980:. The "un" series (in "normal" pinyin) is as follow: dun, tun, nun, lun, gun, kun, hun, zun, cun, sun, zhun, chun, shun, run and wen (uen). All these syllables are "short" forms, in "full" they would be duen, tuen...shuen, ruen and uen. The "e" is left out of all these except for "uen". In the case of "uen" the "e" is retained but the "u" is replaced by "w". These "short" forms are spelling conventions, used to mark syllable boundaries in multi-syllable words. For example "lunwen" would be "luenuen" in "full" form, it is clear what syllables make up "lunwen" but not "luenuen". Although not explicitly stated, it appears that the "e" is retained in "uen" (and also in "uei") so that the "u-" syllables: ua, uo, uei, uan, uen, uang and ueng, where the "u" is changed to "w" when they stand alone by themselves, remain consistent, ie the change from "u" to "w" is regular.
135:
learn). "Republic of China on Taiwan" is not an uncommon description, and was used by the Lee Teng-hui administration to describe ROC/Taiwan (it was used on UN membership resolutions). The
Republic of China is the political entity; Taiwan is where the government is based and what it controls. Alternatively, we could use "Republic of China (Taiwan)", which is used by the current Chen Shui-bian administration to denote that the ROC is not merely
569:
simply glides but now have a v sound, although not necessarily consistently (I guess you could say the glide w and the v-w are not in contrastive distribution, and it takes some effort for me to hear the difference even in english sometimes). I will say though that in newscaster mandarin -- the stuff we hear on tv -- wen still rhymes with ren, even if the w is a soft glide and not a v.
1437:
erected by the national government. Legacy systems still in view include modified Wade-Giles and MPS II. Taichung County, on the other hand, DOES use
Tongyong pinyin and signs in the county using this system are widespread. As such, I will make the appropriate edit. If there are any questions, please drop me a note.
707:
The article currently states that "The exceptional spelling of "wun" does not fit in with the "ben", "pen", "men", "fen" series which rhyme with 文 in
Standard Mandarin, whether spoken in Taiwan or the mainland." Is this actually a commonly used argument against Tongyong Pinyin and can we see a source
1436:
Unfortunately (as far as I am concerned), Taichung City has been using Hanyu Pinyin since 2004 and nearly all signs erected since then by the municipal government have used Hanyu Pinyin. The municipal government has NEVER used
Tongyong and the only Tongyong signs you will find in Taichung City were
1064:
If the "e" is retained in "un" series, then you would have ambiguity, "luen" could be "luen" (one syllable) or "lu en" (two syllable) due to the practice of writing multi-syllabic words as one unit in Hanyu pinyin. The "e" is dropped to simplify writing and I suspect also to reduced the need for the
624:
I am a native
Taiwanese speaker and I'm 30 years old (I think that may matter). I also spent my teenage years abroad. I don't really understand pinyin but I think I know what you're referring to. The Mainlanders pronounce 風 differently from Taiwanese. I was taught 風 as Fong. But (I think) everywhere
498:
As for "wen" being spelled "wun", it's consistent when you consider it a separate final from "en"—For instance, it's already spelled "un" in "gun", "lun", "cun", "kun" and so on. I've heard it pronounced as "un" in that context as well. Rather than criticise
Tongyong Pinyin for this feature, I would
414:
Well even if you think that Zhuyin "works better for pronounciation", despite the fact that they are mutually interchangable, using 4 different methods in one City does at least *not* simplify it for anybody. Its true that most
Taiwanese don't care which system to use, hence why not just use what so
396:
Anonymous: There is no standard in Taiwan, they use some combination of
Tongyong, Wade-Giles, and Hanyu everywhere. For Taiwanese, it doesn't matter because they don't use any of it, they use 注音符號...it doesn't really, actually, make sense to standardize romanization in Taiwan when 注音符號 works so much
1094:
Tonyong pinyin is basically the same as Hanyu, except that it doesn’t use Hanyu’s c ch q z zh etc, so I think it’s probable that
Tonyong droping the e is simply following Hanyu pinyin. IMO the people who designed Tongyong wants it to be as similar to Hanyu as possible, as you have suggested, to be
238:
I'm not sure about sending people to a lecuture on the politics when theyre interested in the country/government. Rather, we should discuss at the beginning of the and articles the political controversy/status. I thought this was already done, but let me know if it still needs improvement. I plan
1409:
Seems like most
Taiwanese cities here have Tongyong pinyin listed first. I think having both is reasonable but with the current official status of Hanyu pinyin in Taiwan and in my opinion the quite slight possibility that Tongyong pinyin will be used again officially in the future maybe change the
43:
Inaccuracy about "Natural Pinyin" (自然拼音) is removed. "Natural Pinyin" is derived from "Natural Input System" (自然輸入法), an input system that existed in Taiwan long before the arrival of Tongyong Pinyin. The two matters are unrelated. That is, the expression "Natural" (自然) in "Natural Tongyong Pinyin
1030:
Ah well, it's a relief that we've found some common ground. I think you made a good point, too—it would probably make sense to include the e sound in the spelling somehow, as is done in those systems that use wen - luen - kuen and so on. It might be that Tongyong Pinyin discards this principle in
568:
It may not be unique to Taiwan. I speak Beijing dialect, which I'll admit differs somewhat from even the Mainland's idea of Standard Mandarin, but is nonetheless relatively prestigious. We pronounce wen something like ven, though -- many of the w- syllables in pinyin (but not all) are no longer
34:
This is not an issue as clear cut as having unificationists support Hanyu Pinyin and separatists favor Tongyong Pinyin. There are other reasons to oppose both or support both. It should be noted that part of the criticism w/ Tongyong is that it's confusing to have different sounds be assigned the
134:
The phrase "Republic of China on Taiwan" was already ubiquitous when I stumbled upon this site. I added it so people wouldnt get confused and think that this is the official romanization of the PRC (or rather, it would make those clueless people more confused so they would click on the links to
542:
quoted below, "un" is a shortened version of "wen", and thus "gun", "lun" and "cun" are, at least formally, shorthand for "guen", "luen" and "cuen". As you and LDHan both mentioned, they may not sound much alike, but perhaps they did historically? I don't think "yan" and "tian" rhyme that well
488:
Maybe it's simply the case that it's spelled "ong" wherever it doesn't create a conflict with an already existing syllable. For instance, if one had spelled "teng" as "tong", one would have merged it with the already existing syllable "tong", but there are no existing syllables read as "bong",
1346:
In the comparison chart, when showing the tone marks for ma, the neutal tone uses 媽媽 as an example, which is confusing, since it's only the second 'ma' that's netural, but the romanized and zhuyin examples have just one 'ma'. I think the example should be changed to 嗎 for simplicity sake.
473:
n". This seems an inconsistency with the way Standard Mandarin is pronounced in Taiwan. Those with heavy Taiwanese accents (as opposed to Standard Mandarin) would say "wun" or even "?wun" (? being a glottal stop), but the same people would say "hun" instead of "fen".
625:
else the correct pronunciation is regarded as eng. But I think there is a trend to pronounce eng as ong. I pronounce 猛吃 as meng and 孟 as meng but most Taiwanese don't, even though I have heard people acknowledge that as less than perfect pronounciation. - huggie
686:
Tongyong vs. Hanyu Pinyin: Beijing/Beijing, Kongzih/Kongzi, Sianggang/Xianggang, Taiwan/Taiwan, Gongfu/Gongfu, Renminbi/Renminbi, Yijing/Yijing. In this small set of examples, most are the same. With a larger set of examples, you'll see significant differences.
590:
To the original point, I have heard taiwanese friends pronounce 猛吃 as mong chi, where as we would say meng chi. So perhaps Tongyong pinyin simply is a better approximation of the pronunciation of mandarin on taiwan, but it is worth noting that this is
516:
Unfortunately, gun, lun, cun, and kun all rhyme with each other, but not with wen, which at least in the dialect I speak, rhymes with fen and ren. For the record, I do not speak some wacky dialect, either -- no offense to those that do.
675:
I'd like some examples of famous words rendered in Tongyong and Hanyu for comparison: Things like Beijing, Confucius, Hong-kong, Taiwan, kungfu, renminbi, I Ching,... so that we can check whether how its use could affect to non-Chinese.
165:
Change "government of the Republic of China on Taiwan" to "government of Taiwan", since they have the same meaning (unless I still don't understand, which is quite possible) and talk about the political intricacies on the
1261:
It may better reflect the Zhuyin use, but this particular Zhuyin use is one of Zhuyin's most glaring inconsistencies, since there is no ㄩ /ü/ sound in "yong" or "xiong"; instead, the sound in question is an ㄧ /j/ sound.
708:
fo it? As far as I can see, it's Tongyong Pinyin that's being consistent ("wun", "lun", "kun", ) and Hanyu Pinyin that's being inconsistent ("wen", "lun", "kun"). Thus this argument could actually be used as an argument
446:
No one has objected to the above comment for more than a month. For this reason, I have changed the portion of the article dealing with "eng." In case anyone has an objection, however, I include the original text below:
1389:
The article doesn't say anything whether diacritic placement is same as in Hanyu Pinyin or different. If it's same, it should be mentioned; if it's different, it should be explained. Does anyone know the rules?
1031:
order to reduce the number of characters per syllable, or simply to be more compatible with Hanyu Pinyin. Whatever the reason, it certainly seems like Tonyong Pinyin is more like Hanyu than its predecessor...
325:
with names of islands (e.g. "King Kong was discovered on Skull Island"). The phrase has been used for decades to avoid implying that Taiwan is a country. The word "in" would imply that Taiwan is a country.
1327:, when it is well known that political reasons motivated the government not to adopt the established, but Communist-created, system. This is perhaps best addressed by the original author of the article. --
929:
I'd agree that ben and wen are phonetically very similar, but if anything, that would mean that "wun"-"kun"-"lun" ought to be spelled "wen"-"kuen"-"luen", rather than "wen"-"kun"-"lun" as in Hanyu Pinyin.
435:
Dajia hao! Hi everyone, my name is Vijay. I just wanted to point out a certain inconsistency on this page. The article claims that "meng" is changed to "mong," but none of the links seem to support this
393:
It seems in Taipei that Han Yu Pin Yin is becoming popular since the street signs, most buses and mrt now use it. Han Yu Pin Yin is the international standard, Taiwan should use it too. -Anonymous
295:
said it, so of course its holy writ to the current administration and all their supporters! I can't believe that guy was allowed to graduate from Cornel with grammar like that! --
31:"However, this difference is enough to make anti-unificationists satisfied (and declare it "Natural Pinyin" (自然拼音)), and yet make those Hanyu Pinyin supporters dissatisfied. "
143:
Taiwan. There are basically a bunch of political intricacies involved here; the main purpose is to denote that "Taiwan" is somehow involved here for those without a clue. --
1323:
There are NPOV issues in the origins section of this article. Specifically, the motivation for creating the system is being asserted to be one of technical deficiencies in
272:, and clicking a link which says Taiwan and ending up at Republic of China might make me think that they are exactly the same entity. Or at least confuse me a bit :)
955:
I'm sorry, I have a made whole load of mistakes, my apologies! I'm ashamed to have jumped in without checking the facts first. Please disregard my previous comments!
54:
I've also deleted "mainly with a few consonants changed" because about half of differently spelled syllables have vowel changes exclusively or as well. --
1095:
compatible with Hanyu because Hanyu is practically universal outside Taiwan, but at the same time distinct from Hanyu for political and cultural reasons.
469:
with -ong when they all have the same rhyme (whether the speaker rhymes them with "teng" or not). I wonder the same about "ben" "pen" "men" "fen" and "w
48:"Around 90% of the Tongyong Pinyin syllables are spelled identically to those of Mainland China's Hanyu Pinyin, mainly with a few consonants changed."
192:
243:(and rename it) to a discussion on the various monkiers and official designations for the ROC/Taiwan, but Im not sure how it would play into this.
661:
But as I said before (at the beginning of this discussion), there is no evidence (not yet, anyway) that TP uses "mong" in the first place! :-P --
725:
Pinyin "wen" is a spelling convention, it is actually "uen", the "u" is replaced by "w" to mark syllable boundaries in multi-syllable words.
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is responsible for the ] on ] text I first stumbled on. Since then, I've also used ] (Taiwan) and ]. Are those similarly confusing? --
1140:(except for speakers with a heavy, non-standard Taiwan Guoyu accent - the same accent in which "fa" would be pronounced as "hua").
51:
I've corrected this to read "Around 80 percent"; Tongyong and Hanyu use the same spellings for 83 out of 410 Mandarin syllables.
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nor the island. But on the other hand, everyones doing it, so Taiwan can be a "conventional short form" for the ROC.
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Is that not also the case with "lun" and "kun", that they're actually shorthand for l+wen and k+wen? In the
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Pinyin "wen" (文) does not rhyme with pinyin "lun", "kun" etc, it rhymes with pinyin "pen", "men", "fen" etc.
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You are correct, the "en" series: ben, fen, etc does not rhyme with the "un" series which includes "wen".
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44:
Input Method" (自然通用拼音輸入法) was there long before. It refers to an input method, not a romanization scheme.
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Perhaps it's unique to Taiwan? At any rate, the way it's presented in my textbook, and also in the book
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Agreed, especially since the second "ma" in "mama" is pronounced with its full tone value in Taiwan.
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It means the Republic of China is based on the island of Taiwan. Does that make sense, if not, ask
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1194:--representing the same sound: /j/. Hanyu Pinyin does not suffer from this inconsistency, using
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Taiwan" meant to mean? This is a grammatical mistake, but I don't know what to correct it to.
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Yin Binyong 尹斌庸 and Mary Felley (1990). Chinese Romanization. Pronunciation and Orthography
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70:(通用拼音, literally "Universal/General Usage Sound-combining") is the current official
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123:. This is not a good thing I'm mistakening other people's edits with mine.... : -->
71:
264:] (Taiwan) looks OK to me. ] looks utterly confusing: there are already articles
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which compares different romanization systems. The last column is Hanyu Pinyin:
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adopted by the national government (although not all local governments) of the
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and link to that. Then confused people could click on that for an explanation.
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Tongyong Pinyin as well as against. I hope someone can elaborate on this.
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confusing for people who don't know about these things. I suggest either
787:
I'm sorry, but I cannot get that explanation to fit. Look at this from
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system, one can even see "lun" spelled as "luen" and "kun" as "kuen".
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Since tone is marked differently in Hanyu and tongyong pinyin,
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Yes you are right that "lun" and "kun" are also "short" forms,
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The first option would be more easily understandable, I feel.
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765:
I think the "e" in "üen" (yun) and "uen" (wen) are different.
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anything resembling standard pronunciation on the mainland.
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that this is the case and a slight snub for supporters of
1228:. There is no /o/ in Mandarin apart from /e/; the letter
367:
Catch my drift? You only use "on" for things called Blah
356:
Madagascar instead. So I smuggled my way down and stayed
450:"eng becomes ong after b-, p-, m-, f-, w- (蹦、碰、孟、奉、瓮)"--
976:
All the following is about pinyin (Hanyu), taken from
1212:
It better reflects the analysis that zhuyin uses, ㄧㄤ
789:
http://www.pinyin.info/romanization/compare/mps2.html
763:
I don't have my reference books to hand to check but
360:
Sardinia for a couple of days. Eventually I ended up
35:
same letter. This is not a simple political issue. --
156:
OK, I think I begin to understand now. However it's
283:I've been telling everyone that "Republic of China
465:of the labial initials are followed with -eng and
1303:Never mind. The article was wrong. Will correct.
1186:? After all, here we have two different letters--
1405:Change order of Hanyu pinyin and Tongyong pinyin
291:) but nooooo, nobody will listen to me because
207:. It's the position of moderate supporters of
195:and should be discussed there. IMO, it's not
8:
1288:syllables are written differently, correct?
1170:Can anyone here explain this inconsistency:
193:Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions (Chinese)
321:grammatical because in English we can use
215:. Technically speaking, it's like saying
1065:apostrophe (used to separate syllables).
352:Britain, and thought, wow, I wish I was
895:Also note how ben doesn't contain an
761:but they stand for "lüen" and "küen".
7:
287:Taiwan" is a grammatical error (see
1410:order in Taiwan related articles?
191:This would require a change in the
120:Wait, no, Jiang wrote that himself
24:
499:applaud it for being consistent.
489:"pong", "mong", "fong" or "wong".
109:, I copied this style off him. --
873:ㄎㄨㄣ k`un kuen kwen kun kun
348:Yep, so the other day I landed
1379:04:36, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
1272:04:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
876:ㄌㄨㄣ lun luen lwun lun lun
317:"Republic of China on Taiwan"
1:
1447:08:22, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
1220:If Hanyu did this, they'd be
1150:04:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
697:04:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
425:12:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
415:many foreigners use anyways?
371:, or for very small rocks. --
1426:09:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
1232:is used either for /ue/ (in
1207:08:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
740:Mandarin Phonetic Symbols II
381:22:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
910:ㄅㄣ pen ben ben ben ben
870:ㄨㄣ wen wen wen wun wen
479:04:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
331:04:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
175:Republic of China on Taiwan
1462:
1400:18:19, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
1298:09:37, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
1253:09:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
397:better for pronunciation.
1363:19:39, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
1100:14:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
1036:13:59, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
1006:02:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
935:20:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
771:18:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
747:17:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
730:17:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
717:16:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
681:09:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
666:04:58, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
600:01:31, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
548:00:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
522:00:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
504:16:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
455:22:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
441:23:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
408:02:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
305:00:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
260:14:50, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
239:to expand the article on
152:11:43, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
101:10:02, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
39:22:22, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)
1337:00:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
1313:18:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
645:04:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
276:18:42, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
231:are neither part of the
186:12:34, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
128:11:27, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
113:11:23, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
907:sound like the above:
461:I'm curious as to why
289:Talk:Republic of China
1432:Taichung and Tongyong
819:Note how we can find
800:ㄣ en en en en en
797:ㄩ yü yu yu yu yu
794:ㄨ wu wu wu wu wu
406:comment was added at
213:Chinese reunification
1342:ma with neutral tone
18:Talk:Tongyong Pinyin
1385:Tone mark placement
209:Taiwan independence
1236:and, in Tongyong,
1128:In my experience,
543:either, really...
431:Meng becomes mong?
1416:comment added by
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266:Republic of China
201:Republic of China
80:Republic of China
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284:
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199:to say that
173:Make a page
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72:romanization
67:
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1439:ludahai 魯大海
1412:—Preceding
1349:—Preceding
1240:or in this
1136:, not with
678:84.20.17.84
627:—Preceding
402:—Preceding
843:, but not
107:User:Jiang
1392:Cababunga
1234:song, wo,
1218:(ü-e-ng).
364:Tasmania.
93:What is "
62:On Taiwan
56:Taibeiren
1414:unsigned
1351:unsigned
1214:(i-a-ng)
831:in both
671:Examples
663:Kuaichik
641:contribs
629:unsigned
436:claim.--
247:I think
233:province
124:_< --
27:Untitled
1216:vs. ㄩㄥ
404:undated
74:of the
1371:Bubbha
1264:Bubbha
1224:&
1204:Bubbha
633:Huggie
476:Bubbha
467:others
457:Vijay
443:Vijay
373:Sumple
369:Island
328:Bubbha
297:Sumple
270:Taiwan
225:Quemoy
223:since
205:Taiwan
168:Taiwan
126:Menchi
111:Menchi
84:Taiwan
1305:kwami
1290:kwami
1245:kwami
1242:yong.
1238:wong)
1226:xuong
1222:xiang
1200:xiong
1196:xiang
1184:syong
1180:siong
1176:syong
1172:siang
1097:LDHan
1033:Rōnin
1003:LDHan
932:Rōnin
768:LDHan
744:Rōnin
727:LDHan
714:Rōnin
545:Rōnin
540:LDHan
501:Rōnin
399:Kerui
274:Lupin
184:Lupin
170:page.
99:Lupin
37:Jiang
16:<
1443:talk
1422:talk
1396:talk
1375:talk
1359:talk
1333:Talk
1319:NPOV
1309:talk
1294:talk
1268:talk
1249:talk
1198:and
1190:and
1174:vs.
1146:talk
839:and
827:and
693:talk
637:talk
463:some
421:talk
377:Talk
301:Talk
268:and
197:NPOV
158:very
88:2000
82:(on
1286:all
1138:lun
1134:ben
1130:wen
847:or
841:lun
837:kun
833:wen
829:wen
825:uen
710:for
703:Wun
593:not
253:Jia
145:Jia
1445:)
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899:/
849:yu
835:,
823:,
821:ㄨㄣ
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643:)
639:•
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362:on
358:on
354:on
350:on
323:on
319:is
303:)
285:on
257:ng
149:ng
141:is
137:on
95:on
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845:ㄩ
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474:{
471:u
419:(
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326:{
299:(
227:/
219:=
203:=
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