666:. The lead should summarize the article, so we should certainly mention that she has been attacked for her hunting, but the details of this incident should be in the body. This wasn't the only time she was attacked, or the first time. Third, it really didn't have much of an influence on her. Compare, for example, to the other incident detailed in that section - then, she was uninvited from a major TV show - here, nothing happened, she wasn't banned from SA, no one stopped viewing her show, likely no one started viewing her show. Fourth, it didn't really have a long term impact on how the world sees her. There was certainly international news coverage of the incident, but it stopped very quickly; all the articles about it are from November 2013. Meanwhile, her show has gone on for years, and recently expanded internationally. Look at the continuing indepth articles about her:
1085:, devote little or no coverage to that specific hunt. So that incident is covered both proportionately and in depth, even if I do say so myself: the death threats, the Ricky Gervais, the international coverage, all of that. Hagiography? You'll notice I even found and wrote about an earlier notable incident of criticism of her career that that you don't mention - but I do. I wrote about everything I could find, in proportion both to its coverage and its effect on her life. That's what we do. And, of course, even if you don't like the style -- which, if you like, I'll glad to discuss with you, until we will hopefully be able to reach an article we can both agree on -- that is no reason to call it either an autobiography or a COI article. Those are very different things. --
472:
451:
401:
383:
624:
trophies - as for the hunt itself. She's only had one record setting trophy, and she's been hunting all her life. So changing "hunter" to "trophy hunter", incorrectly limits her scope. Second, the term "trophy hunter" is mostly used as a derogatory by those that don't like her. We should certainly mention it in the section about criticism of her hunting, but not use it as the primary way to describe her in the first sentence, that would clearly be taking a stand against her,
1081:, we don't make those into hit pieces, as that link says. You will notice ALL of those links are from 2013, covering a single incident in her life; this is the article about her life, not just that one incident. She is notable from her career, which has lasted almost two decades, not for shooting one lion; you'll notice that the sources in the article from either before or after 2013, which are plentiful, and more than enough for
299:
278:
309:
208:
190:
100:
49:
159:
21:
218:
738:
Well, as you can see, that sentence is sourced with 4 sources. 2 from South Africa, one from the US, one from the UK. 3 countries (on as many continents), clearly international. And yes, all 4 mention both the horrible attacks and the benefits of controlled hunts, just 2 focus more on one than on the
967:
The article reads like a hagiography and contains an excessive amount of intricate detail about her personal life, including the lives of her dogs, stepchildren, and so on and so forth. She is best known for the intense backlash she faced in South Africa and other countries over a tasteless photo of
943:
writing most of the article, in 2016 or so, contact her and ask if she would be so good as to release images for the article, which she was kind enough to do. Then again, just last year or so, I wrote her when I heard she had married, which she confirmed, and released more images, all of which I put
934:
added
Autobiography and Conflict of Interest tags. I would be very interested to know why she believes this article was to a large extent written by the subject. See, I always thought this article was mostly written by me! This can be seen from the article edit history. I have never met the subject,
698:
word where it wasn't needed. Note that
Tadeusz didn't source that "claims" - that's because they're not "claims", as Bachman didn't claim anything; as the article says, she didn't say almost anything in response to the incident. They are specifically backed by sources that are in the article. Here
623:
First, that doesn't really describe her as well as just "hunter". After all, she does a lot of things associated with hunting, especially teaching others through her programs, seminars, and instructional videos. She isn't really famous for the trophies she has taken - though no doubt she has taken
944:
in the article. I have received nothing from her except those images, the confirmation of that information, and possibly appreciation: she is not the most effusive person, but I gather she must at least somewhat like it, since she at least didn't object.
947:
So, I am reverting the tags, and am very interested why
Tataral thought they were appropriate, especially without contacting the editor whom she presumably thought had the conflict of interest; whether that was me, or any other editor, for that matter.
734:
tag into the sentence: "International commentators claimed that the online anger directed at
Bachman was extraordinary, sexist, and misogynist, and that evidence showed that banning hunting drives species extinct much more than controlled hunts do."
604:, we should probably return to article to the "status quo ante" as we discuss, but that's just an essay, though a long standing and influential one, so if Tadeusz disagrees I won't press the point. Anyway, let me address the changes individually.
968:
her having killed a lion some years ago. Beyond that, she isn't a very notable or well-known figure. It's also curious how onesided and overwhelmingly positive the article is, especially considering the highly critical reception of her actions
739:
other, so I thought they would be more appropriate split. So "who" is clearly answered. If others really want, I can find even more reliable sources writing this, but I somehow thought 4 would be enough. --
1031:
691:
Again in the lead (what is this with making all changes in the lead, anyway?), Tadeusz changed "she has received personal online attacks" to "She claims to have received personal online attacks".
996:
786:
715:, which is putting it mildly. I will discuss the other changes, but I think I'm going to make an exception here, and remove this "claims" change entirely, without discussion, per the
138:
1161:
522:
512:
92:
1032:
https://gazette.com/news/show-presenter-melissa-bachman-slammed-after-posting-photo-of-lion-she-killed-in-south-africa/article_11e9eeeb-f6bf-5d82-816a-4f877940796e.html
1166:
981:
31:
1016:
646:
682:. If they don't think it was a big deal, we shouldn't give it so much space in the lead. Finally (and this time, least important, this is only cosmetic), the
1146:
1116:
488:
143:
1156:
1141:
126:) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
1136:
365:
355:
997:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/us-tv-presenter-melissa-bachman-blasted-over-smiling-photo-with-lion-she-stalked-and-killed-8944363.html
1111:
668:
1126:
952:
Tataral put the tags on this article in 19 June 2024, and did not edit anywhere on
Knowledge for 2 weeks before or after that date. So ... why? --
479:
456:
236:
118:
88:
1041:
641:
of herself next to a dead lion with the comment "what a hunt!" went viral on social media and was widely condemned by animal welfare advocates."
986:
700:
674:
1021:
644:
First, "She became known..." is simply not true. She was known before then, with multiple in depth articles about her before the incident:
1026:
331:
240:
1001:
935:
have no particular interest in hunting, and wrote the article not due to her request or specifications, but to the fact it was listed on
1151:
1131:
1121:
1011:
889:
712:
244:
971:
939:. Before I saw it there, I had not known her from Adam, and I wrote the overwhelming part of it without any input from her. I did,
628:. Finally, and most important, the majority of sources for the article do not describe her as a trophy hunter, merely as a hunter.
235:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
1006:
991:
982:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/we-re-right-to-be-shocked-by-melissa-bachman-s-photo-with-a-hunted-lion-8947703.html
805:
417:
1036:
658:
549:
322:
283:
231:
195:
1051:
1056:
1017:
https://www.smh.com.au/world/hardcore-huntress-melissa-bachman-smiles-in-photo-of-the-lion-she-shot-dead-20131116-2xng2.html
976:
832:
704:
936:
170:
408:
388:
861:
471:
450:
27:
1042:
https://nationalpost.com/news/television-host-melissa-bachmans-boast-about-lion-kill-on-twitter-sparks-outrage
1046:
987:
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/catesevilla/tv-presenter-melissa-bachman-angers-entire-internet-after-sh
127:
562:
400:
382:
1022:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/2013-11-16-melissa-bachman-lion-hunting-photo-holiday-south-africa-outrage.html
1027:
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1362232/melissa-bachmans-killing-lion-prompts-tide-anger-tv-host
548:
the acronym "NAMC" will be unfamiliar to the vast majority of users. I’m guessing that it refers to the
176:
64:
1002:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/what-was-she-thinking-tv-host-posts-photo-of-lion-kill-on-safari-1.1547598
662:- the last specifically describes her as "Celebrity hunter". Second, putting this in the lead gives it
1082:
137:. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
1012:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/23/melissa-bachman-lion-hunting-internet-backlash
158:
20:
487:
on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
416:
on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
330:
on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
652:
593:
141:.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see
84:
worked four months for free, drove 150 miles (240 km) daily, and supported herself as a waitress?
972:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/public-roar-of-outrage-over-tv-presenters-lion-kill-9jqn96wgslv
48:
1068:
1007:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/15/hunter-melissa-bachman-picture-lion-south-africa
992:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/hunting-star-stirs-outrage-posting-photo-dead-lion/story?id=20911636
558:
1037:
https://www.timeslive.co.za/sunday-times/lifestyle/2013-11-17-us-killer-queen-in-cross-hairs/
1090:
957:
762:
744:
695:
577:
314:
223:
1052:
https://mg.co.za/article/2013-11-18-us-hunter-criticised-over-picture-with-dead-lion-in-sa/
637:
Also in the lead, Tadeusz inserted " She became known in 2013 when a picture she posted on
1057:
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/melissa-bachman-thousands-sign-petition-2801445
663:
134:
80:
977:
https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/melissa-bachman-hunter-lion-kill-south-africa-petition/
866:
810:
625:
617:
1105:
1078:
716:
601:
949:
1064:
931:
921:
894:
728:
69:
1086:
953:
837:
758:
740:
679:
629:
573:
298:
277:
207:
189:
304:
213:
483:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles about women in
327:
59:
1047:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/melissa-bachman-big-game-protest-161458798.html
484:
1094:
1072:
961:
766:
748:
581:
566:
326:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to
787:"Melissa Bachman blasted over smiling photo with lion she 'stalked and"
707:
and those sources write those are just a random sampling. A writer for
638:
890:"Lion hunter Melissa Bachman isn't the problem. South African law is"
243:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
678:- one doesn't even mention the incident, one only briefly. Again,
413:
152:
133:
from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
110:
43:
15:
686:
ref was already in the article, we shouldn't duplicate refs.
98:
927:
597:
833:"Is Melissa Bachman A Fugly Bitch For Killing A Lion?"
91:. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at
412:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
757:Going ahead due to lack of response for 6 days. --
724:Finally, a change to the article body. Putting a
93:Template:Did you know nominations/Melissa Bachman
552:which should be spelled out to avoid confusion.
806:"Analysis: Melissa Bachman and online misogyny"
78:... that to get her first job in television,
8:
719:exception to edit warring. This is horrible.
445:
377:
272:
184:
1162:Low-importance Women in Business articles
72:). The text of the entry was as follows:
713:"horrific sexist and misogynist remarks"
777:
497:Knowledge:WikiProject Women in Business
447:
379:
274:
186:
156:
89:Knowledge:Recent additions/2016/January
1167:WikiProject Women in Business articles
500:Template:WikiProject Women in Business
600:that I'm afraid I disagree with. Per
87:A record of the entry may be seen at
7:
804:Davis, Rebecca (November 18, 2013).
477:This article is within the scope of
406:This article is within the scope of
320:This article is within the scope of
229:This article is within the scope of
1147:All WikiProject Women-related pages
1117:Biography articles of living people
888:Moosa, Tauriq (November 23, 2013).
175:It is of interest to the following
1157:B-Class Women in Business articles
1142:B-Class WikiProject Women articles
785:Tomas Jivanda (16 November 2013).
14:
1137:Low-importance Minnesota articles
860:Vegter, Ivo (November 19, 2013).
598:a series of edits over 15 minutes
99:
30:on 5 January 2016. The result of
701:multiple wishes for her death...
470:
449:
399:
381:
307:
297:
276:
216:
206:
188:
157:
116:This article must adhere to the
47:
19:
1112:Knowledge Did you know articles
694:That's specific insertion of a
612:... is an American hunter" to "
550:North American Membership Group
517:This article has been rated as
360:This article has been rated as
340:Knowledge:WikiProject Minnesota
253:Knowledge:WikiProject Biography
26:This article was nominated for
1127:WikiProject Biography articles
608:In the lead, Tadeusz changed "
343:Template:WikiProject Minnesota
256:Template:WikiProject Biography
1:
862:"In defence of a lion killer"
767:15:50, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
647:Rochester Post-Bulletin, 2012
491:and see a list of open tasks.
480:WikiProject Women in Business
420:and see a list of open tasks.
334:and see a list of open tasks.
119:biographies of living persons
937:Knowledge:Requested articles
749:15:34, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
582:22:20, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
567:12:32, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
241:contribute to the discussion
426:Knowledge:WikiProject Women
131:must be removed immediately
68:column on 25 January 2016 (
1183:
1152:WikiProject Women articles
1132:B-Class Minnesota articles
1122:B-Class biography articles
915:Autobiography and CoI tags
705:gang rape and beheading...
523:project's importance scale
503:Women in Business articles
432:WikiProject Women articles
429:Template:WikiProject Women
366:project's importance scale
1095:13:35, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
1073:00:57, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
962:05:04, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
516:
465:
394:
359:
292:
201:
183:
659:Quincy Herald-Whig, 2013
58:appeared on Knowledge's
699:they are being quoted:
165:This article is rated
104:
669:St. Cloud Times, 2014
544:On the first line of
323:WikiProject Minnesota
232:WikiProject Biography
102:
1083:Knowledge:Notability
680:we go by the sources
653:Bow Adventures, 2012
630:We go by the sources
841:. November 27, 2013
711:describes these as
675:Chaska Herald, 2015
616:... is an American
594:User:Tadeusz Nowak
346:Minnesota articles
259:biography articles
171:content assessment
105:
537:
536:
533:
532:
529:
528:
494:Women in Business
457:Women in Business
444:
443:
440:
439:
409:WikiProject Women
376:
375:
372:
371:
271:
270:
267:
266:
151:
150:
109:
108:
42:
41:
1174:
925:
907:
906:
904:
902:
885:
879:
878:
876:
874:
857:
851:
850:
848:
846:
829:
823:
822:
820:
818:
801:
795:
794:
782:
733:
727:
626:we don't do that
588:February 3 edits
572:Thanks, done. --
557:
505:
504:
501:
498:
495:
474:
467:
466:
461:
453:
446:
434:
433:
430:
427:
424:
403:
396:
395:
385:
378:
348:
347:
344:
341:
338:
317:
315:Minnesota portal
312:
311:
310:
301:
294:
293:
288:
280:
273:
261:
260:
257:
254:
251:
237:join the project
226:
224:Biography portal
221:
220:
219:
210:
203:
202:
192:
185:
168:
162:
161:
153:
139:this noticeboard
111:
101:
51:
44:
23:
16:
1182:
1181:
1177:
1176:
1175:
1173:
1172:
1171:
1102:
1101:
919:
917:
912:
911:
910:
900:
898:
887:
886:
882:
872:
870:
859:
858:
854:
844:
842:
831:
830:
826:
816:
814:
803:
802:
798:
791:The Independent
784:
783:
779:
731:
725:
614:Melissa Bachman
610:Melissa Bachman
592:On February 3,
590:
553:
542:
502:
499:
496:
493:
492:
459:
431:
428:
425:
422:
421:
345:
342:
339:
336:
335:
313:
308:
306:
286:
258:
255:
252:
249:
248:
222:
217:
215:
169:on Knowledge's
166:
81:Melissa Bachman
56:Melissa Bachman
12:
11:
5:
1180:
1178:
1170:
1169:
1164:
1159:
1154:
1149:
1144:
1139:
1134:
1129:
1124:
1119:
1114:
1104:
1103:
1100:
1099:
1098:
1097:
1061:
1060:
1059:
1054:
1049:
1044:
1039:
1034:
1029:
1024:
1019:
1014:
1009:
1004:
999:
994:
989:
984:
979:
974:
916:
913:
909:
908:
880:
867:Daily Maverick
852:
824:
811:Daily Maverick
796:
776:
775:
771:
770:
769:
754:
753:
752:
751:
722:
721:
720:
689:
688:
687:
635:
634:
633:
589:
586:
585:
584:
541:
538:
535:
534:
531:
530:
527:
526:
519:Low-importance
515:
509:
508:
506:
489:the discussion
475:
463:
462:
460:Low‑importance
454:
442:
441:
438:
437:
435:
418:the discussion
404:
392:
391:
386:
374:
373:
370:
369:
362:Low-importance
358:
352:
351:
349:
332:the discussion
319:
318:
302:
290:
289:
287:Low‑importance
281:
269:
268:
265:
264:
262:
228:
227:
211:
199:
198:
193:
181:
180:
174:
163:
149:
148:
144:this help page
128:poorly sourced
114:
107:
106:
96:
86:
85:
52:
40:
39:
32:the discussion
24:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1179:
1168:
1165:
1163:
1160:
1158:
1155:
1153:
1150:
1148:
1145:
1143:
1140:
1138:
1135:
1133:
1130:
1128:
1125:
1123:
1120:
1118:
1115:
1113:
1110:
1109:
1107:
1096:
1092:
1088:
1084:
1080:
1076:
1075:
1074:
1070:
1066:
1062:
1058:
1055:
1053:
1050:
1048:
1045:
1043:
1040:
1038:
1035:
1033:
1030:
1028:
1025:
1023:
1020:
1018:
1015:
1013:
1010:
1008:
1005:
1003:
1000:
998:
995:
993:
990:
988:
985:
983:
980:
978:
975:
973:
970:
969:
966:
965:
964:
963:
959:
955:
951:
945:
942:
938:
933:
929:
923:
914:
897:
896:
891:
884:
881:
869:
868:
863:
856:
853:
840:
839:
834:
828:
825:
813:
812:
807:
800:
797:
792:
788:
781:
778:
774:
768:
764:
760:
756:
755:
750:
746:
742:
737:
736:
730:
723:
718:
714:
710:
706:
702:
697:
693:
692:
690:
685:
681:
677:
676:
671:
670:
665:
661:
660:
655:
654:
649:
648:
643:
642:
640:
636:
631:
627:
622:
621:
619:
618:trophy hunter
615:
611:
607:
606:
605:
603:
599:
595:
587:
583:
579:
575:
571:
570:
569:
568:
564:
560:
556:
551:
547:
539:
524:
520:
514:
511:
510:
507:
490:
486:
482:
481:
476:
473:
469:
468:
464:
458:
455:
452:
448:
436:
419:
415:
411:
410:
405:
402:
398:
397:
393:
390:
387:
384:
380:
367:
363:
357:
354:
353:
350:
333:
329:
325:
324:
316:
305:
303:
300:
296:
295:
291:
285:
282:
279:
275:
263:
246:
245:documentation
242:
238:
234:
233:
225:
214:
212:
209:
205:
204:
200:
197:
194:
191:
187:
182:
178:
172:
164:
160:
155:
154:
146:
145:
140:
136:
132:
129:
125:
121:
120:
115:
113:
112:
97:
94:
90:
83:
82:
77:
74:
73:
71:
67:
66:
61:
57:
53:
50:
46:
45:
37:
33:
29:
25:
22:
18:
17:
946:
940:
932:User:Tataral
918:
899:. Retrieved
895:The Guardian
893:
883:
873:December 29,
871:. Retrieved
865:
855:
843:. Retrieved
836:
827:
817:December 29,
815:. Retrieved
809:
799:
790:
780:
772:
709:The Guardian
708:
683:
673:
667:
664:undue weight
657:
651:
645:
613:
609:
591:
559:Dick Kimball
554:
545:
543:
518:
478:
407:
361:
321:
230:
177:WikiProjects
142:
130:
123:
117:
79:
76:Did you know
75:
65:Did you know
63:
55:
54:A fact from
35:
838:The Vagenda
684:Independent
70:check views
36:Speedy keep
1106:Categories
950:I see that
901:January 4,
845:January 4,
773:References
928:this edit
696:WP:WEASEL
337:Minnesota
328:Minnesota
284:Minnesota
250:Biography
196:Biography
135:libellous
103:Knowledge
60:Main Page
485:business
28:deletion
1077:It's a
1065:Tataral
922:Tataral
639:Twitter
521:on the
364:on the
167:B-class
62:in the
1087:GRuban
1079:WP:BLP
954:GRuban
759:GRuban
741:GRuban
717:WP:BLP
602:WP:BRD
574:GRuban
546:Career
173:scale.
941:after
596:made
423:Women
414:women
389:Women
1091:talk
1069:talk
958:talk
903:2016
875:2015
847:2016
819:2015
763:talk
745:talk
578:talk
563:talk
540:NAMG
239:and
34:was
926:In
729:who
620:".
513:Low
356:Low
124:BLP
1108::
1093:)
1071:)
1063:--
960:)
930:,
892:.
864:.
835:.
808:.
789:.
765:)
747:)
732:}}
726:{{
703:;
672:;
656:;
650:;
580:)
565:)
1089:(
1067:(
956:(
924::
920:@
905:.
877:.
849:.
821:.
793:.
761:(
743:(
632:.
576:(
561:(
555:☺
525:.
368:.
247:.
179::
147:.
122:(
95:.
38:.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
