Talk:North Shore (Chicago)

553:

Ryan (CEO of Aon, which was under investigation by the New York Attorney General's Office) are Winnetka residents. But is there anyone who is among the most powerful in the nation? If you look at the Forbes World's Richest People list, four North Shore residents are listed, but none are arguably among the most powerful. Successful doctors, lawyers, executives, journalists, professors, athletes, and entrepreneurs live in the North Shore. But the most powerful people live in the Washington (D.C.) area (federal government officials, politicians, legislators, Supreme Court justices), Los Angeles area (entertainment moguls and others in Beverly Hills, Brentwood, Bel Air, Malibu, Newport Beach, and other places), and New York (investment bankers, executives, national media executives, and others). Chicago is the capital of the Midwest, but is not really a power broker. I guess the definition of "powerful" is subjective.

652:"Affluent" is used four times in the course of this article, including twice in the first paragraph. It's not that I don't know that the North Shore is primarily (though not exclusively) populated by people with high incomes (duh!), but it seems to me that the word is being used as a baseball bat rather than as an explanatory device. That is, it stretches the bounds of NPOV, especially since there is no hard data in the article to support this claim (though there is in the articles on the individual communities). So. . .what do I want done? I'm enough of a newbie to not feel comfortable rewriting the article, but as the article grows, I'd like to see a move away from the focus on that adjective. -- 532:

culturally like the North Shore at all. The North Shore is charactorized by huge houses, old money and sports cars. Take a ride around the others - I don't think you're going to find the same thing. Also, looking at other Knowledge articles, it seems that most of the North Shore has pretty high median incomes - some $ 150k+ - while some of those mentioned above are around the $ 50-60k mark. That's a pretty huge gap. Also, Evanston is far more diverse than any of the other North Shore suburbs. I've never really considered it part of the North Shore, but I see how others can put it there because of it's location. Just some thoughts. -Obstructio

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have commuter train service now (on a former freight line), experienced most of their growth after World War II and thus are built primarily around the needs of the automobile. There is a pronounced qualitative difference between the old-money North Shore and the more recently affluent suburbs inland. Just drive west on Lake Avenue from downtown Wilmette or Lake-Cook Road from Highland Park. As soon as you start to approach the Edens, the landscape changes drastically. At this point, you've left the North Shore. In fact, I think I'd go so far as to designate Skokie Boulevard as a western boundary. --

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estate industry in particular tends to market nearby properties by reference to a desirable area, and so terms properties as "North Shore" even though they aren't. Upwardly mobile homeowners and community leaders want to think of their towns and schools as having the same desirable characteristics associated with the North Shore, and some businesses use the name even if they are not located strictly in the North Shore. Meanwhile, those within the original meaning of the North Shore seek to "protect their brand" against dilution.

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a rail line toward the southwest. Should the cities then be listed inner-to-outer (so that they're in the "right" order vertically, north to south) or outer-to-inner (so that they're in the "right" order horizontally, west to east)? The best convention to establish as a precedent, I think, would be one that could apply equally to suburbs extending in any direction. To me, that's an argument for inner-to-outer, regardless of compass direction. --

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communities, westward into Deerfield, Buffalo Grove etc. The Culture of this are ( Very large Jewish Population, realtively high income) seperates it from the rural/"post-rural" areas like Crystal lake, Mundlein, or Hawthorne Woods. To me the Cultural North Shore ends at about Buffalo Grove. (Keeping in mind District 125 extends from West Lake Forest to parts of Mundelein, Lake Zurich, and Hawthorne Woods)

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proceeding away from the city. It seems silly to start the list with communities whose distance from the city makes their inclusion debatable and to end it with those that have the strongest "North Shore" associations. The strongest associations, it seems to me, should come first. If there's no objection, I'll go ahead and change it back in a few days. --

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plausible boundary -- Waukegan Road, the Tri-State and the North Branch of the Chicago River. I think there are some folks out there who'd like to declare all of Lake County and northern Cook County to be part of the "North Shore" and don't get that the concept has actual historical and geographical meaning.

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It is just simple fact that there are a bunch of businesses etc. that now use the term "North Shore" even tho they;re in non-traditional NS communities. Some of these used to be further east but moved inland because land on the Shore is so pricy. Again, some research would bear this out. This article

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The timetable you posted is interesting. I notice that it has different lines, the "Shore" line and the "Skokie Valley" line. Some of the stops on the "Shore" line are the same stops on the existing CTA system, others relate to streetcar lines that once existed and are now gone. (Kenosha, I think,

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Is it really that important that the list of names match a map? You say going south-to-north "flies in the face of convention," but I'm not sure that we've really established what convention is, in this case. Suppose the article dealt with a string of suburbs that extended outward from the city along

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I was not the editor who added it and struggled with it as I don't think it's commonly associated with the North Shore. However, there is evidence of it being considered part of the North Shore, with what I found: Fodor's Tour Guide lists it as part of that, and the North Shore astronomy society is

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Evanston doesn't really "set the political tone" for the rest of the North Shore; in fact, it's something of an anomaly compared with its northern neighbors. It's strongly Democratic and liberal, not to mention ethnically diverse, whereas most of the North Shore is moderate-to-conservative Republican

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Speaking of which, someone has inserted "citation needed" next to the sentence, "A few inland suburbs — e.g., Glenview, Deerfield, Northfield, and Northbrook — also are considered by some to be part of the North Shore . . . ." I should think the fact that residents of these suburbs persist in trying

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Well, I got called out on this exact same issue on a couple of streets in Chicago, where historically it makes far more sense to start in Chicago and work outwards. But the convention on roads is quite clear, so I lost. In any case, since historically the train company started with Waukegan, I think

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Yes, I understand your desire to not list the questionable ones first, but the reverse order flies in the face of convention. Sorry for ranting when I changed it back, I figured it was one of those people who slap anything into the article. I would prefer to label somehow that Winthrop Harbor, Zion,

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of Lake Michigan. The second concept of the North Shore is a cultural and social concept in which some people posit that Deerfield, Northbrook, Northfield, and Glenview are also North Shore communities because they are similar to the original North Shore communities and are nearby. This definition

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It's rather amusing that people on here want to debate what is and what isn't the north shore. People from Lake forest, lake bluff, kenikworth,n winnetka, wilmette just want it to be them, and omit Waukegan, north Chicago just because they aren't rich. Even though they both meet the rudimentary and

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It is currently stated in this article that only the suburbs built before 1963 when the Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee Railroad was taken down are considered to be the North Shore suburbs. Are there any reliable official sources (beside Knowledge) which would indicate which are the suburbs which

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Some census data to support the claim: In 2000, Evanston's median household income was $ 56,335; Wilmette's, $ 106,773; Kenilworth's, more than $ 200,000 (that's where the census stops counting); Winnetka's, $ 167,458; Glencoe's, $ 164,432; Highland Park's, $ 100,687; Lake Forest's, $ 136,462; Lake

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wasn't part of the North Shore? I was simply disputing the assertion that it "set the political tone" for other North Shore suburbs, which has since been removed from the article. Also, on what basis do you say that Northfield et al. are "most certainly" part of the North Shore? They were not built

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As several of the discussions and repeated attempted edits show, to be "North Shore" is generally considered desirable. Quite natural when an area has a reputation of affluence, good schools, low crime, etc. And so, as with many brands, the term tends to be subject to expansion pressures. The real

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I think the key to this debate is when the term "North Shore" is used, its contexts vary from geographical true North Shore (Those actually on the lake) to the cultural North Shore; the latter being the result of migration of Boomers out of West Rogers Park, Skokie, etc, as well as old North Shore

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If you want to make the definition both geographic and socioeconomic, you certainly must omit ft Sheridan, highwood, Evanston, Waukegan, north Chicago, Zion, Winthrop harbor. But then you are left with a smattering of nonsequential places. That's why this whole thing is both idiotic and amusing.

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It now reads a lot more cleanly. It also is apparent that the history is sketchy and a lot better sourcing and fleshing out of the facts would be nice. Also, some discussion and sourcing of North Shore "attitude" and what the cachet refers to. This, to be accurate, would include some negatives as

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Vernon Hills? Now I think you are kidding me. West of the Tri-State, west of Route 45 for that matter, it was a farm until the 1950s and until the 1970s its village hall was run out of a motel. Probably most of the people on the North Shore could not even find Vernon Hills on a map. It has a nice

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Really? Some of the most powerful people in Chicagoland live in the North Shore. But the most powerful people in the nation? I think not. I know that Chris Galvin (Motorola CEO who was pressured to resign), Betsy Holden (Kraft Co-CEO who was demoted and later resigned on her own), and Patrick

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similar to the original North Shore communities, for a fundamental reason: The original North Shore communities are all streetcar suburbs, communities that sprang up before World War II around railroad stations, specifically stations on one line, the North Shore Line. Deerfield et al., while they

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I think much of this depends on the definition of the North Shore either as a historical/geographical one or as more of a "cultural" one. In the latter Deerfield et al belong where as they don't in the former. While I don't have a strong opinion on the subject Geoffrey Baer's documentry on the

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A lot of the discussion on this page could go into the main article, but not at this raw, unsourced, very opinionated stage. What this article needs is considerably more fleshing out on the History side, including the first usages of the term, the important aspects of railroads, and real estate

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I'm a longtime resident of Skokie, another suburb bordering Evanston, and I'd like to mention that I don't consider it, Evanston, Deerfield,, Glenview, etc, to be a part of the North Shore in any way, shape, or form. We're not on the lake, to begin with. Also, the abovementioned suburbs are not

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The North Shore outside Evanston does lean Republican, but in the old Northeastern moderate Republican sense. The Congressman who represents the North Shore, Mark Kirk (who is now the Republican candidate for Senate in the 2010 election), has or recently had a 50% positive rating from both the

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I have undertaken a reorg of this article in part because it was a mess and in part to deal with the socioeconomic aspect which has also spawned some of the discussion on this Talk page. My main reorg is to start with the history, then I placed some of the socioeconomic aspects. This creates

682:

A while back someone reordered the list of communities to run north-to-south, because this visually resembles how they appear on a map. However, it makes more sense to me to restore them to their original south-to-north order, beginning with Evanston -- the community closest to Chicago -- and

607:

Vernon Hills is even more preposterous a reach than Bannockburn. It leapfrogs right over Lincolnshire, Wheeling and Long Grove, none of which, as far as I know, has ever been considered part of the North Shore. Not only is it on the far side of Skokie Boulevard/U.S. 41, it's past every other

1060:

No, sorry. Please read all the comments on this page from top to bottom. Besides, a source needs to be authoritative. Your first I can't find, sorry, it goes 404. The second source is a tourism promo map. It is about as authoritative as a pickup map at a rent-a-car

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Northfield, Glenview, Northbrook, and Deerfield are most certainly part of the North Shore. "North Shore" is not a technical geographic concept... it describes an area which includes some communities to the immediate west of those which border Lake Michigan.

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I renamed the "What Does the North Shore Refer To?" section to a heading without a question mark. I created a subsection there to deal with the wannabe, aspirational aspect -- which makes sense once one has read about the history and socioeconomics.

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and maybe Waukegan and North Chicago are not really in the North Shore. But may I point out that the railroad was founded in Waukegan, and that concepts change over time. Even as a kid, I considered Waukegan through Evanston as the North Shore, and

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the Illinois Beach State Park. That pretty much includes everything from the Wisconsin border to Juneway Terrace. It's hard enough to keep people from including Arlington Heights or whatever in the North Shore, so let's work together on this.

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On the other hand, Vernon Hills has a very different settlement pattern then does the rest of the communities, as it was really sprouted up around malls, rather then having as much "old" settlement like the other communities listed.

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Bluff's, $ 114,521. (The odd burb out is Highwood, with a MHI of $ 42,993.) In 2000, an income of $ 55,331 or higher put a U.S. household in one of the top two earning quintiles, and $ 88,030 or more put it in the top quintile (see

842:

I've added some colour coding to the key of the map, and tidied it up a bit. However, the image itself isn't the best - looks like someone whipped it up in paint. Does someone have, or could someone make, a more respectable image?

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the towns, with the exception of Kenilworth), but that there are aspects of society and culture that have come to be associated with the term. One aspect of "North Shore" is simply geography. Another is the cachet.

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I don't think it makes a bit of difference what North Shore Magazine (which no longer exists) did. They could have marketed a special edition to Kankakee for all I care, that wouldn't make Kankakee North Shore.

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boom burbs are mostly in DuPage County, to the west. I think DuPage County is probably the better analogue for Orange County. The North Shore is more like Beverly Hills. Or, better yet, Westchester County, N.Y.

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For geographic and cultural reasons I would not include Zion or Waukegan. Waukegan is a city in its own right. The forts formed the northern edge of the North Shore even tho the railroad kept going.

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I don't know that much about Orange County, but I'm skeptical of the North Shore–O.C. comparison. The North Shore is old money, and the municipalities were all incorporated before World War II; the

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The cachet began practically before much of the area was even populated, because it was a getaway from the teeming density of Chicago. That was part of the reason the railroad stops came to be.

269:- To me, "North Shore" has always referred only to those suburbs that actually front on Lake Michigan. Skokie, Glenview, Northbrook, etc. are north suburbs but not part of the "North Shore." 578:

Scott Turow was a Wilmette resident, not a Winnetka resident, where he was active in civic activities. He moved moved several years ago. I think he moved to Glencoe or maybe Highland Park.

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Agree with this sentiment. As a transplant from both Boston and New York the north shore is similar to Westchester and specifically Wellesley/Newton/Brookline corridor in Massachusetts.

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Everybody on the North Shore knows that North Shore is occasionally used "loosely" but certainly could never be applied to Crystal Lake, Mundelein or Hawthorne Woods, or Buffalo Grove.

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Why would an article on X have a list of "things that are not X" even if included in a subsection called "some people think of these as X"? It starts to seem like a Monty Python skit.

1147:

I suspect that, actually, North Shore Magazine may have played a significant part in popularizing the term esp. for RE purposes. Some research would be necessary to check this out.

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came about because their supporters wanted their communities to be associated with the prestige and respect of the North Shore. This ambiguity should be discussed in the article.

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literal definition of "north shore." Why don't we just re-name this the "rich people feel good page", so rich white people can feel good about themselves and feel elite.

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As for the North Shore Astronomy Society's being based in Vernon Hills, the Chicago Fire are now based in Bridgeview; that doesn't make Bridgeview part of Chicago. --

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defined by where the trains went, and by proximity to the Lake, of course. Train companies tend to come and go, but the train tracks outlast everything around them.

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American Conservative Union and the Americans for Democratic Action, reflecting an unusually centrist point of view that is, presumably, shared by his constituents.

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I have modified the second intro sentence in the article to not merely state that there are wealthy communities (in reality, it's more wealthy census tracts

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So I don't really have a problem including it, or excluding it, but thought it might be a good example of helping us firm up what is the North Shore.

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The ambiguity is now discussed in the article. Whoever keeps adding Glenview and Northbrook back into the list of communities, you can stop now. --

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This issue was hashed out ages ago. In brief, a "North Shore" suburb meets two criteria: It was served by the historic North Shore Line of the

549:"Some of the most powerful people in the country live on Chicago's North Shore, one of the most affluent suburban areas in the United States." 623:

Vernon Hills? You have to drive so far from the lake that you almost fall off the edge of the earth. A mistake by Fodor does not a fact make.

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going N-S is the best default. We could ditch the list of communities entirely. Better yet, include a clickable map, that would be cool.

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subdivision development and speculation, and then some well-referenced, carefully worded discussion on the sociological side.

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Northbrook is a perfectly fine town! So is Skokie. Why do people feel the need to call them "North Shore"? It's so sad.

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Please share your opinions on this matter and if you object to the inclusion of these lists, please explain why not.

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want to think of themselves as North Shore to the extent that the term connotes elitism, inequality, or snobbery. :)

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Much of does, though, and it meets your "bordering Lake Michigan" criterion. Can't have it both ways, can you? --

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The concept of North Shore is a phenomenon. It is what it is. A good encyclopedia is supposed to be descriptive.

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the current list of communities which the historic Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee Railroad originally served

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You are correct. There are two concepts of the North Shore. The original usage refers to the communities

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for discussion of the term's origin and meaning which otherwise left a reader scratching their head.

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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along the Chicago & Northwestern Railroad's North Shore Line. More to the point, they have

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I condensed a number of lists which were awkward to read and not encyclopedic in format.

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Mentioning additional communities also considered to be apart of the North Shore area

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I also question whether they have the same mindset as the rest of the North Shore.

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and lily-white (except for working-class Highwood, North Chicago and Waukegan). --

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to add them into the list of North Shore communities would be evidence enough. --

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Overall, I suggest that we include the three following lists to the article:.

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for the North Shore Line. They had stops all over Zion and Winthrop Harbor.

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still has its streetcar.) The timetable from 1910 from your same website:

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Um, what are you talking about? Did you think I was trying to say that

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the North Shore communities map on this "North Shore" tourism website

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Additional Communities considered to belong to the North Shore area:

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Would you support adding a list to this article (in addition to

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has more or less the same stops as the existing "Metra" line.

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North Shore did include many non-shore touching suburbs.

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And, by the way, please everybody SIGN your posts here?

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What suburbs belong to the North Shore suburbs exactly?

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The communities mentioned in these lists are based on

1071:. The North Shore suburbs were and still are on the 881:

As a side note, some in egalitarian-minded Evanston

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Inland suburbs do not meet either of these criteria.

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Improvement needed to reflect sociocultural aspects

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A few quibbles from a longtime North Shore resident

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50: 45: 41: 35: 27: 23: 18: 17: 1175:— Preceding 1171: 1167: 1164: 1149: 1146: 1142: 1138: 1135: 1130: 1127: 1072: 1068: 1044: 1029: 1026:Vernon Hills 1015: 1014: 1013: 985: 984: 983: 931: 930: 929: 921: 914: 894: 888: 887: 882: 880: 876: 872: 869: 863: 861: 841: 813: 791: 764: 695: 681: 651: 643: 622: 596: 593: 589: 585: 575: 574: 551: 548: 501: 442: 418: 414: 373: 368: 347:Larry Siegel 337:71.194.38.54 320: 303:24.12.234.77 297:— Preceding 294: 288: 286: 268: 243: 203: 138: 97: 96: 40:WikiProjects 1181:64.41.0.225 959:Lake Forest 812:, and it's 795:Acidburn24m 569:Scott Turow 30:Start-class 1198:Categories 1004:Northfield 1001:Northbrook 974:Kenilworth 956:Lake Bluff 907:Ouilmette 571:, Winnetka 1153:Ouilmette 1090:Ouilmette 1047:TVJunkie2 1007:Deerfield 897:Ouilmette 810:CNS&M 710:timetable 599:Barkeep49 394:Barkeep49 1177:unsigned 1061:counter. 1023:Glenview 980:Evanston 977:Wilmette 971:Winnetka 962:Highwood 950:Waukegan 845:Danny252 838:Area Map 769:Speciate 742:Speciate 714:Speciate 701:Speciate 369:Evanston 299:unsigned 219:Illinois 210:Illinois 166:Illinois 1131:context 968:Glencoe 654:Nufftin 358:Trweiss 276:Trweiss 246:on the 141:on the 114:Chicago 107:or the 105:Chicago 59:Chicago 1144:well. 1069:valley 1010:Skokie 998:Gurnee 864:within 732:Mr. A. 685:Mr. A. 669:Mr. A. 625:Padena 615:Mr. A. 506:Mr. A. 475:Mr. A. 448:Mr. A. 378:Mr. A. 36:scale. 1073:shore 883:don't 502:stop. 419:shore 415:north 1185:talk 1157:talk 1112:talk 1094:talk 1051:talk 1038:and 947:Zion 901:talk 889:So: 849:talk 828:talk 799:talk 696:also 665:here 576:Note 341:talk 307:talk 765:was 443:not 238:Mid 133:Mid 1200:: 1187:) 1159:) 1114:) 1096:) 1053:) 1042:. 903:) 851:) 843:-- 830:) 801:) 504:-- 376:-- 343:) 309:) 274:-- 1183:( 1155:( 1110:( 1092:( 1049:( 899:( 847:( 826:( 797:( 339:( 305:( 250:. 145:. 111:. 42::

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