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Talk:Shia Islam in the Indian subcontinent

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1639:- Please dont distort statistics and present here to use as a tool to disturb the entire article at least for those which are clear with sources. One such example is Vali Nasr's 30 million claim. As an editor you should have taken into consideration the 30 million claim was made in year 2006 which you have not mentioned in the article while mentioning the figure in as late as in late 2010. Also Pakistan's total Population in 2006 was 165,873,928 of which 30 million constitutes over 18%. Hope you calculate well next time since you mentioned that figure as 15% which no where is correct. If you Claim the Library of Congress to be authentic enough to have reported Pakistan's Shias as 5% of its total population what do you have to say about 2390:
Syed Ahmad Barelvi as to sectarian violence is in Barbara Metcalf's book which is just saying about his urgence to people for that thinking it to be unislamic. About torning down of imambarahs by him, she herself says that it is no doubt considerably exaggerated. The other scholar's mention of Syed Ahmad Barelvi in sectarian violence needs to be clarified and the source itself needs to be checked with WP:HISTRS. Rest about the incident cited from Delhi's Urdu Akhbar has no mention of Syed Ahmad Barelvi's link to it. The legacy part has an unreliable source and even that too has no mention of Syed Ahmad Barelvi's link to it. It's just pushing a particular POV and amounts to
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over this minor issue. We are not living in 1990s, to know how many Shias there are in Pakistan we use the latest information provided by reliable sources such as the ones I added to the article. If you keep reverting you're just going to get your self blocked and this isn't what I wish for. We cannot rely on outdated information from the past or by unreliable sources when we have more than enough fresh ones by experts. If you think you are more of an expert than
512: 491: 2226:, killed more than 5000 Shias, and vandalized the holy shrines. In 1804, they attacked Prophet's Shrine in Medina and in 1805, Makkah, forcing people to adopt their creed. While this cruelty sent shock waves to the Muslims all around the globe, it encouraged Syed Ahmad Barelvi and Shah Ismail Dihlavi to take up arms and enforce their puritanical views. They were the pioneers of anti-Shia terrorism in the subcontinent. Barbara Metcalf says: 597: 1655:(ISBNs provided for your reference check) which are reputed think tanks and have reported Pakistan's Shia Population to be over 26-35 million in late 1990s i.e between 20%-25% so why have you not done methodical research of all reliable sources and inserted the claims of these much more reputed think tanks?? I will wait for some time for your explanation and then shall I revert your edits with undisputed and agreed reliable sources. 576: 706: 685: 2232:
true believer should regard the breaking of a tazia by force to be as virtuous an action as destroying idols. If he cannot break them himself, let him order others to do so. If this even be out of his power, let him at least detest and abhor them with his whole heart and soul’. Sayyid Ahmad himself is said, no doubt with considerable exaggeration, to have torn down thousands of imambaras, the building that house the taziyahs
607: 962: 1125: 407: 1104: 716: 386: 1347: 924: 1135: 903: 417: 1226: 1205: 1236: 1018: 2242:. Maulana Syed Baqir Dihlavi, the editor and owner of Dihli Urdu Akhbar, stopped them from doing so. After their death in Balakot in 1831 while being chased by Maharaja Rangit Singh's army, their legacy of sectarian terrorism continued. The incidents of Wahhabist Sunnis attacking Azadari gatherings were not uncommon. One such event is reported in Dehli Urdu Akhbar on 22 March 1840: 997: 231: 1028: 299: 289: 262: 1687:) in Washingtond DC, then show us your qualification or otherwise just learn to accept these as authoritive scholarly sources and go on. Your reverting or removing of sources and even your argument here may be considered disruptive because no Wikipedian in their right mind would reject such sources that you are trying to deny here. The article currently states 1670:
About Vali Nasr's 2006 estimate, I clearly stated "around 15%" and that does cover the 18% you mentioned. In the article I only mentioned him stating "about 30 million" Shias in Pakistan and since you noticed me forgetting to add the year "2006" then you should've just added it without critisizing me
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Every couple of months it's necessary to revert the page back to the version with highly reliable sources and the demographical figures based on those sources. As was discussed above, the Library of Congress is a priori reliable, and it should not be removed just because we disagree with the numbers
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Conversely, Pew, the CIA, the Library of Congress Country Studies, Oxford and similar high-profile sources arrive at consistently lower percentages, with the CIA at 20% at the top of the range and the LoC at 5% at the very bottom. We should not take unreliable sources over reliable ones. Thus I have
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Karbala incident is not much relevant to this portion along with mention of Syed Ahmad Barelvi and Shah Ismail Dehlavi's since the said sources give no mention of Syed Ahmad Barelvi's and Shah Ismail Dehlavi's getting influenced and taking up arms against Shias from that event. The only mention of
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The learned of all learned, the exponent of Divine law in eloquent and elegant tongue, the source of all guidance in the land of Hind and Bengal. Defender of religion against the menaces of the Shi’ahs and the disbelievers against all falsehood and vanity, deliverer if Islam (which) was covered by
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While Syed Ahmad’s military adventure failed costing him his life, his ideological legacy continued in the Deoband school of thought. Data shows that around 90 percent of religious terrorists in Pakistan are Deobandis by faith and many of them belong to the Pashtun belt (the area where Syed Ahmad
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A second group of Abuses Syed Ahmad held were those that originated from Shi’i influence. He particularly urged Muslims to give up the keeping of ta’ziyahs. The replicas of the tombs of the martyrs of Karbala taken in procession during the mourning ceremony of Muharram. Muhammad Isma’il wrote, ‘a
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In September 1789 William Jones told William Palmer, by then British representative at Sindhia's camp, that ‘his friend’ Tafazzul was planning an Arabic version of Newton. Reports of progress with the work were sent by Tafazzul to Anderson and by Burrow to Shore. Burrow proposed accompanying the
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There has been mixed reaction on both Library of Congress studies and Library of Congress I asked twice the opinion separately for both hence the authenticity of these is disputed whereas there are ample of other source cited hence it doesn't seem factual accuracy being disputed, PEW is taken as
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to make everyone recognize their number strength, but nothing like this took place among Shias in Pakistan even when they are constantly attacked. This is just an indication that they are not as many as the CIA claims and gives us reasons to believe that the Library of Congress is more realistic
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Some Sunnis had come to attack the gathering of Taziyah-dari in the bungalow of  Mrs. Amir Bahu Begum, the widow of Shams al-Din Khan. However, the magistrate came to know about it the night before. He met with the local police officer and ordered him to appoint sufficient force and stop the
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In the process of one of my regular sweeps for faked numbers I have also removed the claim that according to a Pew survey, 6% of the population are Shias. What Pew actually said was that 6% of the respondents were Shias. That's hardly the same; there may be various kinds of bias (e.g. uneven
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The pertinence of the quotation in relation to Shia Islam in the Indian subcontinent is unclear. Its tone, verbose and meandering, is unsuited to an encyclopedia. Readers won't know who William Palmer or Anderson were. If they're especially knowledgeable about the Mughal period, they might
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is an opinion piece on a blog. There's an explicit disclaimer that the opinions are the authors and don't represent LUBP. There is no indication of editorial oversight and fact-checking. And despite being cited for a total Shia population of 40 million, it in fact gives a number of 30
2565:(2015), as one example of "some of the pioneers of Islamic modernism in India had been Shias." If the intended point of including Tafuzzul in this article is that Shias in the Indian subcontinent have made contributions, surely that point could be made in just a sentence or two. 1969:
which in fact gives an estimate of 10%-15%, or 17-26 million people in 2009. There's no way of telling how ShiaNumbers.com manages to arrive at almost double the numbers and 20%-25% - it's not even consistent, giving the (equally implausible) estimate of 18%-25% in the fine
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translation with his own notes. He reported to the Asiatic Society in November 1790 that ‘the small time I had to spare ... has been employed in writing a comment on the works of Newton, and explaining them to a very ingenious native , who is translating them into Arabic.’’
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Establishing a consensus not to use that reference on the talk page can't hurt, if only to clearly establish that we did our part. If the IP editor doesn't join the discussion and does not present policy-based arguments for using that reference, that's not our fault.
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geographical distribution of respondents, or a focus on presumed Sunnis for a study meant to show Sunni attitudes about Shias, or possibly a reluctance to publicly identify as Shia). Pew actually estimates the number of Shias in Pakistan to be 10%-15%.
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are just 12% of total US population but some how they appear much more to the average people. Especially if you live in USA because you see huge number of African Americans in every state, city, county, township, etc. In 1995 they organzied the
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is undue in relation to this topic – Shia Islam in the Indian subcontinent. Tafazzul was a Shia, but his religion didn't influence what he was notable for – scientific writing and translation – and he didn't affect the course of the religion.
164: 1870:, hello, well, the IP simply doesn't care about all of that, he/she's namely here with one reason and that's to spread a certain agenda. It would explain his/her zealous efforts to keep that link here while removing all others. - 1595:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-rqm2oipIDMJ:www.pol.ed.ac.uk/__data/assets/word_doc/0007/15649/Saleem_Khan.doc+Pakistan+has+the+second+largest+Shia+population&cd=22&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=pk
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These attacks were carried out between 1818 and 1820. Rizvi has given more details about time, places and circumstances in which these attacks were carried out. In response to these attacks, some shias started to recite
1564:'s version of the article starts with "Approximately 30 percent of the Muslim population of Pakistan are Shia..." and attempts to use the following sources as references to back up the exaggerated number and his POV. 2372:
S. E. Hussain, "Terrorism in Pakistan: Incident patterns, terrorists’ characteristics, and the impact of terrorist arrests on terrorism". Unpublished PhD thesis. University of Pennsylvania, (2010). Available online:
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I don't see that there's been mixed reaction on the LOC sturdy, there is no reason to not consider the it reliable. Per the summation at top here, 5% to 20% is what should be represented per reliable sources.
1766:, keeping into account the authenticity of sources tags are not needed here all references are with perfect citation. Please feel free to discuss further rather than distorting and disturbing the article. - 1809:
I also see benefit (addressing some of the other content deletions) to contrasting Pakistan with the global population. Understanding where Pakistan stands in relation to the overall is useful information.
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conceivably know William Jones, Burrow, and Shore, but they aren't relevant to Shia Islam and aren't mentioned again in this article. The fact that Tafuzzul translated Newton's
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Gall, Timothy L. (ed). Worldmark Encyclopedia of Culture & Daily Life: Vol. 3 - Asia & Oceania. Cleveland, OH: Eastword Publications Development (1998); pg. 549
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This is an opportunity to discuss the "Mogul Empire" where regions such as India, Pakistan and Bangladesh were mostly identified with the "Shia Islam".
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Another puritanical movement was launched in Bengal between 1820 to 1840 by Haji Shari’atullah. The following statement is inscribed on his grave:
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is an opinion piece that takes the CIA World Factbook's numbers and extrapolates those. It cannot be more accurate than the World Factbook itself.
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S. A. A. Rizvi, "A Socio-Intellectual History of Isna Ashari Shi'is in India", Vol. 2, pp. 306 – 308, Mar'ifat Publishing House, Canberra (1986).
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Thus the content below this heading needs a major rephrasal and poorly sourced and synthesized content needs to be removed. Thanks and regards!
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has already been established in the previous paragraph. The quotation distracts from the rest of the section both visually and by its length.
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S. A. A. Rizvi, "A socio-intellectual History of Isna Ashari Shi'is in India", Vol. 2, p. 98, Mar'ifat Publishing House, Canberra (1986).
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it reports. Conversely, the source given for the "10%-25%" range was a Knowledge mirror giving a copy of another of our articles -
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SyedNaqvi90's version of the article is all his personal POVs and doesn't make sense to the average reader. For example it states
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A chronicle by an author named Bourienne mentioned that: during the age of Napoleon "religion in India would have been for Ali."
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Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project. Estimated percentage range of Shias by country can be downloaded from:
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Religion: The overwhelming majority of the population (96.3 percent) is Muslim, of whom approximately 95 percent are Sunni and
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Compiled by Khawaja Ahmad Farooqi, "Dihli Urdu Akhbar", 22 March 1940, Department of Urdu, Delhi University, (1972).
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Charles Allen, "God's Terrorists: The Wahhabi Cult and the Hidden Roots of Modern Jihad", pp. 63–64, Abacus, (2006).
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by using trusted academic and government sources. Below is a list of the sources and next to each is the estimate.
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agitators from reaching there. As a result of timely measures, it was reported that the event concluded peacefully
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http://www.islamicinsights.com/news/international-news/violence-against-pakistani-shias-continues-unnoticed.html
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The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
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B. Metcalf, "Islamic revival in British India: Deoband, 1860–1900", p. 58, Princeton University Press (1982).
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Understanding Islamic Fundamentalism: The Theological and Ideological Basis of Al-Qa'ida's Political Tactics
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darkness like the sun enveloped in clouds. Whose words in truthfulness were like mountains in the open field
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The said content is irrelevant, synthesized and questionable as to reliability and needs major rephrasal.
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also shows no indication of editorial oversight. Its sources include Knowledge itself, but also the
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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On 21 April 1802, the puritanical followers of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahab sacked the holy city of
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Sir no source show shia population as 5% and its very low as well because i belong to pakistan.
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S. A. A. Rizvi, "Shah Abd al-Aziz", pp. 538 – 539, Ma’rifat Publishing House, Canberra, (1982).
1914:. I previously asked him to join the discussion as well in my edit summary, but to no avail. - 1613:, which is rejected by all the top academic sources. Unless we find more stronger sources then 2300: 1982:
once again reverted. I'll also remove some redundancy that seems to have crept into the lead.
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and that is how Pew Research Center got their number. So, we can either use 5-20% or 10-15%.--
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I have removed the following quotation to reduce the overuse of quotations in the article:
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Now the IP created an account to reinstate the same edit, with the same edit summary
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11:37, 4 February 2023 (UTC)11:37, 4 February 2023 (UTC)11:37, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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Scholar of Islamic studies Andreas Rieck wrote one sentence about Tafazzul in his
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Estimated Percentage of Shias Among the Muslims of Subcontinent according to PEW
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https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2009/10/Shiarange.pdf
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The new sources still are unreliable, and worse, they're openly misquoted.
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I see no indication that shianumbers.com meets Knowledge's standards of
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about the numbers of Shias in Pakistan, which they claim at about 5%.--
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and should all be summarised. please re instate the disputed tag.
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I second what Huon said. This was an issue and I have fixed it--
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If anyone is familiar with the Demography of United States, the
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reliable. If you want to know further refer the discussion on
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I've added to the article the correct estimated percenage of
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The-Argus-10000-Hazara-slaves-Fri-20-Oct-1893-Pg5.jpg
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http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/5400.html
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It doesn't confirm all the information given by 2601:I would support condensing the section further. 2549:Removed quotation about Tafazzul Husain Kashmiri 1253:, which aims to improve Knowledge's coverage of 1045:, which aims to improve Knowledge's coverage of 44:for general discussion of the article's subject. 2618:The Asiatic Enlightenments of British Astronomy 2582: 1554:We must accept the outcome of these sources as 2576:of Sir Isaac Newton with remarkable ambition. 2489:Participate in the deletion discussion at the 2479:Tazia procession at Ashura in Chiniot city.jpg 2451:Participate in the deletion discussion at the 2373:http://repository.upenn.edu/edissertations/136 2210:Content relevance and reliability questionable 2182:Participate in the deletion discussion at the 2570: 185: 8: 1582:article which suggests Shias at around 15%) 2416: 2205: 1804:Per a request on reliability of sources... 1310: 1199: 1098: 991: 897: 780: 679: 570: 485: 380: 256: 2484:Tazia procession at Ashura in Chiniot.jpg 2766:B-Class India articles of Low-importance 2218:Beginning of organised physical violence 2080: 831:History of Bangladesh after independence 2666:Unknown-importance Shi'a Islam articles 2609: 2423:2409:4043:2C9F:F51D:C9BF:C051:A06E:7629 2273: 1312: 1201: 1100: 993: 899: 681: 572: 487: 382: 258: 228: 2656:High-importance Islam-related articles 2201:Poorly sourced and synthesized content 1781:Do not mislead it is clear - they are 2265:carried out his military endeavour). 1560:for the Shia population of Pakistan. 36:Shia Islam in the Indian subcontinent 7: 2534:) 11:37, 4 February 2023 (UTC)////// 2022:. Knowledge and its mirrors are not 1358:This article is within the scope of 1247:This article is within the scope of 1039:This article is within the scope of 929:This article is within the scope of 727:This article is within the scope of 624:, a project to maintain and expand 618:This article is within the scope of 517:This article is within the scope of 428:This article is within the scope of 310:This article is within the scope of 2716:Low-importance Afghanistan articles 2553:Having an entire sub-section about 1740:and if you disagree take it to the 1734:Library of Congress Country Studies 1434:Library of Congress Country Studies 247:It is of interest to the following 34:for discussing improvements to the 2731:Low-importance Bangladesh articles 2701:Low-importance South Asia articles 2299:. Oxford University Press. p. 74. 2075:Hereby the data from PEW webaite:- 854:back to FA as it was demoted (see 843:back to FA as it was demoted (see 784:WikiProject Bangladesh To-do list: 25: 2811:Low-importance Sri Lanka articles 2686:High-importance Pakistan articles 1578:(this link is again to the above 642:Knowledge:WikiProject Afghanistan 2781:Low-importance Maldives articles 2721:WikiProject Afghanistan articles 1643:and the renowned publication of 1484:people of Pakistan = around 15%. 1345: 1335: 1314: 1234: 1224: 1203: 1133: 1123: 1102: 1026: 1016: 995: 960: 922: 901: 747:Knowledge:WikiProject Bangladesh 714: 704: 683: 645:Template:WikiProject Afghanistan 605: 595: 574: 533:Knowledge:WikiProject South Asia 510: 489: 415: 405: 384: 297: 287: 260: 229: 56:Click here to start a new topic. 2736:WikiProject Bangladesh articles 2671:Shi'a Islam task force articles 1421:Percentage of Shias in Pakistan 1398:This article has been rated as 1378:Knowledge:WikiProject Sri Lanka 1293:This article has been rated as 1182:This article has been rated as 1081:This article has been rated as 974:This article has been rated as 767:This article has been rated as 750:Template:WikiProject Bangladesh 662:This article has been rated as 553:This article has been rated as 536:Template:WikiProject South Asia 468:This article has been rated as 350:This article has been rated as 2816:WikiProject Sri Lanka articles 2746:Low-importance Bhutan articles 2651:B-Class Islam-related articles 1744:, please revert pending this. 1381:Template:WikiProject Sri Lanka 1162:Knowledge:WikiProject Maldives 448:Knowledge:WikiProject Pakistan 1: 2796:Low-importance Nepal articles 2786:WikiProject Maldives articles 2761:Low-importance India articles 2691:WikiProject Pakistan articles 2637:15:29, 23 December 2023 (UTC) 2503:21:39, 29 December 2022 (UTC) 2036:20:02, 24 November 2016 (UTC) 2008:19:46, 12 December 2015 (UTC) 1831:01:30, 6 September 2010 (UTC) 1795:09:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC) 1776:08:12, 5 September 2010 (UTC) 1754:11:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC) 1729:19:41, 4 September 2010 (UTC) 1705:18:50, 4 September 2010 (UTC) 1665:07:58, 2 September 2010 (UTC) 1372:and see a list of open tasks. 1165:Template:WikiProject Maldives 1146:This article is supported by 943:and see a list of open tasks. 741:and see a list of open tasks. 451:Template:WikiProject Pakistan 442:and see a list of open tasks. 365:This article is supported by 324:and see a list of open tasks. 53:Put new text under old text. 2711:B-Class Afghanistan articles 2661:B-Class Shi'a Islam articles 2544:11:37, 4 February 2023 (UTC) 2196:16:52, 25 January 2020 (UTC) 949:Knowledge:WikiProject Bhutan 824:Climate change in Bangladesh 2751:WikiProject Bhutan articles 2726:B-Class Bangladesh articles 2696:B-Class South Asia articles 2394:and has language not up to 2153:10:44, 5 October 2019 (UTC) 1992:19:23, 7 October 2015 (UTC) 1948:17:49, 7 October 2015 (UTC) 1924:01:51, 7 October 2015 (UTC) 1899:17:17, 5 October 2015 (UTC) 1880:12:10, 5 October 2015 (UTC) 1861:20:18, 2 October 2015 (UTC) 1631:02:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC) 1273:Knowledge:WikiProject Nepal 1061:Knowledge:WikiProject India 952:Template:WikiProject Bhutan 330:Knowledge:WikiProject Islam 61:New to Knowledge? 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661: 590: 552: 505: 467: 400: 364: 349: 282: 255: 91:Be welcoming to newcomers 2406:13:39, 17 May 2020 (UTC) 2167:Ashura-Nowshera-1910.jpg 2005:User talk:119.158.10.163 826:, it needs a lot of work 2741:B-Class Bhutan articles 2041:Pew and 10 - 15 % Shias 1736:is on the face of it a 1605:All these are personal 621:WikiProject Afghanistan 2791:B-Class Nepal articles 2756:B-Class India articles 2591: 2590: 2446:South Asia 1758 AD.jpg 2293:Khatab, Sayed (2011). 730:WikiProject Bangladesh 520:WikiProject South Asia 336:Islam-related articles 237:This article is rated 86:avoid personal attacks 2563:The Shias of Pakistan 1497:U.S. State Department 1361:WikiProject Sri Lanka 111:Neutral point of view 2020:circular referencing 1490:(Pakistan Studies), 1149:WikiProject Maldives 648:Afghanistan articles 431:WikiProject Pakistan 116:No original research 2706:South Asia articles 2411:Nadir Shah was Shia 2083: 1967:Pew Research Center 1681:Pew Research Center 1677:Library of Congress 1653:-13: 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