to be a content fork from the 194:of the hebrew alphabet: Here is a small sample: . 5015:biblical, and the whole process will begin again. 3948:For the moment I am leaving the Article as it is. 3609:The Knowledge Article:Jehovah is an article about 3502:You made the following edit to the introduction. 3197:language name for God. According to long-standing 3089:To add to the problem it appears at least possible 2421:and you have permission from the author to post it 1204:the editors of the Encyclopedia Britannica of 1911 147:205, could you please provide a source? ... said: 114:So bold and brave a comment begs to be addressed: 5096:5. Of course, "generally agreed" needs to go per 4673:The name "Jehovah" is used as the name of God by 3918:________________________________________________ 3408:of the Hebrew "Yhwh," the (ineffable) name of God 3166:of the word "Adonai". According to long-standing 3017:in any Hebrew texts, but many scholarly sources, 833:Knowledge:Spotting possible copyright violations 6254:Also, perhaps a more fundamental point is that 4580:needs to be addressed somwhere in this Article, 2423:, Wikpedia allows you to post that information. 1875:. --Carlaude (talk) 16:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 1210:‎ as Jehovah (a.k.a Iehouah a.k.a. Iehovah-KJV] 4533:was definitely a sentence that I had written: 4100:It appears that ultimately the Introduction, 3810:is discussed exclusively from a Christian POV. 3375:found in the Jewish Encyclopedia of 1901-1906. 3372:The above URL takes you to the Article Jehovah 250:Hebrew, it certainly wouldn't have been Jesus! 85:The vocalization "Yahweh" is wildly improbable 6299:are not the actual vowel points of God's name 5982:Anyhow, let's see what other editors think. 4485:this information may not belong in the intro. 3807:The topic of dispute is that Jewish tradition 2007:Following long-standing tradition, in modern 1967:fairly describes all the major points of view 737:No, there is no size limit. Hope that helps, 8: 6738:Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible 3792:I appear to have made the Introduction worse 3405:but almost entirely disregarded by the Jews) 3097:may not be able to be derived from "Yahweh", 3079: 3070: 3009: 2993: 2987:of the Old Testament of the King James Bible 4888:http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Skomorokh 3411:(the Tetragrammaton or "Shem ha-Meforash"). 3201:tradition, YHWH (יהוה) is not pronounced. 955:The neutrality of this article is disputed. 355:of God, I deleted the changes adding Allah. 5200:found in early English Christian Bibles, 4670:such as "Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah". 4124:administrator who is also a member of the 3581:Yet that is how I read your Introduction. 3120:Anyone Know if this is the 2nd nomination? 3092:that theophoric names with "Yeho" prefixes 3069:that God's name is actually Yahweh (i.e. 2791:Fleetflame's redirect has gone in effect . 1309:probably many fell into it independently. 1202:It was definitely the "point of view" of 1028:OK, I need some help here. I can't revert 945:The neutrality of this article is disputed 4352:I don't believe that is a true statement. 5517: 5450: 4583:but not necessarily in the Introduction. 3100:while they can be derived from "Yehovah" 2974:Jehovah is a Biblical Hebrew name (i.e. 6697:(Presbyterian and Reformed, 1974), 224. 6663:Much of this paragraph was copied from 6656: 5242:In the Knowledge Article:Lead section:, 4791:See the text of the deletion tag below: 3851:The sentences I added are shown below: 3796:After Malcolm added the tag that said: 3591:the "unvocalized" Tetragrammaton (i.e. 1508:not a Jewish source? Nor the BL codex 1001:Those vowels are for the vocalisation " 5271:should immediately find the answer to 4128:, but any editor can initiate an AfD. 3020:possibly even the Jewish Encyclopedia, 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 6236:I trust you can see the difference. 5522:Ex 6.3 displaying Jehovah in 1671 KJV 5455:Ex 6.3 displaying Jehovah in 1671 KJV 5202:are all based on one misconception: 4772:However the blanking of this article 4104:will have to be approved by Malcolm, 3402:(introduced by Christian theologians, 1074:User_talk:StAnselm#Jehovah_.2F_Yahweh 7: 4756:Editing of this article is approved, 2579:You might try posting a comment to: 1965:"Does the Knowledge Article:Jehovah 6206:Sure, there's a difference between 4618:Jehovah is an attempt to pronounce 4292:Yes, for that reason, I got rid of 3080: 3071: 3010: 2994: 181:"Unknown Importance." - Excuse me?! 6045:"The Reformers preferred Jehovah, 5529:is an English translation of the 551:I'm responding to the RfC on this, 24: 6625:Christians, who are often called 6111:" rather than "Jesus", or often " 5462:is an English translation of the 5345:‎, the most frequent form of the 2721:--Richard 16:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 2087:Yes, looking in my Stone Edition 6716:Jewish Encyclopedia of 1901-1906 6620:"{{Identification with Trinity}} 5212:not given by inspiration of God. 5067:. Four thoughts arising from it: 4666:. It is also used in Christian 4662:, and occurs four times in the 4106:before any tags can be removed. 4102:and possibly the entire artcle, 3633:or do you see them as distinct? 2187:a neutral point of view" manner. 654: 29: 3267:the article needs to be neutral 3178:The other proposed version is: 1098:‎, which is the Tetragrammaton 572:the word the bible uses for God 6750:Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah 6740:(Iowa Falls: Word, 1994), 722. 6586:01:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC) 6539:01:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC) 5896:I strongly disagree with you. 4622:‎, a vocalized Hebrew form of 4482:if it is not in current usage, 3896:Maybe we can start over again 3550:YHWH (יהוה) is not pronounced. 3430:There is some common ground. 1100:with a particular vocalisation 1: 6615:08:56, 23 December 2008 (UTC) 6370:article entitled 'Jehovah'!-- 5093:Actually, I'll keep on going: 940:20:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC) 911:The New Catholic Encyclopedia 650:15:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC) 629:09:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC) 607:20:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC) 564:23:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC) 529:can we get consensus on the " 296:20:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC) 274:15:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC) 6398:with the vowels of the word 6088:The Bible Compared : Exodus. 6082:The Bible Compared : Exodus. 5828:However Malcolm also wrote: 5369:postmodernist generator see 4930:with the vowels of the word 3585:Did you mean to write that: 3380:Concerning the name Jehovah, 3193:‎, which is the most sacred 2800:What are your present plans? 1593:JPS bible I linked above -- 1240:with the vowels of the word 868:12:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC) 851:02:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 814:00:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 767:00:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 732:00:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 708:00:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 682:20:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC) 546:19:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC) 521:19:53, 4 February 2008 (UTC) 403:05:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC) 381:09:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 365:06:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 214:20:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC) 138:20:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC) 136:20:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC) 106:18:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC) 6364:etymology and pronunciation 5698:to interpret, not easier. 5239:The following text is found 3821:I made the revision below: 3543:According to long-standing 1942:Hard facts are really rare. 1868:Southern Baptist Convention 635:Duplication of information! 6768: 6651:21:50, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 6554:22:04, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 6170:Lead sentence/paragrah (2) 6139:15:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 6102:15:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 6070:14:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 5992:13:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 5955:13:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 5926:13:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 5866:12:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 5841:17:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC) 5812:19:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC) 5795:Malcolm previously wrote: 5708:12:44, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 5688:12:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 5665:written with Hebrew Font. 5636:11:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 5596:11:46, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 5578:01:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 5500:03:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 5485:01:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 5436:17:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC) 5417:16:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC) 5382:19:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC) 5352:‎, the name of God in the 5325:14:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC) 5302:12:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC) 5176:14:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC) 5114:13:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC) 5089:13:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC) 5051:10:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC) 5025:00:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC) 5005:00:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC) 4978:19:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC) 4899:09:57, 24 April 2008 (UTC) 4875:15:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC) 4856:14:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC) 4731:14:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC) 4601:10:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC) 4556:10:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC) 4514:22:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC) 4409:14:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC) 4380:23:55, 20 April 2008 (UTC) 4309:22:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC) 4287:19:12, 20 April 2008 (UTC) 4260:18:10, 20 April 2008 (UTC) 4138:17:17, 20 April 2008 (UTC) 4118:15:30, 20 April 2008 (UTC) 4075:12:25, 20 April 2008 (UTC) 4033:10:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC) 4011:09:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC) 3982:04:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC) 3966:00:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC) 3914:23:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3782:15:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3758:15:44, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3736:15:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3713:21:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3690:15:44, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3661:14:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3645:13:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3492:13:41, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3473:12:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3454:01:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3351:06:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3307:00:57, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3279:00:40, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3257:00:31, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3234:00:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 3215:23:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC) 3134:15:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC) 3114:00:25, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 2926:14:20, 18 April 2008 (UTC) 2913:14:57, 18 April 2008 (UTC) 2852:14:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC) 2827:13:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC) 2781:13:24, 18 April 2008 (UTC) 2760:11:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC) 2745:11:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC) 2656:11:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC) 2630:03:19, 18 April 2008 (UTC) 2608:01:32, 18 April 2008 (UTC) 2535:00:34, 18 April 2008 (UTC) 2508:17:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC) 2483:16:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC) 2392:15:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC) 2373:19:15, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 2346:16:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 2319:16:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 2248:16:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 2223:15:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 2175:14:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 2160:14:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 2142:13:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 2079:12:33, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 2045:11:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 1983:12:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC) 1924:11:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC) 1897:08:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC) 1854:10:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC) 1819:00:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC) 1803:00:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC) 1739:23:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 1688:22:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 1646:18:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 1607:18:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 1572:17:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 1492:16:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 1473:16:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 1443:16:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 1422:15:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 1397:11:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 1160:05:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 1134:15:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 1116:14:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 1090:15:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC) 1068:User_talk:Carlaude#Jehovah 1066:See also our discussions: 1058:21:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC) 1024:14:16, 10 April 2008 (UTC) 976:12:16, 10 April 2008 (UTC) 688:I consider this vandalism, 173:11:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 6328: 5748:to interpret, not easier. 5673: 5398: 5397:If one doesn't know what 5391: 5390:If one doesn't know what 5349: 5342: 5341:is an English reading of 4660:American Standard Version 4655: 4631: 4623: 4619: 4571: 4293: 3628: 3624: 3616: 3610: 3592: 3568: 3536:which is the most sacred 3530: 3190: 3171: 3155: 3058: 3046: 3031:when treated individually 2975: 2957:and the main differences. 2446:it is allowed on Wikinfo. 2232:Knowledge:Content forking 1996:talk:WikiProject Judaism 1988:theName is not pronounced 1759: 1207: 1147: 1143: 1139: 1103: 1095: 1037: 993: 241:becomes The Netherlands, 200:..." (Matt 6:9) and even 6512:Pronunciation of 'Jesus' 6504:17:28, 17 May 2008 (UTC) 6477:17:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC) 6380:12:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC) 6353:10:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC) 6285:07:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC) 6246:07:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC) 6217:On the other hand, with 6198:23:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC) 6047:which first appeared as 2984:in the underlying Hebrew 1885:King-James-Only Movement 342:23:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC) 6678:Sir Godfry Driver wrote 6571:08:46, 3 May 2008 (UTC) 6162:20:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC) 6129:" rather than "have". 6035:Sir Godfry Driver wrote 4457:tag that Malcolm added, 4390:Going around in circles 3174:‎) is not pronounced. 3045:God's name is actually 1994:I have copied this from 829:copyright infringements 655:NWT 'Divine Name' quote 470:Names of God in Judaism 5881:You previously wrote: 5641:__________ Hi Jheald, 5523: 5456: 5366: 4634:‎ was formed when the 4613:Protestant Reformation 4543:Protestant Reformation 3678: 3602:language name for God. 3575:language name for God. 3571:‎, is the most sacred 3540:language name for God. 3203: 3176: 2981:that occurs 6518 times 2114: 2029: 1009:to read it as Jehovah. 903: 318:into English this way. 204:know what that means. 6629:, usually invoke the 5521: 5454: 5336: 4646:to the consonants of 4126:Arbitration Committee 3669: 3265:Christian views, but 3180: 3145: 2109: 2005: 1769:was being critiqued. 1042:plus the vowels e-o-a 898: 533:" to avert vandalism? 42:of past discussions. 6511: 5063:Wonderful work from 4479:used by exactly who? 2917:I've nominated this 1998:for discussion here. 6627:Orthodox Christians 5360:handed down by the 5356:, in the text with 4675:Jehovah's Witnesses 3598:is the most sacred 3442:Just Some Thoughts 2380:Jewish Encyclopedia 2062:(second instance), 2058:(second instance), 1912:The Bible Unearthed 1873:Independent Baptist 1544:of the name of God. 996:‎ refers "Jehovah." 417:Jehovah's Witnesses 122:for Elohim, not so 6635:Chalcedonian creed 5524: 5457: 5334:The lead sentence 4664:King James Version 3399:A mispronunciation 3362:Just Some Thoughts 3004:in about 1815 A.D. 839:. Best regards! -- 5878:Hi again Jheald, 5280:'Who is he/she?'. 3170:tradition, YHWH ( 3049:‎ (i.e. Jehovah), 3014:occurs ZERO times 1595:with vowel points 684: 668:comment added by 505:The diff is here 229:rather than the 108: 96:comment added by 82: 81: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 6759: 6752: 6747: 6741: 6734: 6728: 6724: 6718: 6713: 6707: 6704: 6698: 6691: 6685: 6674: 6668: 6661: 6546:GabrielVelasquez 6330: 6185:mispronunciation 6181:mispronunciation 6176:mispronunciation 5675: 5400: 5393: 5351: 5344: 4957: 4657: 4633: 4625: 4621: 4573: 4456: 4450: 4295: 3630: 3626: 3618: 3612: 3594: 3570: 3532: 3529:into English of 3192: 3189:into English of 3173: 3157: 3083: 3082: 3074: 3073: 3060: 3048: 3013: 3012: 2997: 2996: 2977: 2921:for deletion. -- 2056:Deuteronomy 9:26 2052:Deuteronomy 3:24 1761: 1504:So you call the 1209: 1149: 1145: 1141: 1105: 1097: 1039: 995: 848: 843: 811: 809: 808: 799: 774:GabrielVelasquez 764: 762: 761: 752: 724:GabrielVelasquez 715: 700:GabrielVelasquez 663: 627: 620: 538:GabrielVelasquez 513:GabrielVelasquez 395:GabrielVelasquez 387:Theophoric names 357:GabrielVelasquez 245:becomes France, 206:GabrielVelasquez 168: 165: 159: 156: 128:GabrielVelasquez 91: 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 6767: 6766: 6762: 6761: 6760: 6758: 6757: 6756: 6755: 6748: 6744: 6735: 6731: 6725: 6721: 6714: 6710: 6705: 6701: 6692: 6688: 6675: 6671: 6667:and then edited 6662: 6658: 6594: 6514: 6172: 6154:Malcolm Schosha 5833:Malcolm Schosha 5804:Malcolm Schosha 5470:God of Israel. 5428:Malcolm Schosha 5374:Malcolm Schosha 5332: 5312: 5310:Intro today (2) 5190: 5131:pronounciation. 4985: 4955: 4920:Is that good? 4906: 4882: 4867:Malcolm Schosha 4774:is not approved 4719: 4454: 4448: 4447:Except for the 4392: 4279:Malcolm Schosha 4130:Malcolm Schosha 3794: 3774:Malcolm Schosha 3750:Malcolm Schosha 3682:Malcolm Schosha 3653:Malcolm Schosha 3527:transliteration 3525:is a Christian 3465:Malcolm Schosha 3299:Malcolm Schosha 3249:Malcolm Schosha 3222:transliteration 3207:Malcolm Schosha 3187:transliteration 3185:is a Christian 3152:transliteration 3141: 3122: 2844:Malcolm Schosha 2773:Malcolm Schosha 2752:Malcolm Schosha 2648:Malcolm Schosha 2527:Malcolm Schosha 2522: 2500:Malcolm Schosha 2384:Malcolm Schosha 2365:Malcolm Schosha 2360: 2338:Malcolm Schosha 2240:Malcolm Schosha 2152:Malcolm Schosha 2134:Malcolm Schosha 2037:Malcolm Schosha 1990: 1916:Malcolm Schosha 1811:Malcolm Schosha 1731:Malcolm Schosha 1638:Malcolm Schosha 1564:Malcolm Schosha 1484:Malcolm Schosha 1414:Malcolm Schosha 947: 876: 846: 841: 810: 806: 804: 802: 786: 763: 759: 757: 755: 739: 713: 657: 637: 616: 614: 422:Theophoric name 413: 349: 223: 183: 166: 163: 162: 157: 154: 118:for Adonai and 87: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 6765: 6763: 6754: 6753: 6742: 6729: 6719: 6708: 6699: 6686: 6669: 6665:Qere and Ketiv 6655: 6640: 6638: 6593: 6590: 6589: 6588: 6560: 6557: 6556: 6541: 6522: 6520: 6518: 6513: 6510: 6509: 6508: 6507: 6506: 6490: 6489: 6488: 6487: 6457: 6455: 6454: 6453: 6452: 6446: 6445: 6444: 6443: 6436: 6435: 6434: 6433: 6426: 6425: 6424: 6423: 6416: 6415: 6414: 6413: 6406: 6405: 6404: 6403: 6384: 6360: 6359: 6358: 6357: 6356: 6355: 6337: 6336: 6335: 6334: 6333: 6332: 6320: 6319: 6318: 6317: 6316: 6315: 6307: 6306: 6305: 6304: 6303: 6302: 6290: 6289: 6288: 6287: 6270: 6269: 6268: 6267: 6249: 6248: 6234: 6215: 6204: 6171: 6168: 6167: 6166: 6165: 6164: 6142: 6141: 6121: 6120: 6077: 6074: 6059: 6058: 6057: 6056: 6055: 6054: 6022: 6021: 6020: 6019: 6018: 6017: 6016: 6015: 5997: 5996: 5995: 5994: 5977: 5976: 5975: 5974: 5967: 5966: 5965: 5964: 5958: 5957: 5944: 5943: 5942: 5937: 5891: 5890: 5889: 5888: 5875: 5873: 5872: 5871: 5870: 5869: 5868: 5850: 5849: 5848: 5847: 5846: 5845: 5844: 5843: 5821: 5820: 5819: 5818: 5817: 5816: 5815: 5814: 5799:generator see 5788: 5787: 5786: 5785: 5784: 5783: 5782: 5781: 5771: 5770: 5769: 5768: 5767: 5766: 5765: 5764: 5754: 5753: 5752: 5751: 5750: 5749: 5737: 5736: 5735: 5734: 5733: 5732: 5724: 5723: 5722: 5721: 5720: 5719: 5711: 5710: 5657: 5656: 5655: 5654: 5639: 5638: 5619: 5618: 5614: 5613: 5609: 5608: 5599: 5598: 5582: 5561: 5560: 5548: 5547: 5531:Tetragrammaton 5515: 5503: 5502: 5464:Tetragrammaton 5448: 5444: 5441: 5440: 5439: 5438: 5420: 5419: 5405: 5402: 5395: 5388: 5347:Tetragrammaton 5331: 5328: 5311: 5308: 5307: 5306: 5305: 5304: 5288: 5287: 5286: 5285: 5284: 5283: 5282: 5281: 5278: 5275: 5269: 5266: 5263: 5260: 5257: 5254: 5246: 5245: 5244: 5243: 5240: 5233: 5208: 5207: 5201: 5199: 5198: 5189: 5186: 5185: 5184: 5183: 5182: 5181: 5180: 5179: 5178: 5156: 5155: 5154: 5153: 5152: 5151: 5150: 5149: 5139: 5138: 5137: 5136: 5135: 5134: 5133: 5132: 5121: 5120: 5119: 5118: 5117: 5116: 5101: 5094: 5091: 5077: 5074: 5071: 5068: 5056: 5055: 5054: 5053: 5037: 5036: 5035: 5034: 5028: 5027: 4984: 4981: 4921: 4919: 4914: 4912: 4905: 4902: 4881: 4878: 4863: 4862: 4861: 4860: 4859: 4858: 4840: 4839: 4838: 4837: 4836: 4835: 4827: 4826: 4825: 4824: 4823: 4822: 4821: 4820: 4819: 4818: 4812: 4809: 4797: 4796: 4795: 4794: 4793: 4792: 4784: 4783: 4782: 4781: 4780: 4779: 4776: 4765: 4764: 4763: 4762: 4761: 4760: 4757: 4749: 4748: 4747: 4746: 4745: 4744: 4735: 4718: 4717:Starting again 4715: 4714: 4713: 4712: 4711: 4710: 4709: 4694: 4693: 4692: 4691: 4690: 4689: 4680: 4640:vowel pointing 4628:Tetragrammaton 4606: 4605: 4604: 4603: 4587: 4586: 4585: 4584: 4581: 4578: 4575: 4565: 4564: 4563: 4562: 4561: 4560: 4559: 4558: 4545: 4531: 4525: 4524: 4523: 4522: 4521: 4520: 4519: 4518: 4517: 4516: 4493: 4492: 4491: 4490: 4489: 4488: 4487: 4486: 4483: 4480: 4474: 4466: 4465: 4464: 4463: 4462: 4461: 4458: 4440: 4439: 4438: 4437: 4436: 4435: 4432: 4424: 4423: 4422: 4421: 4420: 4419: 4391: 4388: 4387: 4386: 4385: 4384: 4383: 4382: 4364: 4363: 4362: 4361: 4360: 4359: 4356: 4353: 4345: 4344: 4343: 4342: 4341: 4340: 4335: 4332: 4321: 4320: 4319: 4318: 4312: 4311: 4297: 4267: 4266: 4265: 4264: 4263: 4262: 4244: 4243: 4242: 4241: 4240: 4239: 4230: 4229: 4228: 4227: 4226: 4225: 4222: 4219: 4211: 4210: 4209: 4208: 4207: 4206: 4198: 4197: 4196: 4195: 4194: 4193: 4184: 4183: 4182: 4181: 4180: 4179: 4171: 4170: 4169: 4168: 4167: 4166: 4157: 4156: 4155: 4154: 4153: 4152: 4143: 4141: 4140: 4105: 4103: 4101: 4096: 4086: 4084: 4083: 4082: 4081: 4080: 4079: 4078: 4077: 4057: 4056: 4055: 4054: 4053: 4052: 4051: 4050: 4040: 4039: 4038: 4037: 4036: 4035: 4016: 4015: 4014: 4013: 3997: 3996: 3995: 3994: 3987: 3985: 3984: 3940: 3939: 3934: 3931: 3891: 3890: 3884: 3883: 3876:Tetragrammaton 3872:Qere perpetuum 3867: 3866: 3862: 3861: 3858: 3843: 3842: 3829: 3828: 3819: 3818: 3817: 3816: 3811: 3808: 3805: 3793: 3790: 3789: 3788: 3787: 3786: 3785: 3784: 3765: 3764: 3763: 3762: 3761: 3760: 3741: 3740: 3739: 3738: 3720: 3719: 3718: 3717: 3716: 3715: 3701:Qere and Ketiv 3664: 3663: 3632: 3623:Do you equate 3622: 3614: 3608: 3606: 3605: 3604: 3603: 3596: 3584: 3579: 3578: 3577: 3576: 3560: 3559: 3558: 3557: 3551: 3548: 3541: 3534: 3520: 3512: 3511: 3510: 3509: 3497: 3496: 3495: 3494: 3476: 3475: 3458: 3426: 3421: 3418: 3417: 3412: 3409: 3406: 3403: 3400: 3397: 3390: 3388: 3387: 3384: 3381: 3377: 3376: 3373: 3370: 3364: 3363: 3360: 3356: 3355: 3354: 3353: 3327: 3326: 3325: 3324: 3286: 3285: 3284: 3283: 3282: 3281: 3237: 3236: 3164:vowel pointing 3162:YHWH with the 3160:Tetragrammaton 3150:is an English 3140: 3137: 3121: 3118: 3117: 3116: 3102: 3101: 3098: 3095: 3093: 3090: 3086: 3085: 3076: 3067: 3063: 3062: 3056: 3053: 3050: 3043: 3039: 3038: 3035: 3032: 3029: 3025: 3024: 3021: 3018: 3015: 3006: 3005: 3002: 2999: 2992:Yahweh (i.e. 2989: 2988: 2985: 2982: 2979: 2971: 2970: 2966: 2965: 2959: 2958: 2955: 2952: 2948: 2947: 2941: 2940: 2936: 2935: 2930: 2893: 2892: 2891: 2890: 2859: 2858: 2857: 2856: 2855: 2854: 2832: 2831: 2830: 2829: 2813: 2812: 2811: 2810: 2804: 2803: 2802: 2801: 2795: 2794: 2793: 2792: 2785: 2763: 2762: 2731: 2730: 2729: 2728: 2722: 2716: 2715: 2714: 2713: 2706: 2705: 2704: 2703: 2697: 2696: 2695: 2694: 2687: 2686: 2685: 2684: 2680: 2665: 2664: 2663: 2662: 2661: 2660: 2659: 2658: 2637: 2636: 2635: 2634: 2633: 2632: 2613: 2612: 2611: 2610: 2594: 2593: 2592: 2591: 2585: 2584: 2583: 2582: 2574: 2573: 2572: 2571: 2565: 2564: 2563: 2562: 2555: 2554: 2553: 2552: 2546: 2545: 2544: 2543: 2521: 2516: 2515: 2514: 2513: 2512: 2511: 2510: 2488: 2487: 2486: 2485: 2469: 2468: 2467: 2466: 2460: 2459: 2458: 2457: 2451: 2450: 2449: 2448: 2442: 2436: 2435: 2434: 2433: 2427: 2426: 2425: 2424: 2414: 2413: 2412: 2411: 2404: 2403: 2402: 2401: 2395: 2394: 2359: 2356: 2355: 2354: 2353: 2352: 2351: 2350: 2349: 2348: 2326: 2325: 2324: 2323: 2322: 2321: 2303: 2302: 2301: 2300: 2299: 2298: 2290: 2289: 2288: 2287: 2286: 2285: 2277: 2276: 2275: 2274: 2273: 2272: 2264: 2263: 2262: 2261: 2260: 2259: 2228: 2227: 2226: 2225: 2209: 2208: 2207: 2206: 2200: 2199: 2198: 2197: 2191: 2190: 2189: 2188: 2180: 2178: 2177: 2147: 2146: 2145: 2144: 2127: 2126: 2125: 2124: 2118: 2117: 2116: 2115: 2104: 2103: 2102: 2101: 2095: 2094: 2093: 2092: 2082: 2081: 2067: 2001: 2000: 1989: 1986: 1972: 1971: 1970: 1969: 1957: 1956: 1955: 1954: 1949: 1946: 1943: 1931: 1930: 1929: 1928: 1927: 1926: 1881: 1880: 1879: 1878: 1877: 1876: 1859: 1858: 1857: 1856: 1835: 1834: 1833: 1832: 1822: 1821: 1763: 1756: 1755: 1754: 1753: 1752: 1751: 1750: 1749: 1748: 1747: 1746: 1745: 1744: 1743: 1742: 1741: 1703: 1702: 1701: 1700: 1699: 1698: 1697: 1696: 1695: 1694: 1693: 1692: 1691: 1690: 1659: 1658: 1657: 1656: 1655: 1654: 1653: 1652: 1651: 1650: 1649: 1648: 1618: 1617: 1616: 1615: 1614: 1613: 1612: 1611: 1610: 1609: 1581: 1580: 1579: 1578: 1577: 1576: 1575: 1574: 1550: 1549: 1548: 1547: 1546: 1545: 1525: 1524: 1523: 1522: 1521: 1520: 1497: 1496: 1495: 1494: 1476: 1475: 1448: 1447: 1446: 1445: 1410: 1408: 1407: 1406: 1405: 1404: 1403: 1402: 1401: 1400: 1399: 1377: 1376: 1375: 1374: 1373: 1372: 1371: 1370: 1369: 1368: 1353: 1352: 1351: 1350: 1349: 1348: 1347: 1346: 1345: 1344: 1343: 1342: 1341: 1340: 1324: 1323: 1322: 1321: 1320: 1319: 1318: 1317: 1316: 1315: 1314: 1313: 1312: 1311: 1292: 1291: 1290: 1289: 1288: 1287: 1286: 1285: 1284: 1283: 1282: 1281: 1280: 1279: 1258: 1257: 1256: 1255: 1254: 1253: 1252: 1251: 1250: 1249: 1248: 1247: 1246: 1245: 1220: 1219: 1218: 1217: 1216: 1215: 1214: 1213: 1212: 1211: 1191: 1190: 1189: 1188: 1187: 1186: 1185: 1184: 1183: 1182: 1169: 1167: 1166: 1165: 1164: 1163: 1162: 1122:Qere and ketiv 1092: 1063: 1062: 1061: 1060: 1011: 1010: 1007:Tetragrammaton 998: 997: 965: 964: 963: 962: 959: 956: 946: 943: 875: 872: 871: 870: 854: 853: 817: 816: 803: 770: 769: 756: 722: 719: 716: 712: 698: 696: 692: 690: 662: 656: 653: 636: 633: 632: 631: 569: 567: 566: 556:Mantanmoreland 552: 536: 534: 528: 525: 511: 509: 503: 502: 497: 492: 490:God in Judaism 487: 482: 477: 472: 467: 462: 457: 452: 446: 445: 444: 443: 442: 441: 436: 426: 425: 419: 412: 409: 408: 407: 406: 405: 348: 345: 329: 328: 327: 323: 319: 315: 312: 308: 299: 298: 254: 251: 236: 234: 222: 219: 217: 216: 195: 182: 179: 178: 177: 176: 175: 160: 142: 141: 140: 139: 86: 83: 80: 79: 74: 69: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 6764: 6751: 6746: 6743: 6739: 6733: 6730: 6723: 6720: 6717: 6712: 6709: 6703: 6700: 6696: 6690: 6687: 6683: 6679: 6673: 6670: 6666: 6660: 6657: 6654: 6653: 6652: 6648: 6644: 6643:205.200.19.57 6636: 6632: 6628: 6624: 6621: 6617: 6616: 6612: 6608: 6607:69.157.229.14 6604: 6600: 6591: 6587: 6583: 6579: 6575: 6574: 6573: 6572: 6568: 6564: 6555: 6551: 6547: 6542: 6540: 6536: 6532: 6528: 6525: 6524: 6523: 6505: 6501: 6497: 6494: 6493: 6492: 6491: 6486: 6483: 6482: 6481: 6480: 6479: 6478: 6474: 6470: 6466: 6463: 6459: 6450: 6449: 6448: 6447: 6440: 6439: 6438: 6437: 6430: 6429: 6428: 6427: 6420: 6419: 6418: 6417: 6410: 6409: 6408: 6407: 6401: 6397: 6393: 6392: 6391: 6390: 6389: 6386: 6382: 6381: 6377: 6373: 6367: 6365: 6354: 6350: 6346: 6343: 6342: 6341: 6340: 6339: 6338: 6326: 6325: 6324: 6323: 6322: 6321: 6313: 6312: 6311: 6310: 6309: 6308: 6300: 6296: 6295: 6294: 6293: 6292: 6291: 6286: 6282: 6278: 6274: 6273: 6272: 6271: 6265: 6261: 6257: 6253: 6252: 6251: 6250: 6247: 6243: 6239: 6235: 6232: 6228: 6224: 6220: 6216: 6213: 6209: 6205: 6202: 6201: 6200: 6199: 6195: 6191: 6186: 6182: 6177: 6169: 6163: 6159: 6155: 6150: 6146: 6145: 6144: 6143: 6140: 6136: 6132: 6128: 6123: 6122: 6118: 6117:the same word 6114: 6110: 6106: 6105: 6104: 6103: 6099: 6095: 6091: 6089: 6085: 6083: 6079: 6078:Hi StAnselm, 6075: 6072: 6071: 6067: 6063: 6052: 6050: 6044: 6043: 6042: 6041: 6040: 6039: 6038: 6036: 6031: 6028: 6025: 6014: 6011: 6010: 6009: 6008: 6007: 6006: 6005: 6004: 6003: 6000: 5993: 5989: 5985: 5981: 5980: 5979: 5978: 5971: 5970: 5969: 5968: 5962: 5961: 5960: 5959: 5956: 5952: 5948: 5945: 5941: 5938: 5936: 5933: 5932: 5930: 5929: 5928: 5927: 5923: 5919: 5915: 5911: 5909: 5904: 5900: 5897: 5894: 5886: 5885: 5884: 5883: 5882: 5879: 5876: 5867: 5863: 5859: 5856: 5855: 5854: 5853: 5852: 5851: 5842: 5838: 5834: 5830: 5829: 5827: 5826: 5825: 5824: 5823: 5822: 5813: 5809: 5805: 5801: 5797: 5796: 5794: 5793: 5792: 5791: 5790: 5789: 5779: 5778: 5777: 5776: 5775: 5774: 5773: 5772: 5762: 5761: 5760: 5759: 5758: 5757: 5756: 5755: 5747: 5743: 5742: 5741: 5740: 5739: 5738: 5730: 5729: 5728: 5727: 5726: 5725: 5717: 5716: 5715: 5714: 5713: 5712: 5709: 5705: 5701: 5697: 5692: 5691: 5690: 5689: 5685: 5681: 5677: 5670: 5666: 5662: 5661: 5652: 5651: 5650: 5649: 5648: 5645: 5642: 5637: 5633: 5629: 5625: 5621: 5620: 5616: 5615: 5611: 5610: 5606: 5601: 5600: 5597: 5593: 5589: 5585: 5584: 5583: 5580: 5579: 5575: 5571: 5565: 5558: 5557: 5556: 5552: 5544: 5540: 5536: 5535: 5534: 5532: 5528: 5520: 5516: 5513: 5510: 5506: 5505:Hi StAnselm, 5501: 5497: 5493: 5489: 5488: 5487: 5486: 5482: 5478: 5474: 5471: 5467: 5465: 5461: 5453: 5449: 5446: 5437: 5433: 5429: 5424: 5423: 5422: 5421: 5418: 5414: 5410: 5406: 5403: 5396: 5389: 5386: 5385: 5384: 5383: 5379: 5375: 5371: 5365: 5363: 5359: 5355: 5348: 5340: 5335: 5330:lead sentence 5329: 5327: 5326: 5322: 5318: 5309: 5303: 5299: 5295: 5292: 5291: 5290: 5289: 5279: 5276: 5274:'What is it?' 5273: 5272: 5270: 5267: 5264: 5261: 5258: 5255: 5252: 5251: 5250: 5249: 5248: 5247: 5241: 5238: 5237: 5236: 5235: 5234: 5231: 5229: 5225: 5221: 5218: 5215: 5213: 5205: 5204: 5203: 5195: 5194: 5187: 5177: 5173: 5169: 5164: 5163: 5162: 5161: 5160: 5159: 5158: 5157: 5147: 5146: 5145: 5144: 5143: 5142: 5141: 5140: 5129: 5128: 5127: 5126: 5125: 5124: 5123: 5122: 5115: 5111: 5107: 5102: 5099: 5095: 5092: 5090: 5086: 5082: 5078: 5075: 5072: 5069: 5066: 5062: 5061: 5060: 5059: 5058: 5057: 5052: 5048: 5044: 5041: 5040: 5039: 5038: 5032: 5031: 5030: 5029: 5026: 5022: 5018: 5014: 5009: 5008: 5007: 5006: 5002: 4998: 4993: 4989: 4982: 4980: 4979: 4975: 4971: 4967: 4963: 4961: 4951: 4947: 4943: 4939: 4935: 4933: 4929: 4923: 4916: 4909: 4903: 4901: 4900: 4896: 4892: 4889: 4885: 4879: 4877: 4876: 4872: 4868: 4857: 4853: 4849: 4846: 4845: 4844: 4843: 4842: 4841: 4833: 4832: 4831: 4830: 4829: 4828: 4816: 4813: 4810: 4807: 4806: 4805: 4804: 4803: 4802: 4801: 4800: 4799: 4798: 4790: 4789: 4788: 4787: 4786: 4785: 4777: 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