1296:. From a cursory look at past discussions on this talk page it becomes clear, that your opinion is not even shared by many editors of that essay, and there is certainly no community consensus for it. I know, that the latter is not a requirement, but still essays should either not be biased or clearly indicate, that they represent a personal opinion only (which your edits fail to indicate), and they are "intended to supplement or clarify Knowledge practices, guidelines, policies, or other Knowledge norms and practices that in fact have communal consensus" and in fact that's how you use them to push something into a particular direction (see above).
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meaning. Defunct is dissolved. Such things exist. Historic is old software, still functional, but maybe for old microcontrollers not in wide use any more or hardly available - such things exist very much. ... The other thing is, the attributes are to be combined. There might be inactive and close projects or software, meaning it has been inactive for a long time (no new releases, no fixes, no action at all) and they are closed by the team, but closed inactive only means it has not been touched for a long time, but also not formally closed, i. e. bad communication. KR
1280:"IF YOU DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO THIS MESSAGE, YOUR EDIT WILL BE ROLLED BACK WITHOUT WARNING. Only place entries here that are links to actual Knowledge articles about notable real-time operating system. External links, redlinks, non-notable sites will be removed. If you have questions, use the talk page. Please try to keep entries in alphabetical order. Adding unnecessary links or text to any other section (such as the "References" section) will also be removed. Thanks."
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reverted many times over the course of months. Instead, you continued to show this editing pattern after I explictly asked you to seek a consensus here before deleting/modifying some contents again and you started to engage in an edit war with me. This would be inappropriate behaviour for any editor, but it is in particular for an admin.
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to list operating systems, for which we don't have articles. I too would like to see more entries with articles, but Rome was not built in a day, so give it time. And even if some entries will remain without article forever, this is still okay by our standards, it still serves the purpose of the article.
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Hi there, it's not clear to me what the implications of some of the status types are. What is the difference between "closed", "defunct", "archived", "inactive'", "historic", and "discontinued"? If possible can someone add an explanation to the article? since I don't know why each status category was
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However, what you did (and still propose) is not a cleanup, but a bulk deletion of lots of entries - entries, which serve the very purpose of this list and are perfectly okay to be listed here according to our community-approved guidelines, and, oddly enough, even some entries, which fulfill your own
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This article was and is a list of real-time operating systems, not a list of particularly notable (by WP's definition) real-time operating systems. Since there never was nor is a requirement for individual entries in an article to be notable by itself, and a list is nothing but an article, it is okay
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Agree, RTOS-specific characteristics could be added. For now the list is a basic comparison from the outside, which I would be fine with for an encyclopedia. Deep-comparison is always tricky. Sometimes you need to contact the vendors to find out what the OS is capable of because the normal data sheet
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Regarding red links, yes, there are some red links in the article, but by far not the majority of links is red, therefore I don't see them as a problem. There is no rule to not have red links in a list of this type. (BTW. Readers, who dislike red links for some reasons can configure the
Knowledge UI
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Most certainly this warrants being a standalone list as there are enough articles that warrent inclusion. No question its been a great contribution that has prevented a lot of spam, thank you. However allowing content to be included simply because it meets the first criteria, while failing the other
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Hi, can you sign your comment please? The meaning could be documented, but what specifically are you unsure about? I would say the attribute is always difficult to fixate, it is hence a rough indicator. The most concerning part is, that it needs to be reviewed (the list) and up to date to have real
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Frankly, how do you come to make this bold change to the article without first seeking consensus with other editors? It's difficult to excuse it with a be-bold-revert-discuss editing style or someone just having a bad day, given that you didn't seek any discussion at all, even not after having been
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by its creator imposing his own view of "standards to apply" rather than those of the community. The responsibility for justifying inclusion of any content rests firmly with the editor seeking to include it, I've seen no such reasonable or policy-compliant argument for these Non notable non-article
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Hu12, your repeated bulk deletions and the attempt to completely redefine the established purpose of this article over the past months without seeking any consensus despite being reverted many times by other editors made it increasingly difficult to still assume good faith. Therefore I hope, we can
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Regarding your given precedent on lists that only meet the first of the three criteria, I don't see why lists would have to fulfill all criteria, providing information in a concise form is certainly the most important purpose of a list. TV channels are in multiple ways a completely different case,
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Although I can still recognize and very much value your attempt to reduce SPAM (so much for the good faith), I find these actions highly questionable as they are going astray our goals. If being worn down by endless SPAM fighting causes such blind shots into the heart of the project as "collateral
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As has been explained already, the article basically IS compliant with the relevant guidelines already (not in every little detail, but in general). There are certainly ways to improve the article, and everybody is welcome to put some effort into it, including you, of course. Improvements may also
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While notability never was a criterium for individual entries in an article, stated facts should still be either obvious or verifiable, ideally by providing a reliable reference of some kind. So, I would agree to put a "more references needed" tag on this article in order to improve the quality of
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This is the first and best purpose, and exactly describes what this article is. You have now asserted (twice) that the second purpose, "2. Navigation: Lists contain internally linked terms... serve(s) as natural tables of contents and indexes of
Knowledge..." and have altered the article to fit
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I searched the web for some info regarding WinCE RT capabilities, I found some documentation and it seems that since version 3 it supports priority inversion avoidance mechanisms and other features required for a RTOS. Probably a note about this (version 3 or above) should be added to the article
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I am not going to defend every single entry in the list (I would not even mind to delete a few of them and add others, but other editors might not agree), but you even deleted entries, for which we do have articles, or which are otherwise well-known and in widespread use in the industry, thereby
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Matthiaspaul, I have adequetly explained my position and supported my position based on community supported policy rationale. EncMstr, has done the same. You yourself agree that improvements are needed here, however I fail to see how attempting to win arguments through attacking my motives with
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While this article may also serve as a navigational aid, its main purpose is to give an informational overview and make quick comparisons possible, hence its table format. There is no guideline which would define that all articles containing lists must be for navigational purposes only (to the
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I do not see TOPS-10 listed. It was used in some very time critical applications. One project was control of the north west power distribution. Bringing power stations on line and off line sinking them up to the grid. In 1972 DEC listed "real time processing" as one of TOPS-10 features. It
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RTX Keil is mentioned as open source however only the CMSIS headers really are. This is the same as saying
Windows is open source since Microsoft distributes headers. All of the RTX and CMSIS actual implementations are proprietary. Even RTX Keil's homepage asks for a quote request for their
1293:, where you are bending the meaning of the essay to reflect your personal opinion rather than what was stated there before (in parts you almost reversed the meaning), again without an edit summary indicating your bold changes ("tweak") and without seeking consensus on the talk page first:
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firstly, they are explicitly mentioned in the guidelines, and secondly, they are highly dynamic and will change every some days. A list of real-time operating systems is something very different, their relevance may change in the course of years or even decades.
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Some operating systems are entirely different but use the same name. For example "ARTOS" is used by
Locamation, and by Mike Fowler for their respective OSes, (and I believe a third company as well). But these OSes are as different as Windows CE and Symbian OS.
1085:, says: "Lists have three main purposes: 1. The list may be a valuable information source. This is particularly the case for a structured list. Examples would include lists organized chronologically, grouped by theme, or annotated lists."
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If you have some evidence that these OSes are *not* real-time, please put it in those articles and specifically state " ... is not a real-time OS ...". But as long as the article for an OS claims it is "real-time", it needs to stay on this
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applies to articles, it does not apply to individual entries in an article. For example, many athletic sport articles which do not list yearly winners would be considered incomplete even if each winner and competition was not notable.
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You attempted to completely reverse the established purpose and type of this list by intimidating other editors not to add new entries unless they meet your new personal criteria - the following has been added by you to the article:
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There are some ten-thousand RTOSes in the wild. Therefore, the list in its current form and length does in no way risk to become a listing of every possible RTOS under the sun. There are still many more RTOS which would belong into
1221:. Precedent on "lists" that only meet the first of the three criteria is deletion. Any deletion discusion here would not end in deletion, however it would end up with this article being pruned and cleaned. You stated back in 2008
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to not show red links as such.) But if red links are really such a problem for you, I propose to "unlink" some of the red links and just leave them as raw black text entries in the list (as it is supported by guidelines as well).
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Common selection criteria: ... Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria. These lists are created explicitly because most or all of the listed items do not warrant independent articles: for example,
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I am not sure those can be classified as "RTOS", possible targets are embedded devices but this alone does not give them real time capabilities. Probably we should put them among the general purpose operating
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won't tell you. (I have done such things.). I'd say the list (table) should stay like this but should be updated. There are a number of RTOS missing and I guess links need to be re-verified if working etc. KR
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I think that should address everyone's interests: keep the main article clutter free, provide a place for an exhaustive list which every RTOS developer wants, provide a check list for potential customers...
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Nobody is claiming ownership of this article, Hu12. It is just that this article was developed with a particular (and valid) scope and it is you who wants to change that very purpose without consensus now.
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90%, (down to once or twice a month) and the edit rate here initially correlated to a deflection rate of 25–40%. That is, at least a quarter of would be spammers were improving this article.
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This list, over the past four years has steadily degraded due to lack of maintenance, became a repository for any indiscriminate items, un-navigable and unhelpful for readers. Knowledge
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1005:...lists which exist primarily for development or maintenance purposes (such as a list that consists primarily of red links) should be in project or user space, not the main space.
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There is another entry in the table like that too, though I don't immediately see it. However, I've taken the liberty of filling in the table appropriately. Comments? —
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This is a community recognized guideline which states that every item in a list can be non-notable. Usefully collecting, organizing, and summarizing related information
1131:, which I notice you are quite active in. (I was not active for long.) The experiment was wildly successful: it immediately decreased spam (of related articles) by
856:...lists which exist primarily for development or maintenance purposes (such as a list that consists primarily of red links) should be in project or user space,
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Effectively deflect would-be spammers into providing structured, useful information as a resource to all who are interested in RTOSs. This article steadily
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based upon collaborative, good faith editing, and consensus. I've attempted multiple times make the proper improvements, however it seems there is a case of
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I think an OS whose latest version is real-time should be listed here as a real-time operating system, even though the earliest versions were not real-time.
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This hive of external links used to be in the original article before the split; they should be incorporated into the appropriate entries in this article.
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Absolutely. If you know enough about them, please generate unique names for them and divide the entry into multiple lines accordingly. Something like
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contrary) or contain only blue-links to existing articles. You are reading something into our guidelines and policies, which simply isn't stated there.
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are accepted as consensus among editors and are considered a standard that users should follow. I do agree to at least converting the redlinks to "
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is a standard (I prefer calling it specification), and many variants of the OS exist. Updating article, closing this comment section.
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provided locking of tasks in memory and provided 10 high priority run queues. If there is a reason it's not listed pleas explain.
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that description. And now you have added the third (and inferior) purpose from the guideline, an article development list.
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community agreed upon consensus and is considered a standard that all users should follow. I fail to see how it would be
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This should help to sort out active projects from old/dead projects or systems interesting only as historical reference.
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At the moment these two differnt OSes are merged to the same line. In my opinion these should be on separate lines.
413:, fine with me, add it? Many more RTOS not in this list and links probably need updating throughout the document. KR
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and even when you have a license to MDK, you don't get the license for the chip manufacturer's implementation.
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base entries in this case. I was considering that myself, and am pleased you brought it up. thanks.--
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mischaracterization reaches that goal. With that said, I think we all agree that
Guidelines such as
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involving removing/reinstating RTOS entries in bulk, apparent on notability grounds. While the
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I was wondering what drives you to exhibit this editing style and found these recent edits of
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Yes, operating systems that target embedded devices are often incorrectly described as "RTOS".
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which was being hit at around ten times per week. At the time, it was an experiment for
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for a certain type of operating systems, not an actual implementation... (compare with
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HighRely Inc, - Provider of FAA Approved RTOS Certification and use of RTOS in
Avionics
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column is intended to reflect whether it is still supported and under development. —
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ChibiOS/RT - A very complete, GPL licensed, RTOS supporting multiple architectures
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can some of the table headers/contents get an explanation? mainly "Status"
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Add performance. Is RTOS deterministic? Typical latency in CPU cycles.
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577:"Windows CE conforms to the definition of a real-time operating system"
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MaRTE OS - Minimal Real-Time
Operating System for Embedded Applications
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The release number often creates a quagmire of updates. Anyway, the
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Digital Signal Processor Optimized RTOS, 16/32/64 bits
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Where is the "Linux RT patch" (PREEMPT_RT) by Ingo Molnar?
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This article serves multiple purposes and has worked well:
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the various entries over time, but not to mass delete them.
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Nano-RK: An open source RTOS primarily for sensor networks
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to any/every real-time operating system in existence. --
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FreeRTOS: A Free RTOS that runs on many architectures
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DrRtos: A Free RTOS that currently only works on ARM7
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or user spaces to keep track of unwritten articles.
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ARTOS: duplicate names, different operating systems
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1381:— Preceding
1377:
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1244:
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899:not a guide
768:—Preceding
620:N'SallaNuto
591:68.0.124.33
541:N'SallaNuto
411:Steamerandy
396:Steamerandy
345:N'SallaNuto
1421:Categories
989:Navigation
903:repository
774:84.72.31.5
573:Windows CE
489:NuttX RTOS
202:Kirliyarna
41:List-class
1219:WP:NOTDIR
891:WP:NOTDIR
885:. Please
866:6,889,003
562:SymbianOS
228:Jharris99
121:Computing
108:computing
104:computers
70:Computing
1383:unsigned
1133:at least
963:, which
820:edit war
770:unsigned
725:Andrec79
647:standard
557:However:
539:systems.
236:contribs
224:unsigned
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1204:EncMstr
940:here...
895:WP:SPAM
881:to the
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521:EncMstr
389:TOPS-10
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282:EncMstr
148:on the
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1144:states
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1012:WP:RED
901:nor a
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682:Yes,
651:POSIX
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586:list.
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