Talk:Midfielder - Knowledge

254:"Complete midfielder" is a British manufacture and fetish. The best midfielders, Zidane, Platini, Figo etc are never "complete", nor do they need to be. You don't need headless chickens running all over the field doing everything, you need discipline and enterprise in their respective positions. Put in 10 Steven Gerrards, 10 Frank Lampard and England won't ever win anything. There's no such thing as a "complete midfielder", though there's such a thing called a more "all-rounded player in their position". However, it's arguable whether a more "complete" player is more devastating than a specialized midfielder playing at his height. In the EPL for instance, Gerrard and Lampard will never reach the guile or incisive passing of, say, Robert Pires. I've never seen Gerrard, Lampard dribble past anyone. Bryan Robson does everything else, but is hardly creative. Is he complete? Michael Ballack can drive with the ball, but he too is a runner rather than a passer. Only the British will be greedy and want their players to do everything. If so, you need only one player on field, not ten. 2716:

successful as they are, because they can mix it up and change things when needed so are less likely to fail. Milan can change to a far more narrow formation with attacking fullbacks/wingbacks in a blink of an eye, to a more 4 3 1 2 or 4 3 2 1 and another one or two, from a 4 4 2, 4 5 1, 4 4 1 1 or even 4 1 4 1. They even go to a more 4 1 2 1 2 with their current squad sometimes and can do these with just their first team. You just need to consider opposition, oppositions tactics, who's playing against you and what they can do and your players can do before making decisions or changing things in-game even. Milan certainly have the players though as we have seen all the above take place or it's fact, and so the DM part needs a little added really to say they can play in other positions. Any ideas everyone or do you even agree? lol. Bob --

2708:

is far more associated with it, hence the name. Managers often place them wherever the oppositions main attacking threat is though if the defender/s can't/don't cover him (excluding CF, some wingers, and some forwards) to lessen the impact they can have. Gattuso often plays on the right of midfield but probably only ever gets slightly higher up the pitch than when he's in the hole between defense and midfield. He just holds his position and gathers any scraps that need gathering and the team attacks through the middle with Kaka or to the left or slightly to the left with Seedorf, with Pirlo usually finding them or the strikers when possible with his great passing ability. With some teams you only need to stop one player and you've almost stopped the whole team, so they are very handy players to have.

1206:

site. It could also help with identifying certain abilities players need for certain positions as well though, as they moved about a lot less years ago. I have to apologise also as i have already put Franz Beckenbauer in the sweeper part, as he was the best and more or less made the role, so he has to be there really. Sorry if it's a problem though. This could help though in my opinion, even if only a little, but some true legends should be there, especially with some who are there currently. Because like Franz does, they can define some roles better than current players can. --

2712:

DM's play in other positions sometimes, the same with CM's and AM's, Seedorf is a great attacking player from the left or centre and used to play on the right too and is often a little deeper, rather than getting right up, Cafu and others are some (or have been some) of the best fullbacks/wingbacks of recent times, Pirlo is one of the best deep lying play makers currently and that's before we even mention some strikers they have or have had, and their main defenders which is usually theirs and most other Italian teams best position/players!

1843:

of their work far from the byline, like Beckham always has. Most are better passers than wingers too, so it's probably best to have them a bit deeper to get the most from that, because as we know, the more long balls you make/attempt the more you lose the ball(unless your Beckham with that right foot of his) but that's the main difference between them. Depending on tactics, formations etc, some also start out more deeper and become more of a winger when their team has possession. Bob. --

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heading/height with a long ball. A real winger is fast, can dribble, cross but not a must and/or finishing/shooting and obviously passing is always good for anyone. A right/left midfielder either lacks the pace or skill (sometimes both, Beckham) to be a true winger, so they are right/left midfielders. It is what the player has in his locker basically, but the manager does what he feels is best. --

272:

like this, but again, so what? That doesn't mean the notion of a complete midfielder is a pie in the sky BS ideal. Some strikers are considered "complete strikers" because they hold all the skills strikers need. You's say that Thierry Henry was a more complete striker than Ruud Van Nistelrooy, say. And what's wrong with players have complete skills in each position? Have you heard of "

22: 74: 53: 2798:

evolved from playing behind the defence to in fornt of it. There is a clear bias towards British based players or ex British based players, although I notice that has been rectified a little. There are not enough mentions or examples of historical players, I cannot believe Michel Platini is not mentioned as possibly the greatest exponent of attacking midfield play.

84: 162: 4541: 2011:

can also be quick and skillful but they will also have other qualities, like defensive play, passing, work rate and team work, etc. Which is another reason they are so different, because wingers like to do it all themselves. They are 10 to 15 yards further up the pitch too most times and don't like getting back, some even moan when asked/told lol.

612:

way one could make it verifiable would be to say that "So-and-so believes this person is incorrectly termed a defensive midfielder," followed by a citation to an article or something of that nature. Personally, I think the section should probably go completely (unless someone is willing to do the research and rewrite). --

2864:

Deco is listed as a deep lying play maker in this article and a BBC article is quoted as a source, while the article does say he is a playmaker it makes no mention of him playing in a withdrawn role, I'm removing him from the list. Futhermore a section for advanced playmakers should be made, although

2739:

there is no real distinction of players who play on one side. I find that most wingers tend to switch sides: having the strong-side on the outside are for roles that include crossing and passing into the center; weak-side are mainly roles that include diagonal runs into the center and having shots on

2707:

Defensive midfielders can play anywhere in midfield, even in an advanced position. Like we see with Gattuso quite often, the role is exactly the same no matter where it is played really, the main position though obviously protects the centrebacks more and is also deeper than the other midfielders, so

1842:

CorleoneSerpicoMontata hit the nail on the head almost, as the main difference between them really is that wingers hit the byline and right or left midfielders don't. Wingers were far more attacking and "wingers" like Ronaldo still are. Right and left midfielders usually play a lot deeper and do most

2797:

This is one of the worst articles I've ever read. The opening paragraphs seem to have been written by a child, there is no history explaining how any of these positions evolved, for example; wing halfs in the british game being the early basis of defensive midfielders. In the Italian game the libero

2617:

I can see your point. It's just that I've had the page on my watch list for several months now, and about 10 times a day, it seems, some fan of one team or another deletes their rival's players and substitutes his own. I think the sourced ones should stay, only. But that's just my opinion. Best,

2242:

I'm afraid everyone else seems to think there is a difference. I'll give you an anology; national tabloid and broadsheet newspapers both deliver information about the current affairs of the world, both written for the masses, on similar rolls of paper, and would be categorised as newspapers, however

3431:

consensus changes as new editors come. there is no such thing as a wide midfielder, no definition exists. the only thing close would be an outside midfielder but nobody uses that. the term winger comes from the position, ie out on the wing. ergo winger is "wide midfielder". as i say, your links say

2891:

The (association football) should be added as the first line contains a disambiguator for Australian rules football. I think this page should not redirect here as this is not an encyclopedia centered around football per say. The page should reflect that more than one type of sport uses a midfielder

2774:

even in total football of Michels there where specific typical positions, in fact he played with Ajax with real classical wingers in Zwart (RW) and Keizer (LW), main treats of total football was that players covered positions if others moved into an other and that strikers had tasks in defending as

2711:

Milan are great to recognise several roles/player abilities and what they are used for or what the players are supposed to be good at for that position. Kaka is in one hole and is one of the best at it, if not the best, Gattuso or Ambrosini can go in the other and are top players and they also show

2069:

and the article demonstrates this, however any wide midfielder is a winger by its definition. take for example how scott murray , matthew etherington or even peter hamosi are described in football articles. my point is that all are ver different from the likes of ronaldo or messi, yet all share the

1076:

Don't get me wrong, some examples would be nice, but take a look at the history of the page. Pretty much the only edits are people adding players of the teams they support and removing rivals' players. It's getting pretty redundant. I thought maybe only using retired players might work, but then

1032:

I think with what is happening to the article (rampant changes to reflect an editor's own leanings, revert wars, slurs, etc.) we should seriously consider not adding any examples at all. I don't even know how much they really add to the article, and they just set the fire off for uncivil arguments

4212:

I believe having a modest number of example players at each position increases the usefulness of this article to a lot of readers. However, we need to have some rational way of deciding who deserves to be included. My suggestion would be for editors to add a comment after each player's name with a

3943:

Could we not introduce left and right wingers as seperate positions? I do know wingers can be played on different positions and some can not be deemed typical left or right wingers but there are plenty of great and clear left or right wingers in football(history). The style of the player makes the

3852:

The Mirror was just one example, of many hundred. Naming a wide midfielder is "demanding a burden of proof that's impossible to satisfy"? In that case the section should be removed as it would fail wikis policy on OR and Realiable. Surely, you can see that examples of all other sub-sections can be

3720:

Not sure about the other guy, but my contention with the references is their poor, poor quality. Knowledge is after all an encyclopedia, and therefore good quality, realiable sources should be used. Hence the sloppy soccer-training-guide.com ref should go, as should the expertfootball.com ref. Who

2715:

It's a great squad to study players, positions and tactics etc, as the manager only needs to move a couple of players and he has a whole new system/formation. Just like Man Utd can with the high wingers and then changing to a more 4 4 2, or the other way round, and it's the main reason they are as

2025:

Just incase people haven't realised, i'm the same person talking about Beckham further up. Don't want anyone thinking i'm doing anything daft like agreeing with myself lol. Also, true wingers lose the ball too much to be RM/LM, thats another way to look at them, as they are too risky to have there

2010:

We all know who the wingers are really, just look who scores more etc. That's why Ronaldo is compared so much with George Best, the best winger ever. Wingers are more like forwards than RL/LM. Right and left midfielders are better all round players usually, or at least better team players, as they

1205:

What does everybody think about putting legends up there alongside current players, for all positions though, like players regarded as inventing/defining certain positions or being regarded as the best ever? It should have players from different era's anyway really, as people of all ages visit the

611:

I added a POV tag to the section entitleed "Players inaccurately termed defensive midfielders" because it presents as fact that certain players are not defensive midfielders, when (although this may be true) such a statement is completely unverifiable and based on subjective observation. The only

4418:

articles with the bulk of the text being in Midfielder. Regrdless of the debate on whether a winger is a forward or midfield position (short answer in my opinion: both/either), there appears to be no need for a fairly short artilce on a specific type of winger when this can easily be incorporated

2951:

99% of people searching for midfielder will be after the assoc. football version. 99% of people who talk about assoc. football call it.... football. There's already a link to the Aussie rules version at the top of the page. Moving this to (assoc football) will just create a redirect which will

271:

It may be chiefly a British term, but so what? The concept per se is not invalid. A complete midfielder simply means a player who possesses ALL traits needed by midfielders, including good tackling and passing skills, defensive play, etc. Granted there are few players in modern world football

2823:

I agree this is a mess, the terminology is a mess as well, it would be better to make a list of all used terms for roles and for characterise players. For example Rijkaard was an allround player, who played in his career; controlling midfielder, attacking midfielder, defensive midfielder, center

2226:

well lets stick to wiki policy. if reliable, verifiable sources can be found that explicitly differentiate between a wide midfielder and a winger than it can remain as is. other wise the fact that most wide midfielders are described as a wingers, the article should revert back to saying as much,

724:

I dont think that this is a very good example of a deep lying playmaker being supported by a holding midfielder since scholes is if anything an out and out attacking midfilder (he is after all included in the attacking midfielder paragraph). He is well known for his inability to tackle properly.

3828:

Name them? No, that falls under "demanding a burden of proof that's impossible to satisfy". David Beckham is a fine example. Yes, the Mirror and others might call him a winger - but they're wrong to do so in my opinion. And I'm sure many other sources describe him as a right-midfielder instead.

3661:

Come on, you're going round in circles here - first you said the sources say there's no difference, then you say there aren't any sources, then you say the sources do say there's a difference but they're not good enough, now you're back to saying there are no sources and that the (non-existent)

1874:

But we also have to remember that it doesn't really matter what abilities they have these days, it's more how the manager wants to utilise what he has available to him to who plays there. Bolton with big Sam even played Kevin Davies there sometimes, but that was more to cause problems with his

2601:

I do think that a few examples add to the article and help to illustrate the point. That they may cause edit wars isn't really a good enough reason to remove them. Some of them were sourced and the others hopefully can be. I'm currently trying to improve the references throughout the article.

844:

The translation for the Brazilian Portuguese/Spanish term "volante" is mistaken. "Rudder" in Brazilian Portuguese means "leme" whereas "volante" would be "steering wheel"; but neither has anything to do with the original intended etimology. "Volante" as in defensive midfielder means "flying",

2136:

If you take the narrow position descriptions of goalkeepers, defenders, midfielders and strikers then wingers would fit into that definition as a midfielder, but only because it is a limited group of four categories of players. Here we can be more descriptive; forwards, wing-backs, defensive

559:

It is not the case that Centre or Wingman are used instead of midfielder in Australian rules football. It is much more likely that these players would be referred to as "midfielders" as, due to the evolution of the Australian game, these players are now required to roam much further from the

3882:...and you've changed it again. In which case you need to update the 4 graphics on the page, as these show LM/LW and RM/RW as different positions, with LM and RM on the halfway line and LW and RW in a more attacking position, almost in line with the attackers - now without any explanation. 2740:

goal. These roles alternate throughout the game, depending on the situation of play. However, these players do not like playing central as compared to playing on either widths. Also many wingers are ambidextrous, ruling out the need to state that they are either orthodox or unorthodox. (

322:

Billy Bremner was the epitome of a "complete midfielder" with Gerrard and Lampard paling in comparison to his drive and dominance on the football field. There are a few examples of "complete midfielders" but only among the footballing greats which Gerrard and Lampard certainly are not.

1760:

I'm afraid that source doesn't support either position, TBH it is worse than a throwaway comment; "Wingers, wide midfielders, call them what you like" doesn't really qualify a source for the changes. I am open to persuasion as a winger could be converted to a more laid back role and a

1181:

and edit wars, and doesn't really help, I don't think. I wouldn't be surprised if my edit is reverted though, and the edit wars wage on. Everyone just wants their own examples, and thinks their particular player is a notable example. I don't think there's anyway to reconcile this.

2656:

Not saying that it's right, it's just not surprising given that this is the English wikipedia. I'd love to see a nice, cohesive, referenced list that has a general consensus. I just think that it'd be very difficult to achieve, and would still be subject to rampant IP tweaking.

1679:

I'm afraid I can see no references attached to that section, and as such it should remain as the version prior to the edit war, I can also see no discussion on the matter, ergo no consensus on a position you claim, thus returning to the previous version is the only logical step.

4471:

Please stop removing the sourced information and images of female footballers; there are reliable sources, the photo includes a player who plays in this respective position, and if anything we need more female representation in association football pages on Knowledge. Thank

1293:

Probably deserves a separate section from Central midfielders, also "Due to their weaknesses in their defensive aspects, some have to be supported by holding midfielders." is a horrendous Generalisation. Many deep-lying play makers are also fairly good defensively as well.

1926:

it reflects the reality of a vast minority of highly skilled players. most professional footballers who play as a winger would be classed as "right/left midfielders". wiki should not be written to support one pov of less than 0.001% of the football playing population

3724:

The Nationalfootballmuseum source does not ditinguish between a winger & wide midfielder and the BBC link states they are the same thing with a different name. The FIFA article mentions a difference, but doesnt give enough detail to form a whole sub-section

999:

Cristiano Ronaldo, David Beckham, Lionel Messi, Franck Ribery and Ricardo Quaresma. I've included Beckham as he is an example (the most well known and therfore a good refference point) of the different type of winger who's ability wasn't in dribbling but in his

4255:

As this is the English Knowledge, we could also make a case for including some English, US, Australian and New Zealand players, or players from any other countries with large numbers of English speakers. Including women players would also be a good move.

333:

Is Billy Bremner a "footballing great"? If so, then only in a British context. I doubt he ranks amongst the likes of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano, etc. Someone like Alan Shearer is a British footballing great, but I wouldn't really state he was a

3400:

Have a look at the discussion further up the page - consensus was reached that this is NOT the case. Just as the "centre half" from old-style 2-3-5 formations dropped to a deeper role and became "centre backs" in a modern back four, "wingers", who were

898:

Deco is what we brazillians call a "meia-armador", a creative, but very offensive midfielder, just like riquelme, zico and diego(from werder bremem). I dont know if they can be called box-to-box, however, because i dont know how a box-to-box is like...

577:

As things currently stand, this is a predominantly football-based article with a little bit about AFL tacked on the end. It seems a bit silly, so I've been bold and taken out the AFL stuff and added a disambiguation link at the start of the article.

2865:

this is referenced to in the attacking midfield section it seems that any player who has been tagged a playmaker has been put in the deep lying section, I'm leaving Xavi in there for the time being but only because I've seen him play both roles.

3697:

I'm sure I can find more references, but how many do we need? I get the feeling I could put 100 in there and you'd say none of them were good enough; demanding a burden of proof that's impossible to satisfy. Would it just be a waste of time?

3409:- though some teams do play wingers in 4-3-3, 4-5-1, 4-2-4 etc, and there is plenty of crossover / grey area between the terms. If you want to re-open this debate and gain consensus to the opposite of what currently exists, you should do so 3506:

is a winger. Both play(ed) on the right of midfield, but Ronaldo's role is quite different from Beckham's, in that the balance is shifted towards the attacking side in Ronaldo's case, whereas Beckham's role is much more evenly balanced. –

3520:

you have no evidence, just opinion. find things that say so and so is a wide midfielder. you cannot, they do not exist. i can find thousands of articles naming players as wingers, all play similar to beckham. this section is complete OR

3923:

What's the point? You won't accept it anyway. I can't be bothered to edit war. You should get the graphics redone ASAP, really - it's very confusing now there's no explanation as to why they show LM/RM and LW/RW as different positions.

2463:

i disagree. for a start both sources are terrible and probably should never, ever be used on wikipedia. you need to find reputable sources (newspaper articles, material from the fa/uefa/fifa etc to support your artifical terminology.

4448:

merging into the topic of wingers generally. As you correctly state, wingers can and have been classed as midfielders or forwards, so there's perhaps a case for a separate article on wingers generally, but that's another argument...

990:

Juan Román Riquelme, Francesco Totti, Cesc Fabregas, Paul Scholes and Kaká. I'm not sure wether to include Ronaldhinio, as he does tend to play wide left, and since I said I'd only pick 5, I've left him out, but he does deserve a

4008:

2 wingers (outside left and outside right forwards): THEY WERE NEVER CONSIDERED "HALF-BACKS" (midfielders) because the played closer to the other forwards than to the half-backs. They would cross balls. A hard task as balls were

3088:

Hmm, can you compete with 715m viewers for premium competition finale? Not a hope. Midfielder refers to football in most cases, this is irrefutable. So, the move is controversial because (a) it isn't required (b) a number of

679:

Other just as accomplished attacking midfielders include Totti, Nedved, Rui Costa, Kaká. Less accomplished but arguably as talented players of this position include Juninho Pernambucano, Landon Donovan, Pablo Aimar, and Tomáš

3474:

re-introducing the change. I disagree with you on the sources, they do say that there's a difference, but (as the article used to say), there's plenty of crossover in the terminology too. I'm not going to edit war and break

3469:

with your initial edit, but I reverted as per the existing consensus, after which, if you think there's a new consensus or likely to be a new consensus, I really believe you should seek to establish it here on the talk page

2824:

back. Some positions might be out of style but had a function for example Libero the role Beckenbauwer played (if I am not mistaken a playmaker role before his defense) while a sweeper used to play behind his defenders.

4060:

The lone striker was re-located a few meters backwards (TO ALIGN WITH THE WINGERS) and was NOT only given the responsibility of scoring but if, possible, pass it to the inside forwards which were deployed as strikers.

4015:

3 strikers (left-center, center and right-center forwards): THEY HAD ZERO RESPONSIBILITIES CONCERNING PASSING. THEY HAD TO KICK AND SCORE! THEY WOULD NOT EVEN PASS THE BALL AMONG THEM!!! PLAY-MAKING WAS BLASPHEMY FOR

3900:

All of them? I think you named the only example you can think of. If it is such a well known position, and requires a sub-section of its own, than a number of well sourced examples should not be a problem surely?

3944:

difference I feel if a player is a wide midfielder rather than the so called formation, Lennon, Walcot, Giggs, Robben being classical wingers while Beckham seems a classical wide midfielder to me. ArieBombarie

496:(though this is unwritten, I'll cobble together a stub (section of this article?) for it), because despite the similar/same names and similar types of tasks, the actual jobs done are pretty different. Then, at 3686:

says "winger, wide midfielder, call them what you like" (yes there's some crossover and grey area, but this supports that the term "wide midfielder" does exist - and the graphic says LM & RM, not winger)

3301:

I'm wrong? Can you substantiate that please? The project thought you were wrong, I thought you were wrong, your proposed moves have all been rejected, your "bold" moves have all been reverted. Get it?

1549:

The article should remain as consensus before any more reverts. if anyone would like to put forward a case as to why we would need to duplicate what is already written i am willing to listen.

2775:

well as defenders task in attack (defend as a team, attack as a team), illustrated well by Cruijff 'the first player in an attack is the goaly and the first defender is the central striker'

597:

I linked to Stanley Matthews to exemplify the traditional winger who was part of the forward line, and I added a reference to the formal terminology for the position (Outside Right/Left). --

4493:

concerns. A single IP address has removed references to Rapinoe four times in the past month with no justification. Unless there is a clear reason to do so, this is disruptive editing.

2283:

You realise you are saying the Earth is flat and asking everyone else to verify that it is round. What you could do is add the citations in and improve the references of this article.

4560: 3050:

All I am also referring to the other sports which use the terminology and I am also attempting to match up the article titles, can you also explain how this is a controversial move?--

1900:

It does reflect today's reality, it also discusses the past as well as the present, and puts the present into context. Have a look at sources #3 & #22, also have a look at the

2907:

No, not required. This is the common usage so doesn't need disambiguation. As you well know, if you make unilateral decisions like this, you should, at the very least, inform

1953:

0.001% eh? Where do you get that figure from? And how come we have a graphic that shows LW/RW and LM/RM as different positions? Surely then that needs to go too, by your logic?

2309:

sources can be found for the earth being spherical, stop using strawman arguments. note: i am not asking for any content to be removed, just changing the name of the section.

1465:

I'm afraid I and other previous editors see a difference between the likes of Tony Daley, Stuart Ripley and Stuart Downing against the likes David Beckham, David Bentley, etc.

4252:

We should not shy away from including players whose fame exceeds their quality. The more recognizable these example players are then the more useful this article will be.

2261:

you need to find sources that state that their is a difference between the two though, otherwise it would be original research. thats wiki policy regardless of consensus.

725:

Though the united team is doing well at the moment, this central midfield is not ideally balanced as both are playmakers, one deep lying, the other central or advanced.

3958:

The "wingless wonders" is repeated twice in the Winger-subsection. I guess they should be merged by someone who is more competent in writing English than yours truly.

3574:

source 3: "The Winger is a position that mean almost same thing as the mentioned right or left midfielder." and is terrible source that should be no place near wiki

3008:

Are you kidding? Are you seriously suggested that Aussie Rules is as prevalent as football? Over 700 million people watched the last World Cup Final (according to

534:

have no mention of the term 'midfielder'. There are midfield positions, but they are called 'centre' instead of 'midfielder'. As for the Australian rules football,

3868:

I named "a" wide midfielder, I was asked to name "them". All of them? I've got no intention of having to compile a list until such time as you deem it long enough.

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In short, there is little or no history involved in this article. I suggest someone who has studied the history of the world game re-writes this entire article.

221:"slow down a game to wear down the clock in a winning position" - alleges that all midfielders slow down games in a winning position, instead of going for goals. 3093:

contributors disagree with your move (and methods) and (c) you didn't discuss it with anyone. Enough now. Move onto expanding the Knowledge and being useful.

2243:

you would never describe the Observer as a tabloid, nor the Mirror as a broadsheet. Verifiability would need to be found to prove that there had been the shift.

1102:

personally one or two current players and one or two retired players are all that are needed, the lack of world class players from the past is a complete joke.

3283:

Fine you can keep your views but you are wrong in this case just move on and let it go. I havn't "always been wrong" as you insist. Just shut up and move on.--

4423:

PS the overall 'what is a winger' debate is not helped by this article, which desribes the Inverted Winger position as that of a midfielder and states that

3729: 3628:

I'll stick with my opinion from earlier on in the year; realiable sources must be found to support the distinction between a winger and a wide midfielder.

1251:

He's a great attacking midfielder, probably one of the best, but he isn't a box to box midfielder and his defencive work is done by Gilberto and Flamini.

2842:

The entire article reads like a how-to for a football manager computer game, not an explanation of how the positions evolved and function in real sport.

3721:

created these pages? Why are they an authorative source for Association Football? These are the questions that should be asked when using them on wiki.

3432:

the same thing, that wide midfielder=winger. this is what wiki should say, anything else is OR. i believe you need to look at wiki policy OWN as well

4598: 1567:

I am in agreement over that. Taking a brief look through I can't find the reproduction, could you point me in the direction of the repeated material.

846: 140: 130: 218:"midfielders are sometimes refered to as 'midfield generals' for their ability to dictate a game." - alleges that all midfielders can dictate games. 2041:

I think the most salient point being made here is that there is a clear difference between wingers and wide midfielder positions (left and right).

1273:

hes not a box to box mdfielder, hes not even an attacking midfielder either to be honest. ive placed him in the central midfield section for now.

500:, we have a general description of what a midfielder does in sports, and a link to the associated subpage with a short blurb. Providing noone has 230:"just an example of the free kick ability of a good midfielder." - alleges that only midfielders, and not strikers or defenders, take free kicks. 4051:

1 striker (center forward): Yeah, center forwards, AT THIS TIME, did not have to pass the ball or, even worse, "create" opportunities to score!!!

4603: 4175:

Wingers = midfielders ??? This is crazy. For example C. Ronaldo is winger, which is also forward. Wingers are part of forward, not midfield. --

845:"floating", as the classic "volante", evolved directly from the former 4-2-4 center-half, is supposed to "float" between defense and attack - 2741: 1425:

In relation to using it as an umbrella term I have always heard coaches, commentators, journalists and players differentiate between the two.

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As I have said before, any article about any wide player in the game at the moment would describe them as a winger. Be it Ronaldo, Beckham (

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Firstly, its uncited, secondly three of the examples play in England, where every champion of the 1990s bar Leeds used at least one winger (

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I'm sorry I don't see that in the body of text. Once again if we keep if before the controversial edit and then move forwards from there.

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David Bentley may be good example of a wide-midfielder, looks like the other areas have a few examples, however that one just has Beckham.

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Removed Andrea Pirlo from the list of defensive midfielders, since he is simply not a defensive midfielder even though he does play deep.

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2 inside forwards (inside left and inside right forwards): THEY WERE THE "PASSERS". They would carry the ball and pass it to a striker.

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and match up with goalkeeper and defender. I would also like to float the question as to why this is considered a controversial move?--

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the source is no.4 - the new version is the one which is controversial so should go until anybody provides a rationale for its change.

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I'm trying to arrange 'famous midfielders' in alphabetical order, but have only moved about 1/3 of them. I'll try to do the rest later.

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source 1: "The definition of a winger is not quite universal and it is not uncommon to refer to an outside midfielder as a winger."

1534:

Reverted back to the version before any controversy. Please talk through any problems before engaging in an edit war over content.

224:"Midfielders require a vision" - alleges that all midfielders possess vision (which is pretty useless for a defensive midfielder) 4110: 2808: 2686: 2378: 2288: 2248: 2142: 1992: 1766: 1685: 1620: 1572: 1539: 3677: 2511: 1589:

the fact that a "winger" is an umbrella term for any wide midfielder, and that the article already states how hey have evolved.

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again if you dislike a particular team, you'll probably choose to substitute your own team's legend. It's a tricky situation.

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having first-team status at one of the world's most popular clubs (Man Utd, Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Juventus etc)

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always be used in preference to someone typing in "midfielder (association football)". Common usage. No move required.

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http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/2008/10/24/la-galaxy-boss-to-block-david-beckham-s-ac-milan-move-115875-20834049/

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article in which wingers are classed as forwards. There is crossover in the terminology, but there is also a difference.

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I think examples are a way to describe the attributes and characteristics to the positions we are looking to describe.

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rv to show the difference between hugging the touchline wingers and a wide midfielder, two different types of players.

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There is a quite distinct difference between a wide midfielder and a winger. A quite obvious example would be that

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http://ultimosegundo.ig.com.br/esportes/opiniao/alberto_helena_jr/2007/01/04/bola_virtual_adeus_mineiro_278032.html

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as it clearly a consensus here that there is indeed a difference between a winger and a right or left midfielder.

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Agreed. The sections are appropriately named, a consensus being reached and the matter can be considered closed.

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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Inverted winger is a specilaised term within the context of Winger, which is actually described in both the

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Shouldn't centre midfielder be renamed to central midfielder? It seems to be by far the most common name (

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Removing them all seems a bit drastic and probably shouldn't be done without some sort of consensus here.

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I understand. Sources that say what you want = good. Sources that don't say what you want = bad. Got it.

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I think the whole "Players inaccurately termed defensive midfielders"- section shouldn't be in the page.

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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in old-style 2-3-5 formations, have dropped to a deeper role in modern 4-4-2 formations and become wide

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As before, there is an overriding consensus here. Thankfully this one can certainly be put to bed now.

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is one of its best proponents - however a check of the player's article has him listed as a forward!

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OK, I can't believe you'd question the validity of the sources and then quote the Daily Mirror! ;-)

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Andrea Pirlo, Xabi Alonso, Xavi, Michael Carrick and Fernando Gago(couldn't think of anyone better).

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also suggest that 'centre' and 'wingmen' are used instead of 'midfielder'. Maybe we can just have a

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This article needs to mention something about the classic centre-half (or center half) position. --

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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No, it has sources, and I've re-checked the sources, and they clearly say there is a difference.

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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Is the one that says a winger is almost the same as a left/right midfielder, but more attacking.

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why you say that? you have no sources, none say there is a difference. the article needs change

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is (or was - I don't know what exact position he plays for LA Galaxy) a wide midfielder, while

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Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |

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http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/archive/tournament=107/edition=248388/news/newsid=103183.html

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Should Luka Modric really be listed as one of the best attacking midfielders in the world?

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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 13 § Midfielder(association football)

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Feel free to Rip, Chop, Change and slate my list, or even just disregard it altogether.

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Claude Makelele, Gennaro Gattuso, Owen Hargreaves, Javier Mascherano, and Gilberto Silva.

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

1324:

reverted to a more descriptive version that explains wingers against wide midfielders.

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The sources are already in there, #3 & #22. Glad we can put this one to bed now.

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2 wingers (outside left and outside right forwards): The balls were still too heavy.

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Fascinating. So now head to the relevant project and discuss your moves. Chpprs!

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talks about the "wingless wonders" being the basis for the modern 4-4-2 formation,

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issues going on here. The article definitely needs more sources, that's for sure.

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right-midfielder could be turned into a flying winger, just not by that source.

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Agreed, this is a perfectly appropriate form of representation to help counter

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It's a bit anglo-centric too, English Premier League players seem to dominate.

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its sourced, dont change again unless you have a valid rationale and sources.

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Patrick Vieira, Steven Gerrard, Roy Keane, Daniel De Rossi and Michael Essien.

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It's a bit Anglo-centric at the moment - mostly English Premiership players.

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The position of winger was born with the 1-1-8, 1-2-7 and 2-3-5 formations.

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says that the word winger "has now largely been replaced by wide midfielder"

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Sweet, so stop moving these pages without consensus and we'll all be happy.

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This is pretty poor, I'm gonna try and spruce it up with better diagrams. --

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http://www.nationalfootballmuseum.com/pages/fame/Inductees/siralframsey.htm

276:" before? If not, then you need to brush up on your footballing knowledge. 3853:

satisfied and there is no dispute, whereas this one has none so there is?

3465:, thanks, neither one of us owns the article. I appreciate you were being 1177:

I went ahead and scrapped the whole list, as it's nothing but a source of

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most games but they perform worse or are less effective there anyway.--

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where is this discussion? please stop vandalising yet another article.

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the term "winger" is an umbrella term that covers any wide midfielder.

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This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/h/hull_city/7456968.stm

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http://www.teamtalk.com/football/Player_News/0,22133,1817_7729,00.html

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Its not a joke.Donavan is an attacking midfielder,like Tim Cahill.Jean

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Ok there are some different diagrams up to make it look a bit better--

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Who is this "we" you talk of it is just you and me and nobody else.--

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by reverting again, let's see what others have to say, if anything.

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http://www.skysports.com/football/player/0,19754,11685_32483,00.html

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2 half-backs (left wing-half and right wing-half): The play-makers.

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Should we create a list of 5 players for each position and lock it.

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on more than one occasion and in every case you have been wrong.

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Found a decent source that tells us they are different. :::::::::

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So who, in your opinion, would constitute a complete midfielder?

849:(Alberto Helena Jr. is a reputable Brazilian football pundit). 4037:

3 half-backs (left wing-half, center-half and right wing-half)

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Gerrard is, Keane and Viera were. The others have never been.

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Female Representation on Knowledge Association Football Pages

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volante is midfielder, Spanish wiki wrote these is defensive

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No, as I mentioned before, your moves have been discussed at

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

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http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11750_4557569,00.html

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has separate sections for "outside midfielder" and "winger",

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your sources say winger & wide midfieler = same thing

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I am all for that if you move on to better things aswell.--

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are such; they were relatively rare in the 1980s and 1990s.

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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Do you have any statistical proof to back up this claim?--

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I say no, if I had to look him up it proves it. Dump him.

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Why?They are All WINGERS.For real.Look at their profiles.

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2 inside forwards (inside left and inside right forwards)

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I agree, it's over-complicated and probably unnecessary.

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http://www.soccer-training-guide.com/left-midfielder.html

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Carrick Supported by Scholes in deep lying playmaker role

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being a star player in one of the big 5 European leagues

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who are these wide midfielders, please name them please

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Wingers are experiencing a revival today - for example

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Why?Its ture Edu and Keane are not holding midfielders.

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having won or been placed highly in Ballon D'Or voting

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being a past winner or multiple winner of the CL or WC

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sources don't say there's a difference. Well they do:

4093:, may be the terms just oppose to winger but not all 416:

Due to vandalism on other pages by the user who made

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to determine whether its use and function meets the

101:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 4338:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 4213:short note justifying why they should be included. 2193:

That appears to be the overwhelming consensus here.

364:. Let's merge it back to the major article here. 4064:WHAT WIKIPEDIA CALLS A "CENTER FORWARD" WAS BORN. 2929:Can you please expalin your POV in more detail.?-- 4220:playing in the most recent Champions League final 1860:Source, but there should be far more than that.-- 1054:examples are good, however the fewer the better. 233:The list of "complete midfielders" is debatable. 957:To stop people adding stupid names to the list. 4324:This message was posted before February 2018. 1247:Cesc Fabregas is NOT an Box to Box midfielder! 544:Football (Australian rules) positions#Midfield 3973:Winger should be moved to the Forward article 8: 484:I'd advocate splitting this article up into 912:Just a small thing on attacking midfielders 215:This page is pretty woeful and misleading. 4278:I have just modified one external link on 4223:playing in the most recent World Cup final 4216:Reasons for being notable could include: 4208:Adding notable players in a structured way 1133: 874: 726: 683: 627: 501: 310: 280: 47: 2227:otherwise the section would be clear OR. 656:20:15 (edit 20:17), 25 August 2006 (UTC) 186:] The anchor (#Second striker) has been 3326:] regarding a merger and a page move.-- 2092: 49: 19: 4313:to let others know (documentation at 2911:, even just as a courtesy. Thanks. 536:Football (Australian rules) positions 7: 3016:). I think that speaks for itself. 1892:"wiki should reflect todays reality" 95:This article is within the scope of 2703:Defensive midfielder/holding player 1399:yet both are wingers. end of story 560:positions of "wing" or "centre". -- 430:It's vandalism. Duly reverted. -- 38:It is of interest to the following 4029:2 full-backs (left and right back) 2563:Added ref to the article, thanks. 14: 4282:. Please take a moment to review 1983:reverted back to last version by 4599:Top-importance football articles 4547:Midfielder(association football) 4539: 4530:Midfielder(association football) 160: 82: 72: 51: 20: 4564:until a consensus is reached. 4513:Write short note on RIGHT;MIDD 4294:Corrected formatting/usage for 4056:2-3-5 Danubian School formation 3413:making the change to the page. 873:Isn't Deco a box 2 box player? 395:Done, together with merge from 362:Midfielder#Defensive midfielder 135:This article has been rated as 4203:20:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC) 698:16:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC) 115:Knowledge:WikiProject Football 1: 4604:WikiProject Football articles 4580:18:41, 13 November 2023 (UTC) 4437:13:43, 27 February 2017 (UTC) 4419:into the existing articles. 4097:equal to holding midfielder. 3954:05:27, 18 February 2009 (UTC) 3934:18:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC) 3911:17:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC) 3892:17:51, 11 December 2008 (UTC) 3878:17:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC) 3863:17:39, 11 December 2008 (UTC) 3839:08:16, 11 December 2008 (UTC) 3808:23:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 3778:08:16, 11 December 2008 (UTC) 3750:22:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 3708:22:20, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 3653:19:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 3638:19:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 3617:19:06, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 3590:18:57, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 3556:18:36, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 3537:18:24, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 3515:18:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 3489:18:09, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 3448:17:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 3423:08:26, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 2852:06:30, 19 February 2012 (UTC) 2834:05:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC) 2785:05:50, 18 February 2009 (UTC) 1283:13:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC) 1267:20:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC) 936:19:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC) 526:I don't know Rugby, but both 490:Midfielder (Australian rules) 356:Most of what is described in 343:17:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC) 287:17:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC) 259:05:50, 6 September 2005 (UTC) 118:Template:WikiProject Football 109:and see a list of open tasks. 4165:16:39, 29 January 2012 (UTC) 4123:Centre vs Central Midfielder 3977:Time for the lecture, guys! 3394:21:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC) 2137:midfielders, sweepers, etc. 1033:and fruitless POV debates. 1026:19:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC) 947:20:18, 1 November 2007 (UTC) 904:19:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC) 854:02:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC) 819:00:17, 19 January 2008 (UTC) 751:I've removed the following: 741:10:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC) 714:23:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC) 583:04:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC) 542:at the to of the article to 470:00:21, 19 January 2008 (UTC) 368:can remain as a redirect to 302:04:41, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 4235:having been voted onto the 4185:22:05, 25 August 2012 (UTC) 3362:17:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC) 3336:17:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC) 3312:17:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC) 3293:17:42, 17 August 2008 (UTC) 3278:17:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC) 3241:17:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC) 3191:18:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 3145:18:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 3103:18:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 3060:17:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 3026:17:55, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 2988:17:41, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 2962:17:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 2939:17:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 2921:14:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 2902:12:52, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 835:15:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 804:22:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC) 667:20:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC) 642:15:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC) 90:Association football portal 4620: 4355:(last update: 5 June 2024) 4275:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 3571:source 2: is opinion piece 1112:13:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC) 1086:15:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC) 1064:14:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC) 1042:14:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC) 868:21:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC) 617:03:13, 6 August 2006 (UTC) 404:11:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 387:19:20, 21 April 2006 (UTC) 377:16:28, 21 April 2006 (UTC) 317:10:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC) 246:12:41, 2 August 2005 (UTC) 237:June 28, 2005 17:16 (UTC) 141:project's importance scale 4594:B-Class football articles 4523:05:57, 4 March 2022 (UTC) 4484:02:36, 30 July 2020 (UTC) 4459:17:49, 1 March 2017 (UTC) 4266:22:02, 22 July 2013 (UTC) 4242:having been named on the 4150:12:53, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 4118:17:35, 17 July 2010 (UTC) 4068:George Rodney Maruri Game 3992:1 full-back (center-back) 3968:13:52, 13 June 2010 (UTC) 2881:00:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC) 2817:07:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC) 2766:08:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC) 2750:10:35, 16 July 2008 (UTC) 2726:05:25, 22 June 2008 (UTC) 2691:21:52, 22 June 2008 (UTC) 2665:17:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 2644:17:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 2626:17:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 2612:17:14, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 2573:08:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC) 2523:03:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC) 2474:21:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 2431:20:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 2383:18:33, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 2349:18:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 2319:18:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 2293:17:51, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 2271:17:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 2253:17:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 2237:17:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 2213:13:33, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 2173:13:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 2147:12:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 2080:12:30, 23 June 2008 (UTC) 2061:07:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC) 2036:02:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC) 2021:02:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC) 1997:21:31, 22 June 2008 (UTC) 1963:21:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC) 1937:21:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC) 1914:20:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC) 1885:21:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1870:20:49, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1853:20:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1821:15:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1771:13:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1728:13:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1690:13:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1655:13:38, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1625:13:35, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1599:13:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1577:13:31, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1559:13:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1544:13:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1519:13:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1485:13:12, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1445:13:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1409:13:03, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1387:13:03, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1359:13:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1344:13:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1241:20:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 1216:03:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC) 1190:17:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 1152:21:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC) 889:19:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC) 602:20:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC) 328:10:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC) 134: 67: 46: 4552:redirects for discussion 4534:Redirects for discussion 4503:05:44, 15 May 2021 (UTC) 4076:23:57, 5 July 2019 (UTC) 565:06:58, 18 May 2006 (UTC) 551:06:48, 18 May 2006 (UTC) 520:21:39, 17 May 2006 (UTC) 448:17:24, 16 May 2006 (UTC) 443:Figures. Good call. -- 435:07:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC) 425:18:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC) 210: 4390:01:50, 4 May 2016 (UTC) 4271:External links modified 1314:01:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC) 971:Deep-lying playmakers: 4239:world team of the year 2683:CorleoneSerpicoMontana 2375:CorleoneSerpicoMontana 2285:CorleoneSerpicoMontana 2245:CorleoneSerpicoMontana 2139:CorleoneSerpicoMontana 2070:same positional name. 1989:CorleoneSerpicoMontana 1807:There seem to be some 1763:CorleoneSerpicoMontana 1682:CorleoneSerpicoMontana 1617:CorleoneSerpicoMontana 1569:CorleoneSerpicoMontana 1536:CorleoneSerpicoMontana 987:Attacking midfielder: 779:Tottenham Hotspur F.C. 528:Rugby league positions 188:deleted by other users 28:This article is rated 3324:Please see this talk 859:Box 2 Box Midfielders 759:Shaun Wright-Phillips 648:Poor Article diagrams 532:Rugby union positions 4336:regular verification 1289:Deep lying playmaker 562:The Brain of Morbius 103:Association football 98:WikiProject Football 4556:redirect guidelines 4550:has been listed at 4326:After February 2018 4305:parameter below to 486:Midfielder (soccer) 4331:InternetArchiveBot 4155:Yes. Change made. 4033:THREE MIDFIELDERS 3461:I'm familiar with 494:Midfielder (rugby) 34:content assessment 4388: 4356: 3580:comment added by 3527:comment added by 3504:Cristiano Ronaldo 3438:comment added by 3384:comment added by 2883: 2871:comment added by 2819: 2807:comment added by 2429: 2211: 2059: 1483: 1443: 1385: 1342: 1316: 1300:comment added by 1269: 1257:comment added by 1239: 1154: 1138:comment added by 1079:Vincent Valentine 1035:Vincent Valentine 1028: 1012:comment added by 938: 922:comment added by 891: 879:comment added by 743: 731:comment added by 700: 688:comment added by 644: 632:comment added by 540:disambiguity link 522: 506:comment added by 412:Fact verification 319: 289: 211:Mandel's comments 208: 207: 177:in most browsers. 155: 154: 151: 150: 147: 146: 121:football articles 4611: 4572: 4549: 4543: 4425:Domenico Berardi 4384: 4383:Talk to my owner 4379: 4354: 4353: 4332: 4320: 4191:side midfielders 4162: 4147: 4142: 4139: 4114: 4107: 4101: 3996:TWO MIDFIELDERS 3592: 3539: 3450: 3396: 3354:The Rambling Man 3304:The Rambling Man 3270:The Rambling Man 3183:The Rambling Man 3095:The Rambling Man 3018:The Rambling Man 2954:The Rambling Man 2913:The Rambling Man 2866: 2802: 2731:Orthodox Wingers 2428: 2426: 2419: 2412: 2210: 2208: 2201: 2194: 2124: 2119: 2113: 2108: 2102: 2097: 2058: 2056: 2049: 2042: 1482: 1480: 1473: 1466: 1442: 1440: 1433: 1426: 1384: 1382: 1375: 1368: 1341: 1339: 1332: 1325: 1295: 1252: 1238: 1236: 1229: 1222: 1007: 959:My suggestion: 917: 593:Stanley Matthews 480:Different sports 202:Reporting errors 164: 163: 157: 123: 122: 119: 116: 113: 92: 87: 86: 76: 69: 68: 63: 55: 48: 31: 25: 24: 16: 4619: 4618: 4614: 4613: 4612: 4610: 4609: 4608: 4584: 4583: 4566: 4545: 4537: 4511: 4469: 4403:be merged with 4401:Inverted winger 4399:I propose that 4397: 4387: 4382: 4347: 4340:have permission 4330: 4314: 4288:this simple FaQ 4273: 4210: 4173: 4160: 4145: 4140: 4137: 4125: 4112: 4105: 4099: 4083: 4021:2-3-5 formation 4004:SEVEN FORWARDS 3984:1-2-7 formation 3975: 3575: 3522: 3433: 3379: 3376: 2889: 2862: 2860:Deco/playmakers 2795: 2742:222.153.162.252 2733: 2705: 2599: 2597:Re-add examples 2422: 2415: 2413: 2204: 2197: 2195: 2129: 2128: 2127: 2120: 2116: 2109: 2105: 2098: 2094: 2052: 2045: 2043: 1476: 1469: 1467: 1436: 1429: 1427: 1378: 1371: 1369: 1335: 1328: 1326: 1322: 1291: 1249: 1232: 1225: 1223: 963:Defencive mid: 955: 914: 861: 842: 828: 767:Joaquín Sánchez 749: 733:217.205.102.202 722: 682:Great joke:))) 677: 650: 624: 609: 595: 482: 414: 354: 213: 204: 180: 179: 178: 161: 120: 117: 114: 111: 110: 88: 81: 61: 32:on Knowledge's 29: 12: 11: 5: 4617: 4615: 4607: 4606: 4601: 4596: 4586: 4585: 4536: 4526: 4510: 4507: 4506: 4505: 4474:Best regards, 4473: 4468: 4465: 4464: 4463: 4462: 4461: 4440: 4439: 4396: 4395:Merge proposal 4393: 4380: 4374: 4373: 4366: 4299: 4298: 4272: 4269: 4250: 4249: 4246: 4240: 4233: 4230: 4227: 4224: 4221: 4209: 4206: 4189:BTW Where are 4172: 4169: 4168: 4167: 4124: 4121: 4089:and offensive 4082: 4079: 4053: 4052: 4049: 4046: 4041:FIVE FORWARDS 4039: 4038: 4031: 4030: 4025:TWO DEFENDERS 4018: 4017: 4013: 4010: 4002: 4001: 3994: 3993: 3974: 3971: 3941: 3940: 3939: 3938: 3937: 3936: 3916: 3915: 3914: 3913: 3895: 3894: 3880: 3850: 3849: 3848: 3847: 3846: 3845: 3844: 3843: 3842: 3841: 3817: 3816: 3815: 3814: 3813: 3812: 3811: 3810: 3789: 3788: 3787: 3786: 3785: 3784: 3783: 3782: 3781: 3780: 3757: 3756: 3755: 3754: 3753: 3752: 3726: 3722: 3713: 3712: 3711: 3710: 3695: 3694: 3693: 3687: 3681: 3675: 3669: 3656: 3655: 3626: 3625: 3624: 3623: 3622: 3621: 3620: 3619: 3598: 3597: 3596: 3595: 3594: 3593: 3572: 3569: 3561: 3560: 3559: 3558: 3541: 3540: 3496: 3495: 3494: 3493: 3492: 3491: 3454: 3453: 3452: 3451: 3426: 3425: 3375: 3372: 3371: 3370: 3369: 3368: 3367: 3366: 3365: 3364: 3343: 3342: 3341: 3340: 3339: 3338: 3317: 3316: 3315: 3314: 3296: 3295: 3262: 3261: 3260: 3259: 3258: 3257: 3256: 3255: 3254: 3253: 3252: 3251: 3250: 3249: 3248: 3247: 3246: 3245: 3244: 3243: 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3991: 3990: 3989: 3988:ONE DEFENDER 3986: 3985: 3981: 3978: 3972: 3970: 3969: 3965: 3961: 3956: 3955: 3951: 3947: 3935: 3931: 3927: 3922: 3921: 3920: 3919: 3918: 3917: 3912: 3908: 3904: 3899: 3898: 3897: 3896: 3893: 3889: 3885: 3881: 3879: 3875: 3871: 3867: 3866: 3865: 3864: 3860: 3856: 3840: 3836: 3832: 3827: 3826: 3825: 3824: 3823: 3822: 3821: 3820: 3819: 3818: 3809: 3805: 3801: 3797: 3796: 3795: 3794: 3793: 3792: 3791: 3790: 3779: 3775: 3771: 3767: 3766: 3765: 3764: 3763: 3762: 3761: 3760: 3759: 3758: 3751: 3747: 3743: 3739: 3735: 3731: 3727: 3723: 3719: 3718: 3717: 3716: 3715: 3714: 3709: 3705: 3701: 3696: 3691: 3688: 3685: 3682: 3679: 3676: 3673: 3670: 3667: 3664: 3663: 3660: 3659: 3658: 3657: 3654: 3650: 3646: 3642: 3641: 3640: 3639: 3635: 3631: 3618: 3614: 3610: 3606: 3605: 3604: 3603: 3602: 3601: 3600: 3599: 3591: 3587: 3583: 3579: 3573: 3570: 3567: 3566: 3565: 3564: 3563: 3562: 3557: 3553: 3549: 3545: 3544: 3543: 3542: 3538: 3534: 3530: 3526: 3519: 3518: 3517: 3516: 3513: 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