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1814:, the only time in Jewish services where Jews practice complete full-body postration. The service includes a poem about the radiance of the High Priest upon exit his successful exit from the Most Holy Place, which is compared to the beams of light the Bible ascribes to Moses' countenance upon his return from Mount Sinai. Orthodox services also add prayers lamenting the destruction of the Temple, and praying for the speedy rebuilding of the Temple and the restoration of sacrificial worship.
2580:). This means that 1.5 billion, give or take, actually represents 22% of the world's population. I understand that there's a certain interesting point in thinking that almost a quarter of the world is comprised of Catholics/Orthodox Christians, so I left the 25% in the paragraph. But because it is isn't quite 25%, I modified the statement by adding 'almost'. This preserves the notion of 'a quarter of the population' but adds that it isn't quite a quarter of the population.
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1657:, for example, provides dimensions indicating a clear Jewish tradition that while it was centered North-South, it was placed significantly to the west on the East-West axis. In light of this tradion, a claim that it was at the center not only should not be taken as fact, in the absence of a source the claim should be deleted. Note that the diagram reflects this assymetry and shows a location which is clearly well to the west of center. --
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1963:"Holy of Holies", but a collection of the holiest shrines or cities in a number of different religions. This is worth an article, but if that's what it's to be it's misnamed, and neither the chamber of the Jerusalem Temple nor its Mormon meaning belong here. I therefore propose the following reorganization:
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To the extent that any religion does apply "Most Holy Place" or a phrase that is customarily translated that way, as a proper noun to any specific building or site (or class of buildings or sites), this should be the subject of the present article. In that case it should contain a either a hatnote or
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The Church of the Holy
Sepulcre (supposedly the location of the crucifixion of Jesus) was stated as the Holy of Holies for all Christians, whereas this is not necessarily the case, particularly with a large portion of Christianity that does revere any one location as a "Most Holy Place." Therefore I
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The article seemed to be too biased towards
Christianity, with reference to the amount of information available on the topic. I propose moving all the information on Christianity in a separate article titled "List of significant religious sites in Christianity" and having only a transcribed version
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My intention was to try to make some sense of of all this without starting a content dispute over the way "Holy of Holies" is defined in that article. On the whole I agree with you that a cite is desperately needed there, if it's correct. But if it is, it's not how the word is used that I have ever
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perspectives that the Ark in a Jewish synagogue is comparable to the Holy of Holies in the Temple in
Jerusalem. There are resemblances, but one just isn't the same as the other. No branch of Judaism would find the sort of analogy this article claims. Orthodox Judaism would say the Holy of Holies is
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However, Knowledge is an encyclopedia and must describe the subjects it covers accurately. When describing a religion, it shouldn't ascribe to the religion a claim that members of the religion wouldn't themselves use or agree with. Would you be equally ready to agree with a claim that, for example,
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The information provided on the most recent edition of this article concerning the LDS church provides a more basic
Christian perspective on the LDS church. As well, the addition of the Sistine Chapel to the secton on Roman Catholic religious sites is to emphasize the importance of the Holy See in
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synagogues (at least in part). In many
Orthodox synagogues (and some traditionalist Conservative synagogues), worshippers recite and mime the act of sprinkling blood at each traditional sprinkling point, and postrate themselves fully on the floor at points in the service when the High Priest would
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in the
Wilderness." In the ancient world, temples were often oriented to a cardinal point of the compass, and priests entered therein as a symbolic cosmic journey which progressed, in linear manner, from the profane to increasing levels of sacred space, until the "most holy place" or "holy of
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This might be an overly narrow view of what the Holy of Holies is for. Yes it's where the
President of the High Priesthood (and of the Church) confers with the Lord, but it is also used for the ordinance called the "second anointing," and other temples have rooms specially set aside for that
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It would be nice to add some
African religious sites like those of the Oromo people of Ethiopia, Lake Hora. Many exist, just want to remind editors here that to not forget poor old Africa. And there are those in Islam like Toubaa, Senegal. I would love to help but let me start by suggesting.
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I think the mention of
Varanasi as the holiest place in Hinduism is plainly wrong. Hinduism doesnt have one holiest place but consider many. One thing about Hinduism is freedom of choice and there are many holy sites equaly 'holy' if you have to say. I recommend that we remove the mention of
2365:? Or both, one redirected to the other. By making "place" or "site" plural, it allows for a pluralistic approach to the article, and perhaps most importantly, it completely betrays the exclusive, superlative concept couched in a singular "Most Holy Place" or "Holy of Holies." Regards, --
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the Pope worships the Buddha, on the similar grounds that
Knowledge isn't censored and what Catholics believe simply doesn't matter? The issue isn't whether or not Catholics would consider this sacriligious. The issue is whether the article would be accurate. Same here. --
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Perhaps the "of" in these translations is a concession to ease of reading in English? Might they also be translated, "Holiest holy ", "Vainest vanity", etc.? "Songiest song" doesn't flow at all in English, but would that convey the intention of the Hebrew construction?
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While the Church of the Resurrection is the holiest shrine in Christianity for the vast majority of the world's Christians (so "some" is badly understating the case), it is never designated by this title and does not play a corresponding role in the life of the Church.
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One more item: the proposed article name of "Holiest Place" still allows for confusion. In some traditions, "holiest place" might be taken as a synonym to "holy of holies." Holiest place lends a superlative air to it that represents the original idiom.
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And I cut it completely. "Most Holy Place" in Christianity refers to the inner chamber of the Temple at Jerusalem, just as in Judaism. In churches with a liturgical tradition there may be a section of each church building that is believed to
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The diagram should be reversed right-to-left, as the entrance to the tabernacle and temple faced to the east. I recognize that the diagram is not specifically drawn with compass directions specified, but I feel it would be better.
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article. I had reservations about mentioning the KJV Bible in the section on Judaism. Maybe that statement would fit better elsewhere in the article, though it is quite relevant in the subsection where the idiom is discussed.
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2127:. If the Baha'i don't actually call the Shrine "Most Holy Place" there's no reason to associate it with that phrase at all -- unless you've mistaken "Most Holy Place" for a common noun instead of a proper noun.
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Are there any (preferably citable) examples other than Judaism and LDS? And are they more or less loose renderings from their original languages? I'm not trying to argumentative; I'd like to find out.
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purpose. Furthermore, the Celestial room today fills a role analogous to the Holy of Holies during the presentation of the Endowment. Like I said, I think the definition used here is overly narrow.
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This title denotes its superior excellence, according to the Hebrew idiom; so holy of holies, equivalent to "most holy" (Ex 29:37); the heaven of heavens, equivalent to the highest heavens (De 10:14)
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irreplacable, while Reform Judaism would say it is no longer relevant. Sources need to be supplied to support these claims -- and I challenge anyone to find mainstream Jewish opinion that does so.
1887:, meaning Most Holy Tomb. From Greek it is translated to all other languages nonetheless the original text is dominant when comes to translation confusions. Same as the Creed or the Pater Noster
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In this section, we have the statement that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre represents over 1.5 billion Christians or 25% of mankind. 'Mankind' is estimated to have around 6.7 billion people (
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Tnere are actually numerous mentions of the Holy of Holies in Jewish Services. There are references to it all over Psalms, for example. This material simply duplicates material covered in the
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Per the notability guidelines as long as there is significant, independent, reliable secondary-source coverage of the subject there is no reason why you cannot cite sources and add this in.
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also has a Holy of Holies off the celestial room, but it is not used as such - though it is not used for another purpose either. But this is just from memory - any other thoughts out there?
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because, as it stands, the KJV rendition of a Hebrew idiom has been overlaid with any "most holy place" and not necessarily those involving an actual "Holy of Holies." Regards, --
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should contain a collection of brief sections and main article redirects to the main articles on the places so called under their correctly transliterated native names such as the
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Agree with the split in articles. Reworked wording; "a room that is believed to be a place where God dwelt"--in the past tense--is not fitting with LDS Theology or terminology.--
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Traditional Judaism is irrelevant. Knowledge is not censored and Wikipedians are most certainly not prohibited from writing a word because it offends some religious sect.
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I agree with much of the above. In recognizing that more than one religion has an actual "Holy of Holies," the unintended consequence was that the KJV Biblical rendering
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I generally agree with your proposal. If the intention is simply to describe various religions' holiest places, the title should be a common noun, not a proper noun, and
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unless there are religions that traditionally use the term "Most Holy Place" as a proper noun and do not use the term "Holy of Holies". I also agree that
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I have heard that the repetition of a word in Hebrew is intended to be an emphasis of the word. The following repetitions appear to have that intent (
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holies" was reached (usually where the god of the temple {pantheism}, head god of the pantheon {henotheism}, or one and only God {monotheism} resided).
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Fittingly, the Judaic Holy of Holies is often the source of the others, making each cognate, although it is important to note that the concept of a
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2098:. On another note, while the term "Most Holy Place" does not appear in the literature of the Baha'i Faith, "Most Holy Shrine", referring to the
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The sentence "The Jews consider this blasphemous" was recently added - is there a reference for this - as I have not heard of this before today?
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I am reasonably well-acquainted with ancient religions. Which of them called the innermost cult chamber of their temples the "Holy of Holies"?
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Of course, every religion has its holy places, and perhaps one place out of them all is considered the "most" holy, which is the issue with
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Discussion of the King James translation as "Most Holy Place" and the idiom could be helpful somewhere. Both were mentioned in the
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The emphasis on the degree of superlative intended by the Hebrew construction may be missed by those who are unaware of the idiom.
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in all synagogues, the worshipers face in the direction of the Holy Ark, which contains the holy Torah scrolls belonging to every
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I'm not sure I really like my proposed new title for the new article myself, and no doubt someone can come up with a better one.
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2048:. Defining a "Holy of Holies" as simply a special holy place that's inside a building has always struck me as a bit of
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is now redundant. Keeping with the pluralism of this new configuration, I fleshed out the Latter-day Saints section.--
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The heading of this article says: "For the term Most Holy Place as used in the King James Version of the Bible, see
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1744:(Biblical: אֲרוֹן קֹדֶשׁ ʼĂrôn Qṓḏeš). It is usually built along the wall of the synagogue closest in direction to
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What about the many indigenous groups out there, many of which have sacred sites of their own? Take, for example,
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It looks to me as if this article has gone off the rails. "Most Holy Place" is an English rendering of the Hebrew
1948:, specifying the inner chamber of the Jerusalem Temple. As a translation it may or may not be very high quality:
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
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in Oregon which is considered the most sacred site of the Klamath people. Shouldn't they be considered, too?--
2287:? If so, then yes--there are other examples besides Judaism and the LDS; in fact, each religion mentioned in
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are constructed in such a way that the most holy spot is the "Holy Ark" in the sanctuary. The place where the
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It looks like the discussion has reached general agreement that the article should be renamed and settled on
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Unfortunately my HTML-fu is a little weak and rusty these days, or I'd do it myself. Maybe I'll come back.
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should be limited to religions have a traditional connection to that term, and there should be a series of
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To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant
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If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used.
2638:"List of significant religious sites"? Knowledge calling anything "sacred" seems like a bad idea to me. --
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as an archaism, sees synagogue Arks as largely or wholly replacing the reverence formally due the Temple.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
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in ordinary contexts. Accordingly, it would be appreciated if editors not use the name directly. --
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of the same in the current topic to protect it from being too biased towards any religious faith
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they are not only vanity but vanity of vanities, the vainest vanity, vanity in the highest degree.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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and thus a distinct article from this one on sanctuaries in various faiths. Will move details on
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article, as there are two different places as well as different religious traditions involved. --
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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https://web.archive.org/web/20100406014259/http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/ecumenical/ooc-e.html
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I agree mostly with the above. Maybe what's best is to to move most of this page's content to
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Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
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Bethlehem is a sacred place in Christianity. It is where Mary, the mother of Jesus was born.
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With the article being reconfigured to encompass "multiple religious traditions," having a
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but avoids the confusion inherent in the KJV rendition. I say move forward with renaming
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If there are no such places, this article should be a simple redirect to "Holy of Holies"
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Removed a claim in the article stating that the Holy of Holies was at the "center"e. The
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However, what we have here are not places bearing the either the name "Most Holy Place"
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the
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Just for your information the Schepulcher in the original Greek text is referred as
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after discussing other alternatives, so I'm going to go ahead and move the article to
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appears very regularly. I don't know if that deserves a mention or not. Regards, --
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is a more literal rendering of the phrase, and at least according to a comment on
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with that part of the Temple, but it's practically never called "Most Holy Place".
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in the Temple which is regarded as retaining a much higher degree of sanctity.
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This article's religious POV appears to take a position based strictly on the
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then you may need to upload it to Knowledge (Commons does not allow fair use)
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But the term "Most Holy Place" no longer appears anywhere in the body of the
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TCC/Csernica, in your question, are you referring to other religions having
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That illustrates the mess nicely. One could justifiably make a redirect at
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Catholicism, not to mention the fact that the Papal conclave occurs here.
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I think that's what happened here; most of the sections are about the
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The Manti Temple's Holy of Holies is now being used as a sealing room.
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became a catch-all category for ANY "Most Holy Place," whether a
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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2201:Holiest Place
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2125:Holiest place
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2092:Holiest place
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2052:. There's no
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2022:Holiest place
2019:
2018:
2014:
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1778:Torah reading
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1764:. During all
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1552:discussion.--
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1030:List articles
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123:Find sources:
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110:Verifiability
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52:Learn to edit
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18:
17:
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3081:source check
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2660:— Preceding
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2412:Shirahadasha
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2058:Shirahadasha
1995:
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1825:Shirahadasha
1810:mention the
1807:Conservative
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1735:
1712:
1701:Shirahadasha
1693:Hebrew Bible
1673:Hebrew Bible
1670:
1659:Shirahadasha
1648:
1642:Location in
1633:Shirahadasha
1619:
1612:Shirahadasha
1602:Traditional
1583:
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1528:Shirahadasha
1502:
1478:
1471:Shirahadasha
1457:Shirahadasha
1450:
1446:
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1396:
1388:Anchors are
1385:
1351:
1311:
1244:Guidelines:
1239:project page
1228:
1166:
1127:articles to
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1111:
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1012:project page
1001:
952:
912:
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611:
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563:
525:
501:Christianity
492:Christianity
485:
430:Christianity
402:
373:project page
362:
313:
289:Bahá'í Faith
284:welcome page
276:project page
272:Baháʼí Faith
265:
228:Bahá'í Faith
209:WikiProjects
171:
165:
157:
150:
144:
138:
132:
122:
94:
19:This is the
3134:65.78.2.156
2796:Don't panic
2711:Don't panic
2601:Crater Lake
2119:, and list
1774:Sefer Torah
1742:Aron Qodesh
1734:scrolls or
443:Oriental O.
435:Catholicism
148:free images
31:not a forum
3188:Categories
3118:Report bug
3008:Report bug
2620:Peter Deer
2557:Varanasi.
2410:. Best, --
2390:(contribs)
2330:(contribs)
2300:Tabernacle
2251:(contribs)
2138:(contribs)
2015:Discussion
2005:(contribs)
1915:(contribs)
1871:(contribs)
1852:correspond
1841:Soonercary
1821:Yom Kippur
1803:Yom Kippur
1750:Tabernacle
1737:Sifre Tora
1728:synagogues
1580:Blasphemy?
1512:Tabernacle
1016:discussion
439:Eastern O.
280:discussion
199:List-class
3128:Bethlehem
3101:this tool
3094:this tool
2991:this tool
2984:this tool
2438:article.
1889:Italiotis
1746:Jerusalem
1507:, of the
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
3107:Cheers.—
2997:Cheers.—
2804:non-free
2723:non-free
2662:unsigned
2578:POPClock
2552:Hinduism
2164:Jeff3000
2104:Jeff3000
2054:evidence
1677:Oral Law
1142:Religion
1120:Religion
1073:Religion
734:Hinduism
725:Hinduism
681:Hinduism
378:Buddhism
369:Buddhism
341:Buddhism
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
3031:my edit
2901:my edit
2875:Inayity
2582:Ultatri
2375:I like
2367:Rojerts
2312:Rojerts
2213:Rojerts
2179:or not.
1752:'s and
1724:Judaism
1722:Within
1604:Judaism
1564:Rojerts
1554:Rojerts
1495:Rojerts
1481:Rojerts
1430:Jdavidb
1405:before.
1354:on the
1254:Sikhism
1235:Sikhism
1194:Sikhism
1169:on the
1048:on the
955:on the
866:on the
839:Judaism
830:Judaism
786:Judaism
761:on the
528:on the
405:on the
316:on the
154:WP refs
142:scholar
2559:Abhask
2538:Ac44ck
2518:Ac44ck
2449:edit.
2387:(talk)
2327:(talk)
2248:(talk)
2135:(talk)
2085:heard.
2002:(talk)
1937:, and
1912:(talk)
1868:(talk)
1799:avodah
1770:Jewish
1760:— the
1697:Talmud
1681:Talmud
1651:Talmud
1587:Trödel
1509:Jewish
205:scale.
126:Google
2050:WP:OR
1732:Torah
1715:WP:OR
1572:Manti
1021:Lists
980:Lists
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
3176:talk
3138:talk
2879:talk
2859:talk
2832:talk
2750:talk
2670:talk
2644:talk
2624:talk
2609:talk
2586:talk
2563:talk
2542:talk
2522:talk
2044:and
1726:all
1655:Yoma
1592:talk
1514:and
1469:. --
1386:Tip:
1131:and
1129:good
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
3170:. —
3075:RfC
3045:to
2965:RfC
2935:to
2925:to
2915:to
2456:):
2431:."
2382:TCC
2361:or
2322:TCC
2243:TCC
2211:.--
2130:TCC
2123:at
2115:to
1997:TCC
1907:TCC
1863:TCC
1756:'s
1540:to
1522:to
1346:Mid
1248:-
1161:Mid
1133:1.0
1040:Low
947:Low
858:Low
753:Low
520:Mid
397:Mid
308:Mid
176:TWL
3190::
3178:)
3140:)
3088:.
3083:}}
3079:{{
2978:.
2973:}}
2969:{{
2881:)
2873:--
2861:)
2853:--
2834:)
2826:--
2752:)
2744:--
2672:)
2646:)
2626:)
2611:)
2588:)
2565:)
2544:)
2524:)
1979:.
1961:or
1933:,
660:).
620:).
596:).
572:).
445:/
441:/
437:/
433::
156:)
54:;
3174:(
3136:(
3120:)
3116:(
3103:.
3096:.
3010:)
3006:(
2993:.
2986:.
2877:(
2857:(
2830:(
2748:(
2668:(
2642:(
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2607:(
2584:(
2561:(
2540:(
2536:-
2520:(
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