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interpretation, which has no support whatsoever anywhere else within any of the canonical or extracaonnonical gospels. The author(s) of this passage says, "Jesus was asked the question about paying taxes in hope that he would answer "yes" or "no"." This statement is patently false. The render-unto-Caesar incident is recorded in all three synoptic gospels, Matthew 22, Mark 12, and Luke 20. The purpose of asking Jesus whether or not it was lawful, according to God's law, to pay Caesar's tax (in
Matthew, Mark and Luke), and whether or not to pay the tax (in Mark only), is not stated in Matthew or Mark, perhaps by ellipsis because the purpose of the questions is evident from the context of all three gospels. However, it is stated unequivocally in the gospel of Luke, thus: "Keeping a close watch on him, they sent spies, who pretended to be sincere. They hoped to catch Jesus in something he said, so that they might hand him over to the power and authority of the governor." The governor was Pontius Pilate. As procurator or prefect, Pilate was responsible to Caesar (Rome) for the collection of Roman taxes in Judea. Asking the question whether or not to pay Caesar's tax for the stated intention of turning Jesus over to Pilate unquestionably proves that the questioners of Jesus anticipated one response and one only. They expected he would answer, "No, it is not lawful. Don't pay it!" They obviously knew he wouldn't endorse Caesar tax, for that answer would not give them cause to turn Jesus over to the authority of Pilate. The point I am making is further supported by the fact that when the religious authorities a few days later did in fact take Jesus by force and turn him over to Pilate for prosecution, one of the charges they made against him was, "'We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar...He stirs up the people all over Judea by his teaching. He started in Galilee(F) and has come all the way here.'" Furthermore, it is demeaning to the character of Jesus to suggest that he would avoid answering the question(s) in the affirmative for any reason whatsoever if he believed that Caesar's tax was in accord with God's law and should be paid. Jesus was a man of impeccable integrity. The author of this erroneous section says, "Answering "yes" would have left him open to the accusation that he was in opposition to Jewish resistance to the Roman occupation and therefore (given the assumption by the Jews that they still held privileged nation status with God at this time) against God, too." Throughout the gospels Jesus demonstrated time and again that he had no fear whatsoever of any of the many (false) accusations made against him by the chief priests, Pharisees or any others. He had previously and frequently bested these adversaries,' refuted their accusations, and left them with egg on their collective faces. He most certainly wouldn't avoid answering in the affirmative if that is what he believed. Everything else in this paragraph is negated by this false interpretation of what his enemies had in mind in asking his opinion on Caesar's tax. Signed, Ned Netterville.
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machines and systems that are created to control people are only going to change when we all render to him the prayers that allow God to truly take over all systems that we as humans create. For example there is a cross in the city that is on government property. There are millions of dollars used in defense of this cross but where is the conversion of heart that must do daily as
Christians and people of God. What good is a cross when we do not carry our own cross with love and sacrifice for others. Let the atheist and non-believers take down the cross when our duty is to pray for those that do not believe. We give to God those prayers and the immersion of that love will over flow and over come those that do not believe. We get so stubborn about small issues when the bigger issue is flying away in front of our eyes. Our house is burning and we are worried about our possesions. Let us see beyond the possesion and pray that our Lord gives us the strength to carry our cross in a loving and sacrificial way as he did. Jesus saw how miniscule that coin was and thought, "If they only know how small this coin is compared to what I have in store for them." Lets give those coins to Caesar because God is a treasure that has an infinite amount of more importance. Sometime we see our children drop a candy and they cry. In our minds we sympathize with them but we know we have much more to give them and in the long run that piece of candy means so little. In the eternal love of God though he has compassion for us and tries to explain how meanless Caesar's thing are. God I love you and thank you for your love and the things that belong to you.
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otherwise I would try adding it myself. It seems like it would fit with the content under the "Giving God the
Benefit of the Doubt" subheading. Although this view is hinted at within, or similar to, some of the other portions of the article, this specific verse and evidence in Psalms seems noteworthy and interesting to me. After a few minutes of searching I've found three sources that use the verse: two are small sites and don't seem widely known or reputable, but clearly support tax resistance. The other doesn't explicitly support the view that the tax shouldn't be payed, but it seems more reputable. I don't know what standards religious articles are held to for sources on opinions based off of religious texts like this, so I don't know if any would work very well. Here they are anyways,
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living in the way that Jesus prescribed there is no tribute to pay to Caesar or tax to resist. Those things only emerge to the extent one subscribes to Caesar, i.e. the state and its money. One should not participate, but to the extent one does participate then one should pay the tax as the expected costs of doing so. How could his answer have been any more clear? Likewise I think the most direct interpretation of the line is that he who would follow Jesus' way avoids this dilemma by being outside the state and not using its money. Since this seems the simplest possible interpretation, I wonder why it seems to be missing from those discussed on this page? And, in this interpretation the fact that Jesus does not have the coin is quite relevant.
1052:"Give Caesar what belongs to Caesar...etc." only appears to be ambiguous to those who don't know, as Jesus did, what belongs to God and what to Caesar. Scripture, which Jesus knew well, is not ambiguous: "The earth is the Lord's and everything in it..." (Psalm 24:1). That leaves nothing whatever to belong to and give back to Caesar, and nothing is unambiguously what Jesus meant Caesar should be given, both by those following him and others. Jesus died to save all mankind and would not abandon anyone to Caesar.
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matter what; while others, like the
Mennonites & Quakers, believe that Christians must carefully weigh conflicting obligations before voluntarily submitting to taxation. This article tries, in part, to show how different Christians and different denominations have reconciled their understanding of Christian duties about taxation with this particular biblical episode. Please refrain from mass-deletions like the ones you have recently made. -
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option, but only for the disabled not the suffering and poor communities. Food is a staple of life and a certain amount a week to sustain that life should be given. Housing and shelter of course should be free if obtained. The public sector such as the roads should be free until a new technology arrives. The pavement is a crude akward backwards step to the roman style roads.
1071:" is off the wall for this article and the only reference is an esoteric soliloquy on the web about monetary policy that has nothing to do with this article. The only connection is that the soliloquy uses the term "render unto Caesar" and references this article. Unless the author can defend the insertion of this non-germane paragraph, I will edit it to remove it entirely.
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borrow the greater we will be obligated to the present day "Caesars". So therefore money is an earthly creation and has no divine essence or power to prosper, only God is the true source of our prosperity and faith in God as our ultimate source of life, health and prosperity is the correct way. "Caeser" can have his own, back.
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Could we get this interpretation (that nothing is owed and that Christ may have been referencing scripture) in here? I'm absolutely uninformed on editing wiki articles and don't have the time to get up to speed, so I don't know if this view would or wouldn't be an appropriate addition to the article;
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I'm excluding small sects and cults from my methodology, because those groups are the most likely to literally become outlawed in the real world, outside small rural regions of the United States, which is the only place where their views are given de facto attention. Also, I would like to add that if
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Like I said, if the technology is there it should be free or really cheap. I find it interesting that africans care nothing about the roman way of life we live today because of there untouched culture and non-relation to slavic-european history. Why pay for the cow when you can just eat the beans.
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I have a few I noticed. I live with my mother because of the adam and eve situation the roman empire is giving to its citizens. The tax of utilities and bills. Basically, I am a nature born resident, whom rely on such instead of the nameless faces upon which I give monetary funds to. These aren't
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It doesn't seem to me that Jesus' answer was ambiguous regarding whether the tribute should be paid or the tax resisted. His point, it seems to me, is that the question they pose pose to him is predicated on misunderstanding. It is only a dilemma to those who are not (fully) following God. For those
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Third, college loans should be free or reduced if the degree is not used, food should not be free. Food should be payed for somehow but at an option for the poor. They should be able to buy easily manufactured foods with low monetary value eg a 10 cent can of soup if they need. Foodstamps are an
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Second, trash deposal services should not be free, it takes man-power to dispose of trash, but electricity should once again be free or a yearly small tax. Electricity takes small amounts of energy per household but can also be free if the right technology is available to its residents. Eg why pay
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It seems to me the "perhaps significant" line should be deleted. While it just might be perhaps significant, the fact that he asked for the coin was already mentioned and this line adds nothing to the article. If the comments suggestions were elaborated to say something like "Jesus carried no money"
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The part about resisting taxes is also fairly irrelevant to the article because the vast majority of
Christians throughout history have accepted not what their own consciences tell them, like what the libertarians do, but what the Church teaches. The global Church has always supported paying taxes,
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perspective, which is often hostile to taxes and government authority. However, it ought to mention some more disturbing things such as the use of the statement to justify many historically authoritarian regimes and high taxes in
Catholic Europe, such as Franco's Spain, the Bourbon monarchy or even
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First time looking at this page, but I don't agree that the denarius in question was "doubly" blasphemous. How does it qualify as a "graven image"? I thought graven images referred to objects intended to be worshipped, not just any old picture. Tiberius certainly did not expect anyone to worship
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so that they understand what needs to be sourced. Also, the page does not unfold in as logical a manner as one could hope. The editors need to put themselves in the position of a reader who is unfamiliar with the material. Finally, at times the page begins to takes on a POV and a tone of colloquial
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Yes, there are all sorts of problems with the section. There is only one reference, and that from 1839. Also, the text doesn't really match up with the heading. The bit about "in opposition to Jewish resistance to the Roman occupation and therefore against God, too" sounds like somebody's personal
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The most significant thing is that we have exactly the same situation today. The federal reserve is printing, or "counterfeiting" money without out any backing whatsoever and then loaning it to us with the requirement that we pay interest on it by means of our hard earnings. So the more money we
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Your methodology? Quakers and
Mennonites being small sects and cults unworthy of interest? Whatever. If your new page does end up just being a duplication of the bulk of another page then, yeah, it probably should be axed. I was hoping you were just planning to use that information to get you
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I edited a line that says "Jesus showed compassion for tax collectors as he did to other notorious sinners, such as prostitutes." If a wikipedia article said "prostitutes are notorious sinners" or just "prostitutes are sinners," I think that would qualify as non-neutral POV, and that is what this
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I'm not against quoting
Quakers and Mennonites per se, I'm just against presenting their views as if they were very important, extremely important. They are actually less than 1 % of all Christians, and we can only present their views after we take into account the other 99 % of Christians. The
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global Church," and various
Christian denominations have a variety of teachings about what constitutes a legitimate taxing authority, what taxes are legitimate, and when the obligation to pay a tax might be overridden by another obligation. Some, like the Mormons, tend to support tax-paying no
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The truth is that Jesus acknowledges the exsistance and uses of government on earth. As people of faith though our job is to give to God what is God's. We are the lambs of God and therefore we must render our prayers to him and let God convert our souls to him. We render ourselves to him. These
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I plan to delete the entire section headed "Doctrinal context," along with the sub-heading, "Further information: Pharisees and
Christianity." The information in the main paragraph is manifestly erroneous. By no means does the sole reference provided therein support the intendment of this
860:, then you should propose it for deletion, because it is simply intolerable to have the same exact text in two separate entries. If you don't want it deleted, then you should accept the principle that the text should not be at two places at the same time.
674:-um, true except jesus says when youre born again you are somehow not accepted to human ways, culture and civilization. You're you, belonging to this time, not some fake clone or imprint. That's soul.
1256:– Including the ellipses in the title doesn't make any more sense than including quotation marks in song titles, which of course we don't do. Other articles on phrases aren't tilted thus even when they
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First, why should I pay for technology that already exists. Eg plumbing and waterways. This should be free or have a very small tax yearly to support the technology. Water should be free basically.
1331:; I think most of the examples that don't use the ellipsis work as standalone phrases; this one does not. If the ellipses are a problem, maybe we should title this with the entire quotation.
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the Tsars of Russia. For example, the statement might be even quoted today in order to state that it is legimitate for Christians in minority situations to obey leaders that are thought to be
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Americans like to instigate things, except when you kill someone, you really do have a death mark on this life or the next regardless, even if its a bunch of ants there's no free ticket.
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Science vs Religion is perhaps the most significant meaning of this quote, and not mentioned at all on this Wiki page. Very important and potentially useful distinction. -Eric Higley
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sentence assumes. I changed "notorious sinners" to "vilified groups", which I think is less NNPOV and more accurate. Still, I'm not sure sentence adds anything at all to the article.
1343:. I can see why the ellipsis is there, but disagree that the quotation does not stand alone... purists in grammar may not like it, but using just this phrase is common enough.
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The section on "benefits if people had followed Jesus" on this question needs, AT LEAST, some citations and supporting evidence. It is widely wide in scope and presumptuous.
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in terms of tax resistance, because it is more than just that, it notably includes the concepts of civil allegiance, Church-State separation and political neutrality.
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The "truth" on Wiki needs some support more than just saying it is the truth. Where in t he gospels does Jesus acknowledge the uses of government?--Ned Netterville
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The fact that the charge went undisputed at Christ’s trial doesn't necessarily mean anything. The trial was full of false accusations that went unattested. -
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I have read commentators who made much of this detail, but don't know off-hand of any. Perhaps this could be marked with a {who} or {Fact} tag for now. -
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to the title, although many of us still have sufficient Sunday Schooling for it to look a bit truncated without this reference. No change of vote.
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for sourcing, among other things. Much of the text, including interpretations of the story and controversial claims, are unsourced and have no
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I could expand it, it would not really be very hard to go beyond Christian perspectives. My point though is that it is wrong that the phrase
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Since there has been no defense offered for including this off-the-wall paragraph, with fair warning given, I deleted this paragraph today.
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or something like that, there would be verifiability issues. If they remain un-elaborated, they certainly don't seem encyclopedic in style.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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is original research and the authors seems to be interpreting the New Testament. It needs to be sourced, and if necessary, attributed.
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for a computer without the right software? Technology causes many problems, when not available but is a source of free energy.
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at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
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It seems mostly to be trivia of the most trivial sort, and adds little or nothing that throws any light on the topic. —
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But that's just it... the quote does stand on its own. As a result the title, whether as is or as proposed, is both
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ADM, before you go deleting big hunks of the page wholesale, please discuss your proposed changes here. Your "
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It is perhaps significant that Jesus did not have such a coin with him but that one of his questioners did.
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I agree with the anonymous comment above, and have nominated this as a Good Article on their suggestion.
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It covers everything anyone who came to this article could hope to find. Someone should nominate it. ;)
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Maybe it was titled thus because the complete saying is "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's." —
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started on something more substantial. I wish you luck on that project and hope it turns out well.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2020:19-30&version=NIV;NASB;KJV;NKJV;ASV
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because that's the majority position, and that's why most people have continued to pay taxes.
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If you have any questions about this review, please leave a note on my talk page. Thanks.
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With fair warning, and no defense of the section being offered, I deleted this today.
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page is POV because it looks like a piece of unadulerated Quaker propaganda.
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Why is the translation of the line in Latin, when the original was in Greek?
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I came here to ask the same thing. The relevant Greek portion of 22:21 is
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I'm just curious why this exchange is being referred to as a parable?--
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Problems with monetary funding: Basically the qualms about cash flow
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Anyone else think the "In popular culture" section is unnecessary?
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Apodote oun ta Kaisaros Kaisari kai ta tou theou tôi theôi.
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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http://www.thinkingfaith.org/articles/20090804_1.htm
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really problems, just exagerated complaints really.
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of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Category:Political terminology of the United States
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548:Graven image?
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1371:recognisable
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981:
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925:— Preceding
921:
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833:
801:
797:
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733:
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683:— Preceding
679:
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555:Scrutchfield
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290:Bible portal
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207:Christianity
198:Christianity
191:
154:Christianity
135:WikiProjects
95:
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59:reassessment
57:
42:
41:
37:
1416:move review
1222:move review
1183:Agreed and
1039:98.237.4.41
1033:—Preceding
802:exclusively
650:—Preceding
623:evangelical
619:libertarian
593:—Preceding
491:GA criteria
452:—Preceding
373:John 12:4-6
54:renominated
1428:Categories
982:References
574:Alan Trick
535:Bless sins
436:Wasabe3543
101:Not listed
708:Roman Tax
628:dictators
1362:goethean
1276:Relisted
1179:Moorlock
1153:Moorlock
1124:Parable?
1035:unsigned
927:unsigned
839:Moorlock
783:Moorlock
697:contribs
685:unsigned
664:contribs
652:unsigned
595:unsigned
587:Benefits
529:Much of
511:Awadewit
476:Terraxos
466:contribs
454:unsigned
381:Tintazul
1387:Andrewa
1375:precise
1358:Comment
1345:Andrewa
1341:Support
1307:Support
1235:Jenks24
339:on the
234:on the
125:C-class
79:Process
1333:Powers
1329:Oppose
1316:Anselm
1282:Tyrol5
953:Anselm
900:Caesar
656:LOKOIN
418:Latin?
131:scale.
82:Result
40:was a
1231:moved
1189:Daask
312:Bible
303:Bible
259:Bible
1391:talk
1349:talk
1320:talk
1297:talk
1239:talk
1193:talk
1185:done
1173:Done
1157:talk
1134:talk
1115:talk
1091:talk
1077:talk
1058:talk
1043:talk
972:talk
957:talk
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908:talk
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660:talk
636:talk
621:and
603:talk
578:talk
559:talk
539:talk
516:talk
499:WP:V
462:talk
409:talk
395:talk
331:High
226:High
76:Date
1408:.
1293:BDD
1258:are
904:ADM
862:ADM
834:The
816:ADM
632:ADM
1430::
1393:)
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1312:St
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1274:--
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513:|
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464:•
434:)—
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1389:(
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1177:@
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407:(
405:—
393:(
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238:.
137::
20:)
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