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1942:, as a perfect recent exemplar of an article where fans of a subject tried to have most of the content drawn from the subject's own affiliated sites. That ended up with at least one topic ban. I'm sorry it got so bad before anyone noticed, but it has to be fixed. Knowledge does not allow so much of any article to be drawn from the subject's own sites, and does not allow mission statements (see
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1860:, but it seems nobody remembered to follow up in subject-specific templates (I have now started that process). Knowledge has had many naive ideas over time, and that was one of them. The problem is that mission statements are not NPOV - especially with think-tanks, who often describe themselves in terms even Orwell would consider a bit blatant.
1924:
cutting citing subjective interpretations of WP Politics. He also deleted a summary of duplicated topics that I do yesterday to reduce any possible judge of promotion, I think that the constructive intention of the user should be more clear and will be more clear if we makes punctual proposals of redaction here before than in the article. --
1413:, No, they have not been caught "lying". They have been wrong, and corrected themselves, occasionally. But reliable independent secondary sources routinely quote them, and thus so do we, but only with attribution. A review of the history of the individuals involved does make it rather obvious why SPLC listed them.
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The section of
Criticism has a paragraph that I see inaproppiate, because the content is not really criticism to the institution (that it is an independent academic organization, not a political proselitism organization) but to persons that have done a kind of activism or expressing opinions in their
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Re: "They have been wrong, and corrected themselves, occasionally", please show your evidence that the SPLC ever retracted their false claim that the First Iowa
Stormer Bookclub exists. They have never issued a correction or in any way admitted that they were wrong, despite multiple print and TV news
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be used as a source for whether an organization is a hate group or and individual is part of a hate group; they have been caught lying about that far too many times) but they are otherwise widely recognized by reliable sources as an authority, and there is zero reason to remove what they say in this
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Is there anyone claiming the SPLC is biased other than those the SPLC has pointed out the shortcomings of? In other words: are you claiming that the SPLC has a realistic or unrealistic lack of support for the Mises
Institute? (Compare "NASA is not a neutral source, it is an ideological adversary of
1630:
That's a quite a coat of arms apparently claimed by the Mises
Institute. I mean, I'm no expert on reading heraldry, but apparently they're claiming that it was a crown-grant, which is most impressive for an American organization formed in 1982. Was it from the King of the Moon? I realize that this
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They never met. The restaurant was never named. The local police did a thorough investigation and found zero evidence for the meeting ever happening or or the group ever existing. Someone with the user name
Concerned Troll posted something on the Daily Stormer website and that's all the "evidence"
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website, claiming that this "book club" met sometime in
September 2016 at a unnamed restaurant somewhere in the Amana Colonies, Iowa. Based upon nothing more that that single post the SPLC listed the Iowa town a "refuge of hate" and listed them as as the home of the The First Iowa Stormer Bookclub
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fair for the wiki to, as it has done here, presume that the article topic is automatically in the right and present the article as such. The article should be from the consensus point of view of independent parties, as we do everywhere else, not the point of view of a single organization. As it is
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Also, I removed the retort from Lew. There's no source given to illustrate why the retort was notable (it's just his personal writings), and it's just an appeal to emotion and audacity instead of anything actually answering the SPLC reports claims. It doesn't make sense to give the majority of the
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Completely agree with Guy here. Virtually all organizations self-promote which is why independent sources are crucial. What is the importance of the mission statement? If it's covered in independent sources, discuss in the body, else omit. (I am not finding any reliable, independent sources which
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The SPLC is a third party, independent organization with a strong track record of impartial reliability. It's given 1.2 lines of the paragraph, with "Intelligence Report" in scarequotes, and its main argument is summarized in a few words. Lew
Rockwell, the primary source with an obvious lack of
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I think JzG should stop massive deleting content before there is a clear consensus about this. He is the one against the consensus. In my oppion his massive deleting is not justify. But could be better that the user writes here especific suggestions of redaction instead of just doing non sense
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It's inherent in the coat of arms: A barred helm with a crown on top means a major grant of nobility from the crown. (Heraldry was the emojis of the day, and even illiterates were expected to understand them at a glance.) Rather than that silly twaddle, why not use the logo from their website?
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activism outside their institutional functions. As those lines are not specific criticism to the labor of the institution, I think this paragraph needs to be erased. If there are criticism to persons in particular those criticism have to been in the respective articles.
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Then later, after there was a storm of controversy, the SPLC silently changed the claim to say that this imaginary hate group is "statewide". And the SPLC still to this day refuses to provide any evidence other than the internet post by "Concerned Troll" to support that
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the CoA is from the Mises Family. From the Mises institute website: The Mises
Institute's coat of arms is that of the Mises family, awarded in 1881 when Ludwig von Mises's great-grandfather Mayer Rachmiel Mises was ennobled by the Emperor Franz Josef I of Austria.
1313:
It's fair to point out that sources that
Knowledge deem reliable (e.g., the Washington Post) have pointed out that the SPLC is unreliable. These sources accuse the organization of having a history of charging individuals with false accusations. For example:
1740:, the grant of arms was to the Mises family not the institute. I could be the Queen's best mate (rather than merely having been invited to a Palace garden party once), I still could not use her coat of arms on my hypothetical Queen Elizabeth Institute.
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Kind of a moot point since I don't think
American law prevents the use of heraldry which isn't independently trademarked. Is this thread a proposal to remove the coat of arms from the article? I don't see the point in discussing this otherwise.
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The Southern Poverty Law Center is not a neutral source, it is an ideological adversary of libertarians and Mises Institute. Should every entry about an ideological organization include criticism by opponents? Is this a Knowledge custom?
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Let's check it. Anyway that article is from 2008, let's work just on what it say. But, Trump presidential campaign was from 2016, and there is not an institutional support/communicate of it. That could be inmediatly
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The Des Moines Register contacted the SPLC, and Ryan Lenz, a senior investigative writer for the SPLC initially told them that claims by community and Iowa County leaders that no such groups exist in the town are
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That's probably true, unless your relationship with the queen is as close as Rothbard's was with Mises. It might also be easier if the queen is driven out of England by the Nazis. Kind of a weird comparison.
1704:, which is bullshit. The Mises family coat of arms belongs to the Mises family, not to the recently formed think tank. I can't set up the Queen Elizabeth Institute and use the royal coat of arms.
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kind of thing has fallen by the wayside, but this is the modern equivalent of claiming several doctorates backed by diploma mills. I don't know if Knowledge should be giving it the time of day.
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They are unreliable on whether a hate group exists or on who is a member of a hate group. In other areas they are still widely cited by reliable sources and can be used with attribution. See
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There are several other places ("despite the historical Mises seems have sympathized to some conservative or right-wing cultural views") where the institute's claims are not presented
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Just wanted to post this here because it took a little while to track down. SPLC is citied as quoting Steve Horwitz's Fist in Glove quote. He is Horwitz quoting it himself.
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In any event, the SPLC is a participant rather than a source. IMO the whole section should go, but coverage of their response as such to the SPLC is certainly appropriate.
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change the claim to another false claim, you no longer have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, as required to be considered a reliable source. --
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other than a post on a neo-nazi website by an admitted troll, and then stand by your claim for well over a year without providing a shred of evidence, and
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-lost-all-credibility/2018/06/21/22ab7d60-756d-11e8-9780-b1dd6a09b549_story.html
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It wasn't just that Mises was close to Rothbard; Lew Rockwell also got the permission of Mises's widow to set up the organization in the Mises name.
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What do you mean by "participant"? They are an independent source which reported on the subject; reporting is not the same as participation. –
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impartiality, writing in a personal tract, is given 4 lines in which he makes arguments from incredulity and appeals to emotion.
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at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
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One could conclude the same thing about the names of many think tanks or government agencies. Should we censor those too?
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Apparently, someone with the screen name "Concerned Troll" posted "The First Iowa Stormer Bookclub was a success!" on the
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https://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2011/12/how-did-we-get-here-or-why-do-20-year-old-newsletters-matter-so-damn-much/
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cultural views of some of its leading figures, on topics such as race, immigration, and the presidential campaigns of
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SPLC is not neutral source, you have to share only neutral sources, otherwise you can find a denounce for defamation.
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its views, but there's no reason to exclude them as they are the single most cited source for this kind of analysis.
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I don't see anything the the article claiming it was a crown-grant. I think that on the US they are self-taken.
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By "participant" I meant that they are a political organization giving their opinion or talking points.
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What you call "WP politics" is what everyone must follow on Knowledge, that is not for free speech or
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That is far from a balanced PoV. That is a clear concession to the puffery of the article's topic.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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SPLC is an accepted source for facts such as this. Sources are not required to be neutral. See
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Please note the "opinion" part: that's only the personal opinion of columnist Thiessen. —
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SPLC is widely cited off-wiki as an authority. Its biases are open and known. We always
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By Knowledge's own standards, the SPLC cannot be taken as a reliable or neutral source.
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Sheffield's essay characterizes the institute itself, not just the leading figures.
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It is fair for the wiki to record the article topic's response to criticisms. It is
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Your "you can find a denounce" statement appears to be a violation of
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now, the article reads as a barely concerned self-written piece.
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What is the point of having motto and mission parameters to
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Debate on the Reliable Source Noticeboard concerning Mises
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contributors may be personally or professionally connected
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Re "Knowledge ....does not allow mission statements (see
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, you can
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The SPLC vigorously stood by its claim for a full year
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of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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involving Mises on the reliable sources noticeboard
2243:Rutenberg, Jim; Kovaleski, Serge F. (2011-12-26).
1478:See this report from the Iowa City Press Ciitizen:
1938:I have a better idea. Go read the discussions at
1856:, they are deprecated in the parent template per
1665:https://mises.org/sites/default/files/logo_v3.png
1597:When you make a claim without a shred of evidence
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
1899:. Seriously. Go, nuke it wherever you see it.
1521:The First Iowa Stormer Bookclub never existed.
2202:Sanchez, Julian; Weigel, David (2008-01-16).
2158:Adding to what Binksternet wrote, please see
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1979:(WP:NOT being policy). —
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2349:— Preceding
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2198:Donald Trump
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2112:— Preceding
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19:This is the
2146:Binksternet
279:renominated
148:free images
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2376:Categories
2261:2020-12-28
2237:2020-12-28
2213:2020-12-28
2208:Reason.com
2194:right-wing
2093:Flickotown
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1998:WP:MISSION
1944:WP:MISSION
1897:WP:MISSION
1858:WP:MISSION
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1633:AndroidCat
1123:Nskinsella
720:discussion
326:Not listed
2355:JonesyPHD
2303:erased.--
2256:0362-4331
2232:0190-8286
2135:WP:BIASED
2021:North8000
2007:North8000
1649:North8000
1606:Guy Macon
1411:Guy Macon
1390:Guy Macon
1359:attribute
1254:North8000
1241:dlthewave
1235:North8000
1212:North8000
611:Economics
602:Economics
558:Economics
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2363:contribs
2351:unsigned
2327:Llll5032
2305:Krapulat
2286:Llll5032
2271:Krapulat
2164:Llll5032
2126:contribs
2114:unsigned
1926:Krapulat
1702:Maxlysle
1689:Maxlysle
1322:unsigned
1133:contribs
1117:contribs
442:Politics
433:politics
384:American
379:Politics
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2160:WP:SPLC
2025:WP:NPOV
1987:Neonate
1952:WP:NPOV
1348:Neonate
1151:Nicmart
1057:on the
928:on the
823:on the
725:Alabama
706:Alabama
663:Alabama
638:on the
469:on the
350:B-class
304:Process
223:60 days
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1560:claim.
1542:wrong.
1099:, and
356:scale.
307:Result
265:was a
126:Google
2036:help!
2000:)",
1982:Paleo
1963:help!
1908:help!
1869:help!
1749:help!
1713:help!
1422:help!
1385:never
1370:help!
1343:Paleo
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2359:talk
2331:talk
2309:talk
2290:talk
2275:talk
2253:ISSN
2229:ISSN
2192:and
2168:talk
2150:talk
2122:talk
2097:talk
2063:uidh
2012:talk
1930:talk
1884:talk
1844:talk
1832:this
1799:Talk
1764:talk
1729:talk
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1654:talk
1637:talk
1610:talk
1602:then
1394:talk
1330:talk
1259:talk
1217:talk
1196:talk
1173:talk
1155:talk
1144:SPLC
1127:talk
1111:talk
1049:High
301:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
2030:Guy
1957:Guy
1902:Guy
1863:Guy
1826:JzG
1793:MJL
1743:Guy
1707:Guy
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1283:not
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630:Low
461:Low
176:TWL
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