2540:. Since I am the primary contributor to this article, my rationale for using dmy, besides finding it to be approved according to the MOS, was who I thought the intended readers would be. Articles on Eisenhower and Patton are going to get a lot of general readership. Middleton, on the other hand, is a lesser known general, and my thinking when I wrote the material, rightly or wrongly, was that a bulk of the readers of this article would be military people like myself. As I wrote the various sections, I envisioned them being read by student officers at the Command and General Staff School, or maybe even the Army War College. Again, I may be way out in left field, but to my thinking dmy is not only approved by the MOS, but it would be something very suitable and fitting to the perceived readership. So what about the other articles; should they be changed? Heck no. Leave them be. Let a consensus emerge as they move along. And if all else fails, remember to
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the tone that only people in the military can understand. And to answer
Sarnold's comment that I only changed a few dates on that article and left the rest alone. I didn't see those until after I made the edit and had planned on making those changes at a near later time, like within the next few hours, but now we are discussing, so I won't make any changes until later, or in which time those changes are made by another. I'm sure SArnold has only the best interests in mind, so I'm not questioning his good faith, but he does have a history of using DMY dates in other articles on People with Strong national ties to the US as well. It's his preferred method, but we should really follow the guideline. FYI, I will keep my communications on this thread from now on, so as to attempt to keep the entire conversation in one place.--
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1514:** I would much prefer to leave this section the way it is. When discussing family backgrounds, most articles begin with the subject, then mention parents, and then possibly grandparents and prominent relatives. I've just extended this line of thinking back a few more generations to show the family's connection with the nation as a whole, and to highlight some of the military service of Middleton's forebears. If this were a genealogical account about the Middleton family, then it would begin with the earliest known ancestor and move forward chronologically. The focus here, however, is Troy Middleton, so I feel it is appropriate to begin with him, and work back to his earliest known ancestor.
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at least bring that issue up, the next time a biography of a US military person gets nominated. I also believe that these articles are not for the military reader, but are meant for the general reader. We shouldn't get too technical with some of the jargon and in this case the dates. We should use the common date format in the country represented. In the case of the United States thats "MDY". The military has its own reasons for using that date format, which as I mentioned before, has been modified on these articles. Therese no logical need to use that same date format here on
Knowledge.--
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encyclopedia article. In some of the later sections, World War II in particular, the man seems to disappear for a paragraph at a time, or at least stray into someone else's biography for a sentence or two. I would recommend a pretty thorough rewrite with the mind to remove as much of the material that isn't directly relevant to
Middleton himself as possible.
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Thats sounds like a reasonable compromise, but I have to decline on my part, despite the fact that I have no plans to change the dates on "military articles", anytime in the near future. I don't think that I want to officially bind my hands on this and besides I intend to begin invoking change across
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Is there evidence, other than this article, that that biographies do this as well? This is a biography about a person who served in the military, not an article about the US military. If we went around and changed every articles dates, for every person who served in the military, we would quite a few
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For
Middleton, 1958 was his best year as president of the university. This is the year that his long-desired library opened on campus, and also the year that Louisiana State University at New Orleans began its first session. In addition, this is the year the LSU football team had an undefeated season
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Suggesting a compromise: Joj, if you don't plan to wander through articles changing date formats, if you're only interested in the date format in this particular article, then maybe we could just ask
Sarnold if they'd be willing to change the date format on this article? We've had plenty of American
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Ohio State
University, we both use an iPhone, and we both like history. (Yes I looked at your user page). I now realize however, that I am going to have to invoke change from within. You mentioned earlier that those articles achieved FA without anyone commenting on the dates. I will make sure that I
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Price is the one definitive source on
Middleton. Almost every website refers to Price, who was the head of the journalism dept. at LSU, and who met with Middleton every week for three years to capture his story. I've tried to use something from every source I have available (Eisenhower, Patton and
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These sentences make sense to me. He had his sergeant therapist--end of thought. Next thought--he's selecting a staff for his new corps, and decides to keep the original staff that is already in place, with one exception -- for his aide he wants his old LSU friend
Hornbeak who had been with him in
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Eisenhower had spent three years in Panama as an aide to a very wise general, Fox Conner from
Mississippi. Connor knew that the Treaty of Versailles ensured there would be another war, and that the terms of the treaty were already being ignored by Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Eisenhower reasoned that
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I made a comment there. And as far as I can tell, this is an biography and biographies usually do not use the military date format. In fact I would argue that no military article should use the military date format. These articles are written for the general reader and as such should be written in
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Oh, by the way, there's a nice quote from Hugh M. Cole's 'The
Ardennes: The Battle of the Bulge', 50th Anniversary Edition, p.55 that someone might want to use as an intro quote: "General Middleton himself had a fine combat record reaching from World War I through Sicily, Normandy, and Brittany.
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I'm sorry, I thought we were trying to do our best work here. I guess I'm just a "perfectionist". John McCain is not notable for being a military officer, he's notable for being a politician, hence why his article uses MDY. Articles on modern American military topics (whether biographies or not)
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does point to month/day for US subjects, it also notes that "Sometimes the customary format differs from the usual national one: for example, articles on the modern US military use day before month, in accordance with military usage." This seems a fairly strong case for this to apply, given the
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Having spent the previous ten years in the various Army schools, it was time for Major Middleton to have another assignment with the troops if he wanted to keep his career viable for advancement. His request to return. Suggest - Having spent the previous ten years in various Army schools, Major
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This is a very informative and interesting article, someone has obviously put a lot of effort into it. However, the article seems to stray from the subject of Troy Middleton the man to history of the events that surrounded him to a much greater extent than necessary, or desirable, for an
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Yes, best work. We can agree on that. I'll tell you a few things that I think we can agree on, and have in common, so that you will know that I am not your enemy, but just another editor interpreting guidelines the best I can. We both served in the military, we both think that its
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ENGVAR is about spelling variations, not dates. Although modern military uses a form of the "DMY" format (actually would be 19 AUG 12, not 19 August 2012), there is no logical reason to use that format as the articles are meant for the general reader and not military
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Does anyone have any other photos of Middleton? The current photo in the article makes him look like an alien of sorts. I like using this photo in the article, because it was taken during the Battle of the Bulge, but his infobox could use something a little more
2461:, and these are not the only examples. Not your "featured articles", but these articles are not written for perfectionists, they are written for the general reader. And if we want to get technical on the dates, military dates are written like this:
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And I am telling you that this is widespread practice. These articles were thoroughly vetted through MILHIST ACR and FAC reviews; if the date system was wrong, someone would have commented on it. They did not, and these are not the only examples.
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General practice on modern US military articles is that dates should be DMY. Whether this is a good or bad practice should not be debated on individual articles. If you want to change this practice, have the discussion on the MoS page.
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few others) but there really isn't a lot compared to the complete story that Price has assembled. Without Price, the article would only be a handful of paragraphs long, and would have to consist largely of primary source documents.
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issue. The style adopted by the first editor (or possibly major contributor, if different) should be respected and changes should not be made from one date format to another without prior discussion and the gaining of consensus.
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I'm beginning the process of expanding this article and have done this with some family background and references. It would be great if others would like to expand his military career. If not, I'll eventually get to
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Let me provide a little more insight on this particular article. JOJ has noted that most of my articles use dmy, which is correct, and I'm willing to debate this issue as I am preparing to do in another forum at
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the entire scope of these articles from within, as there is no clear and encyclopedic need for this date format at all. Even other paper and online encyclopedias don't use the "military date" such as the British
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Having been involved in military education for the past nine years, Major Middleton's next assignment would make it an even ten. Suggest - you remove this sentence as it does not add anything of value to the
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years Middleton would play a lot of football, which sport was strongly endorsed by the Army. Suggest - years Middleton played a lot of football, a sport which was strongly endorsed by the Army.
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Like I said before, I'm sure there would be a few instances of using the incorrect date format. These are biographies about the persons life, and not military articles. Not the same thing.--
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Just curious why this article has not been edited to reflect that the lsu BOS has voted unanimously to strip Middleton's name from the library? Should this not be added to this article?
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This huge logistical undertaking was an experience that would serve Middleton well at another time in another war. Suggest - you remove this sentence as it is not needed.
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I'm happy with all of the changes/suggestion you have made so its good to go for GA in my eyes. Also nice job with the lead it looks very nice. Passed. Good job Sarn.
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While in Japan and China Middleton could see that events were unfolding that would ultimately lead to war in this part of the world. Suggest - you remove this sentence
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I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow you to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns.
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Sometimes yes. Yet a part of the guideline not practiced on biographies. Unless you can cite one, which of course there has to be at least one other not following
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should use DMY. This is widespread, longstanding practice. Again, if you think this is a problem, you need to do it at the MoS, not at individual articles.
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The commission disapproved of a number of pet political projects that were poor uses of the state's money. Suggest - Where they the governers pet projects?
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Hello again; what I quoted came from here, and I copied and pasted the quote, so I don't think any of the words fell off or were altered in the process:
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this was no time for an officer with combat experience to be getting out of the Army. Suggest - you reword this completely as it is not very encyclopedic
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Anyway, seems like I may have to work from the inside to get this fixed because there is an obvious problem with how this process has been flowing.--
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military bios go through Milhist's A-class with either date format, and generally, we leave the preference of the primary editor(s) intact. - Dank (
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and won the national championship. Suggest - You look over this paragraph as it is not needed for this section, whether reword it or remove it
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This article is ridiculous. I don't think we've had articles this detailed for US presidents, let alone segregationist LSU presidents...
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except that for an aide he would like his old LSU friend, Mack Hornbeak. Suggest - Do you mean the Sergeant who massaged him or Hornbeak?
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I'd certainly agree it's not 100% clear cut, although which ever way around, it should certainly be consistent throughout the article.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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And under the military date logic, quite a few other "featured articles" would also be written with military dates as well.
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Middleton never did learn of Bradley's reaction to Patton's method of "staying in place. Suggest - you remove this sentence
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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Overall good job with the article, you are a bit reliant on Price for information but that can sometimes not be helped.
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Deliberate and calm but tenacious, he was regarded by Bradley and Patton as one of the best tacticians in the US Army."
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last major engagement in this war for Middleton. Suggest - last major engagement of the First World War for Middleton.
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There was also a point in time during World War II. Suggest - do you sources say which point during World War II?
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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him he had better remove some of the bogus red crosses. Suggest - him to remove some of the bogus red crosses
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Fair enough. That was a Good Faith Cut and Paste and I will strike the portion about it on the other page.--
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751:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
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Troy Middleton was the middle of nine children. Suggest - do you sources say which number he was eg. 4/5/6?
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https://web.archive.org/web/20121025054522/http://www.msstate.edu/web/maps/historic/tour.php?building=0005
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To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant
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If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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Lead needs to be bigger as in its current state it is not big enough to summarize such a large article.
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before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
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Though Middleton was not told a thing about it. Suggest - Though Middleton was not informed of this
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Suggest you reorder the Ancestry section as it jumps from the 20th century to the 17th century.
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He also sent a personal note to Middleton, shown here. Suggest - you remove this sentence
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corps was pulled out of Third Army. Suggest - corps was pulled out of the Third Army
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I'm not able to find this reference. Go ahead and make the change when you find it.
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eliciting another reaction from Patton. Suggest - was this reaction good or bad?
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that he really needed Middleton back. Suggest - that he needed Middleton back
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This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image
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concerned about Patton's big mouth. Suggest - concerned about Patton's ego
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point he fired many rounds from a new. Suggest - point he fired from a new
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preppie year. Suggest - you reword preppie as it doesnt sound brilliant
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they were greeted by a sunburnt couple. Suggest - they were greeted by
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No, the source only says that it happened, but not when it happened
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bridge in a different war. Suggest - bridge in the Second World War
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7th Regiment had served a. Suggest - 7th Regiment had served in a
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Knowledge files with no non-free use rationale as of 13 April 2012
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File:Eisenhower.Dwight.preWWII.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion
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http://www.msstate.edu/web/maps/historic/tour.php?building=0005
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Sicily and Salerno. I'm not sure what to change, if anything
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the legislature had given. Suggest - Which legislature, the
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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If the image has already been deleted you may want to try
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articles using this date format, which would be wrong.--
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on Knowledge. Please visit the project page to join the
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I will also keep the remainder of the discussion here.
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Nevertheless, Patton. Suggest - Following this Patton
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His brilliant leadership. Who says it was brilliant?
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1534:** reworded as fifth of nine children
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2851:GA-Class biography articles
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2089:reworded for better meaning
50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
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2734:(last update: 5 June 2024)
2670:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
2629:Off topic? or over weight?
1175:Talk:Troy H. Middleton/GA1
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939:, and see the project's
518:United States of America
2841:Knowledge good articles
2666:External links modified
2606:Encyclopedia Britannica
2391:Norman Schwarzkopf, Jr.
1225:reasonably well written
874:World War II task force
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2705:After February 2018
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2808:— Preceding
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253:May 13, 2012
218:
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19:This is the
2470:John Mccain
1769:Late career
1555:preparatory
1171:transcluded
1045:Don't panic
999:flattering.
723:World War I
469:Mississippi
148:free images
31:not a forum
2835:Categories
2766:Report bug
1267:verifiable
1124:Authorship
1110:GA toolbox
937:discussion
206:under the
2749:this tool
2742:this tool
2561:WP:ENGVAR
2546:Sarnold17
2491:Parsecboy
2463:12 OCT 89
2357:Parsecboy
2329:Parsecboy
2288:Parsecboy
2258:Sarnold17
1764:paragraph
1424:Pass/Fail
1305:(focused)
1183:Reviewer:
1147:Templates
1138:Reviewing
1103:GA Review
1001:Sarnold17
981:Sarnold17
711:Biography
465:Louisiana
382:Biography
318:Biography
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2822:contribs
2814:Jmkstrat
2810:unsigned
2784:unsigned
2755:Cheers.—
2229:Hchc2009
2201:Hchc2009
2183:Hchc2009
2151:Hchc2009
2140:Dates...
2126:Thurgate
2111:Thurgate
1442:Comments
1196:contribs
1186:Thurgate
1152:Criteria
1057:non-free
933:colleges
323:Military
289:GA-class
220:reassess
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2679:my edit
2566:Mjroots
1418:Overall
581:on the
243:Process
154:WP refs
142:scholar
2323:, and
1375:images
1350:stable
1348:It is
1326:policy
1286:It is
1260:It is
1223:It is
1212:review
994:Photos
974:Family
931:, and
547:Alerts
295:scale.
265:Listed
246:Result
126:Google
2652:Atani
2636:Atani
1231:prose
1214:(see
1173:from
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2818:talk
2792:talk
2656:talk
2640:talk
2570:talk
2550:talk
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2361:talk
2333:talk
2292:talk
2262:talk
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2205:talk
2197:here
2187:talk
2155:talk
2130:talk
2115:talk
2078:Done
2051:Done
2032:Done
2012:Done
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1941:Done
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1587:Done
1572:Done
1546:Done
1526:Done
1485:Done
1459:Done
1447:Lead
1264:and
1216:here
1190:talk
1090:talk
1005:talk
985:talk
371:and
240:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
2723:RfC
2693:to
2611:JOJ
2582:JOJ
2512:JOJ
2506:THE
2478:JOJ
2417:,
2413:,
2344:JOJ
2305:JOJ
2274:JOJ
2217:JOJ
2171:JOJ
2168:.--
1242:MoS
979:it.
573:Mid
176:TWL
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