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pages, which makes the direct editing of categories impossible. This makes categories cumbersome to create and maintain. Because they are decentralized, categories are much harder to edit, requiring a tool like AutoWikiBrowser, which most editors do not know how to use, and force a time-consuming save operation after the addition or removal of any change in a category, which slows edits down to 2 to 6 edits per minute. By comparison, in topics lists you can add, delete, or move hundreds or even thousands of links at a time without having to edit the pages represented by the links being moved. Lists take a fraction of the time to build and maintain, and therefore a single list editor can maintain many times more list items than the category items a category maintainer can handle. Topics lists are also easier to monitor and defend against vandalism and inappropriate changes because they have edit histories, while the edit histories of category pages do not track changes to the categories themselves -- and because of this, entries can be removed from a category and not be noticed by anyone else. Because of the reasons just given, lists with dedicated maintainers are much more comprehensive, while the corresponding categories are typically sparse or filled with holes. Topics lists are more useful: they support scrolling, while categories only display 200 items at a time, but force most topics to be presented in subcategories -- therefore, accessing topics in the category system is more time consuming, and its small segmentation and formatting hinders copy/paste operations. Topic lists support
1458:. It seems to me that this page is meant to be the top-level of a general list of all mathematics articles, so that the pages it links to are subpages of it in some sense. On the other hand there is always some confusion between "List of mathematics articles" and "Lists of mathematics topics". I think it would make more sense to make "Lists of mathematics articles" into a dab page that lets readers go to either of those, since it is not clear which one they would mean if they went to it directly. What do other people think? Is there some better way to organize these? — Carl
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yet have articles, and for spotting articles that have been deleted, allowing a new gap in the coverage of a list to be addressed and corrected. Categories do not support redlinks - deleted pages simply disappear from categories. Topics lists can be formatted, structured with subheadings, supported by images and templates, and aren't forced to be alphabetized -- entries can be presented in whatever order is most appropriate or useful in serving the purposes of the list. Lists rock. Categories suck. Relatively speaking. :-)
748:. So suddenly, this page becomes much more conspicuous to the (non-Wikipedian) public. Since the "recent changes" links on this page appeared above the actual topics lists pages, they were more conspicuous than the links to the actual topics lists. The non-Wikipedian public should be directed first to the topics lists and only later to the "recent changes" lists.
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The fact that it's broad would mean the list would be long -- maybe even half as long as the list of mathematical topics. I would include all of the above. I guess a certain concreteness would be a qualification for inclusion in the list. "Riemann integral" is not conrete enough, IMO. The
Petersen
49:
The mathematicians are here so that we can track all changes on pages remotely related to math with a single "Watch links" operation. This list is not primarily for public consumption, and the alphabetical ordering is unimportant. If you want a nicely organized list of mathematicians, you can go to a
880:
Right, the mathematicians are sorted by the last name (I had forgotten to mention it, but been aware of the thing). This can be a problem when adding new people as software is too stupid to figure out which is the last name in certain cases (I will inspect every single entry individually, which will
388:
If I could just make a general comment. Currently the number of mathematical pages not linked to from this list must run well into three figures. That is, simply finding what is on the site and relevant is an uphill task. Fine-tuning would be welcome in all of the areas (a) organisation by topic (b)
242:
Yes Chas and Axel's arguments are just okay. But I understand also
Michael's torments when he is opening this page. This problem still remains regardless of being just a function for related changes. His second function of being a certain mathematical index is also very useful. How to kill two flies
613:
I hear some good ideas here. Perhaps the relatively simple moves should come first (lists to the 'main page', A-C to own page). Then a bit more policy discussion. For example, the charter is currently drawn up very broadly, and the content reflects that. Things move on, and I agree for example that
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The problem for me is, I have a shortcut which takes me to related changes for this page - if we broke it up into A, B, C, etc., then I'd have to check related changes for math with "A", then check related changes for math with "B", etc. I don't know if there's a workaround; but the main reason for
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better, because more items can be presented on each page -- this is useful for spotting vandalism and inappropriate changes to the articles represented by the links on the list, making the lists a powerful tracking tool. They also support redlinks, which are useful for tracking topics that do not
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If my previous wiki experience elsewhere is a reliable guide though, something has to be done first about the tide of stubby articles and 'opportunistic' edits. Not to speak of the demarcation questions on the physics and compsci and other fronts. Centralising lists are good for the simple reason
1258:
I agree with
Michael. Categories are vastly inferior to topics lists. The entries of a topics list are centralized, that is, they reside on the topics list itself and can be edited directly; categories are autogenerated, with their entries on the pages of the entries rather than on the category
767:
all the articles from the math categories. I would like to sometime have a community-wide discussion of this. For now, I have a question, which would need to be solved if one would ever attempt to update this list automatically. And that is, what are the sorting criteria for the articles?
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Of course, a lot of physics these days is mathematical; and there's no particular reason some topics couldn't be on both lists; after all, this is primarily a maintenance page. But I see no particular reason to include "diode" for example. I can start on this process, but first - comments?
117:
What about deleting one of "regular expression" and "regular expressions"? They point to the same article and are definitely redundant in this list. I would delete "regular expression", because the plural form sounds nicer to my ears (just a feeling ...). What do you think out there?
743:
Someone has put a very conspicuous link to the mathematics category page on
Knowledge's main page. At this time, very few of the mathematics articles on Knowledge are listed on that page. Therefore, I put a warning to that effect on the category page, with a link to
990:
Today I started adding articles from the math categories. I caught some bugs in my code, and as result at some point I reverted the lists 0-9, and A to C. (And I learn again and again that the only way to make sure a bot does its job is to check every single edit. :)
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would be a good candidate. Many articles probably already exist that would be appropriate. I may write one illustrating the use of
Lebesgue's convergence theorems; it was that one that caused me to think of this. Would those who would contribute so indicate below?
367:
How about having two lists? One as an "index" of terms and the other as a list of top level categories. For example, the last list could simply have "Group theory" while the first has
Lagrange's theorem, normal subgroup, group homomorphism, automorphism group, etc..
1105:. To ease reusability, never allow the text of an article to assume that the reader is viewing it at Knowledge, and try to avoid even assuming that the reader is viewing the article at a website. There may also be stylistic issues with using phrases such as
1330:
I've now partially carried out these last two suggestions. I wasn't able to incorporate the recent changes for mathematicians into the template, because there is no page where these are all linked any more. I also didn't introduce much tonal change in the
108:
Yes, for two reasons: some people will use this list to look up a certain term, and we shouldn't hide "poset" from them; also, sometimes a redirect is turned into a real article, and we want to monitor things like that with the "Related
Changes" feature.
32:
determines their classification: that makes it about useless. So
Dirichlet is found under J as "Johann Peter Gustav Lejeune Dirichlet". A few minutes ago, it was under P as "Peter Gustav Lejeune Dirichlet". God knows where he will be tomorrow ;-)
1246:
If you're suggesting it should replace this list, I'd say that's wrong on several counts. That category is not intended to contain all mathematics articles most of which are in subcategories, and categories are vastly inferior to topics lists.
563:
I would suggest that in removing a topic on the grounds that it is a non-math topic, you make clear in your summary that that's the reason for removal, and state which topics were removed. That way those who might disagree are given notice.
894:
To me, the order does not matter absolutely at all either. What I mentioned above, is what I think the order is implicitely assumed from carefully inspecting the existing lists. I will soon ask for more community opinion onthe whole thing.
233:
I agree with Chas: the original reason for this page was to enable "Related
Changes" for a quick list of changes in the math area; it's not really meant for users to look up mathematical topics. They should just use the search engine.
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is just a redirect, we need to keep the singular in the list for this monitoring to work. The plural could be deleted. As a general naming convention, singular terms are preferred in article titles, for the reasons Chas gave above.
965:
I finished adding the articles from the math categories. There are now 6964 articles in List of mathematical topics A-Z, and, together with the articles in List of mathematical topics 0-9, gives us 7197. That's a lot of math
483:
has any outer automorphisms.) The non-Desarguean projective planes would be included if there's a
Knowledge article about them. Many concrete examples are very enlightening and should be objects of study in their own right.
250:
If, for each link in the page, "Related changes" returned changes in both to the article and the talk page, then we could remove about half the current links (the talk: ones). That would probably make the page load a
134:(the Wiki formatting automatically includes the "s" in the link). If only the plural form were only available, you'd have to write ] of ]. The worse part is - without a standard, you'd always be guessing; is it the
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Topics are external to Knowledge, as they exist in the real world. Knowledge's articles exist solely within Knowledge making reference to them a self-reference, and a departure from Knowledge's Manual of Style.
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This page should be split, the content as is can be moved to Wikiepdia: namespace, since its content is mainly links to WP:, the mainspace content can be kept in mainspace, if it isn't already duplicated here.
418:
The answer to the question about ENIAC seems to be that it was added a long time ago (in terms of this page) when, for example, there were also many topics in physics and other mathematical sciences included.
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make this article look more like a mainspace article in an attempt at compromise with those who think it should be moved to Knowledge (I am neutral on this point, but understand that it would be a lot of
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Red links - it seems to me that people should put these in the proper Requested Articles page now, rather than on the list. The RA turnover is quite good, while the math-lists have become unreadable.
642:
Yes, the red links need to go. The RA page works much better for this purpose. I say just leave redirects to common sense. I include then unless they are just minor spelling differences. --
861:
Another problem is that many mathematicians are sorted on their last name. However, I agree with Charles that the ordering is not that important; even an unsorted list of all articles in
1163:
21:−Very nice and useful list. The only strange thing are the names of mathematicians. I guess they should be excluded somehow or they should be in a separate list as they are already in
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for moving there: since people may have added them to the list thinking in good faith that they would attract attention, we should respect that. Some sorting may then be required.
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There are still math-stubs to be categorized, and I was kind of conservative when deciding what a math category is. With the latter, I might need some help and suggestions, see
605:
Those are both really good ideas. The inclusion of A-C on the main page is so odd, though, that I had just assumed it was for strictly technical Wiki software reasons. :-) --
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for the mathematics contents of Knowledge! And since you've made the move to formality by the inclusion of the word "articles", you might as well go all the way by naming it
1189:}} template, the entire page is written as if the reader is an editor of Knowledge. If this text were reused for some reason in another form, it would not make sense.
653:
It is clear to me that RA could be much expanded, if that were a good idea. Probably not a good idea, currently. So, I think red links from this list should be given
665:
As for redirects, I think we should definitely include them for things that might have their own page someday, or things that are very common terms, like poset. --
1203:. Note that the move would be a lot of work (I did one such move earlier) and I would not agree with it, I think those lists look better in the main namespace.
28:
I think they should at least go to a separate list. They clutter the present list. There is the additional problem of their ordering: the first letter of the
91:
177:
In view of the length of this page and the time it takes to load, I think it would be useful to have a page titled "Mathematical topics" on which one sees:
449:, just because it's a famous example? Sin(1/x) thingies? Counterexamples to symmetry of second derivative? Just saying 'example' is leaving it very broad.
800:
Now the tricky part, as there are other characters involved. It looks to me, that the general rule in this list (not universally respected) is to treat:
403:
Why are computer terms on here? I study math and work on computers and the two fields are very different. Some things are arguably pertinent to both (eg
159:
The main purpose of this list is to monitor changes in the math area by using the "Related Changes" feature in the sidebar. Since the article lives at
1050:
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Since the main reason now to have the lists is to use RelatedChanges - for which the order doesn't matter - I'd say any consistent system is good.
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this page to exist is that related changes function. Maybe a database function could be implemented which would make this easier somehow... Cheers
1367:
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They are there so that when you click "Related changes" (which is the main purpose of the page) you see recently modified Talk pages as well. --
1200:
558:
We go through and remove the non-math topics listed, especially if they are already covered on another list of topics. I volunteer to do this.
1115:
Another point is that we're reinventing the wheel here. What is a "list of articles"? There are two types of such lists that come to mind:
1437:
681:
1185:. I think that a move to the Knowledge namespace should be seriously considered. The problem with this page is that, except for the {{
938:
Here I will write from time to time the number of articles we have in the list. So far, before removing the mathematicians, there were
295:. These are topics that I wager a lot of mathematicians know something about, but strictly speaking, they aren't mathematics proper.
707:
197:, and then clicking on any of those would take you to a page that lists mathematical topics with the corresponding initial letter.
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from this list. Does anyone know why they were added? The categories that they are in don't even seem mathematical. Cheers, —
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Refactoring is sure needed but first can we break this up into several pieces? The article is extremely too long to edit. --
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I'd say it's a pretty common standard in the mathematics area to use the singular; that way you can write ] of ]s and get
1061:. I know it would be a lot of work to actually do, and I would be happy to help out where I could. What do people think?
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Good idea. And I'm eager to hear about the outer automorphisms of S6 (if there's anything deep underneath at least).
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This hasn't been a list in many years and now is merely a call to a template. I suggest redirecting this page to
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1011:. I would appreciate it if more people have it on the watchlist and correct me if I add something wrong there.
912:
must anyway be big now, and the old reasons for having a single list of mathematics-related topics have gone.
777:(2) The space character takes precedence to numbers and letters, and numbers take precedence to letters. So,
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page) to here. That way when people come here they can easily choose to browse alphabetically or by category.
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mathematicians should be on their proper list. But it would be good to have proper consensus about that.
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tutorial guidance (c) standardisation of article format to something stable and appropriate at a level.
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1053:- most people wanted it renamed, and it was also suggested that this article (and related) be re-named
803:(3) The apostrphes, quoting characters, commas, and the parantheses, as the empty character. That is,
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Ha, ha. I guess he would end at P, because someone someday will short his name to Peter Dirichlet. --
263:
A related idea I've been thinking of... Many of the topics on this list might be better served by a
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What is the purpose of all the empty Talk: links? Don't they make the page unnecessarily large? --
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Just curious how many we will have after all the articles from math categories will be added.
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We stop listing mathematicians here. It's too easy to forget to add them here as well as to
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are considered equal when it comes to sorting (again, forget the grammar for the moment).
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Move the A-C topics to another page and move the categorical sublists (currently on the
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graph definitely is. Proofs and theorems would not generally be included; mathematical
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Actually, I would say that in a big revision the mathematicians should all be removed:
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Lists are an exception to the no self-references guideline. See the list guideline.
1147:. to be reserved for tables of contents (article lists) and indices of articles. --
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would be included if there's a Knowledge article about them. (6 is the only value of
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section pointing to these links with briefer descriptions in a more appropriate tone.
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Redirects. Is there a policy to make for inclusion, or just leave it to common sense?
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draw attention to the list of mathematics categories and its relation to this list;
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946:(So, a ~ 3500 figure I gave a while ago is wrong, it was due to a bug in my code.)
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There's a discussion on what the reference requirements for lists like this one.
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Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability/Archive_23#Should_there_be_an_exception_for_indexes?
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I'd have done this already, but I'm not sure if it will screw anything up. --
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Knowledge:Village pump (proposals)#It's time for a new namespace: "Contents:"
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daily fetches articles form the categories listed there and adds them to the
673:
If no one objects, in the next couple of days I'm going to do the following:
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Sure, diode and evolution don't belong here for sure. Do you want to start
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Aahh.... the software should really be doing that automatically :-p --
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Yes very good idea Michael. The same thing would probably be with page
131:
1346:
Knowledge talk:Verifiability#Should there be an exception for indexes?
823:(4) The dash character is treated the same as the space character, so
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Absent any further comment for a week or so, I have made the change
842:
I wonder if this is acceptable, and if I missed something. Thanks,
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82:. Why is that so? Can you please decide how to name theorems? --
524:
I don't actually agree with the idea of links to (for example)
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I agree with the above suggestions. Here's another minor one:
376:
The top level topics should be (and I believe are) listed at
763:
As a possible future project I am considering adding to the
687:
Replace the current navigation for the different pages by a
267:. For some examples from recent changes in the last 2 days:
1281:
I have made a couple of edits to this article in order to:
623:
While we're at it, a couple of other policies to work out.
1296:
There are a couple of other changes I would like to make:
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and its subcategories and LoMT would be very useful. --
1199:
I think you should post the note of suggested move to
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there is now no consistency in the way they self-link;
949:
After removing the mathematicians, we are left with
62:
A bit late, sorry for having pushed that move out...
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take more time, but will take care of this problem).
521:
the links to each other are as they should be (??);
429:What do you people think of the idea of creating a
547:I would like to suggest two changes to this list:
217:did not think this would be necessary some day. --
54:, but please don't remove them from here. Thanks,
731:I'll save any other changes for a future day. --
1021:The reason this list is important is because my
839:are treated as equal when it comes to sorting.
649:Do we want to add every current red link to RA?
1450:A move was requested to rename this article to
1300:incorporate the recent changes lists into the
8:
1234:http://en.wikipedia.org/Category:Mathematics
1143:I think it may be time for a new namespace:
680:Move the big list of lists to its own page,
92:Knowledge talk:Naming conventions (theorems)
1123:. What you guys have created is a massive
1420:Is this list a notable topic, or is it a
1310:template, so that they are less dominant;
1288:clarify the purpose of the topical lists;
491:OK - sounds like a 'mathematical atlas'.
1049:This is a result of discussion over at
243:with one shot would be fine to know. --
209:and if someone would start others like
1454:, a page which currently redirects to
1201:Knowledge talk:WikiProject Mathematics
771:So far, I assume the following rules:
463:would be. The outer automorphisms of
415:? These did/do nothing for math.....
7:
1051:List of lists of mathematical topics
720:Lists of mathematical topics (lists)
677:Move 0-9 and A-C to their own pages.
433:? It would list concrete examples;
682:List of mathematical topics (lists)
142:?. So I always use singular, as in
1177:Self-references and suggested move
14:
1313:replace the final section with a
1161:I've posted the above thougth at
575:That is a reasonable request. --
1091:
722:for lists organized by subtopic.
445:Lists are good. Would you want
1446:Proposed move / reorganization
1181:I just left this same note at
1009:List of mathematics categories
1002:List of mathematics categories
973:list of mathematics categories
1:
1533:00:39, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
1518:22:46, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
1452:Lists of mathematics articles
1213:03:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
1194:18:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
1131:Index of mathematics articles
1055:List of mathematical articles
1039:23:58, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
793:(please ignore the fact that
689:Knowledge:MediaWiki namespace
510:On general stuff about these
431:list of mathematical examples
310:? It's a lot of work though.
1547:07:20, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
1424:? Join in the discussion at
1411:08:34, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
1361:01:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
1271:18:43, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
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1059:List of mathematics articles
1507:Lists of mathematics topics
1500:Lists of mathematics topics
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765:List of mathematical topics
758:List of mathematical topics
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703:List of mathematical topics
691:element that's included by
207:List of astronomical topics
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739:Reasons for my recent edit
1489:00:42, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
1471:17:48, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
1183:User talk:Oleg Alexandrov
961:03:22, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
923:Fine with me either way.
846:01:16, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
756:Sorting criteria for the
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735:17:12, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
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372:17:09, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
324:00:34 Feb 10, 2003 (UTC)
122:07:12 Jan 14, 2003 (UTC)
86:09:50 Oct 14, 2002 (UTC)
1099:This page in a nutshell:
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916:16:49, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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113:01:24 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)
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37:23:01 Oct 8, 2002 (UTC)
1016:01:39, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
996:04:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
980:04:54, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
695:. Something like this:
360:21:39 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)
349:19:12 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)
332:14:39 18 May 2003 (UTC)
221:01:04 Feb 5, 2003 (UTC)
211:List of physical topics
45:23:29 Oct 8, 2002 (UTC)
1157:New namespace proposal
1071:Now the page violates
1007:I started a new list,
910:list of mathematicians
553:List of mathematicians
543:Reorganizing this list
532:now being in the list.
393:that they find stuff.
319:List of physics topics
308:List of physics topics
265:List of physics topics
98:Should redirects like
76:Matiyasevich's theorem
52:list of mathematicians
23:list of mathematicians
797:is not grammatical).
1523:Tentatively agree. –
863:Category:Mathematics
90:Discussion moved to
512:mathematical topics
165:regular expressions
80:Dirichlet's theorem
1277:Updating this page
1232:What's wrong with
1117:Tables of contents
285:special relativity
161:regular expression
74:It is OK to write
1492:
1469:
1353:The Transhumanist
1267:The Transhumanist
1222:The Transhumanist
1169:The Transhumanist
1149:The Transhumanist
1135:The Transhumanist
1113:
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1081:The Transhumanist
1045:Proposed renaming
102:also be listed ?
70:Names of theorems
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914:Charles Matthews
852:Charles Matthews
813:Abel's (theorem)
659:Charles Matthews
637:Charles Matthews
618:Charles Matthews
537:Charles Matthews
530:Bernhard Riemann
495:Charles Matthews
453:Charles Matthews
423:Charles Matthews
397:Charles Matthews
281:Electromagnetism
17:Initial comments
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934:Some statistics
925:Oleg Alexandrov
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148:rational number
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1366:Archived at
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1337:Geometry guy
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1323:Geometry guy
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1305:MathTopicTOC
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1107:this article
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1103:free content
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867:Jitse Niesen
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781:Abel theorem
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1422:WP:LINKFARM
835:Abel-Rufini
827:Abel Rufini
528:as well as
378:mathematics
317:Start with
269:temperature
144:real number
1483:Farmbrough
1399:LaTeX2HTML
1393:I removed
1321:Comments?
785:is before
474:for which
30:first name
1438:contribs)
1335:section.
1145:Contents:
966:articles!
733:Walt Pohl
718:See also
667:Walt Pohl
607:Walt Pohl
577:Walt Pohl
382:AxelBoldt
312:AxelBoldt
289:evolution
236:AxelBoldt
215:AxelBoldt
193:, .....,
170:AxelBoldt
111:AxelBoldt
56:AxelBoldt
1525:Quiddity
1416:Linkfarm
1403:sligocki
1386:Removed
1372:Quiddity
1333:See also
1315:See also
655:priority
255:faster.
132:integers
78:but not
1191:Khatru2
1167:. --
1121:indices
1073:WP:SELF
789:Abelian
644:Fropuff
599:Fropuff
526:Riemann
514:pages:
461:objects
407:), but
347:Zundark
150:, etc.
1292:work).
986:Update
714:, etc.
503:--FvdP
322:Looxix
273:charge
128:number
104:--FvdP
64:--FvdP
1395:LaTeX
1388:LaTeX
1370:. --
1063:Tompw
413:ENIAC
358:Timwi
339:Timwi
293:diode
100:poset
1543:talk
1529:talk
1514:talk
1480:Rich
1466:talk
1434:talk
1428:. --
1407:talk
1397:and
1376:talk
1357:talk
1209:talk
1133:. --
1119:and
1035:talk
831:and
409:FIPS
370:Phys
330:Taku
163:and
120:zeno
84:XJam
43:XJam
35:FvdP
1462:CBM
1057:or
1023:bot
712:A-C
708:0-9
253:bit
138:or
130:of
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1486:,
1464:·
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1308:}}
1302:{{
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684:.
591:L
555:.
480:n
476:S
472:n
468:6
465:S
195:Z
191:D
187:C
183:B
179:A
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