1398:"In India, secularism came to be redefined as equal respect, not indifference, towards all religions, or what Vinoba Bhave, expounding Gandhi, called sarva dharma samabhava. Under Congress rule, this equal respect turned into appeasement of Muslim clergy, as in the Shah Bano case, or murderous rage against Sikhs, as in the riots after the assassination of Indira Gandhi. The Babri Masjid, too, was demolished when a Congress Prime Minister, Narasimha Rao, ruled India though the destruction was carried out by the Sangh Parivar. The Congress lost the trust of some Hindus and Muslims, not to mention the Sikhs, by its equivocations and mendacity. When the Babri Masjid fell, Muslims learned that the Congress could not be relied upon to defend their interests; this signaled, so to speak, the end of minoritarianism as the official policy of the state. In accepting BJP majoritarianism, I would suggest, that Indians came grudgingly to acknowledge that the best guarantee for pluralism in India was neither hyper-secularism that showed contempt to all religions or pseudo-secularism that allowed the cynical manipulation of religion for political ends, but an acknowledgement of critical I Iinduism as a source of plural values and ways of life."
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The state should not be for or against the religious faiths. Therefore no anti religion book, movie etc should be banned by the government because it is not the state's business to come out in the support of any religion. The state's role is to only ensure that the right to express religious views is upheld without threats of violence/fear by groups of opposing interests. Banning of books/movies by the state for fear of public violence can be resorted to but it would then imply an admission of failure of the civil machinery to maintain law and order and protect individuals and groups from expressing themselves - which is their right. A citizen of a secular state is as much within his rights to critisize any/all reigions as propagating the same. The state is no one to bat for the religious conservatives. In a secular state, the right to express/propagate religous views automatically includes right to criticise religious thought. (Blasphemy against any religion cannot be illegal in a true secular state).
1339:. Also, you're extremely confused if you think it's the blue states (majority Democrat states) insisting America is a Christian nation. The red states (majority Republican states) are more right wing, filled with more people who insist that America is a Christian nation, and are more likely to complain whenever someone tries to stop Christian prayers during gov't functions but still stop non-Christian ones. Blue states are more likely to either allow prayers from all religions, go with a non-denominational "moment of silence," or else discourage public prayer during gov't functions. The article is not ignoring an elephant in the room, it is simply
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1746:- This page is about a term, not about any criticism. If the OP wants to write about criticism of secularism (in India, perhaps), then they need to start with a section in the concerned main article. If it is accepted that there is a lot of content then it can be spun off from there. Please make sure to understand
1161:"The so-called Landeskirchen (regional churches) -- Lutheran and Reformed, or a union of the two -- raise almost all their income through the church tax. The Roman Catholics are also supported by state taxes. The government in effect passes the plate for the church and is paid by the church for its services."--
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per discussion consensus. The scope of this article is one thing, and perhaps it should be edited to better reflect that scope. And if another article should be made with the scope proposed by the nominator, that is also permissible. But moving this page does not accomplish any of these goals, nor is
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Sigh. I am not sure what that is supposed to imply, Baka, but I assume it was directed at me. Whatever. Nidhish, thank you for listening. I dont think that the incident can be reported on this page. It doesnt fit in with the rest of the examples, for one; all the others are about biased state policy.
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In my view, some information seems subjective. For example, the statement about Hindu religious songs/prayers being allowed in general schools is misleading. General schools do not have religious songs - the prayers are mostly based on (1) ethical poetry and do not refer to any god of any religion or
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You agree or don't agree it is not the concern of article. Agree. People have eyes to see. I'm astonished to see this article how it is compiled. I was doing research so I said so. The source clearly back the text. If it is not you can see whole articles on babri mosque and anti Sikh riots. There is
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The previous version described the term pseudo-secularism as if it was a listing of facts. However, it fails to take into consideration that the term is used as a political smear word in Indian politics. My wordings deal with how the term is used in the Indian context. The chapter could be expanded,
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States non involvement with religion (A reference to the dictionary for the exact meaning of the word 'secularism' may be essential if the reader is an Indian as the word is often misunderstood in India) to my mind would go hand in hand with the right of people to profess/propagate religous thought.
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He is clearly saying why clarification tag is removed. I have explained. Assume good faith. I amnot saying how many churches and mosques were demolished during partition. Or what the education minister was told on telling the pathetic condition of
Christians and Muslims by these pseudo secularists.
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That sound you hear is me not caring. The point is that there are arguments made on bith sides, and if you include one you have to include the other, made by about as many people. So the page should be kept free of, as I said, partisan wrangling. Finally, please note that my remarks about syntheses
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article, and needs to be rewritten and reorganised. There is enough content about criticism of Indian secularism to split off a whole article about it. There is useful content on the
Secularism in India article, although it would need to be rewritten. If such an article was written, it would cover
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This discussion is not being terribly productive, as
Greenbottle6 appears to be dodging the issue. The content is not supported by the source. Therefore, I have removed it once again. If a reliable source supporting it is found (and that is highly unlikely, considering the fact that the very term
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policy cited at you -- we only summarize text, we don't interpret it. Two well-educated native speakers have looked over the source and cannot see how it supports the text. It does not actually say "the INC's pseudo-secularism resulted in riots." It mentions how the riots lead to distrust of
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We have specifically pointed out incidents through which it is clearly inferrable that "The Hindu" acted in pseudo-secularist manner. Do you agree?? What i could collect from your comments is that you want a source which specifically says that the way in which "The Hindu" behaved is called
1393:{{cite book|author=Makarand R Paranjape | title=Altered Destinations: Self, Society, and Nation in India | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gslfcdHp0soC&pg=PA50 | accessdate=16 April 2013 | year=2009 | publisher=Anthem Press | isbn=978-1-84331-797-5 | page=50}}</ref: -->
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but didn't clarify or justify the removal. I then looked at the source, couldn't see how it backed the statement (which seems to be the reason for the clarification request) and removed the entire text, only to be reverted on, oddly, NPOV grounds. Here is the source:
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I dont want to say whether I think this instance is sufficient to say that the Hindu acted in a particular manner. It is true that I think you need a reference that states "many people frequently accuse newspapers in India, especially the Hindu, of being very
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1392:{{clarify|date=October 2014|reason=Unlike with the 1984 riots, the INC was not directly involved here, so what exactly does the author mean?}} as examples of the Indian National Congress practising pseudo-secularism."<ref name="Paranjape2009": -->
1517:. And the article certainly isn't about bias by the government. And quoting my comment about "assume good faith" doesn't deal with the fact that I didn't agree to anything like what you say I agreed to. I said that the source doesn't back the text.
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Hornplease, for what do you want a source?? Do you doubt that "The Hindu" backed
Hussain when he painted the goddesses nude?? Or do you think that this behavious is secualr and you want a source which says that this is the behavious which is
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Ok you agree that demolition of babri mosque is a clear proof of anti minority pseudo secularism and think that there should be a clarification tag you can add it. In my view keeping mosque demolished till now is clear pro minority bias by
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already redirects here. This content is therefore much better placed on an article that is explicitly about India, such as the title I have proposed. Another article could then be created at this title to cover global use of the term.
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Roughly half the US population insists the nation is a
Christian nation, founded on Christian values. And in these "blue states," where this opinion is in the majority, government assemblies are known to block non-Christian prayers.
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You can't just tell someone "Agree" -- you have to provide a reason. Whether or not others agree is the concern of the article. As Doug Weller has already pointed out, the source does not support the text. You apparently need the
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Nowhere does it suggest that practicing pseudo-secularism by the INC caused these events. It mentions "pseudo-secularism that allowed the cynical manipulation of religion for political ends" but doesn't directly accuse the INC.
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Nidhish, I am arguing that pseudosecularism is properly applied as a criticism to government policy, as it is everywhere on this page. Also, it just isnt cited or non-OR enough, as I also pointed out.
1857:: the article is about the pejorative term, not a body of criticism. I'm not sure that "criticism of secularism in India" would be a viable article in any case: "opposition to secularism" might be.
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to secularism. No individual or newspaper is similarly bound; there is no law stopping them from being hypocrites. So it isnt really that encyclopaedic; the article isnt a list of hypocrites.
912:, especially the synthesis section I referred you to. In any case, newspapers do not belong here - every single other example is of state policies. This isnt a generalised list of hypocrites.
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I do not see where Doug Weller suggested that. Please do not pretend that users or sources say things they did not actually say -- doing so makes it impossible to simultaneously assume both
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Not if you dont want a long disquisition on the dissimilarites between the cases. Best not to drag it in. If you keep this article free of partisan wrangling, that will be a job well done.
1513:, our policy states that the source must clearly back the text. It doesn't and you aren't arguing that it does. You are stating your opinion, and that doesn't belong in the article, see
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Can we have a contextual definition & link for "communal" in the section on India? I'm loath to attempt one, myself, but there needs to be some additional information here. --
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saying that it is a major problem that newpapers are pseudosecular, you cannot have it here. Putting two things together like was done earlier is a specific violation of
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Are you arguing that this behaviour is not Pseudo-secularist?? I dont see any other scenario in which you can say that this incident can not be reported on this page.--
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the
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essentially the same topic as this article, and it would be silly to have two separate articles. Thus I think it better that we undertake a merger at the same time.
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Ah but that was before the RSS Gujarat quote calling it pseudo-secular. Point C is verified as well from the RSS and from mainstream publications like the pioneer
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Germany is a highly irreligious country so you cant speak about Pseudo-Secularism in
Germany. The Majority of the People in Germany doesnt care about Religion.--
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The US is actual pseudo-secular because there are
Creationist Museums that teach that the world was created by god just like the bible tells it for example.--
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658:(kept it until pioneer article is found). Perhaps newspapers should be removed and title changed to "M.F. Hussain vis-avis Muhammad Cartoons" or something.
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The USA is either pseudo-secular or nominally secular. The latter means secular in name only. To me that is pretty much the definition of pseudo-secular.
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Ah yes
Khajuraho. The outside of the temple is actually a set of guidelines ("illustrated" if you get my drift) of what not to do. the inside sanctum is
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pseudo-secularism. (i.e. it is not enough to source 2+2 and equate it to 4. we will now have to find a source that says the complete equation 2+2=4.)--
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Is this term notable enough to warrant it's own article? If the
Elenjimittam article is the only source we have, I'd say this should be a section in
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Except that proving the Hindu backed up Hussain (which I'm looking for) while giving the documented reaction on the Moh'd cartoons would obviously
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Can you provide any sources suggesting it is identical to minoritarianism? The sources currently in the article discuss it as a pejorative term.
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I agree with the nominator. Besides most of the content in this page is about India so, it seems fine to me to move to the suggested title.
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and what not quoted in this context. I myself have no opinion. But does it belong on this page? It's clearly a synthesis that falls under
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Most of this article is OR based on someone's interpretation of the term, and I've deleted it. There are some decent sources here
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I also think you are missing the point that the article focuses only on governments. There is a reason for this. Governments are
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So hornplease, what kind of a source do you want. Where The Hindu says that it has behaved in a pseudo-secualrist manner. Gr8.
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Firstly, this article is about a term used in many countries, but the content is exclusively about India. Indeed, the page
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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So what are the two Christian groups? Lutheranism and Catholicism (e.g., from Bavaria)? Inquiring minds want to know.
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If you want to start an article on the Hussain controversy, go ahead. It might belong in the discussion there.
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that support the change you want to be made. It needs to be described as pseudo-secularism, otherwise it's
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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As Greenbottle6 has insisted that the text be kept until it's discussed here, I'm doing that now.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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while the cartoon merely insulted a dead person. The only diference was that Hindus reacted in a
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Turkey was actually before the takeover by Islamists in 2002 already at best semi-secular.--
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I want a source that calls the Hindu pseudo-secular. Otherwise it's, if nothing else, OR.
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2. Religion lessons are taught in the same sense as history lessons, they are objective.
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but the former version should not stay (especially the 'media' section is hilarious). --
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Will it be fine for you if we just report this incident and call it secular.
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You're absolutely correct in the dissimilarities. Mf Hussain insulted
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The Government of Tamil Nadu distributed free rice to Muslims during
539:- As close as I have come to backing nids assertion as of right now.
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It doesnt have citations as being discussed sufficiently elsewhere.
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3. Mosques are built by private foundations, not the state.
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article be split off into this one. Here is my reasoning.
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no need to cite sky is blue as per Knowledge guidelines.
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On 25 October 2021, it was proposed that this article be
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1. Theory of Evolution is of course taught in schools.
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secularism in general, whatever form it manifest as.
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Possibly. Others might have other views; I have heard
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It is very clear what I am saying. Unless you have a
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1277:and not a stand-alone article. See
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1913:to reactivate your request.
1901:has been answered. Set the
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627:No it wouldnt. Please read
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490:. The result of
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26:This article is
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1951:please provide
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1608:Minoritarianism
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1218:
1199:
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1113:pseudosecular".
1049:
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906:Reliable source
885:
870:like we did on
862:I guess us non
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533:Newspaper thing
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87:on Knowledge's
84:
63:broad consensus
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2028:
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2013:
2012:
2006:
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1978:
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1930:157.49.166.124
1915:
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1852:
1834:
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1824:
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1695:
1667:
1666:
1652:requested move
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531:
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516:Jana Gana Mana
506:
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492:the discussion
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468:
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452:Low-importance
448:
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439:
436:India articles
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390:
378:
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375:Low‑importance
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305:Low-importance
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228:Low‑importance
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192:Low-importance
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162:the discussion
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117:Low‑importance
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30:Indian English
24:
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2016:
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1989:
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1962:
1958:
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1931:
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1912:
1909:parameter to
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1612:Crashed greek
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1361:
1360:88.66.159.127
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1334:
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1327:
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1323:
1319:
1315:
1314:89.253.73.146
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1204:
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1042:as a whole.
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512:Vande Mataram
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25:
22:
18:
17:
1996:. Retrieved
1991:
1982:
1974:
1948:
1928:
1921:
1918:
1910:
1899:edit request
1875:
1854:
1842:TrangaBellam
1837:
1819:
1799:
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1770:
1764:
1743:
1730:YttriumShrew
1718:
1710:
1696:
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1649:
1605:
1545:Greenbottle6
1539:— Preceding
1535:
1509:Greenbottle6
1484:Greenbottle6
1478:— Preceding
1474:
1446:Greenbottle6
1429:Greenbottle6
1423:— Preceding
1404:
1400:
1397:
1376:
1357:
1308:— Preceding
1304:
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1103:
1062:
708:
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558:
536:
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495:
451:
421:project page
419:
409:
403:India portal
304:
272:
262:
191:
151:
95:WikiProjects
50:
46:
42:
38:
34:
27:
1723:is a clear
1662:move review
1571:Ian.thomson
1520:Doug Weller
1460:Ian.thomson
1421:government.
1408:Doug Weller
1345:Ian.thomson
1256:Doug Weller
1244:Sources, OR
85:Start-class
28:written in
2015:Categories
1975:References
1903:|answered=
1685:Shibboleth
1671:not moved.
1458:from you.
1456:competence
1269:Notability
1163:Editor2020
1122:Hornplease
1071:Hornplease
1040:Secularism
993:Hornplease
914:Hornplease
801:Hornplease
751:Hornplease
686:Hornplease
636:Hornplease
583:Hornplease
280:Philosophy
269:philosophy
219:Philosophy
1992:The Hindu
1949:Not done:
1860:Vanamonde
1752:Kautilya3
1628:Vanamonde
1586:Vanamonde
1384:sees the
743:Khajuraho
713:civilized
496:not moved
39:travelled
1998:19 April
1794:signed,
1566:WP:SYNTH
1553:contribs
1541:unsigned
1492:contribs
1480:unsigned
1437:contribs
1425:unsigned
1388:and the
1310:unsigned
1203:Lquilter
1153:Ggugvunt
1048:Bakatalk
967:Bakatalk
884:Bakatalk
778:Bakatalk
721:Bakatalk
664:Bakatalk
607:Bakatalk
545:Bakatalk
224:Religion
167:Politics
158:politics
114:Politics
47:analysed
1789:Support
1452:honesty
1331:, that
1147:Germany
1044:Bakaman
963:Bakaman
880:Bakaman
774:Bakaman
717:Bakaman
709:Deities
660:Bakaman
603:Bakaman
559:exactly
541:Bakaman
520:Rohitbd
454:on the
307:on the
194:on the
51:defence
1924:Ramzan
1855:Oppose
1838:Oppose
1814:Note:
1780:(talk)
1771:Tigger
1765:Oppose
1744:Oppose
1725:WP:POV
1279:WP:NEO
1216:Turkey
599:verify
91:scale.
43:centre
35:colour
1957:WP:OR
1907:|ans=
1897:This
1800:Iflaq
1750:. --
1139:Soman
1132:India
1118:bound
910:WP:OR
878:says.
747:WP:OR
629:WP:OR
484:moved
427:India
416:India
372:India
2000:2021
1965:talk
1934:talk
1864:Talk
1846:talk
1826:talk
1756:talk
1734:talk
1632:Talk
1616:talk
1590:talk
1575:talk
1549:talk
1524:talk
1488:talk
1476:Ld
1464:talk
1454:and
1433:talk
1412:talk
1364:talk
1349:talk
1318:talk
1260:talk
1235:talk
1207:talk
1185:talk
1167:talk
1089:nids
1014:nids
933:nids
864:Psec
860:Psec
856:Akon
826:nids
563:nids
494:was
1905:or
1775:Jay
1688:ink
1335:or
1288:Pat
1092:(♂)
1017:(♂)
936:(♂)
868:POV
829:(♂)
772:.
566:(♂)
514:or
486:to
446:Low
299:Low
186:Low
2017::
1990:.
1967:)
1959:.
1936:)
1911:no
1848:)
1821:VR
1758:)
1736:)
1700:→
1682:—
1654:.
1618:)
1592:)
1577:)
1555:)
1551:•
1494:)
1490:•
1466:)
1439:)
1435:•
1366:)
1351:)
1343:.
1320:)
1281:.
1262:)
1254:.
1237:)
1209:)
1187:)
1169:)
634:.
326:/
222::
49:,
45:,
41:,
37:,
2002:.
1963:(
1932:(
1866:)
1862:(
1844:(
1754:(
1732:(
1680:)
1676:(
1634:)
1630:(
1614:(
1588:(
1573:(
1547:(
1511::
1507:@
1486:(
1462:(
1448::
1444:@
1431:(
1362:(
1347:(
1316:(
1285:S
1258:(
1233:(
1205:(
1183:(
1165:(
498:.
458:.
424:.
311:.
198:.
97::
65:.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
