Talk:Ukraine/Archive 3

1668:

talking commonality rather than correctness. As for what the country was (or is) called, no matter what its full name was, the usage of "the" I am talking about is with the word "Ukraine", not with "UkrSSR" or "UNR". "The" was used with "Ukraine" predominantly, now the situation is changing and the usage without the definitive article is becoming more common. This does not render the other usage "incorrect". And especially the UA government or a Knowledge user andrewuoft asserting something about English does not make anything "incorrect". Ukrainian governemnt (or any other government for that matter) has no authority over the rules of the English language. --

1145:

unofficially always has been). So, I am removing the highly questionable statement and its reference. I would furthermore suggest that everyone refrain from even debating this asinine topic as it is not worth the trouble. Certain countries' names can take the article — or not, if you prefer — and there really is no definitive authority in the English language for deciding these things. If there were, we wouldn't have differing Commonwealth and US spellings, for instance. Besides, reference to authority is a logical fallacy, anyway, the fact that WP thrives on it notwithstanding. Live long and prosper.

1306:

such judgment either. We simply mention that the "the" usage is gradually falling out but continues to be used. That Ukrainian authorities consider such usage incorrect should be referenced, if mentioned, but this is not an ultimate truth wrt to the "correctness" of English usage as the UA authorities are not entitles to regulate the English language. They are not entitled to regulate the Ukrainian language even, although the latter, unlike English, does have the regulating body. Such body, however, is not the Ukrainian government but the proper branch of the

1327:"The Ukraine". For those of us who have mastered the English language we should realize having "the" there in the title is incorrect usage just like there is no "The Canada", "The India", although "The United States of America" is correct but not "The America". Is there an authority on the matter? Yes, proper English tells us what should be given the title "the" in usage. If you were to start saying 'The Cuba', would you tell people that that's the way you say it and it's correct? I apologize I am unaware of proper Knowledge notation, from 1809:, shows exactly that. That the usage without the definitive article is becoming more common than the usage with the article. LN is even better in this respect because it allows to restrict search to a specific range of dates, say for 1998, 1998,..., 2005, 2006 and 2007. These searches allow to establish the relative commonality. These are facts and this is all that has to be stated. Your (or my) opinion on what is correct does not belong to the article. Stick to facts please and keep your POV out of this. -- 3407:

author(s) of the article to ridicule Ukrainians for their research on early inhabitants of their terrains. Yes, such research has not always been done on the professional level and has not always operated with credible facts. But it has nothing to do with the main article about a large European country. The author(s): move these lines to some other linked-in article, if you are such stong proponent(s) of pre-Christian diet (who knows what it was made of). Best of luck.

31: 2082:

convince us it's fact. The fact that those grammar rules were dismissed because Ukraine wasn't explicitly mentioned (along with the hundreds of other countries) really signals a problem with the ability of some people to use the English language properly (are you arguing the name Ukraine is plural or indicates a group of states, islands, etc.?). Since this entry is written in English there is some cause for concern. I apologize

1648:

current form does not as required by the RULES OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE! It is the absolute and final authority in the matter. The style guides reflect this so hopefully some media would write their articles properly, but not all publications are of the same quality. Are those authors you linked to incorrect in their writings? Yes! The clearest evidence is how any Ukrainian government website refers to itself as.

857:(Subdivisions) - Quick overview of the administrative subdivisions of the country. Name the section after the first level of subdivisions (e.g. provinces, states, departments, etc.) and give the English name. Also include overseas possessions. Link to "(subdivisions) of X". This section could also include an overview map of the country. The CIA World Factbook Maps could be used here, but other sources are available. 3771: 3733: 3601: 3587: 3518: 3747: 3702: 3678: 3651: 3615: 3532: 2042:. It also appeared as if CNN money uses "the Ukraine", but it really does not. The article is a press release, and mixes correct English language usage with incorrect. It was not a CNN Money authored article. CNN Money is only a platform, and that does not make the content representative of correct English (even though CNN, just like BBC, can usually be counted on that criteria).-- 543:

was Rus’ with a capital city of Kyiv (also known by a distorted name Kiev). At least these two corrections: Rus’, not the Kievan Rus’ and Kyiv, not Kiev, in the Knowledge article about Ukraine have to be made now. Obviously, the distorted names the Kievan Rus’ and Kiev have to be mentioned in brief explanation, if any, as a historical ineptitude. More corrections are necessary. smk

1501:

English. Please review the English-language Ukrainian press going back several decades to confirm this for yourself. Once the significance of the "the" was understood, it was distinctly not used. Note, however, that some were forced by their editors to use the article, in scholarly journals, periodicals, and the like, when the editor was not Ukrainian and imposed "standard usage".

3641: 1886:

usage is a fact. What's correct and what's not is your own interpretation of "English grammar". This discussion should not be presented in terms of "correct" vs "incorrect" because but "more common" vs "less common". This is exactly what is done in the current version. Please try to concentrate on content writing, like adding referenced material to articles instead. --

1683:

opinion, they are all cited by the rules of the English language which is quite straight forward but you fail to grasp (I assume your English is not very good). You on the other hand only provide your opinion backed up with a few erroneous examples, with no clear definition on why you are incorrect with the exception of your assertion lacking any real proof.

1089:, it would need to be shown that virtually all relevant authorities on English usage agreed on this point (which I very much doubt). Finally, I suspect that many (maybe most) English-speaking Ukrainians dislike the usage with the definite article. Words to that effect could perhaps be added, although, as with all Knowledge content it should be verifiable. 730:

all. The reference is not reliable, as is a very basic usage of The, and nothing to do with Geography. And the issue here is English language and usage, not etymology surely? (Incidently, I don't see why Ukrainian people mind, it's not degrading in any way. On the contrary, an archaic naming form is the proof of a very long and important history...

324:"The Ukrainian SSR was enlarged westward," it says. YES, but this was further genocide and mayhem against free non-Russian Europeans who were not exactly overjoyed at "Ukraine's expansion" in reality Russia's expansion of its sphere of oppression. Do Ukrainians today see that expansion as their expansion, or just the expansion of their oppressor? 2109:"the" in front of Ukraine or not. We do though, and so do the editors at the leading publishing institutions. They, as we know from experience, do not use "the" before "Ukraine". Why? I would venture to suggest that it is because those editors follow the rules of English grammar (and sometimes custom if there are no rules for a specific case). 3136:, we don't see the Spanish spelling in the article's lead, do we? This is of no benefit to anglophone users. This is not the Russian wikipedia. This is the English wikipedia. Having Russian spelling in the lead has absolutely no benefit to the English speaking users of ENGLISH wikipedia. If there are no objections, I will remove it. 1489:

alone, with Ukraine magically and suddenly appearing on the scene sometime between 1600 and 1850, depending on whom one reads. No explanation is ever offered for this occurrence. The reality is that the area had always been populated by the same folk, albeit with various migrations of various other peoples in and out at different times.

1441:

in English. For completeness, I'll note that diaspora Ukrainians themselves used "HA" (= Eng. "on", literally or approximately) with Ukraine until recently, when a large influx of Ukrainians from all of Ukraine, not just western Ukraine (Halychyna/Galicia) revealed that the use of "HA" was a localism (or at least it is now).

1843:

stop referring to my argument as my opinion. I, unlike many others who contributed to this discussion did not post any opinion on the matter (and I challenge you to point it out), rather just referenced English grammar. There is quite the difference, and none of my arguments have yet to be disproven.

2503:

square of Kiev, and supported the dismissal of parliament, with 20,000 supporting Yanukovych's plan to keep the parliament together. On April 3, 2007, President Yushchenko signed the bill into existence. Two hours later on Kiev's Maidan, it was announced to the crowds that Parliament no longer existed.

2686:

As I see it, the user attempts to bring original research into the article. He/she is comparing Ukrainian service and agriculture sectors of economy with those of Russia and USA. Why should we compare with these two particular countries (among 190+ world countries)? Why should we compare it at all in

2585:

The government follows a policy of Ukrainization—the increase of Ukrainian language, generally at the expense of Russian which was still the dominant language at the official level in parts of Ukraine. This is slowly taking the form of use of Ukrainian in all spheres that are under government control

2576:

The government follows a policy of Ukrainization—the increase of Ukrainian language, generally at the expense of Russian. This takes the form of use of Ukrainian in various spheres that are under government control, such as schools, government offices, and some media. This is even done in areas which

1718:

You speak of these facts, yet you haven't provided them - where is your cited information? This all your POV and opinion until you can prove otherwise. Also why do you assume Knowledge users cannot be professional writers (although I think you mean journalists here)? As well those professionals do

1440:

The use or non-use of "the" has nothing at all to do with Ukrainian grammar; still less Russian grammar. Nor should it. It's an issue of English grammar. The issue of the correct Russian preposition to use (as asserted by user Glensky8665, above) has no relevance to the need or absence for an article

1420:

The rules on the use of "the" in English are anything BUT simple, as any native English speaker who has attempted to explain to a native speaker of any Slavic language would know. As a speaker of both languages, I have tried to explain this to native Ukrainian speakers and have been astonished at the

1406:

Then they would have came from the Central Rada, the Hetmanate, the Directorate, the Ukrainian People's Republic or the West Ukrainian People's Republic. Either way it's deprecated usage that originally contained "the". Regardless people usually refer to it in its present form (much like Beijing is

1026:

Rarelibra, please note that your suggested change is opposed by several editors who reverted you and supported only by some trollish user whose only contribution has been so far the inflammatory talk page entries. Your trying to persist with it via a revert war in unproductive, please discuss and try

605:

However, calling people with whom you disagree Neanderthals (or xenophobes, for that matter) or assuming their motives is bias, to put it mildly. The Economist style guide is more impressive to me than the article by that linguist/historian/anthropologist, but it's still not the ultimate authority on

278:

In 2004, Victor Yanukovich, then Prime Minister, was declared the winner of the presidential elections, which had been rigged, as many observers agreed. The results caused a public outcry in support of the opposition candidate, Victor Yuschenko, who challenged the results and lead the peaceful Orange

275:

I'm sorry. I actually don't fully understand what it was all about, and am amused by the fact that so many people think that they do. However, all of that is irrelevant here. What you wrote is literally incorrect, regardless of political sympathies and views on the Orange Revolution. I'm changing the

2098:

Irpen, I agree that Knowledge users should not engage in original research and pose as grammar judges. However, if their claims are based on authoritative secondary sources, and not their mere opinion, it is a different story. I do recognize that some mainstream sources use the definitive article,

2086:

if you are offended by that but the integrity of the article is at stake, also I will try and not write so hastily in the discussion area. Despite what some non-native English speakers might think, the English language is not based on precedent and actually does follow rules. The "correctness" of

1908:

As we can see the article is required, as it is not in Ukraine (and the Knowledge page reflects that). Please provide me with your proof, I would be more than delighted to read it. Furthermore I merely referenced correct English grammar, even though I have posted it already a few times I will do it

1885:

would also be incorrect. Your "English grammar" never mentions Ukraine by name. If you want "actual proof" in terms of analysis of the common usage in the media year by year (I have premium access to Lexis Nexis), I can provide you with such. I assure you that you won't like the results. The English

1740:

Where is my cited information? Check the combination "The Ukraine" at any media indexing sites. Google News is one. I am not inserting my "POV and opinion" at all. In fact, I have no opinion on which one is correct. You do and you are trying to insert it into an article. I simply want the article to

1507:

Note that "the Gabon" is an exception. In this case, the addition of the "the" was requested by the country itself. However, in insisting on this, they are making the mistake of projecting or forcing French grammar onto English. In French, of course, an article is used with every country name, so it

1123:

I don't know what other "authoritarian" sources would convince everyone what the proper usage would be, but let me know and I will go and find it. Otherwise please refrain from using the defense "There is no higher source I won't accept" or the even more ridiculous "I should be able to call it what

2458:

If people think that way, feel free to revert the link, no problem. I precisely found it interesting because shows average people and not "VIP" and may be is closer to the impression you would get being there. The view of some 13 y.o. from his garden could be ineresting too. ;-) Feel free to revert

2070:

non-usage of "the" (I usually ask native speakers to copyedit my text when I am writing something RL important.) Why do they do it? Because traditionally Ukraine was used with "the". How else would you like to put it? We are not talking "correctness". We are talking the custom. The long-established

2062:

Now, to answer your point, I fully agree that the usage without "the" is now becoming more common. That CNN piece just popped up in Google News. Perhaps it is an exception for this particular source but the fact is that while more and more English language sources explicitly call for the absence of

1964:

Oh yes we're playing the 'everything's subjective' card again. Why don't we throw out all the rules of the English language than, they mean nothing because any and all usage is only our mere opinion! I don't point out the rules for your approval, just to see your basic knowledge of the language.

1842:

These are great websites, but you have to provide any actual proof. If you don't submit a citation to your information, it is still your opinion. Furthermore its correctness (dropping the article) is obviously be the explanation as to why usage has changed so it is quite relevant. Finally please

1667:

Well, I happen to be skeptical when a pseudonymous Knowledge user asserts to judge the professional writers of mainstream media to be "incorrect". Certain things are correct in more than one way and the best example is the name of the capital of Ukraine. Both names Kiev and Kyiv are correct. We are

1325:

which would be given the short form of "The Ukraine" because it was just too long to use in normal conversation. When the USSR collapsed the country dropped the SSR part and just became Ukraine. Having many Ukrainians in the diaspora with English as a second language, without applying any English

1305:

Ukraine. Point is that despite more and more of the major English media dropped the article, some still use it. That makes both forms necessary to mention with the note that one is becoming rare. However, since there is no final authority that defines what's "correct" in English, we should not make

1283:

I came here with the same issues, but after reviewing recent articles on the BBC site, I would concur with dropping the definite article. While Irpen (below) is correct that "there is no final authority that defines what's 'correct' in English," I think the BBC is probably as close to an authority

1084:

with the edit summary "Who's usage, yours? POV!". Clearly, either statement implies that the usage with the definite article has some currency and so it's not just my usage. Furthermore, I have not added my point of view on usage to the article; rather, Andrewuoft's revert has put a point of view

542:

To all: The name of the 9th century sate was Rus’. The Kievan Rus’ never existed through the history of Europe. The Kievan Rus’ name was coined in fairly recently in a way to emphasize the historical differences between Russia (which is Russian Federation now) and Rus’, presently Ukraine. It always

320:

That Ukraine became on of the founding republics of the Soviet Union was such a point of pride among Ukrainians that they got out as soon as they could--risking their lives to escape being murdered or imprisoned--and then fnaly the whole country escaped in 1991. But they sure were proud to become a

3300:

is not Kurd :) Russians and Ukrainians are two major groups of population and it does not matter what is the official language just as we do not care if Kurds are recognized by Saddam or not. Ukraine is objectively two-language country. Notice also that Russian is going to be accepted as the state

3280:

GET RID OF IT! You got my vote as well. Russian was the language of RSFSR and USSR. Since none of the entities exist and only the Russian Federation considers the Russian language as of own, no point to use it even as the mediation language. And if I may be sincere, I'm sick of this language issue

3009:

Miyokan, I know you want sources, but your recent adding of around twenty {{fact}} templates was not necessary. Please read the citations that are given, such as at the end of the Islam sentence. You requested citations for all those numbers, but the citation at the end of the sentence gives you

2256:

So I'm not sure what fantasy this is, because it's all layed out very clearly. I already know that some people here will require a more authoritative source, with an explicit entry defining it's usage. And even if that were produced, it's authority would be challenged and they'd require a higher

1946:

Your conclusion is not and cannot be "fact". It remains your conclusion and nothing but it. I have no intention to "draw" any "conclusions" on my own, different from yours or the same. Mine or your conclusions do not belong to the article as presented in the form of some sort of ultimate truth. We

1458:

The United States ... "states" is a normal English word; The United Kingdom ... "kingdom" has an English meaning ... but cf. England, Britain - strictly proper names; The Union of South Africa ... but South Africa The Netherlands remains with "the" because of, I suspect, its older form

1451:

if the country name contains what I'll call "a regular English word". By this I mean a word that exists natively and has some intrinsic meaning in the English language. "The" is NOT used for all other countries, where the name is simply (from the perspective of English) a succession of

1436:

Just to cite one example: why do we use the article in "the Charles Bridge" (in Prague) but not in "Charles University" (in the same city)? How are these inanimate objects so fundamentally different that one requires the article? Why is it "the Pennsylvania State University", with the article, but

1144:

I have reviewed the source cited for the statement that declares the "the" unnecessary, and it is clearly a non-scholarly publication riven with mistakes (Canada, for instance, is no longer styled "the Dominion of Canada", and never was in everyday speech; it is officially simply "Canada" now, and

938:

with it and unwilling to learn more about a culture. Furthermore, Ukraine does not have three types of first-level national subdivisions - Oblasts is the primary type. Having an autonomous republic is a 'special mention' in the article section, as are provincial-level cities. Check the wikiproject

3151:

I don't know. I feel somewhat compelled to object but your rational seems logical. If we look at it from an Anglophone’s point of view, I guess the fact that Russian is incredibly widely spoken doesn't concern them. A remove would seem reasonable to me, but lets not do anything just yet, give the

2502:

In late March of 2007 and early April the Ukrainian political system dealt with another constitutional crisis. President Viktor Yushchenko dissolved the Ukrainian parliament and ordered an early election to be held May 27, 2007. Crowds of about 70,000 gathered on Maidan Nezalezhnosti, the central

2167:

I disagree with "sometimes" because it is an understatement. How about "often" as a compromise between "sometimes" and "traditionally". But I would not have tagged a section because of this point alone. My main gripe is with andrewuoft's persistence insertion of the fantasy that "the Ukraine" was

2108:

I could also relate to a similar experience with linguists and English experts with graduate education. When asked about the relationship between "the" and "Ukraine", very few had a ready, substantiated answer. I think the reason for this is that most people just do not care, whether there is a

1647:

By 'Traditionally' do you mean pre-independence when the country was a state called the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic? Or even earlier in the days of the Ukrainian People's Republic, the West Ukrainian People's Republic and the Hetmanate? These require the article 'the', but Ukraine in its

1374:

The omission of the "the" before "Ukraine" is actually to do with Russian grammar. In Russian there are no definite or indefinite articles ("the" or "a"), but there are two forms of the preposition "in" - "В" and "На". In geography "В" is generally (but not always) used when referring to nations,

729:

I was always told in English it's The Ukraine and The Lebanon. That doesn't make it true, but I see no proof to claim "In English, the country is referred to without the definite article, conforming to the usual English grammar rules for names of countries." Ukraine would be an exception, that is

2331:

I agree "Ukraine" was not always synonymous with UkrSSR depending on how far back in time you go, and these other states should as well be noted (and they all required the article 'The' as they were apart of their names). The reverted etymology is insufficient because it fails to determine what

1932:

Please let me know if you draw a different conclusion from mine after reading that. The relevance of "correct" vs. "incorrect" is actually the cause of one usage being more common than the other, that is its relevance! Lastly I did reference the line I added, I would appreciate it if you stop

1613:

Your speculations about the "Russian lens" vs "Western Europeans" are interesting and all, but they are irrelevant. "The" was used for a long time and now the usage without the definite article is becoming more common. Thus, we are talking not "correct" vs "incorrect" but "traditionally used" vs

1488:

of that colony. The same view was surely held by western Europeans vis-a-vis Ukraine, where its status was viewed though a Russian lens. A review of English-language texts of Russian history will demonstrate this immediately, with their view of all of the history of Rus' as the history of Russia

313:

Also the introduction includes language that effectively says that Ukrainians were happy to be subjugated by the Russians: "After a brief period of independence (1917–1921) following the Russian Revolution of 1917, Ukraine became one of the founding Soviet Republics in 1922. The Ukrainian Soviet

197:

I believe that there was no Kuchma's regime (Kuchma is not Saddam Hussein or Augusto Pinochet) and even if it was Kuchma's regime it wasn't removed through the peaceful Orange Revolution, because there were elections and there was elected a new President. And it was not a revolution that brought

2410:

Is to be a private website a problem? There is plenty of private websites in Knowledge. In my opinion we should see if the link offers some extra information about the country. If most of the people think the content is not interesting for the article and want to revert it, go ahead. Thanks for

2081:

The real absurdity is that even though my additions are well referenced they are quickly dismissed as my opinion without any real evidence, even for trivial things like English language usage. While Irpen can contribute uncited opinions based on his personal experiences and feelings, trying to

1682:

as per the rules of the English language which is irrefutable, along with some examples. You on the other hand provide few examples (them being your news articles) but yet no clear definition of where the article is appropriate. I don't think you'll find anywhere where I apply my assertion or

1500:

was not added by Ukrainians, few of whom would have known any English when the noun "Ukraine" started filtering into the English language (in the mid-1800s). In contrast to what user 142.68.44.16 writes, "the Ukraine" was never widespread among Ukrainians who became or were natively literate in

1380:

However, when referring to Ukraine, Russians traditionally use "На". After independence in 1991 some Ukrainians started to take offence at this, since - they felt - this implies that Ukraine is not a sovereign state deserving a "В", but still just a province of a "greater Russia". Since Ukraine

3406:

As far as I know, the subject of a diet imposed by Christianity never has been discussed in Knowledge. However, reading the main article about Ukraine, I stumbled upon the lines "Ukrainians cuisine is, in fact, generally pre-Christian in origin."(C) I consider this line as the intention of the

3370:

I agree - Russian is a language of great part of Ukranians and if they call their country by this language it deserve /if I can say so/ to be here. General line of ukrainian polititians /official language/ has nothing to do with Knowledge. As for the "we dont use Spanish in USA page" - Russian

3295:

Russian is the language of ordinary people and, particularly, most of people in Ukraine. Taking into account that Knowledge is not controlled by any state, government or official and the fact that Russian is the most wide spread language in Ukraine, it does make sense to mention how Ukraine is

2015:

That being said, I don't buy Irpen's "traditional" phrase (that's like saying "black people traditionally have been slaves, but currently they are free". And the CNN News reference from google search Irpen provided above, falls apart when results are analyzed. The majority of the article on

1696:

I do not find myself in a position to make statements based on my own understanding of the rules of the English language. Neither I find you in such position. We can simply check facts and facts suggest that usage of "Ukraine" without "the" has become much more common than it was 10 years ago

922:

proper term or that it is not exotic. The truth is that the term is not familiar to the English speakers and the section titled with it is confusing as the reader would have no idea what the section is about. Further, Ukraine has three, not one, types of the first level national subdivisions,

3466:

The whole statement just sounds awkward to me. It goes without saying that Ukrainian athletes won medals for the USSR, and is somewhat meaningless without contrast. How about we replace it with something like, "Although many athletes who represented and won medals for the Soviet Union were

1396:"The Ukraine"." I would simply like to say that as an explanation this overlooks the thousands of Ukrainians in (say) Canada who came as native Ukrainian speakers before the Sovietization of Ukraine, and who nonetheless called their homeland 'the Ukraine' in English. just a small point. 962:

For what it's worth, here are my two roubles. "Oblasts" in Ukraine are a type of administrative division. "Autonomous Republic" in Ukraine is a type of administrative division. "Cities with special status" in Ukraine are a type of administrative division. Taken together, they are...

2020:

uses "Ukraine" without "the". The image caption uses it, but that may be already provided by "GettyImages" and CNN cannot be faulted for mistakes of third-party image providers. The article summary also uses "the Ukraine", but in that context that usage is acceptable - "The Ukraine's

386:

the restricted licence that had jeopardized their availability on Wikimedia Commons, became more free. At its closing, 25 people had spoken in favor of either of the two presented usages of new versions but neither version had reached a consensus (12 and 13), and 18 had preferred old

1492:

Once the term with the definite article began to be used, it of course "stuck" just as other things in English tend to get stuck with use. With time, this form starts to sound "normal", and the newer form to sound "weird", simply because the ear is not accustomed to the latter.

314:

Socialist Republic's territory was enlarged westward after the Second World War, and again in 1954 with the Crimea transfer. In 1945, Ukrainian SSR became one of the co-founder members of the United Nations. It became independent again after the Soviet Union's collapse in 1991"

3880:

were important recent studies. Those are "The Ukrainians: Unexpected Nation", "Ukraine’s Orange Revolution", and "Ukrainian Nationalism in the 1990s: A minority faith". Reviews and full data are easily googleable and these books are already listed as refs in several articles.

3131:

I am amazed at how one of the first things an English speaking user of the English wikipedia learns about Ukraine is how to spell it in Russian. Why on earth is this here? Russian is not an official language in Ukraine. Despite the fact that Spanish is widely spoken in

1360:

Nope. A name is a name, but this is a name translated to proper English and is outside the jurisdiction of a certain group but rather the set of rules that make up the English language. Any online search of 'when to use the' will tell you when the use of "the" is proper!

3086:

with a lot of useful info. Alternatively, the Ukrainian Canadian Congress published a memorandum "Українці під час другої світової війни" summarizing that "приблизно 7.5 мільйонів українців загинуло під час другої світової війни в наслідок репресій нацистів та совєтів".

2303:. Ukraine and the Ukrainian SSR was not one and the same thing. There were plenty of usages of the word "Ukraine" where it was not synonymous with the UkrSSR. In any case yours, or mine, speculations are irrelevant. The rest of the rant above does not need a response. -- 2213:

is going to persist his usage of the article is (or was) frequent than some indication should be made that this would have only been true in the past (which I tried to add) and I think that's quite evident with styleguides and such and my comparison of Google queries

1614:"currently more commonly used". While style manuals of more and more media explicitly mention the absence of "the", plenty of usage with "the" in solidly mainstream media still persists to this day. You can still find plenty of "the Ukraine" if you search the news. 3329:

KEEP IT Although Russian is not an official language half the country speaks Russian in their every day lives. Ukraine is extremely russified it’s an unfortunate fact but it’s a fact. In a few years USA will have its name spelled in Spanish as well. : ) Gregoriy

327:

This article should be deleted until a reasonable facsimile of the truth can be produced. It is horribly, horribly wrong to present these lies as the truth about the site of such atrocities. That is this is a MORAL wrong. Lest there be any doubt about what I mean.

1085:

back in. If a particular organization regards the usage with the definite article as incorrect then that certainly can be added (with a citation). Accordingly, I have marked the above statement as requiring a citation. In order for the current wording to be

2168:

used "as short form for the Ukrainian SSR". He is inserting it three times already. I am not going to revert war with him but this nonsense cannot remain in the section. For now, I tagged it to avoid revert warring that would pollute the article's history. --

2063:"the", a lot that still do are not some obscure irrelevant blogs but pretty mainstream sources. My main objection is to judging what is correct and what's not by the Knowledge users thus arguing with respected sources based on the "rules of English grammar". 1079:

Previously I changed "the country is sometimes incorrectly referred to with the definite article" to "the country is sometimes referred to with the definite article" on the basis that we reflect usage rather than set the rules on usage. This was reverted by

899:

I don't quite understand - what point are you trying to make? The proper English name is Oblast. Period. Just like the proper English name for 2nd-level Polish admin units is powiat, the proper English name for Jordanian 2nd-level admin units is nahia, etc.

2432:

It's obviously not an academic style web-site, has some unusual pictures of statues of Lenin and average people walking around on the streets. We might as well provide a link to some 13 year olds homepage with several pictures of his garden in Ukraine.

3371:

speaking ukrainians are natural part of Ukraine, they are not immigrants. No matter if present polititians or some users want to see it or not. Weight how much they done for their country and so on and so on. And Russian is oficial lanuage in Crimea.

1483:

I contend that the reason for the article in both of these cases was that, when the terms were created, they were perceived as being regions. Let us recall that Sudan, some time ago, was part of British Egypt and administered therefrom. Thus, it was a

1465:"The" is also used with political regions or natural/geographical regions spanning political entities, which may be, but generally are not, political entities in themselves, regardless of whether the main noun is a "regular English word" or not, thus: 1250:

use Ukraine without "the." But here, we follow established usage in English language, which is now without "the," although some users still prefer to use it. I for one do not use "the Ukraine," and even to some, this usage may considered as offensive.

596:. That's not bias if it is indeed true. He is trying to promote correct English, not promote a usage deprecated from the Ukrainian SSR. But the Russian Xenophobe around here never ceases to amaze me. If you're looking for an authoritarian source: 2058:

Riurik, thanks for your effort to tone andrewuoft down. Actually, I don't mind his tone much, I've seen worse around here. My main concern at this web-site is the content of the articles and I learned to ignore the offensive stuff for the most part.

1459:"The Nether Lands". The Philippines ... because that word literally means "the items of/posessed by/named after Phillip", similarly as one may talk about "the Marshalls" (meaning "the Marshall Islands") or "the Maldives" or "the Azores". 237:

Reverted back to original statement, the proposed one is blatantly incorrect and glosses over an important area in Ukrainian history. The first election was controversial and was decided to be corrupt and therefore void by the Ukrainian supreme court

2973:

and the fact that Koroliwka or Korolivka was there as well. Since 18th century, a lot of events passed through that region coserning particularly the Jewish population, which possibilly influenced the disappearence of, what I believe, the village.

3220:

Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective

2508:

Immediately the Verkhovna Rada was called in emergency session and voted against Yuschenko's decree 255 to 0. Yushchenko then took his case to the Supreme Court of Ukraine. A political struggle ensued between the Parliamentary coalition and the

2598:

In a lot of parts of Ukraine, and especially where I'm from, the language of convenience anything but Russian such as Gutsul dialect. A "wujko" from Donetsk might have to scope some pages of the "Tlumachnyi" dictionary to figure out that one:)

3016:. I don't know how to please you, should I add these citations to every place you added a citation needed tag? Or is one citation at the end of a sentence or paragraph enough? If you know how to do this effectivly, please do it. Thanks, 2881:

The demographics crisis is not even mentioned here, astonishing considering that the population is falling at an even faster rate than Russia, and the population has decreased by 6 million from a peak of 52 million last decade to 46 million

2951:

Of these, only 2 or maybe 3 were in what would have been Polish/Austrian-controlled territory in the year in question. Specifically, these 2 or 3 are those west of Zhytomyr. The remainder are in what would have then been Russian territory.

3296:

written in Russian. The above arguments against Russian do not make sense because Knowledge is made for people - not for officials and for Ukrainian state. Removing Russian is the same as saying that Kurdish does not exist in Iraq because

2540:

template here. {main} is intended to point to sub-articles. Typically, these occur when one article gets quite long, and sections are pulled out into their own articles. Most of the {main} links here are quite well-founded. However,

416: 1701:" are one of the common variants of writing the country's name. "Ukraine" is now more common. This is the fact and the article should relay the fact to the readers. We stick to facts and keep opinions about what's "correct" out. -- 1188:

There are tons of links already provided that show how to format the displaying of countries names in English. What no one here has yet to provide is a grammar rule that says these rules allow the definite article for Ukraine in

2571:

I know it's a big and endlessly contriversial topic and I hate to bring it up, but, when I read the following, I just can't help it... In my opinion following lines contain some russophillic bitterness towards the Ukrainization.

2339:'s explanation is only evidenced by fictitious conversations with "experts", and has determined himself to be the highest authority as in any explanation he does not provide or understand is only mere opinion or speculation. 978:

had oblasts, then using "oblasts" for section titles (and "oblasts of Ukraine" as the title of the main article) would have made perfect sense. Since it's not the case, using "oblasts" overly simplifies the title for no good

1521:

Just to re-iterate also being a native Ukrainian and English speaker I'm going to poke some holes in your statements :) I don't know why we keep going over this topic, but the rules for using the article "The" are posted at

306:

All articles on geographical regions or countries in any kind of publication anywhere have a section captioned People that tells about the people who live there-their ethnicity, religion, employment, outlook on life, etc.

3836:

I am surprised by the link for photos of Ukraine. Is that really the best collection out there? Mine at TryUkraine.com has 1500 pictures, and with captions, too. There are a few other decent collections out there as well.

2127:

Andrewuoft, I appreciate your dedication to the English language and Ukraine, and I hope that we all resolve this disagreement from now on with respect, even if this is not something that is given back in return. Regards,

952:

Furthermore, if you feel it should be named as according to what you want (and not what the guidelines of the wikiproject are)... call for a vote of consensus here on the talk page, and we'll see what the results produce.

1049:

The word "Oblast'" in Ukrainian (and other Slavic languages) literary translates to "province" in English. So I don't know why, the word is transliterated from its language when there's already word for it in English...

933:

Irpen - I disagree wholeheartedly. If you want to talk about the English speaking world, then a term like "canton" would be "exotic" - since it doesn't exist in an English speaking country. Oblast is only exotic to those

3892: 1947:

are not entitled to make conclusions. We present facts about usage. Also, please do not repeat yourself and waste space and time. I've read what you said about the Netherlans and Great Britain from the first time. --

467:

There mustnot be 'oppose' votes; if none of the options would be appreciated, you could vote for the option you might with some effort find least difficult to live with - rather like elections only allowing to vote

458:) and in particular the arguments offered by the forementioned poll, while realizing some comments to have been made prior to updating the maps, and all prior to modifying the licences, before carefully reading the 1508:

is no insult to be told that one is from "l'Ukraine". But apparently the Gabonese felt that the lack of an article in English somehow made them less of a country, which can only stem from an ignorance of English.

866:. I don't want to hear nitpick about having two cities and a republic, that is covered within the section (the primary unit is Oblasts). Also, as far as it being an "exotic" name - taken directly from the actual 2257:

authority, and higher, and higher, etc. Of course some can get away with adding whatever they like based on what they feel like, or fictitious conversations and scenarios that they try to pass off as 'fact'.

1002:

I know. Such changes, however, were not done via revert wars, but through discussion. I'd really hate to have to protect such a high-profile article just because you folks can't agree on a title of a minor

2608:

Well, may be you right, I'm no sure. But first version give it a meaning, that this process meets resistance from the East, South, Central regions. And this should be mentioned in some way. Waiting for your

2817:. United States is plural, hence the article. Ukraine is not. There is no grammatical reason to have the article, and because you think it sounds improper is not a reason. It is improper and rarely used. 1320:

Just to clarify I am going sum up this debate and will close all loopholes that keep coming up: Usage of "The Ukraine" has been deprecated officially since 1991 when the region was commonly referred to as

495:

I have some photos of Ukraine that may be of interest to readers, but unfortunately I cannot release them for use on Knowledge itself. How would people feel about linking to them? The URL for the page is

2698:

art style in Ukraine". If there is such need it can be written "Stalin initiated policy", however, the main point is that the policy was introduce in Ukraine (in Ukrainian SSR to be precise) by Soviets.

310:

Could it be because of the elimination of the local population as distinct from Russia be the reason for this? "There is no such thing as a Ukrainian. Ukrainians are Russians." Put that in there then.

1766:

And what exactly does that Google search prove, that usage with the article has declined and without has increased? Why didn't you make this a reference when you edited the etymology as your proof?

699:, the borderland version is explained again, more clearly. And, leaving scientific credibility and personal convictions aside, the borderland version is older and should probably be mentioned first. 2482:

This section is too concentrated on political aspect of Ukraine, I've added Eurovision 2005 and Euro 2012 into it, but it's still over-politiczed with details that don't belong on the front page. --

1697:(Ukraine was already independent back then, btw) but still common enough. Knowledge users are not entitled to argue with professional writers. We can only present facts. "The Ukraine", along with " 3891:

Well, the list is mostly based on Ostap's userpage. I figured, many other countries have these sort of section, so why not Ukraine. When in comes to non-historic literature, what do you think of

1030:

that in your last revert you did not even bother to check what you are reverting to and restored some vandalism. Until you are lone in instisting on this change, please do not make it. Thanks, --

3064:

Would anyone happen to have any referenced numbers for the amount of Ukrainians in the Soviet Army and in the Ukrainian insurgent army? I'm having some trouble finding these figures. Regards,

2652: 708:

Maybe in Polish "ukraine" means "borderland" or anything else, I don't care. But, in Ukrainian it literally means "inland" where u = in, kraina = land... quite obvious to any native speaker.

1375:

whereas "На" usually refers to natural regions. Thus, when translating Russian to English "B" is rendered "in" and "На" "in the" - i.e. "в России" = "in Russia", "на Урале" = "in the Urals".

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language soon as part of democratic reforms and transfer to confederation. So let’s make Knowledge for real people and not for official propaganda (anti-Russian propaganda in this case).

745:

How is a University English department not a reliable reference? Why is Ukraine an exception, can you (or anyone else fighting for the article) provide any sort of reference yourself? --

594:

A few neanderthal writers in the past have even promoted "the Ukraine" to reflect the original meaning "the borderland" in order to diminish the international political stature of Ukraine

321:

founding member of the CCCP! "Why did we fight a war to become independent in 1917, when we are so happy now as slaves to the Russians," they said as they became a founding CCCP member.

1462:

Note that the use of the "the" has nothing to do with the plural number, as the UK and South Africa examples above demonstrate (and in contrast to what user andrewuoft asserted above).

3876:

article rather than for the most general article about the country as pretty much all of these books are on history. Speaking of the English books on history of Ukraine three books by

1990:"? Who the hell are you? And if you're going to pull the "grammatical rules of the English language" card, you should try to apply them in the same paragraph (e.g. improper usage of 1395:"Having many Ukrainians in the diaspora with English as a second language, without applying any English syntax they called it "the Ukraine". Very simply: "The Ukrainian SSR" -: --> 568:

I propose to move the whole section to the bottom of the article. Which word does the Kyiv Chronicle mention: Krayina or Ukrayina? Please clarify. Addded . The referenced text

514:

There seems to be a huge reappearing gap in the begining of the article, people seem to be removing it but it just keeps coming back...why can't we get rid of it Permanently?

1965:

If the grammatical rules of the English language are outside your understanding, please refrain from editing the English version of Knowledge for it's integrity's sake.

1719:

not dictate proper grammar, they reference the ultimate authority: the rules of the English language and yes they are capable of making mistakes just like you and me.

2118:

Rather than saying "traditionally", I suggest we use earlier formulation (e.g. "in the past...today usage w/o "the" is more prevailing" or something along these lines).

1554:

because it comprised of the Cape, Natal, Transvaal and the Orange Free States. Their combination warrants the use of the article "the" as per the rule I posted. Also

993:

Just remember that titles of articles have been moved/changed due to the needs... I've seen titles go from "Administrative divisions" to "Subdivisions" and vice versa.

412:

whether the new style maps may be applied as soon as some might become available for countries outside the European continent (or such to depend on future discussions),

294:

I'm no expert on Ukraine or Poland, but it seems odd that the history section contains no mention of Polish-Ukrainian strife. Anyone ever heard of OUN? Stepan Bandera?

1433:

when a specific item is the subject". This explanation is identical in 4th grade language texts as in college-level ones. One is expected to learn further by "feel".

1168:

Certain countries' names can take the article — or not, if you prefer — and there really is no definitive authority in the English language for deciding these things.

1364:

There, an entire debate without any mention of ill-intentioned people, neanderthalism or xenophobes but that's of course not to say that they don't exist here. --

2099:

yet as my examples above have shown, sometimes the mainstream sources are simple transmitters of messages by not so mainstream authors (the press release case).

1529:

Use "the" if the name of the country is plural or indicates a group (of states, islands, etc.) * the United States * the Netherlands * the Phillipines

250:

While I personally supported these events, "Kuchma regime" is a wording that blatantly violates NPOV and cannot be used passingly. I am reverting you change. --

3070:

00:04, 17 November 2007 (UTC) "Soviet troops who fell in battle against the Nazis, about a quarter (2.7 million) were ethnic Ukrainians", where is this from?

1421:

number of exceptions astute non-native-English speakers manage to come up with that no English speaker would think of. Further, despite many searches, I have

1425:

managed to find anything but the most rudimentary explanation of the use of articles in any English grammar text or style manual --- something akin to "use

2935:

However, Mapquest has some very odd spellings still lying around (note "Bucac" near Korolivka, which should be spelled "Buchach" for English; the letters

2332:

exactly "The Ukraine" is referring to, anyone who reads the article will be stumped in trying to find this country called "The Ukraine" prior to 1991.

2087:

usage is a crucial part of its etymology because it is the reason why usage without the article is predominant, that's why it belongs in that section.

890:

The Russian Xenophobe here never ceases to amaze me. How long will the struggle of trying to make Ukraine look like a military outpost go on for?

2942:

This prompted me to do a wider search for what would be Russian version of the name, viz., Korolevka. This comes up with multiple possibilities:

1586:

does not denote a region, rather all francophones in Canada, whether or not they live in communities with significant francophone populations.

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Well after the fall of the Soviet Union, the definite article was dropped and is more common that use with "the." Major media resources like

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is actually an archaic term, referring to the period 1581 to 1795 when the Dutch republic was a loose confederation of seven provinces and

636:

I also question this (see below, "The" Ukraine), and empirically suggested the distinction being in reference to the geographic entity pre-

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Submitted to GAN with error tag for citing sources. As well randomly checking sources gives unaccessible URL links for citation 42 and 52

2066:

Personally, I never use "the", but, curiously enough, native speakers, including one professional linguist, not once attempted to correct

3546:

Grammar: More than 600,000 Soviet soldiers (or one quarter of the Western Front) were killed or takes captive. Should be taken not takes.

1221:

What guidelines are there, and on what basis, for adding the definite article to the country's name (i.e. "the Ukraine") when writing in

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Your confusion regarding using the article with bridges vs. Universities vs. Colleges is unfortunately just the result of poor grammar.

1504:

At any rate, at present, post-independence (1991), saying "the Ukraine" is no more sensible than saying "the Wales" or "the Scotland".

1351:

How can you reference incorrect usage? Infinite possibilities can exist for incorrect usage, and how do you reference them and where?

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is the best, but without the occasionally is fine too. Perhaps "sometimes"? Saying "traditionally" is not true, and not verifiable.

2594:

However, in non-government areas of life, the languages of convenience are welcome to be used such as Russian, Tatar, Hungarian etc.

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Well, when you first brought this up I thought it would spark something close to an RfC, obviously that wasn't the case. Regards,

800:). To drop the article is to give it equal status with other nation states. To someone familiar with the history of Ukrainians, 782:

has only been applied to the Ukrainian nation in the modern sense since the 19th century, when it was chosen as an alternative to

3725: 1858: 1129:

it would need to be shown that virtually all relevant authorities on English usage agreed on this point (which I very much doubt)

3553:

Are these types of words true to dictionaries? enserfment, Russification, Ukrainization, Korenization, Polonization, unfree .

2577:

are largely Russian-speaking. However, in non-government areas of life, the language of convenience (usually Russian) is used.

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A compromise between Yushchenko and Yanukovych has been reached to reschedule parliamentary elections for September 30, 2007.

2669:

I've noticed a very much increased amount of vandalism on this page, what would it take to get it semi-protected? Regards,

1562:

is compromised of three island groups : Luzon, Visayas, and Mindanao. Therefore my assertion is still very much correct :)

370:, a poll had tried to find a consensus for usage of 'old' or of which and where 'new' version maps. Please note that since 3286: 2995: 2848: 472:

one of several candidates. Obviously, you are most welcome to leave a brief argumentation with your vote. Kind regards. —

2278:

is self-evident. What exactly are you trying to argue here, that pre-Independence Ukraine was not officially titled the

2229:

is self-evident. What exactly are you trying to argue here, that pre-Independence Ukraine was not officially titled the

1988:

if the grammatical rules of the English language are outside your understanding, refrain from editing the English version

1599:

The same view was surely held by western Europeans vis-a-vis Ukraine, where its status was viewed though a Russian lens.

239: 2932:, an area of Ukraine (ethnolinguistically speaking) that would have been controlled by Poland, then by Austria-Hungary. 2071:

custom is now being gradually phased out. It happens as the languages evolve. I don't see a better way of putting it. --

378:

all new maps became updated by David Liuzzo (including a world locator, enlarged cut-out for small countries) and as of

2384:

I'm against. It looks like some private web-site and with rather unusual content, not for encyclopedia to broadcast.--

880:

So it isn't an "exotic" name, it is a formal and proper name to use. That is why this edit should be made. Thanks! :)

580:

theory. I added a link to the online version of Vasmer's etymological dictionary of the Russian language. I wonder if

923:

Oblasts, an autonomous republic and two cities with special status. Thus, "Obasts" is not only sloppy but inexact. --

626:

Can any of you provide any real sort of justification for using "The Ukraine" besides your own personal preference?

3030: 2923:

The most likely location seems to be Korolivka (Королівка) in Ivano-Frankivs'k oblast . Mapquest (R) gives it here:

2892:

I agree - more Demographic information! It lost millions in World War II! - that should be interesting and notable--

2017: 1933:

spreading lies. My conclusion is not my opinion, rather it is fact as justified above and is clearly referenced.

1040:

I won't touch accusations of trolling, however, I am not the only one. Do what you need to do, I have said my say.

38: 3877: 3524: 3432: 3341: 2590:"This is even done in areas which are largely Russian-speaking." - this needs to be removed for it makes no sense 719: 695:

and then the two contradicting points of view are lumped together in one paragraph. Then, in the next paragraph,

2939:

are missing the "hachek" symbol (č) if using Czech/Slovak-style transliteration; it would be Buczacz in Polish.

2843:

That's right! The Hague also does not seem as proper English, but that's the name so that is how you accept it.

2039: 1913: 3382: 3282: 2991: 2844: 2800:

But thats how the government decided, so we shouldn't change it just because we think it is more proper to say

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all refer to regions that are a collection of US States or countries so my assertion is still holding strong!

616:

Calling anyone neanderthal or xenophobe is borderline offensive and violating wiki policy, at best. Just MHO.

2960: 1904:

The Gambia, officially the Republic of The Gambia, commonly known as Gambia, is a country in Western Africa.

389:

As this outcome cannot justify reverting of new maps that had become used for some countries, seconds before

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The first time abbreviations are used, they should be spelled out in full, like USSR, SFSR, SSR, UEFA, FIFO.

3500:

This is a nice piece of work, but it still has some shortcomings with respect to the good article criteria.

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Russian is not going to be a state language, and it is not the language of the ordinary people in Ukraine.

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http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?formtype=address&country=UA&addtohistory=&city=korolevka

2928:

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?formtype=address&country=UA&addtohistory=&city=korolivka

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That's funny, I accuse you of the same thing. The only difference is that with my argument I provide a

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But the grammatical question is not answered. Although the country's official name is simply "Ukraine,"

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a soveregn state, it's probably NPOV to accept their interpretation of the language and omit the "the".

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This article is seriously deficient in that is has no section captioned People near the top or at all.

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How is mine POV? If I have to re-post every "authoritarian" sources in each section than I will do so:

967:" of Ukraine! This title takes care of all types, not to mention that the main article is located at 215: 3447:

Bogdan, I am confused how to clarify the weasle words about soviet athletes. The list of them here:

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I don't know where the mentioned number came from, but there is a section "Втрати народу України" at

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Viktor Yushchenko and Yulia Tymoshenko to power, but people who elected Yushchenko as the President.

2969:

Well, considering that he was a Jew (whom I don't know), it's very possible for him to be born upon

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Don't Use "a," "an," or "the" * Russia * South Africa * Holland * Canada * Great Britian * England

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Some of the words here kind of burn my eyes reading them. I propose to consider following changes.

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while now considered a region in the North East US was originally a US colony but no longer exists.

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under a free license. It would be great to increase the collection of freely available images.--

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I believe that in the English language the proper usage is "the Ukraine." In particulat, we have

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Lead introduces Ukraine history and identification very well, but not the other sections at all.

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The fair use rationale for photo Chernobyl reactor number four after the disaster is not stated

2911: 1922:

Use "the" if the name of the country is plural or indicates a group (of states, islands, etc.)

1179:- just because US English forked from Commonwealth English doesn't mean they don't follow rules 1102:

The following are style guides for popular publications on how to properly address the country:

831: 3821: 3456: 3228: 3182: 3164: 3141: 2695: 2691: 2196:

Fine by me but someone has got to do something about andrewoft's aggressive revert-warring. --

1630:, etc. that they are "incorrect". We are talking style manuals here and style manuals only. -- 1335:

Use "the" if the name of the country is plural or indicates a group (of states, islands, etc.)

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It's still misleading. Kuchma would not remain president regardless of the Orange Revolution.

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Needs a reviewer to double check broad in coverage who is very familiar with Ukraine history.

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Other groups include Calvinists, Lutherans, Methodists, Seventh-day Adventists. should have

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And this is exactly why the Russian name should not be listed. In English language, neither

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That's a nice try, but The Hague is a city, not a country. Its rules are different in the

3895:, Irpen? It is an investment review on Ukraine, I find it a little short though. Regards, 2979: 1575: 1559: 1555: 1274: 1255: 1236: 762: 669: 102:

This archive page covers approximately the dates between January 2005 and December 2006.

1213:

People are putting fake information about the Ukraine GDP, its really getting annoying.

346:

had shown new maps created by David Liuzzo, that are available for the countries of the

317:

There is so much wrong with the preceding quote that it is hard to know where to begin.

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Nomenklatura should maybe be nomenclature in english, unless it is the name of a party.

3297: 3215: 2914:, Podolia (Ukraine) about 1726. Can anyone provide a current name for this locality? __ 2656: 2633: 2233:

as a state in the Soviet Union? That 'The Ukraine' does not refer to the area of the

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All-in-all I think you missed the main conclusion of why the article has stuck around:

918:

is an improper term in English. However, its being proper does not mean its being the

830:

Elena Filatova has released all of her photography on her website into Public Domain.

240:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1101384864687_165/?hub=CTVNewsAt11

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the numbers. All that information for you requests can be found on these two sites:

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and subsequently to the second election, which removed Kuchma's regime. ~ AndrewUofT

3163:

I agree, Russian is not official language in the country so it should be removed. --

1468:

the South the Midwest the Middle East the Bible Belt the Crimea the Sahel

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The list as of now, judging from the selection, is more appropriate for a narrower

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Other groups include Calvinists, Lutherans, Methodists, and Seventh-day Adventists.

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Hi everybody! I propose the addition of the following external link about Ukraine.

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In your reply, did you intend that the definite article was dropped at that point,

1225:? I'm inclined to use "the Ukraine" in text referring to the country prior to its 1185:- The old 'everything is subjective' argument again, can't get enough of that here! 272:

Then you really don't understand what the Orange Revolution was about ~ AndrewUofT

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Such body, however, is 'not the Ukrainian government but the proper branch of the

1986:

Hey! I found your statement to be offensive - the one where you told Irpen that "

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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the English usage "I want to live in Ukraine" does not sound proper English. --

1799:(not just Google) because the former is more up to date with what's being used 679:

Why not just leave it up to Ukraine to decide what it calls itself in English.

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That Ukrainian authorities consider such usage incorrect should be referenced'

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contains many of them. Knowing this, in what way should this be clarified?

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syntax they called it "the Ukraine". Very simply: "The Ukrainian SSR" -: -->

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Ukrainians, all the Soviet achievements were credited to Russia"? Regards ,

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Hi! If nobody says anything I'll put the link in a couple of days. Thanks.

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andrewuoft, please cut your xenophobia rhetoric. It will get you blocked.

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when one member or an indefinite member of some group is the subject, and

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now used instead of Peking) and proper English declares it without 'the'.

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The current version of the etymology section is confusing. It starts with

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which are written without an article; why? Have to think about that one.

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A few neanderthal writers in the past have even promoted "the Ukraine"...

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If there were, we wouldn't have differing Commonwealth and US spellings,

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to convince the majority of editors. Further, you are so eager to revert

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standpoint of editors familiar with texts in English about this region.

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with of without indicating the entire European Union by a separate shade

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in referring to the area pre-independence (which is my case in point)?

645: 109:, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary. 1444:

Having thought about this a lot, the best rule I can come up with is:

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accompanied by a series of protests and political events known as The

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User andrewuoft gave a good example above, upon which I will expand:

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to only then finally make up your mind and vote for only one option.

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GET RID OF IT! Unless I am mistaken it violates the criteria for

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Now to deal with the apparent exceptions: The Sudan, The Ukraine.

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And finally this is how the Government refers to itself in English:

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Yeah Kuchma was not like Saddam Hussein. But he was really close))

3801:

Lviv Teological Seminary should this be Lviv Theological Seminary?

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http://www.economist.com/research/styleGuide/index.cfm?page=805717

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http://www.economist.com/research/styleGuide/index.cfm?page=805717

98:

DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.

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http://www.jordibusque.com/Index/Stories/Ukraine/Ukraine_01.html

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In the same search result from google, CNN Money had a story on

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So the name of the administrative subdivisions, technically, is

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version and agree with the removal of the tag. Thanks Ostap. --

1914:

http://depts.gallaudet.edu/englishworks/grammar/whentousea.html

1524:

http://depts.gallaudet.edu/englishworks/grammar/whentousea.html

1517:

bejmark Clarified and expanded 26 Nov 2007 by the same author.

1329:

http://depts.gallaudet.edu/englishworks/grammar/whentousea.html

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Perhaps another reference or two would improve this section.

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So I ready to hear what do you think about such arguments.--

2835:, all your questions can be answered there by my additions 832:

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/afterword.html

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Thank you Greger, that link shall be quite useful. Cheers,

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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/List of Ukrainian Americans

1111:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/page/0,,184825,00.html

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The reason to change the section title comes directly from

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/page/0,,184825,00.html

338:

Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries

3793:

In particular, in Ukrainian krayina means simply "country"

2694:

the state policy" instead of "the Soviets began enforcing

2630:

Knowledge:Articles for deletion/List of Russian Americans

2250:

The Ukrainian SSR was renamed Ukraine on August 24, 1991

1925:* the United States * the Netherlands * the Phillipines 524:

It's a bug in the Portal template, which is protected. —

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is one of the Neanderthals Gregorovich is referring to.

242:) which lead protests and political events known as The 3424: 3027: 2687:

this article? I don't really see any appealing reason.

2393:

I'm with Sylius. This is definatly a private web-site.

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evokes a historical region of the Great Russian Empire.

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is not just England/Britain. Rather it is made up of

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I ended this debate along time ago as noted above in

2222:

the article which shows 'with' usage is less than 1%.

3026:

Miyokan is clearly abusing the fact template (diff:

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such as schools, government offices, and some media.

1183:

reference to authority is a logical fallacy, anyway,

342:

On the WikiProject Countries talk page, the section

834:Scroll to the bottom. Good high-resolution photos! 145:, Kuchma's regime was removed through the peaceful 260:I'll change 'regime' to 'government' ~ AndrewUofT 2982:is considered to be kind of close to the region ( 2746:United States" we should say, "I want to live in 1618:. Who are we to tell the professional writers at 576:Please provide a better reference to support the 3853:Feel free to select the best ones and upload to 2690:Second, Miyokan insists on writing "Stalin made 3281:and any discussion should be ommited. Please! 3449:Category:Olympic_athletes_of_the_Soviet_Union 1437:"Franklin and Marshall College", without it? 1005:Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) 981:Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) 498:http://www.slayman.com/images/europe/ukraine/ 8: 3812:a sign of improvement, as the birth rate has 3724:(images are tagged and non-free images have 3029:). The statistical data are coming from the 1741:stick to facts and keep the opinions out. -- 3177:Hey, three editors agreeing isn't too bad. 1452:phonemes with no other intrinsic meaning. 1229:independence and subsequent identity as a 2536:There were several misguided uses of the 1131:which I challenge you to prove otherwise! 826:Lots of public domain images from Ukraine 572:by Andrew Gregorovich is clearly biased: 461:presentation of the currently open survey 3031:State Department of Ukraine on Religious 875:English recommended (formal use): oblast 659:, I'd appreciate some guidance from the 419:) should be applied for which countries. 189:was appointed as a Prime-Minister while 3402:The ridiculing line needs to be removed 2362:Please, let me know what do you think. 2299:posted to the talk page qualifies as a 914:Rarelibra, no one is arguing here that 3423:That particular phrase was introduced 2523:Ukrainian parliamentary election, 2007 2494:Does anyone object moving all of this: 1357:National Academy of Science of Ukraine 1308:National Academy of Science of Ukraine 137:I suggest to substitute the paragraph 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3152:discussion some time first. Regards, 2726:More particularly, we would not say, 2274:"Now, 'The Ukraine' as short for the 7: 3798:Capitalise pentecostals and cossacks 2742:But like saying, "I wany to live in 2557:, so I removed those {main} links. — 2225:Now, 'The Ukraine' as short for the 2145:What exactly is disputed? I think " 769:is considered incorrect, as much as 344:Location Maps for European countries 118:Knowledge:How to archive a talk page 969:administrative divisions of Ukraine 3719:, where possible and appropriate. 3640: 3427:. It should probably be reverted. 510:Gap in the begining of the article 409:. It should establish two things: 24: 2910:is believed to have been born in 2776:I found the following reference: 2282:as a state in the Soviet Union?" 1233:. Would this be correct, or not? 3769: 3745: 3731: 3700: 3676: 3673:Fair representation without bias 3649: 3639: 3613: 3599: 3585: 3530: 3516: 2628:Please see the deletion vote at 1119:http://www.kmu.gov.ua/control/en 681:http://www.kmu.gov.ua/control/en 177:was elected as the President in 133:Modern history - Kuchma's regime 29: 3776:Good luck improving the article 2754:Any opinions on the use of the 2291:is not enough to be considered 2986:), but as far as I know it is 2833:Talk:Ukraine#.22The.22_Ukraine 2813:No, look in the article under 2660:02:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 2269:I will just respond to this: 1: 3902:16:34, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 3886:06:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 3862:06:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC) 3847:02:20, 14 December 2007 (UTC) 3791:This is a sentence fragment - 3474:02:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC) 3461:21:49, 29 November 2007 (UTC) 3437:04:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC) 3417:19:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC) 3365:23:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC) 3346:22:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC) 3291:02:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC) 3203:21:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC) 3187:21:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC) 3173:17:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC) 3159:08:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC) 3146:07:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC) 3077:23:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC) 3053:11:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC) 3021:05:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC) 3000:02:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC) 2965:04:05, 27 November 2007 (UTC) 2919:00:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC) 2869:14:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC) 2853:02:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC) 2681: 2344:14:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC) 2326:04:01, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 2308:23:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC) 2262:21:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC) 2201:02:59, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 2192:00:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 2173:20:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC) 2162:19:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC) 2133:22:07, 19 December 2007 (UTC) 2076:04:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC) 2047:04:17, 19 December 2007 (UTC) 1970:20:56, 18 December 2007 (UTC) 1952:06:35, 18 December 2007 (UTC) 1938:06:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC) 1891:05:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC) 1863:22:13, 17 December 2007 (UTC) 1814:21:50, 17 December 2007 (UTC) 1771:21:30, 17 December 2007 (UTC) 1746:21:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC) 1724:21:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC) 1706:21:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC) 1688:20:52, 17 December 2007 (UTC) 1673:20:33, 17 December 2007 (UTC) 1663:"The" Ukraine (section break) 1653:19:50, 17 December 2007 (UTC) 1635:19:28, 17 December 2007 (UTC) 563:17:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC) 255:23:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC) 3827:04:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC) 3770: 3746: 3732: 3701: 3677: 3650: 3614: 3600: 3586: 3531: 3517: 3385:) 09:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC) 3320:15:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC) 3311:14:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC) 3265:03:35, 6 December 2007 (UTC) 3233:00:38, 6 December 2007 (UTC) 3119:04:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC) 3107:04:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC) 2897:15:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC) 2887:09:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC) 2839:1:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC) 2822:18:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC) 2809:18:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC) 2793:17:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC) 2769:16:55, 10 October 2007 (UTC) 2682:User:Miyokan's contributions 2091:5:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC) 1680:*definition* of proper usage 1606:04:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC) 1515:07:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC) 1474:French Canada New England 354:exist in two versions. From 299:15:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC) 203:08:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC) 112:Please add new archivals to 3788:Grammar and spelling again: 3084:http://www.peremoga.gov.ua/ 2674:21:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC) 2637:03:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC) 2604:04:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC) 2295:. Nor personal opinions by 1909:once more just to be clear: 1881:Per your "English grammar" 1293:13:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC) 852:, which specifically says: 724:15:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC) 350:, and for countries of the 3918: 3498: 3397:10:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC) 2619:10:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC) 1315:21:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1288:as we're likely to get. - 1278:08:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC) 1263:20:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1240:06:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1094:18:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC) 1045:19:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC) 1035:19:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC) 1013:18:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC) 998:18:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC) 989:18:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC) 958:18:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC) 944:18:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC) 928:18:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC) 905:13:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC) 885:13:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC) 704:21:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC) 693:According to one theory... 687:19:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC) 673:08:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC) 631:11:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC) 621:13:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC) 611:08:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC) 529:22:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC) 519:14:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC) 505:02:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 3005:Citation needed templates 2562:02:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC) 2487:06:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC) 2464:22:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC) 2438:18:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC) 2416:08:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC) 2398:16:45, 10 June 2007 (UTC) 2389:16:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC) 1401:00:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC) 1390:11:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC) 1231:Soviet Socialist Republic 894:9:29, 13 April 2007 (EST) 839:19:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC) 589:21:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC) 285:22:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC) 268:21:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC) 149:. The revolution brought 3562:Capitalize Mediterranean 2553:are not sub-articles of 2380:08:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC) 2367:22:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC) 1411:8:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC) 1199:17:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC) 1155:04:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC) 1066:22:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC) 963:"administrative division 755:13:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC) 740:16:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC) 426:(also in other sections 333:01:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC) 207:You can edit an article. 157:to power, while casting 127:11:48, 6 July 2008 (UTC) 3506:reasonably well written 2715:United States"; but not 2703:Ukraine vs. The Ukraine 2411:discuss before revert. 2244:page here on Knowledge: 1369:22:00, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 1136:18:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 870:, you can see it says: 697:According to another... 644:" and post-Soviet era " 399:will be closed soon at 276:text to the following: 193:was cast in opposition. 179:controvercial elections 165:with the thу next one: 3738:(appropriate use with 2815:Ukraine#Name_etymology 2350:External link proposal 648:)." Leaving aside the 606:the English language. 570:Ukraine or The Ukraine 397:a survey started that 132: 114:Talk:Ukraine/Archive 4 3713:It is illustrated by 3665:neutral point of view 3629:broad in its coverage 2185:was often referred to 1552:Union of South Africa 850:WikiProject Countries 42:of past discussions. 2209:I would say that if 1075:The definite article 788:(and to the related 105:Post replies to the 3726:fair use rationales 3283:Aleksandr Grigoryev 2992:Aleksandr Grigoryev 2877:Demographics crisis 2845:Aleksandr Grigoryev 2804:instead of Ukraine. 2732:"I want to live in 2647:Deletion discussion 2642:Deletion discussion 2601:Aleksandr Grigoryev 1919:Names of Countries 1338:* the United States 415:which new version ( 3874:History of Ukraine 3810:Change grammar to 3795:consider revising. 3569:factually accurate 2459:the link, really! 1616:Check for yourself 1447:"The" is used for 1301:I also do not use 819:2008-05-31 23:53 z 348:European continent 3824: 3740:suitable captions 3697:No edit wars etc. 3386: 3377:comment added by 3348: 3336:comment added by 3267: 3251:comment added by 3109: 3093:comment added by 3055: 3039:comment added by 2696:socialist realism 2692:Socialist Realism 1865: 1849:comment added by 1471:However, we have 1344:* the Phillipines 1341:* the Netherlands 1323:The Ukrainian SSR 1068: 1056:comment added by 820: 726: 714:comment added by 565: 549:comment added by 463:. You are invited 244:Orange Revolution 228: 214:comment added by 191:Viktor Yanukovych 183:Orange Revolution 175:Viktor Yushchenko 159:Viktor Yanukovych 151:Viktor Yushchenko 147:Orange Revolution 95: 94: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3909: 3900: 3822: 3773: 3772: 3749: 3748: 3735: 3734: 3704: 3703: 3680: 3679: 3653: 3652: 3643: 3642: 3617: 3616: 3603: 3602: 3594:reliable sources 3589: 3588: 3534: 3533: 3520: 3519: 3472: 3372: 3331: 3246: 3201: 3157: 3117: 3088: 3075: 3069: 3034: 2863:English language 2665:Those vandals... 2287:Self-evident to 2141:disputed section 1844: 1548:Northern Ireland 1051: 974:Now, if Ukraine 818: 709: 544: 484: 422:Please read the 227: 208: 187:Yulia Tymoshenko 155:Yulia Tymoshenko 125: 73: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3917: 3916: 3912: 3911: 3910: 3908: 3907: 3906: 3896: 3870: 3868:Further reading 3834: 3662:It follows the 3636:(major aspects) 3482: 3468: 3445: 3404: 3338:216.112.130.129 3197: 3153: 3129: 3113: 3071: 3065: 3062: 3007: 2980:Ternopil oblast 2949: 2930: 2905: 2879: 2758:with "Ukraine"? 2705: 2684: 2667: 2649: 2644: 2626: 2569: 2534: 2480: 2352: 2317:I am fine with 2301:reliable source 2251: 2181:was referred to 2143: 1929: 1926: 1920: 1905: 1665: 1600: 1576:the Middle East 1560:The Philippines 1556:The Netherlands 1550:. As well the 1530: 1475: 1469: 1460: 1453: 1219: 1211: 1082:User:Andrewuoft 1077: 846: 828: 763:Name of Ukraine 716:194.242.102.250 540: 512: 493: 485: 476: 340: 330:RUReady2Testify 292: 209: 200:Elefante bianco 135: 121: 120:.) Thank you. — 69: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3915: 3913: 3905: 3904: 3869: 3866: 3865: 3864: 3833: 3830: 3815: 3814: 3808: 3802: 3799: 3796: 3789: 3786: 3782: 3781: 3780: 3779: 3778: 3777: 3757: 3756: 3755: 3754: 3753: 3711: 3710: 3709: 3708: 3707: 3687: 3686: 3685: 3684: 3683: 3660: 3659: 3658: 3657: 3656: 3625: 3624: 3623: 3622: 3621: 3592:(citations to 3564: 3563: 3560: 3557: 3554: 3551: 3549:churhes--: --> 3547: 3543: 3542: 3541: 3540: 3539: 3538: 3497: 3496: 3481: 3478: 3477: 3476: 3444: 3441: 3440: 3439: 3403: 3400: 3379:212.111.199.30 3368: 3367: 3327: 3326: 3325: 3324: 3323: 3322: 3298:Saddam Hussein 3277: 3276: 3275: 3274: 3273: 3272: 3271: 3270: 3269: 3268: 3245:is relevant. 3194: 3193: 3192: 3191: 3190: 3189: 3128: 3125: 3124: 3123: 3122: 3121: 3061: 3058: 3057: 3056: 3006: 3003: 2944: 2925: 2904: 2901: 2900: 2899: 2894:Dwarf Kirlston 2878: 2875: 2874: 2873: 2872: 2871: 2856: 2855: 2829: 2828: 2827: 2826: 2825: 2824: 2786: 2785: 2781: 2780: 2773: 2772: 2771: 2759: 2740: 2739: 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1877: 1876: 1875: 1874: 1873: 1872: 1871: 1870: 1869: 1868: 1867: 1866: 1827: 1826: 1825: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1821: 1820: 1819: 1818: 1817: 1816: 1782: 1781: 1780: 1779: 1778: 1777: 1776: 1775: 1774: 1773: 1755: 1754: 1753: 1752: 1751: 1750: 1749: 1748: 1731: 1730: 1729: 1728: 1727: 1726: 1711: 1710: 1709: 1708: 1691: 1690: 1664: 1661: 1660: 1659: 1658: 1657: 1656: 1655: 1640: 1639: 1638: 1637: 1624:Jerusalem Post 1598: 1597: 1596: 1592: 1591: 1580:the Bible Belt 1564: 1563: 1540:United Kingdom 1535: 1534: 1528: 1527: 1526: 1473: 1467: 1457: 1446: 1418: 1417: 1413: 1412: 1393: 1392: 1377: 1376: 1346: 1345: 1342: 1339: 1336: 1318: 1317: 1298: 1297: 1296: 1295: 1286:accepted usage 1281: 1218: 1215: 1210: 1207: 1206: 1205: 1204: 1203: 1202: 1201: 1186: 1180: 1174: 1172:There sure is! 1160: 1159: 1158: 1157: 1139: 1138: 1125: 1121: 1116: 1113: 1108: 1103: 1100: 1076: 1073: 1072: 1071: 1070: 1069: 1024: 1023: 1022: 1021: 1020: 1019: 1018: 1017: 1016: 1015: 972: 947: 946: 910: 908: 907: 878: 877: 860: 859: 845: 842: 827: 824: 823: 822: 806: 805: 785:Little Russian 778:Incidentally, 775: 774: 758: 757: 677: 676: 624: 623: 539: 536: 534: 532: 531: 511: 508: 492: 489: 487: 466: 421: 420: 413: 388: 352:European Union 341: 339: 336: 291: 290:Ethnic history 288: 258: 257: 161:in opposition. 134: 131: 130: 107:main talk page 93: 92: 87: 84: 79: 74: 67: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3914: 3903: 3899: 3894: 3890: 3889: 3888: 3887: 3884: 3879: 3878:Andrew Wilson 3875: 3867: 3863: 3860: 3856: 3852: 3851: 3850: 3848: 3844: 3840: 3831: 3829: 3828: 3825: 3819: 3813: 3809: 3807: 3803: 3800: 3797: 3794: 3790: 3787: 3784: 3783: 3775: 3774: 3767: 3764: 3763: 3761: 3758: 3751: 3750: 3743: 3741: 3729: 3727: 3721: 3720: 3718: 3717: 3712: 3706: 3705: 3698: 3695: 3694: 3692: 3688: 3682: 3681: 3674: 3671: 3670: 3668: 3666: 3661: 3655: 3654: 3647: 3637: 3633: 3632: 3630: 3626: 3619: 3618: 3611: 3609: 3597: 3595: 3583: 3579: 3578: 3576: 3575: 3570: 3566: 3565: 3561: 3558: 3555: 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