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Scope problems. The only (extremely outdated) estimates in the article for "how many people are actually associated with VHEMT" are a couple hundred people. The movement is (and is backed up by both included sources and more up-to-date ones) essentially a nom de guerre for Knight. This is shoved into
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Significant coverage concerns. The "Ideology" section makes up a substantial proportion of the article (~700 words to a ~250 word lead and ~1000 word remainder across three sections), making the largest part of the article by weight an uncritical and uncontextualized summary of the group's positions.
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that VHEMT's definition of "supporter" - which is what the sentence in the lead paragraph apparently alludes to - does not make a great deal of sense (to me). I suggest that we drop any attempt to use VHEMTs "volunteer"/"supporter" terminology (except for the existing note , which does not attempt to
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Given the subject is an extremely small organization mostly notable for self-promotion, it's tricky to determine a clear route to improvement. FAR seems necessary in this case to introduce uninvolved editors experienced with current FA standards; a close check for source-text integrity is especially
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p.s. I think it's worthwhile to use the fat-ish quote marks in this instance because (1) it emphasizes the fact that this is a quote, which I think is especially important since it's from the primary source, and (2) they add visual interest. If no-one objects in the next 24 hours, I plan to put the
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the statement that "Knight believes that the concepts that he promotes have existed in some form throughout human history" was turned in to a hidden comment and flagged as "trivia". I don't believe that statement to be trivia - Knight is making a significant point that he was not the first to think
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I'm curious about this too. Are those who support the concept of population reduction (but are not voluntarily working towards extinction by not reproducing) rightly characterized as "proponents" or "supporters" of the
Voluntary Human Extinction Movement? Seems like lots of people may support the
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Yes, that never made much sense to me. It's a bit like saying, "If you've never killed anyone, you are a member of the
Voluntary World Peace Movement". On another note, I've always wondered about their view of total extinction. I mean, sure there are a lot of people on the earth now--maybe too
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Claiming that modern humnanism takes "extreme stances" feels like an apology for a death cult. Without a source, this comes off as extremely biased. Mainstream modern humanism typically emphasizes ethical frameworks that promote equality, human rights, and rational problem-solving, often
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According to one
American sociologist, Malthus was the ‘original worst-case thinker’; the sociologist describes worst-case thinking as arguments that are based on the idea that ‘we humans are making some kinds of worst cases more likely and potentially more devastating’ (17). In short,
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parameter. I don't with the current settings, on my screen the quote is split over two lines, wasting vertical space, while simultaneously having unused horizontal space on each side. Using a single line (default width) would be more efficient, without lessening the visual impact.
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Significant tone concerns. This mostly ties in and overlaps with the previous section -- the cherrypicking is particularly egregious -- but several examples stand out as especially tone-related, like the footnotes (A and B in particular) and the huge quotebox girding
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Hey Mitch, thanks for the suggestion. I just previewed the quote box with no width parameter and it stretches it across the width of the page (see below), which to me looks strange, and like a waste of space in the sides of the box. How does it look on your screen?
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the default width for centred is 100%. The space is no more "wasted" with 100% than with any other % - it's just "wasted" in colour! But yes, it is no aesthetic. Probably best (and simplest) to use the default alignment and border, as I have done here.
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which discusses VHEMT. As can be seen from the snipet, it is probably about a survey of VHEMT supporters. It will be solid information to the article, but someone need to read the entire page in a library which is not possible in google snipet.
2010:. As a pull-quote, it seems to me to be perfectly compliant with the aforementioned guideline, and moreover I believe that it improves the article by (1) summing up VHEMT's ideology succinctly, and (2) adding visual interest to the page.
2521:, indicated by the text being in a different colour (typically blue, but it may depend on your browser). Click that link, and your browser should take you to an article about Earth First!, which should answer the question of who they are.
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803:, a collaborative effort to improve Knowledge's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the
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What does the statement that "The 1995 survey found that 36% considered themselves members of Earth First! or had donated to the group in the previous five years"? Who are Earth First, and is that 36% of supporters of
2185:, and thought that perhaps following might be agreeable? I personally quite like the fat-ish quotes, since they add something different, visually, but I guess they don't have to be there - let me know what you think.
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the "Organization and promotion" section and quickly moved away from in favour of a self-promotional statement of "millions of people" -- Knight's guesstimate for "how many people are childfree"? The article tries
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including concern for the environment. Does anyone have access to the book referenced by the phrase "extreme stances" of modern humanism - so we give examples or a link? Otherwise I think it should be removed.
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Very few
English names begin with U (particularly male names). I have seen it suggested that the name Les U. Knight might be a pseudonym indicating "let's unite", but I have no evidence for that either...
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It was a dead link. Following the link gave a page that said "This
Discovery web site is down for scheduled maintenance. We expect service to resume shortly." but it has done for several weeks now, and
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While some proponents of VHEMT agree that extinction is the only solution and refrain from reproducing, others support the concept of population reduction but are not committed to total extinction.
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Notable criticisms of the group are presented in the "Reception" section, there's no real reason the article has to have a section titled "controversy" since that's part of the group's reception.
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makes it seem like we are quoting Knight saying "that is what they are". That's not a direct quote from Knight. "That is what they are" is a paraphrase of a statement of Knight's by a writer for
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initiative to review all featured articles promoted 2015 or earlier has come here. Considering the history of this talk page, it's of relatively little surprise that this response is a
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While some proponents of VHEMT concepts voluntarily work towards extinction by not reproducing, others support some of the movement's ideals but are not committed to total extinction.
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I'm referring to
Chapter 11. Yes, it's about celibacy, but the protagonist responds to the question of whether universal celibacy wouldn't lead to the end of the human race.--
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many--but what if we got the population down to 1,000 people in an
African jungle--would extinction be the only moral option then? But alas, that's a bit out of scope here.
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Knight believes that even if humans become more environmentally friendly, they could still return to environmentally destructive lifestyles and thus should be eliminated.
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Damn, I can't believe I missed that one. I pulled up the preview on Amazon, not a ton about the group--but a couple interesting tidbits I can stick in the article.
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The use of "stating" followed by a quotation may be misleading. Furedi does not state "VHEMT the worst about the human species" or similar. The ref actually says:
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positive quotes from articles that in some cases (like the former) barely discuss the subject, and "rebuts" criticisms with quotes from the movement's founder.
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the text. I've left it where it was for now, but we can move it if appropriate. (Better for it to be visible in the "wrong" place, then not visible at all.)
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It's too vague. It implies - by "while some ... by not reproducing, others ... are not committed to total extinction" - that the "others" (the "supporters")
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ideal/goal - human extinction - I don't see how anyone can logically "support some of the movement's ideals" but be "not committed to total extinction".
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2082:: Format a long quote (more than about 40 words or a few hundred characters, or consisting of more than one paragraph, regardless of length) as a
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The bit about getting a vasectomy as a result of his view of overpopulation is already in the article, not sure if it needs another citation.
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also brought up, without further investigation, the "VHEMT/Knight essentially synonymous" issue by way of how it was presented in the prose.
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Well, I added it--we're a bit heavy on the ELs as it is, but I guess the worst case scenario is that a reviewer will as us to take some out.
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I think his real name is "Les Knight" and he added the middle initial after becoming an activist. I can't recall where I read that though.
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Can it be really true there is no controversy on this subject? (The article does not mention any, and it is presumably comprehensive.) —
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Yeah, I have no problem keeping that in the article, but is there a good place for it? I couldn't think of anywhere it would really flow.
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Well, it's his opinion about their current, and future likelyhood of success, so that does somewhat tie into their reception by others.
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That was added in by someone earlier today, I just removed it. Besides, it says Knight is an
American in the second paragraph anyway.
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2017:, I'd like to find out what other editors think of this. I appreciate hearing any feedback and viewpoints. Thanks very much. --
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would be better. On a related formatting issue, I don't think we need both the external link and the ref link (as visible in
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This avoids the re-paraphrasing, remaining true to our source, without appearing to (erroneously) quote Knight directly.
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2539:", which presumably (in the absence of any indication of a different 1995 survey) is the same one that found 36% etc...
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I read the book and I could not find anything related with human extinction. The novella is particularly about celibacy.
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One might reasonably claim that the paragraph is Knight's response to the group's reception, but then it should appear
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The last three sentences of the lead discuss the group's reception, is there something of note you think is left out?
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I've never really liked those broad quote templates, a smaller box-out might be more aesthetically pleasing (such as
1918:. No article is perfect. I suggest that anyone who disagrees substantially with the FAC evaluation should take it to
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Ok, I'm fine with that as a compromise. I tend to worry a lot about close paraphrasing, perhaps more than I should.
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be mentioned in the article, especially because the reference says "his convictions led him to get a vasectomy"? --
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I agree that the quote is relevant and appropriate. I also agree that the pull quote format is not nice, and that
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As has been stated, the "Reception" section shows various reactions to the VHEM ideology. This article has passed
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OK, but I still think that we gain nothing by re-paraphrasing. How about we simply remove the quotation marks, ie:
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235:. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check
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It was removed on grounds with which I don't agree (no offence intended here, Mark!), i.e. that it fell afoul of
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Frank Furedi also deems VHEMT to be a
Malthusian group, stating that they " the worst about the human species".
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reproduce. Do they or don't they reproduce? Do they think others should reproduce? The sentence doesn't tell us.
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We’re the only species evolved enough to consciously go extinct for the good of all life, or which needs to.
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We’re the only species evolved enough to consciously go extinct for the good of all life, or which needs to.
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We’re the only species evolved enough to consciously go extinct for the good of all life, or which needs to.
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We’re the only species evolved enough to consciously go extinct for the good of all life, or which needs to.
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A lot of the article sources are not high quality RS like interviews with promoters, Spiked, and fox news. (
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says that major controversies should be summarized in the introduction. Someone should do that, please.
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is OK, it's just the one video that is missing. I searched the video site and cannot find that video.
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Perhaps a different percentage might work on your screen? Please let me know. Thanks! Sincerely, --
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appears to be about Knight's opinion, not (as one would expect), other people's opinion of VHEMT.
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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of the concept of voluntary human extinction. That statement should be included in the article.
1739:--I'll check it out. Unfortunately, we could only add it in if sources have connected the two (
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that VHEMT thinks the worst about the human species, but this quote is a long way short of
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Most of the new version looks good, but I don't like this sentence in the lead paragraph:
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It looks like this sentence was an attempt to address my (now archived) Talk page issue
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to present a mailing list as a mass movement, but it's disrupted by the actual numbers.
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general "concept of population reduction" but may have never heard of this movement.
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VHEMT is pronounced "vehement", because, according to Knight, that is what they are.
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Ok, Mitch's suggestions seem fine to me. I'll make the change from his second box.
2535:" referring to a specific survey. The previous paragraph mentions "A 1995 survey
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indicated, given the issues already discovered regarding out-of-context quotes.
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Is his real name available anywhere? And any idea why does he use pseudonym? --
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Knight's statement that the concepts have existed through history is not trivia
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the text describing the reception by others, not at the start of the section.
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worst-case thinking means always thinking the worst about the human species
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1850:, I suggest that we need a citation for it being a "U.S.-based" movement.
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Some commentators agree with population reduction, but not extinction, but
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Recently I added the following directly under the 'Ideology' subheading.
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agree that extinction is the only solution, and refrain from reproducing
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I don't see the issue, but feel free to rephrase the sentence anyway.
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First para of Reception is Knight's opinion, not "reception" by others
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Women's History Month: Create or improve articles for women listed at
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I suggest that we should simply delete this sentence from the lead:
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paraphrase their definitions) and reword sentence something like:
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concepts voluntarily work towards extinction by not reproducing
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About the width percentage, no problem, I'll fix it now. :) --
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http://az.lib.ru/t/tolstoj_lew_nikolaewich/text_0540.shtml#466
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The dark side of the Left: illiberal Egalitarianism in America
1113:. Should this blog be listed in the External Links section? --
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Thanks very much for your replies, Grapple, Mathew and Mitch!
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that they do. I suggest a reword of our article is required.
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campaigning for a dramatic reduction in the human population
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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
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previous request to keep all references (including unused)
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has called itself The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement
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Though not all of VHEMT's members favor total extinction,
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VHEMT's categorization as "supporters" and "volunteers"
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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
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Sorry, I haven't responded, I've been away for a bit.
1644:(I've added the bold here; it's not in the original)
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and modify the Ideology section something like this:
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Voluntary Human Extinction Movement Official Website
2050:). However, I think the quote is a good one to use.
1024:, the video does not mention VHEMT or Knight at all.
714:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
495:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
1997:
856:"volunteers" and "supporters" in the lead paragraph
251:This article appeared on Knowledge's Main Page as
1349:Knight states ... . He believes ... He admits ...
1345:The first paragraph of the "Reception" section:
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
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2437:Voluntary Human Extinction Movement Website
996:removed video: Focus Earth: Too Many People
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2597:This article was promoted in 2012 after a
920:but are not committed to total extinction.
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1602:The Reception section includes this:
1404:Beginning, end, I don't really care.
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2751:Low-importance organization articles
1618:Furedi, Frank (September 12, 2007).
797:This article is within the scope of
708:This article is within the scope of
594:This article is within the scope of
489:This article is within the scope of
1800:" (a quote compendium by Tolstoy):
1794:The arguments are also present in "
1659:a Malthusian environmentalist group
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728:Knowledge:WikiProject Organizations
229:Voluntary Human Extinction Movement
25:Voluntary Human Extinction Movement
23:for discussing improvements to the
2756:WikiProject Organizations articles
2701:Knowledge former featured articles
2233:quote back in in the above format.
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731:Template:WikiProject Organizations
14:
2746:Start-Class organization articles
2569:notice. Issues observed include:
2096:template, which are reserved for
1848:millions of supporters world-wide
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663:Women of the West, Oregon chapter
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833:This article has been rated as
748:This article has been rated as
638:This article has been rated as
529:This article has been rated as
2736:Low-importance Oregon articles
2687:20:51, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
2013:As suggested by our colleague
1844:Being VHEMT is a state of mind
1804:, although that would fit the
1008:from External links, because:
448:It is of interest to multiple
1:
2726:Low-importance Death articles
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1100:03:51, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
1080:Obviously we need to fix the
1042:03:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
915:some of the movement's ideals
800:WikiProject Alternative views
722:and see a list of open tasks.
612:and see a list of open tasks.
503:and see a list of open tasks.
42:Put new text under old text.
2716:Old requests for peer review
1828:US based? Citation requested
1194:Pesca, Mike (May 12, 2006).
1006:Focus Earth: Too Many People
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618:Knowledge:WikiProject Oregon
2731:Start-Class Oregon articles
2549:13:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
2505:21:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
1971:pull-quote under "Ideology"
1922:and list complaints there.
659:Oregon Women of Achievement
653:collaborations of the month
621:Template:WikiProject Oregon
509:Knowledge:WikiProject Death
50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
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1496:University Press of Kansas
1478:University Press of Kansas
1414:07:02, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
1400:06:42, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
1333:06:37, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
1150:Footnote about punctuation
1051:(in response to item 1 of
881:Given that VHEMT only has
839:project's importance scale
819:Alternative Views articles
754:project's importance scale
644:project's importance scale
535:project's importance scale
512:Template:WikiProject Death
384:Featured article candidate
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2647:09:03, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
2625:08:50, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
2360:13:44, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
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1562:08:36, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
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1463:04:56, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
1448:04:19, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
1424:Les U. Knight's vasectomy
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1378:16:10, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
1363:14:35, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
1311:16:10, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
1296:14:27, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
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239:) and why it was removed.
80:Be welcoming to newcomers
2741:WikiProject Oregon pages
2527:Yes - the article says "
2511:"Who are Earth First..."
868:There are two problems:
253:Today's featured article
2270:I suggest deleting the
415:Former featured article
403:Featured article review
233:former featured article
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237:the nomination archive
75:avoid personal attacks
2672:What extreme stances?
2531:1995 survey...", ie "
734:organization articles
308:Articles for deletion
289:Articles for deletion
100:Neutral point of view
2517:in the article is a
2236:Thanks very much. --
1716:similar argument in
1032:no longer applies.)
1022:previously mentioned
899:previously mentioned
346:Good article nominee
327:Good article nominee
105:No original research
1846:" and VHEMT claims
1737:The Kreutzer Sonata
1718:The Kreutzer Sonata
1598:Frank Fured "quote"
1227:. December 17, 1998
1808:article better. --
1620:"Environmentalism"
1498:, 1998, p. 383. --
1490:Richard J. Ellis,
1484:The reference is:
597:WikiProject Oregon
444:content assessment
396:September 30, 2023
264:Article milestones
255:on March 24, 2012.
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2076:WP:MOSQUOTE
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1942:70.59.24.75
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980:Mark Arsten
962:Mark Arsten
440:Start-class
365:Peer review
301:May 3, 2010
148:free images
31:not a forum
2695:Categories
2576:incredibly
2541:Mitch Ames
2400:References
2368:Hey Mitch,
2352:Mitch Ames
2277:Mitch Ames
2210:Thanks! --
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1852:Mitch Ames
1797:Путь жизни
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1722:CaritasUbi
1679:Mitch Ames
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1355:Mitch Ames
1325:Mitch Ames
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1247:Mitch Ames
1231:January 7,
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925:Mitch Ames
805:discussion
602:U.S. state
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1120:Explosion
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88:if needed
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