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2. Ethnologue lists isiCamtho as having second-language speakers only. Assuming this is correct and taking the whole sociolinguistic situations of its speakers into accout, isiCamtho cannot be considered a creole and is therefore a pidgin. (See for example John HOLM: Introduction to
Pidgins and
678:"A mixed language differs from a pidgin in that its speakers are fluent, even native, speakers of the languages involved in the mixture whereas a pidgin develops when groups of people with no knowledge of each other's languages come into contact and have need of a basic communication system"
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That new link to an entry on "fly", which redirects to
Ethnologue, is dodgey. The corresponding Ethnologue page says that Tsotsitaal is Afrikaans-based, which it isn't. And the Ethnologue link at the bottom of the page says it's Zulu-based, which is closer to the truth. How can it be both?
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This article is very confusing. It says that
Tsotsitaal and Iscamtho have two different origins in one place but in another says that Tsotsitaal was originally known as Iscamtho. Iscamtho is redirected to Tsotsitaal and the info box says Tsotsitaal use died out in the 1980s.
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I suggest a) removing the term "patois" and replacing it by "language" and b) removing the term "creole" from the second sentence and rephrasing the sentence. If there are no objections, I will edit the article to that effect.
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mixed language, it had an
Afrikaans base. I saw an interview with Miriam Makeba (or maybe another singer of the same era) talking about Sophiatown culture of the 1950s where she spoke of "fly-taal".
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Also, this article ignores an extremely important point: the fact that
Tsotsitaal is not an independent language but is rather used within the context of other languages (either a mixture of
692:
It's a perculiar slang spoken by people who speak many languages, but are not perfectly fluent in all of them. I'm not sure what that makes it, but I don't really care for these labels.
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between 3 or more languages? With the choice of languages in the mix depending on the speaker's preference/fluency in each? (Ordinarily code-switching involves only 2 languages.)
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Camtho is evidently Zulu- (or at least Nguni-) based, while
Tsotsitaal is Afrikaans-based. So yes, they should be separate articles. I don't know anything about them, though. —
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I propose that an
Iscamtho article be created and that this one have the Iscamtho sections be removed. Tsotsitaal is apparently a dead language and Iscamtho is a growing one.
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I am under the impression that it is spoken as a first language for many. I am surprised to hear that
Ethnologue says this isn't the case. They may very well be right. --
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1. the term "patois". This term is generally avoided, except for situations where the speakers of the language themselves chose to use it themselves (as in
Jamaica).
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The word is used in
Sesotho slang, not in the standard language itself. I can't tell you exactly where it comes from, though. Is someone willing to change the text?
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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I'm South African, and I have never heard of anybody speaking it (or claiming to speak it) as a
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Eg the Tsotsitaal spoken by S'bu on the weekly game show "Friends like these" on
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So yes, this article does actually need quite a bit of work.
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Ethnologue categorizes isiCamtho not as a pidgin but as a
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When was the last time ethnologue got anything right?
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803:07:14, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
765:21:00, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
741:00:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
726:songs is the second variety.
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290:Knowledge:WikiProject Africa
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848:13:26, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
788:17:18, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
644:Fly (or Flaai) was the old
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50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
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827:13:19, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
666:Pidgin or mixed language?
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568:15:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
540:Excellent. Thank you.--
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