4400:, ended up admitting that they hadn't been able to find out why Masood attacked Parliament. None of the usual signs of radicalisation, not the usual terrorist profile. Islam was somewhere in his motivation, but not in a way that fitted any 'identikit profile'. Many of the 'copy-cat', lone-wolf incidents have been like that, in the last resort puzzling behaviour by 'losers' or 'misfits' sometimes with histories of criminal or violent behaviour. The press and most WP editors had lost interest by the time police said that about Masood. If we are no more than an echo chamber for press 'guess narratives' - and that is pretty much what they are - what's the point? Between al-Swealmeen being 110% guilty as a dedicated terrorist and him being 110% innocent
450:
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3966:, without even access to the investigation is pretty worthless. However news sources often engage in a 'feeding frenzy', especially if the central figure is dead. If the police haven't identified/declared a motive, or other details, how the hell would the Daily Chipwrap know anyway? I agree that ultimately we can only report sources, but a healthy scepticism about what they are saying is no fault IMO. WP isn't a newspaper, we are entitled to be more cautious since we have no obligation to attract customers.
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hospital, it would cease to be a bombing. Postal bombers nevertheless bomb postal service stations when their bombs go off early. As long as there is an intentional act to attack (from Lexico/OED) I think bombing covers it. (Edit: But if it turns out to be accidental, RSs will slowly reflect that by using explosion as opposed to bombing. For now, it's clear they are using bombing.)
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1711:
not an issue. Would you agree he was the taxi passenger? Is it that the bomb may have been detonated "accidentally" or by someone else remotely (but police seem to have ruled out the latter). I can't think of another reason. Or is that dead terrorists always remain "suspects" and can never be murderers, because they were never found guilty in court?
2593:
can let other people be disappointed, too. I would twistily suggest combining the incident part and current hook to say "...that after he ran away from the LWH bombing, a taxi driver was commended as a hero", which is even more WTF, but that kind of paints the driver negatively when he doesn't seem to have claimed the title himself.
3685:, regardless of how accurate or factually correct those titles are. That is not the problem here though, the problem here is that if stated elsewhere in the article, that needs to be substantiated by RSes - and we aren't able to do that currently for the reasons laid out above. Let's not keep going around in circles on that, eh? --
2942:& also chose to take a bomb with him in the vehicle. What's your specific angle on this? That he may have intended to detonate the bomb elsewhere? Even if it were proved that he had another intended bombing destination (which it hasn't been), it doesn't change what happened or where, which is what the title should describe.
1322:
is happening now is a counter-terrorism investigation to see if there is an ongoing threat connected to the deceased perpetrator, what his possible connections and influences were etc. There is nothing more to be learned from the investigation regarding the identity of the perpetrator. The officials said who he was.
2895:, you say "explosion" does not "convey that the incident was deliberate". The question posed at the start of this thread was "Has there been confirmation in the RSes that this was a deliberate 'bombing' rather than an unintentional explosion?" You seem to believe there has been - can you elaborate on that? --
4291:. I'm not sure we have laid out a comprehensive review of what RSs have said, in regard to "suspected", over the past 12 days since the bombing. To me the iNews source looks cherry-picked and out of date. As far as I can see, using just that one source certainly does not "give each side its due weight".
4407:
The only sources of info about what al-Swealmeen was trying to do, and why are people who have actually been in contact with him in recent months and browsing/phone records etc, and only the police have the manpower or powers to investigate these. How the hell could even the best journos in the world
3545:
Thank you for correcting my use of
English. At the moment, this article relies on speculation that the suspect bombed the hospital. As we don't know yet where he was taking the device, or why, or why it partially exploded, and yet our article seems to imply he deliberately used it himself to bomb the
1321:
I cited one source that describes him not as a suspect but as the "Liverpool bomber" in the relevant place. The conclusion of the investigation with regard to who detonated the device is already being had. This is not a normal criminal investigation where we wait to see if there will be charges. What
3842:
Yes, they appear to be the only major mainstream UK media source theorising that al-Swealmeen may have had no ideology. Were that true, what would his motive have been to buy the components for a bomb, build it & hire a taxi? I doubt he had a grudge against the taxi or driver; building a bomb is
2978:
There's nothing to back the speculation that his intended target was
Liverpool Cathedral. Had it been, he'd have asked the driver to take him there instead of the hospital. The most likely scenario is that he planned to take the bomb into the hospital. In any case, we name attacks by their location,
2592:
It's not that interesting but since it also gives no context to the taxi driver, it could hook people in. I don't know how he was "commendably brave" (opening line literally says he ran away) but the
Response sources do say that and so did the PM (both presumably trying to make a positive story), we
1710:
That's very intriguing. They also use the headline "Liverpool suspect âbegan buying bomb parts at least seven months agoâ" Although we can't trust that, of course. Perhaps we should try and tease out why there should be any remaining doubt over his responsibility? It certainly seems that identity is
4218:
Is Darren
Knowles' account part of the "investigations"? I don't have a hot-line to the Counterterrorism unit. I'm really not sure what additional evidence could be published to convince people that al-Swealmeen was responsible for this explosion. Is it a case of a dead suspect must always remain a
4061:
We currently have the passenger "carrying the device". Doesn't the account by Darren
Knowles, with "a little red light on a vest that the passenger was wearing", suggest that the suspected bomber may have had the suspected explosives strapped to his suspected body, rather than carrying some kind of
3185:
Whoever made the bomb presumably intended it to be detonatable, and whoever the customer for the bomb was presumably planned to bomb somewhere with it. However, we don't know who the customer of it was and where they planned to bomb with it. All we know is it partially went off in a taxi and killed
1975:
The guy blew himself up. What he intended to do and why is pure guesswork at the moment. There is no reason to believe that The
Telegraph has some divining rod that makes its guesses better than anyone else's. The only people with a better picture are the people investigating the clues left behind.
4346:
We need to know, not only that he made the bomb, but that he deliberately detonated it. As far as I know, we do not have any sources that substantiate that second one. OTOH, we have sources reporting the police saying that it may have been detonated accidentally. Let's wait for the facts to emerge
2937:
Some of our articles about bombings initially have explosion in their titles due it being unknown if it's deliberate. If it becomes backed by RS that it was deliberate, we usually change the title so that it includes bombing. RS describe the attack as a bombing & al-Swealmeen as the bomber. He
4331:
As I said, I'm not sure we have laid out a comprehensive review of what RSs have said, in regard to "suspected", over the past 12 days since the bombing. Where are these "hard facts" that prove he was merely a "suspected bomber"? It's a hard fact that he had manufactured the bomb, entirely on his
4316:
It also depends, of course, on how accurately the sources are interpreted, and whether editorialisation and sensationalisation are taken into account - remembering that professional journalists can craft an article to say what they think the readers want to hear, but on closer scrutiny not saying
3998:
I don't know whether you mean police sources, nor whether you mean on or off the record info. I do know there are very different cultures in UK/US about police speaking directly "off the record" to the press. It happens of course but is about as unaccountable as it is possible to be. Why would we
2830:
of the list of sources directly above, says: "A fourth suspect was arrested in connection with the bombing on Monday morning." That's not a headline or a sub-heading. But
Assistant Chief Constable Russ Jackson does not use the words "bombing" or "bomber" in the accompanying video clip. A title of
1942:
Firstly, if I had to choose between the BBC and the
Telegraph, I know which I'd choose. Secondly, what was attacked? The cite used in the article does not refer to an attack as a certain fact. How can it be an attack when we don't even know where/what the target was? And am I or a reader meant to
2462:
From a BLP perspective, I'd like to see us steer well clear of the Mayor's remarks (allegations?). They may be right, or wrong, and any heroic actions may be justified and deliberate or not, but these remarks are based on unconfirmed information and definitely serious enough for us to not flaunt
1752:
has "The
Liverpool bomber was a failed asylum seeker who tried to âgame the systemâ by converting to Christianity, Home Office sources claimed yesterday. .. Al Swealmeen, 32, killed himself and injured a taxi driver on Remembrance Sunday when he detonated an improvised explosive device outside
1689:
Police investigating the
Liverpool hospital explosion say the suspected bomber began his plot at least seven months ago and most likely acted on his own. Emad al-Swealmeen, 32, died after a homemade bomb police believe he had built and was carrying, exploded in a taxi outside Liverpool womenâs
3560:
I think the article is neutral but for the use of "perpetrator" (that's not certain if it were accidental) and "bombing" which presupposes some intentional act of detonation or ignition. I do not think that if it were intentional and it went off in the taxi, as opposed to the reception of the
3496:
The word you used was customer, which means selling. Even if you meant that he intended to give it to another member of a VNSA group, why do you think that? Everything point to al-Swealmeen having been a lone wolf. I've not read/heard anything about him having had accomplices, being part of a
2480:
I don't think 'ear sewn back on' is well enough supported by the sources to lead with it, it's basically attributed to 'a man' on Facebook, in fact I'm not sure it should be in the article. Nor do I think even if it is verified, that this is anything like the most important part of the event.
4426:
I think we ought to accept his known actions pass most people's threshold for his being "responsible" for that explosion. The police investigation ruled out any possible accomplice. His supposed motivation is a wholly separate question, although probably another with no answers forthcoming.
1816:
BBC is current - not two days old as claimed. Why would any other source be preferred? Has the BBC ceased to be a RS? What exactly is the hurry to say that the most likely explanation is confirmed, when it hasn't yet been so by UK's most cautious but reliable source nor by UK police AFAIKÂ ?
2327:
Article is new enough, very newsworthy event and hence well-sourced, no copyvios (Earwig reports a false positive on the Johnson quotation), QPQ done. However, without a source saying the taxi driver is comfortable to talk about his ear, I'm concerned the hook may not fit the spirit of
1774:
bomber's mother was from Iraq and confirmed he was born there." So BBC is still using 'suspected' today. The likelihood of any other explanation for the incident is very slim, but the best available source should be followed IMO. He is still only 'suspected' of intending to bomb.
1884:
BBC articles are frequently updated/corrected. There's a tag in the top left indicating how 'fresh' the updates are. While I'm on the subject, I believe the most official statement so far is from the Counter Terrorism Police who said they "strongly believe" that's who the person
1344:- unless it is substantiated in the body of the article, and I didn't spot it in there. Also, do we have a source saying it was deliberately detonated, or could it have gone off by accident? That BBC one says he "was a passenger in a taxi when his homemade device exploded". --
3080:
I can see the justification for including in this article speculation that the cathedral was his intended target. However, it's not proved, and even if it were it wouldn't justify changing the title, because its proven that the incident was a bombing in front of the hospital.
4013:
Well, Security Guard Darren Knowles is very much on the record, with that video on the BBC report and his appearance on local BBC TV. It's now 11 days since the bombing, so I'm not sure that "media feeding frenzy" really applies. BBC News is hardly the Daily Chipwrap, is it?
2876:
Clearly, something "exploded" in the taxi and caused the fire. Maybe the perp was crap at making bombs. I don't like "Liverpool Women's Hospital explosion" as it does not convey that the incident was deliberate. "Explosion" might just be a boiler exploding in the basement.
2983:'s bomb not detonated prematurely, the bus he brought it onto likely would've been outside Aldwych when the bomb exploded. However, even if we knew where he wanted the bus to be when his bomb detonated on it, neither its common name, nor our title, would change from
4534:
I'm not sure we can say the explosion was a bombing. We can probably say the device was a bomb, but if a bomb goes off accidentally in the wrong place is it a bombing or an accident? If it went off in his flat while he was assembling it would it be a bombing? --
4445:. But I don't pretend to have followed this incident's coverage sufficiently closely to voice a useful opinion. That he is NOT in some sense responsible for the explosion, seems very unlikely indeed, though what his intention or motive was still seems unclear.
2417:
He doesn't need Johnson's validation? And I refuse to be a party to getting that wanker on the front page more than he already has to be. What about him (the taxi driver) locking the bloke in the car before scaparing? (PS, I respect your views: all of them.)
3001:
As to whether it is intended or not, sources call him the hospital bomber. It doesn't matter what we'd think and even if it did and we got to determine definitions, the fact sources consider it a bombing is good evidence of what the term means in practice.
1856:: I'm surprised to see the word "suspected" in that same BBC story that I had referenced earlier, as I had checked for it then and I'm pretty sure it wasn't there. Just wanted to clarify that. It's plausible that the article is changing minute by minute.
4519:
I see. So we can discount reports of "a red light on the passenger's vest", or of the driver deliberately locking the passenger in the taxi. But "built with murderous intent" seems to support the view it was "a bombing" not just "an explosion"?
3575:
He intended to detonate it, even though it's uncertain if he intended to detonate it at the exact time & place it exploded. Even if it's proved to have been a premature detonation, that's still a bombing rather than an accidental explosion.
3263:
No source that I'm aware of, and I don't recall anyone suggesting he might have been trying to sell it. He could have been the 'technician' in a team, delivering it to another team member (his customer) to use, when it went off accidentally. --
4046:
Thanks for clarifying. Darren (from Runcorn) seems a pretty straightforward guy and has nothing to gain by inventing something that Perry could very easily repudiate. (And while we're at it, I'm not sure why Perry isn't named in the article).
4032:. We as a community have concluded some sources are RSs, so that when they say they have a source, we can trust that they're not lying. Not that it has any relevance to the BBC article, as the grad schemers at the Beeb have named the source.
3999:
accept a wholly unattributed and unaccountable "sources say ..... "? There's tons of that stuff available already, why would we want to be an "echo chamber" for anon sources? We are a good deal more rigorous about our main encyc articles!
94:
policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or
2398:
for his bravery? ("Prime Minister Boris Johnson has praised Mr Perry's actions. .... The city's mayor Joanne Anderson said the taxi driver's "heroic efforts" averted what could have been an "awful disaster" on Remembrance Sunday."
3113:
It is proven that it was a bombing. The police are saying that they aren't discounting the explosion outside the hospital as a being premature. They aren't saying that they think he might have not intended it to explode anywhere.
2294:
4233:
About a week ago the police said it could have detonated unintentionally, so unless they have given an update since then saying they have now established that it was intentional, we cannot assume it was intentional - can we? --
3961:
Scepticism and caution are virtues in these cases IMO. There's a fair bit of "what other explanation could there be?" logic on these pages. I don't know what other explanation and wouldn't want to conjecture too much anyway -
1220:
The perpetrator was Emad Al-Swealmeen. His picture is all over the news and the internet in general. The police have searched both his recent properties. What needs to happen for him to be no longer just "suspected"? Thanks.
3666:
That's a very good point. Incidentally, there's been no suggestion that this bomb had a timer (which might have been mis-set) Perhaps the police just don't know. But if they did know, I'm sure they would have mentioned it.
3186:
the suspected maker of it. We don't know if he was in transit to deliver it to the customer of it, or to bomb somewhere with it himself, or whether he set it off deliberately as the taxi approached the hospital entrance. --
3095:
If there is proof that it was a bombing, it hasn't been disclosed yet as the latest from the police is that they "still do not know how or why the device exploded when it did, but are not discounting it being completely
2805:
Has there been confirmation in the RSes that this was a deliberate 'bombing' rather than an unintentional explosion? We use the word in the title, infobox and categories, but I don't see it substantiated anywhere. --
1585:
I quote from the same BBC article discussed above: "The Liverpool bomber attempted to launch a fresh legal appeal to stay in the UK in January and then began making purchases for his attack in April, it has emerged."
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4595:
I don't know. I'd probably be guided by the ruling of the coroner. I'm sure we could think of any number of scenarios involving accidental death by a weapon, but I'm not sure how relevant they'd be to this event.
1236:
You're correct. Deceased suspects aren't charged. The investigation revealed the identity of the perpetrator. BBC refers to him as "Liverpool bomber". There's nothing to wait for to be able to remove "suspected".
3903:
While detectives have not yet found evidence of a terrorist ideology and believe that Al Swealmeen most likely acted alone, electronic material found at his home, two miles from the bomb factory, is still being
2495:
I'm just going to submit for the record that if you think our role at DYK is to highlight the main points of events and people, that we have failed each other as performer and audience in a spectacular manner.
2127:
If we're going to note CoE criticism by confirming him as if they would know, it seems the Home Office has some more pressing questions to answer. Making a note of it here, unless someone else wants to add it.
1358:
Ah I see, poor guy. It was all a terrible accident? Even if the device had a timer, or was triggered by a remote accomplice, he'd still be responsible? But, in any case, the police are looking for no-one else.
1394:
It's very easy to do actually. There you are one minute, quietly minding your own business and carrying a bomb to the local women's hospital, the next minuteâbang!âall of a sudden you're in no condition for a
3170:
I tend to agree. Seven months of planning don't really amount to "an accident" as most people would understand that term. Perhaps it could described as a "failed bombing". But still a fully intended bombing.
4501:
Mr Perry drove to the hospital and stopped outside the front entrance. Mr Rebello went on: "As his car came to a stop he didn't notice anything unusual, no warning, no movement from the passenger, just the
3248:
Has any source said he might have been trying to sell? Many sources say CT police have not identified an ideological motivation, but that doesn't mean he didn't intend to bomb somewhere and kill himself.
1976:
The difference between BBC, The Telegraph, Gdn and others at present is more a matter of editorial leaning than 'reliability'. Who is more cautious, who doesn't care tuppence because dead men don't sue?
2909:
The perp entered the taxi with a bomb. He was not taking it on a tour. Whether it went off prematurely or as planned, it was nevertheless intended to go off at some stage. That is not "unintentional".
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3703:
just put in his edit summary, RSs describe him as the "bomber /attacker /perpetrator." If there he was the bomber, it seems reasonable to assume there was a bombing. Here's yet another source with
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4549:
Yes, by all means, an accidental bombing. Quite possibly with accidental fatalities. As distinct from e.g. a gas explosion. We get accidental shootings and accidental poisonings too, for example.
3763:
Investigators have not ruled out concluding that Emad al-Swealmeenâs alleged attack on Liverpool Womenâs hospital had âno ideological or political motiveâ and was therefore not an act of terrorism
2076:
The article does attribute this comment to Malcolm and Elizabeth Hitchcott, Christian volunteers in Liverpool, who briefly "took him in". But it is irreparably tainted by the fact they told the
1725:
It raises the question, which occurs in all these deceased accused cases, of when do you say someone is guilty of a crime when they are dead and could never be prosecuted. Do we wait until even
2850:
A security source said a theory was that the bomb had gone off accidentally as the driver pulled over to drop Al Swealmeen outside the hospital, and that the carnage could have been far worse.
2520:
I'm suggesting this ALT3, to focus on something positive instead of dwelling on horrors, and to be more "hooky" -- it makes you want to read the article to know what he did to be commended.
4642:
4185:
to err of the side of doubt. Happy to hear what other editors think. But my question remains: should we update in line with more recent news sources or not? That iNews article was published
287:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1508:
Police investigation has moved rapidly since the event on Sunday 14th. They no longer see him as "a suspect". He was responsible. He blew himself up. Why is this fact so hard to grasp?
763:
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4580:
If a gun fired whilst in its case on the back seat of a car and with no human interaction or involvement, and the bullet hit the gun's owner, would that be an accidental shooting? --
288:
2831:"Liverpool Women's Hospital explosion" might be more neutral and accurate as the hospital itself was not damaged and it is not known if this was the perpetrator's intended target.
1835:
has quite rightly made clear, we should follow sources. But sources differ in their emphasis and in their use of the s-word. What other explanation has even been offered? Perhaps
1640:
I didn't write the Knowledge policy, I'm just the messenger. But aren't you suspicious of why they say it in the headlines but then don't go on to substantiate it in the body? --
3721:
Without the results of the investigations being available yet though, any such assertions can only be speculation - or do you think the press have an infallible crystal ball? --
1519:
I clicked on the cited source and it contradicted what was written. If the article content was changed to reflect later news, then the later sources should have been cited. --
3047:
The cathedral being the intended target is merely an unsubstantiated theory & even if proven, the current title would be best. It was a bombing in front of the hospital.
104:
3944:
Yes, legally speaking this is hearsay. But we're not a court of law, we're an encyclopaedia reporting RS sources. We could plainly attribute the comment, just like the BBC.
2330:
Consider very carefully whether the hook puts undue emphasis on a negative aspect of a living individual. Err on the side of caution, and when in doubt, suggest an ALT hook.
3622:
Logically, another possibility. But it's not for us to choose which of the possibilities to back, we need to wait for the results of the investigations to be published. --
1188:
3957:
p.s. I'm now waiting for an editor to suggest that it was an "accidental red-light", or perhaps part of a bomb-demonstration for an unidentified potential bomb customer...
3396:
No I am not. I'm saying we need to reliably substantiate any assertions of fact we make, and given that the investigation hasn't been completed, we cannot yet do that. --
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You're the only person I've known to mention a hypothetical customer that al-Swealmeen was going to sell the bomb to. What makes you think he (may have) had a customer?
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to bomb somewhere, which he probably did. It is also a question of whether he intended to bomb this women's hospital. If he was intending to bomb some other location,
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The cathedral is where he arrived to convert and where he met the couple he lived with. It's conjecture that that was part of his calculation, but it was covered in
1265:
Later BBC source which I had already added prior to your revert added doesn't refer to him as a suspect, "suspected X" etc, but simply calls him "Liverpool bomber".
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My understanding, based on what I've read in the press, is that al-Swealmeen was responsible for this explosion. His possible incompetence does not exonerate him.
3546:
hospital, I was just stating the obvious, that there was an alternative: it could have gone off accidentally while he was delivering it to someone else to use. --
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2041:"Al-Swealmeen had changed his name by deed poll to Enzo Almeni, in honour of Italian race car legend Enzo Ferrari, to sound more western on his asylum application
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As you can see from the definition you linked to, that's a less common use of the word which requires it to be accompanied by an adjective, which you didn't use.
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Are editors aware that some roads were closed around the Cathedral because it was Remembrance Sunday? This may explain his request to be taken to the hospital.
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968:, individual terrorists, incidents and related subjects on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the
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And contrary to the security guard's statement, the taxi driver told the inquest that he noticed nothing unusual about the man until the bomb had gone off.
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I think that should work, if you can think of something hooky enough. (As for Johnson, if you can find enough good sources to write 1,500 prose-bytes about
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Is it just me or do all the uses of "suspected" bomber in RS sources appear only in the early reports one or two days after the event (like the current
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Police said the bomber, Emad al-Swealmeen, died in the blast that was set off while he sat inside a taxi cab outside the hospital in Liverpool on Sunday
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The BBC has an article on the proceedings history for his immigration claim and questions about the Home Office's not removing the suspect from the UK.
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experimented with a 7/7-style device as he gathered explosive materials over several months in a rental flat, counterterrorism detectives believe.
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What we shouldn't do though is present our own personal conclusions, with cherry-picked sources that do not contradict them, in Wiki's voice. --
1658:. Do you want them all to be added? Or just that "suspicious" BBC one removed? Even "just the messenger" can also find clearer sources? Thanks.
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If reliable sources disagree, then maintain a neutral point of view and present what the various sources say, giving each side its due weight
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If reliable sources disagree, then maintain a neutral point of view and present what the various sources say, giving each side its due weight
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is so anodyne it defeats the object of DYK. People want to hear about this guy, not the perp or the police. By the way, as the philosopher
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He certainly intended it to explode - that's why he made it & took it into a taxi. What's uncertain is where he wanted it to explode.
1340:, currently number 21, that only says that in the headline, and headlines are not regarded as reliable sources per Knowledge policy - see
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My point was that journalists often do have access to more info than the general public, including investigations. That's why people get
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You're saying we should prove (probably unprovable) negatives, such as him not having operated or planned to operate with anyone else?
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So we have a disagreement between the sources then. We might need to say that in the article so that we don't mislead the readers. --
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here is to get this lesser-known heroic guy the DYK, not focus on the scuzzball that started it, you know. I mean, something like
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bomber. Flights from London to NYC don't usually fly over Scotland, but the attack is commonly known as the Lockerbie bombing.
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Those asserting either bombing or terrorism. The investigations aren't complete, so we do not know whether it was either. Read
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The BBC online editions are usually anonymous and quite lazy, so I would go with the proper paper and respected journalists.
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know anything substantive, that the police don't? We have to follow sources, but doing so very sceptically is a virtue IMO.
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Thanks. Maybe that should be used as a source? But the discussion here suggests his actual identity is not the moot point.
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bomber - reporting the police as saying they aren't yet sure if it was deliberate, or not; then how would we present that?
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Thanks for clarifying. Due restraint is all very well. But if we insist on always going back and using sources published
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the bombing. Why use just that one? We wouldn't want to hand pick sources just to support a given perspective, would we?
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On this, a security guard said the driver saw a red light on the passenger's vest that alerted him to a potential threat.
2149:, by Barrister Adam Wagner, who reiterated that it's the Home Office's job to remove illegal asylum claimants, and that
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bomber in their own voice - but without substantiating that conclusion with hard facts, and the other 5% call him the
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1567:. Which sources say that, because the BBC one only says it in the headline, which cannot be taken to be reliable per
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It depends too on how much weight is given to the level of substantiation in the sources. If 95% of them call him
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I have removed the information and the tag (I'm not sure the tag was necessary in the first place, to be honest).
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Why is that a problem? What is unknown in these circumstance is as important as what is known IMO. Police in the
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Probably best to update the article then and cite sources that confirm the conclusions of the investigations. --
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He's a scouser. He'll fucking love it, they'll be feting him in the pubs and clubs of New Brighton as we speak.
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103:. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see
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See my reply to Martin just above @19:43, 21 November 2021 (UTC) - wrt to balancing what the various RSes say.
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As they're not saying it in their own voice, it's nothing more than hearsay, so probably not worth adding. --
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baseless speculation as the investigation is still ongoing and no conclusion has yet been published. --
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I tidied it up a bit yesterday, so not so much now, although I think some of the categories still fail
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Sell or donation or specific purpose trust, do you have any source that says it was for a third party?
1457:, planning a bomb attack, and then, on the big day, the thing just goes off. How unlucky can you get.
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on 17 November 2021. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see
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Frankly they could have been more convincing. That may be why everyone is still saying 'suspect'. --
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This is not disagreement between the sources. The new coverage is important and the old is outdated.
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But, if Elizabeth Hitchcott's reported account is to be beloved, Enzo Alemni was his current name.
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know that the cite used isn't the one intended? It may have been/appears to be an intended attack.
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I have no suspicions. I can probably find 50 sources that report the police confirming that he was
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Are you aware of any new information from the investigations being published in the last week? --
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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We know it was a bomb, but it isn't clear yet if the explosion was a bombing or an accident. --
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taxi driver had to have his ear sewn back on after being caught in the blast of his passenger's
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Is the theory of the bomb being for an unnanmed third party merely your personal speculation?
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You just can't trust these BBC sub-headlines, can we. It's just all sensationalist nonsense.
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once asked on a connected subject, "If an Earl gets an OBE, does he become an Earlobe?" Â :)
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example may be a poor one as it's dated 19th, i.e. 7 days ago. And I think we could expect
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I cannot think of a non-terrorist bomb maker, beyond fictional arms dealers in movies like
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We don't yet know why he made it - how could we, the investigations are still ongoing. --
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I cited there says as yet only an alleged attack, and not yet confirmed as terrorism. --
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The baseless third person theory (which I've known only you to suggest) isn't realistic.
2718:"Liverpool bomber was of Middle Eastern background and not known to MI5 - latest updates"
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You are using assumptions then, rather than sourced and substantiated facts. Thanks. --
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I was giving my personal view, based on the RSs I have read. Sorry if you think that's
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Coroner said: built with murderous intent, unclear it was meant to go off when it did.
4443:(especially where the 'perp' is no longer alive, restraint tends to go out the window)
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I am unsure if we should add this as it's not the security guard's direct experience.
2862:, emphasis mine. So detonated early would not appear to exclude this being a bombing.
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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below.
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was "a suspect" for a few days. Or hours anyway. Lucky no mishaps in a taxi there?
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Why would we want to tie ourselves to one source from 2 days ago? What about e.g.
867:-related articles. In so doing it works and collaborates with its mother project
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Yet the cited source calls him a suspect, why would we want to overrule that? --
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and the bomb exploded en route, is it still meaningfully a "hospital bombing"Â ?
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My comments were general, about press and WP tendencies in these circumstances
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
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and also has exclusive pictures "inside the cramped, shabby Liverpool home..."
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2699:"Liverpool Women's Hospital explosion: Man killed named as Emad Al Swealmeen"
2681:"Terrorist incident declared after bomb detonated outside Liverpool hospital"
4270:. That way, the readers will be able to draw their own informed conclusions.
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Template:Did you know nominations/1967 Fairmont State Falcons football team
4422:
Please forgive my sarcasm. "I think we may be waiting a very long time" =
4262:
So what we need to do is to state what the RSes say, bearing in mind what
2962:(which has been speculated as possibly a local 'poppy day' commemoration),
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We follow RSs. Whether they have a crystal ball or not is their problem.
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The investigations are incomplete, so we do not know why he made it. --
952:
931:
552:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to
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As yet, only an alleged attack, and not yet confirmed as terrorism. --
2353:
Did you know that a bomb has just gone off outside a Liverpool hospital
1696:
are still calling him the "suspected bomber" if it's all so clear. --
3326:
No, but we don't have confirmation it was for his own use either. --
2765:"Threat level raised after Liverpool taxi bomb - follow updates live"
2194:), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page.
3824:
a bit out on a libertarian limb here? How many other RSs talk of an
65:
Template:Did you know nominations/Liverpool Women's Hospital bombing
2716:
Mendick, Robert; Evans, Martin; Davies, Gareth (15 November 2021).
2532:
was later commended for "incredible presence of mind and bravery"?
1600:
Yes, and that's in a sub-headline, not the actual article body, so
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56:
was later commended for "incredible presence of mind and bravery"?
4465:
we'll never get past the point of him being "a suspect". I guess
3298:
Making it for someone else doesn't necessarily mean for sale. --
556:
on Knowledge! If you would like to participate, please visit the
2043:. If this was his actual legal name, it should be used instead?
1610:
News headlinesâincluding subheadlinesâare not a reliable source.
964:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on
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Maybe he had a grudge against the Liverpool Women's Hospital.
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They might be reading this and realised their mistake. ;-) --
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Or "A person of a specified kind with whom one has to deal".
863:, a collaborative effort to improve Knowledge's coverage of
70:
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from the investigations, and not resort to speculation. --
2153:'s criticism of the legal profession is just "deflection".
1753:
Liverpool Womenâs Hospital." 17:47, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
3901:
CT sources have said no ideology has yet been identified.
3410:
What is currently in the article that isn't backed by RS?
1373:
Do we have an RS saying it was deliberately detonated? --
560:, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
3843:
a complicated, time-consuming, expensive suicide method.
2251:
taxi driver had to have his ear sewn back on after being
2739:"Liverpool hospital taxi explosion: what we know so far"
1729:
gives in? And on what criteria would they ever do that?
1069:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
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1919:
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871:. If you would like to participate, please visit the
63:. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at
4080:)? The most recent reports just use "bomber", e.g.:
2618:
There is a clarification needed tag in the article.
645:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
461:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
372:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
198:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
3142:What's your suggestion for a better title? Thanks.
1687:also report what the police said, but report it as
297:Knowledge:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography
4643:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography articles
4378:Then I think we may be waiting a very long time.
4112:. Aren't we supposed to keep up with this shift?
3705:"The suspect in the suicide bombing in Liverpool"
1922:"do we follow sources or not?". You realise that
1563:, with the edit summary "sources refer to him as
300:Template:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography
4394:Then I think we may be waiting a very long time
4146:Liverpool bomber". So it could be just you. --
2956:The question isn't simply whether al-Swealmeen
2082:, which we officially can't believe any more.
1810:"Almeni blew up an IED 'Mother of Satan' bomb"
1768:The BBC source from today, which uses 'bomber'
2143:The same point was made this evening, on the
8:
2979:not their intended, different location. Had
2196:No further edits should be made to this page
3788:What are you saying RS don't substantiate?
2573:doesn't seem to be available. Many thanks.
1155:; for the discussion at that location, see
116:
2384:: ... that the taxi driver injured in the
2120:Immigration status and proceedings history
1928:source uses the word "attack" four times?
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1533:Yes, I think that source needs updating.
44:). The text of the entry was as follows:
1770:in the headline, says in the body " the
284:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography
4703:Low-importance Law enforcement articles
3348:Liverpool Women's Hospital bomb product
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1839:should allow "Suspect" as a parameter?
1565:"the bomber" not "the suspected bomber"
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59:A record of the entry may be seen at
7:
4708:WikiProject Law Enforcement articles
4698:Start-Class Law enforcement articles
4673:Low-importance Firefighting articles
4402:(which of course is pretty unlikely)
4134:articles only use "bomber" in their
2938:chose to hire a taxi to take him to
2782:Dearden, Lizzie (15 November 2021).
2025:
1083:Knowledge:WikiProject United Kingdom
1063:This article is within the scope of
958:This article is within the scope of
857:This article is within the scope of
775:Template:WikiProject Law Enforcement
639:This article is within the scope of
544:This article is within the scope of
455:This article is within the scope of
366:This article is within the scope of
281:This article is within the scope of
192:This article is within the scope of
4753:WikiProject United Kingdom articles
4743:Start-Class United Kingdom articles
3828:by the "Liverpool bomber"? Thanks.
3681:Yes, titles are often based on the
2332:" Could we go with something else?
1791:And you're saying "this BBC report
1086:Template:WikiProject United Kingdom
4718:Low-importance Merseyside articles
4663:Low-importance Explosives articles
4633:Start-Class Crime-related articles
4628:Low-importance Automobile articles
3648:wasn't the intended target of the
2529:Liverpool Women's Hospital bombing
2387:Liverpool Women's Hospital bombing
2284:, while his passenger was killed?
2281:Liverpool Women's Hospital bombing
2263:Source: (ear), (everything else)
2026:Perpetrator's name was Enzo Almeni
1453:Wow. Yes, you spend all that time
1147:Liverpool Women's Hospital bombing
570:Knowledge:WikiProject Firefighting
53:Liverpool Women's Hospital bombing
28:Liverpool Women's Hospital bombing
14:
4733:Low-importance Terrorism articles
4678:WikiProject Firefighting articles
4668:Start-Class Firefighting articles
573:Template:WikiProject Firefighting
212:Knowledge:WikiProject Automobiles
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4688:Low-importance Hospital articles
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2526:... that the taxi driver in the
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1961:vs grad scheme anon journalist.
1837:Template:Infobox civilian attack
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4618:Knowledge Did you know articles
3984:. It's not all press releases.
2179:Please do not modify this page.
1103:This article has been rated as
998:This article has been rated as
978:Knowledge:WikiProject Terrorism
909:This article has been rated as
892:Template:WikiProject Merseyside
792:This article has been rated as
679:This article has been rated as
659:Knowledge:WikiProject Hospitals
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495:This article has been rated as
478:Template:WikiProject Explosives
406:This article has been rated as
317:This article has been rated as
232:This article has been rated as
4738:WikiProject Terrorism articles
4728:Start-Class Terrorism articles
4693:WikiProject Hospitals articles
4404:, lie many possible scenarios.
981:Template:WikiProject Terrorism
662:Template:WikiProject Hospitals
135:It is of interest to multiple
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4653:Low-importance Death articles
4590:16:16, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
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3731:17:56, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
3717:17:45, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
3695:17:39, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
3677:17:36, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
3662:16:58, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
3644:That's baseless speculation.
3632:19:32, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
3618:18:22, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
3604:17:42, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
3586:16:58, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
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1261:14:57, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
1247:14:03, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
1231:13:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
1077:and see a list of open tasks.
972:and see a list of open tasks.
653:and see a list of open tasks.
469:and see a list of open tasks.
380:and see a list of open tasks.
291:and see a list of open tasks.
206:and see a list of open tasks.
91:biographies of living persons
4479:17:22, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
4455:10:20, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
4437:15:21, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
2550:to check ALT3. Many thanks.
1795:the best available source"?
294:Crime and Criminal Biography
261:Crime and Criminal Biography
4138:, not in the article body.
4062:suspected suitcase device?
2642:21:57, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
2628:02:59, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
2259:improvised explosive device
2217:23:39, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
2192:Knowledge talk:Did you know
2184:this nomination's talk page
1561:re-added him as perpetrator
751:WikiProject Law Enforcement
744:This article is within the
386:Knowledge:WikiProject Death
101:must be removed immediately
40:column on 13 January 2022 (
4769:
4648:Start-Class Death articles
4604:) 16:21, 30 December 2021â
2940:Liverpool Women's Hospital
1672:It's interesting that the
1109:project's importance scale
1066:WikiProject United Kingdom
1004:project's importance scale
915:project's importance scale
685:project's importance scale
412:project's importance scale
389:Template:WikiProject Death
323:project's importance scale
238:project's importance scale
3280:You mentioned a supposed
2443:we can do something with
1808:p.s. the good old DM has
1674:UPI source you just added
1497:(or many, many more...)?
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4424:"no-one will ever know."
869:WikiProject UK Geography
778:Law enforcement articles
548:WikiProject Firefighting
30:appeared on Knowledge's
4398:2017 Westminster attack
2727:(subscription required)
2188:the article's talk page
2169:Did you know nomination
1216:"Suspected" perpetrator
1089:United Kingdom articles
195:WikiProject Automobiles
1604:regarded as reliable.
860:WikiProject Merseyside
458:WikiProject Explosives
303:Crime-related articles
125:This article is rated
76:
3761:, for instance, says
3749:And we should follow
2801:Bombing or explosion?
2390:was commended by the
2311:). Self-nominated at
1135:The contents of the
1058:United Kingdom portal
961:WikiProject Terrorism
642:WikiProject Hospitals
576:Firefighting articles
74:
2534:Mary Mark Ockerbloom
3820:Isn't the good old
2985:Aldwych bus bombing
2771:. 15 November 2021.
2705:. 15 November 2021.
2687:. 15 November 2021.
2616:Serial Number 54129
2447:on the main page).
2305:Serial Number 54129
2257:of his passenger's
2254:caught in the blast
1925:The Daily Telegraph
895:Merseyside articles
481:Explosives articles
218:Automobile articles
4332:own, since April.
3342:What? There was a
2745:. 15 November 2021
2392:Mayor of Liverpool
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131:content assessment
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1743:Unsurprisingly
1692:. I wonder why
1559:, I see you've
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2286:Source: Ditto.
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4508:
4507:Solipsism 101
4505:
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4488:
4487:Solipsism 101
4485:
4482:
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4480:
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4462:the day after
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4187:the day after
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4078:iNews article
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4034:Solipsism 101
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4017:
4012:
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4006:
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3997:
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3986:Solipsism 101
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3932:Solipsism 101
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3914:Solipsism 101
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3563:Solipsism 101
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3314:Solipsism 101
3311:
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3251:Solipsism 101
3247:
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3068:Solipsism 101
3065:
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3054:
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3023:
3019:
3015:
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3009:
3005:
3004:Solipsism 101
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2884:
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2869:
2865:
2864:Solipsism 101
2861:
2859:
2854:It also says
2853:
2851:
2848:
2844:
2842:
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2825:
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2820:
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2734:
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2723:
2722:The Telegraph
2719:
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2283:
2282:
2277:
2273:
2270:: ... that a
2269:
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2260:
2256:
2255:
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2239:
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2199:
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2174:
2173:
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2160:
2156:
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2148:
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2142:
2141:
2140:
2139:
2135:
2131:
2130:Solipsism 101
2126:
2119:
2113:
2109:
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2100:
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1987:
1983:
1979:
1974:
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1972:
1968:
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1963:Solipsism 101
1960:
1956:
1955:
1954:
1950:
1946:
1941:
1940:
1939:
1935:
1931:
1927:
1926:
1921:
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1867:
1863:
1859:
1858:â Alalch Emis
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1846:
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1731:Solipsism 101
1728:
1724:
1723:
1722:
1718:
1714:
1709:
1708:
1707:
1703:
1699:
1695:
1691:
1686:
1685:current piece
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1588:â Alalch Emis
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1324:â Alalch Emis
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1295:â Alalch Emis
1292:
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1267:â Alalch Emis
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1239:â Alalch Emis
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1234:
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1157:its talk page
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18:
17:
4579:
4467:Salman Abedi
4461:
4442:
4423:
4401:
4377:
4310:
4306:
4186:
4183:The Guardian
4182:
4178:
4176:
4143:
4140:The Guardian
4139:
4131:
4127:
4108:
4099:The Guardian
4098:
4092:
4086:
3909:
3900:
3825:
3821:
3803:
3759:The Guardian
3758:
3591:
3462:The Guardian
3461:
3347:
3343:
3228:
3063:
3046:
2961:
2957:
2857:
2846:
2821:
2804:
2787:
2777:
2768:
2759:
2747:. Retrieved
2743:The Guardian
2742:
2733:
2721:
2711:
2702:
2693:
2684:
2675:
2667:
2660:
2527:
2523:
2449:
2428:
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2404:
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2369:
2362:
2357:Milton Jones
2348:
2334:
2301:
2290:
2279:
2267:
2252:
2221:
2204:
2202:
2195:
2187:
2183:
2178:
2175:
2144:
2123:
2077:
2032:The Guardian
2030:
2029:
1923:
1792:
1771:
1744:
1727:The Guardian
1726:
1694:The Guardian
1693:
1682:
1655:
1606:WP:HEADLINES
1601:
1569:WP:HEADLINES
1409:
1402:
1397:Mexican Wave
1342:WP:HEADLINES
1338:this BBC one
1219:
1211:
1175:
1136:
1104:
1064:
999:
959:
910:
878:
874:project page
872:
858:
793:
749:
680:
640:
591:
567:Firefighting
558:project page
554:firefighting
546:
545:
524:Firefighting
496:
456:
407:
367:
318:
282:
233:
193:
137:WikiProjects
100:
89:
51:
48:Did you know
47:
37:Did you know
35:
27:
26:A fact from
3845:Jim Michael
3804:The Gardian
3790:Jim Michael
3701:Jim Michael
3683:common name
3654:Jim Michael
3610:Jim Michael
3578:Jim Michael
3533:Jim Michael
3499:Jim Michael
3444:Jim Michael
3412:Jim Michael
3384:Jim Michael
3286:Jim Michael
3202:Jim Michael
3158:Jim Michael
3116:Jim Michael
3083:Jim Michael
3049:Jim Michael
2989:Jim Michael
2944:Jim Michael
2769:Independent
2749:15 November
2685:Independent
2575:BlueMoonset
2552:BlueMoonset
2303:Created by
2247:... that a
2151:Priti Patel
1455:since April
1152:its history
209:Automobiles
200:automobiles
187:Cars portal
156:Automobiles
127:Start-class
42:check views
4612:Categories
2981:Ed O'Brien
2668:References
2571:Ritchie333
2548:Ritchie333
2450:Ritchie333
2441:Ben Comeau
2405:Ritchie333
2380:How about
2335:Ritchie333
2079:Daily Mail
1680:, whereas
1656:the bomber
1608:is clear:
1141:page were
970:discussion
886:Merseyside
865:Merseyside
821:Merseyside
739:Law portal
562:discussion
472:Explosives
463:Explosives
435:Explosives
88:While the
4311:suspected
4219:suspect?
4144:suspected
4132:The Times
4087:The Times
4030:Pulitzers
3646:Lockerbie
3590:Now that
3442:Such as?
3426:WP:CATVER
3229:Sell? --
3064:The Times
2847:The Times
2826:, in the
2463:them. --
2349:The point
2272:Liverpool
2249:Liverpool
1772:suspected
1746:The Times
1690:hospital"
1189:Archive 1
975:Terrorism
966:terrorism
938:Terrorism
880:talk page
754:. Please
656:Hospitals
647:Hospitals
619:Hospitals
75:Knowledge
32:Main Page
4447:Pincrete
4410:Pincrete
4289:WP:FORUM
4179:Guardian
4136:headline
4128:BBC News
4001:Pincrete
3968:Pincrete
3910:Die Hard
3904:analysed
3822:Grauniad
3350:? Yeah,
3344:customer
3282:customer
2966:Pincrete
2958:intended
2703:BBC News
2663:T:DYK/P3
2661:ALT3 to
2506:contribs
2394:and the
2291:Reviewed
2205:promoted
2035:reports
1978:Pincrete
1945:Pincrete
1916:Pincrete
1854:Pincrete
1819:Pincrete
1777:Pincrete
1495:this one
1176:Archives
4582:DeFacto
4537:DeFacto
4349:DeFacto
4319:DeFacto
4275:DeFacto
4236:DeFacto
4206:DeFacto
4148:DeFacto
3982:sources
3808:DeFacto
3770:DeFacto
3723:DeFacto
3687:DeFacto
3624:DeFacto
3596:DeFacto
3548:DeFacto
3516:DeFacto
3470:DeFacto
3430:DeFacto
3398:DeFacto
3370:DeFacto
3328:DeFacto
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3266:DeFacto
3246:DeFacto
3231:DeFacto
3188:DeFacto
3130:DeFacto
3101:DeFacto
2925:DeFacto
2897:DeFacto
2808:DeFacto
2613:Kingsif
2595:Kingsif
2278:in the
2229:Comment
2060:DeFacto
1872:DeFacto
1833:DeFacto
1698:DeFacto
1642:DeFacto
1614:DeFacto
1573:DeFacto
1521:DeFacto
1375:DeFacto
1346:DeFacto
1309:DeFacto
1281:DeFacto
1253:DeFacto
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