1179:, a GA, is unfair. I have no intention of nominating these for GA, not in the near future. Another issue with the comparison is that football and basketball amateurs, in high school or coverage, receive more coverage than baseball amateurs in newspapers. Regarding the national newspapers, Krizan has USA Today coverage, but coverage does not need to be in national newspapers to satisfy GNG. I'll try to fill them out a little more today, but I agree with the need for a second opinion. The good thing about this extended review is that one or two of them might be approaching C class by now, but I believe with Tony's prodding me to add more, all of these four articles (remember I asked to add
945:. These are all articles that I have done. Basically, a guy who is a college All-American, in basketball or football seems to have a paper trail in the media. The results you are presenting suggests that they baseball All-Americans are a notch below in terms of notability. Personally, I don't want to nominate any of these for AFD due to my own belief of notability. I think they would generally be failed. I don't research high school baseball. Are there recruiting ratings like I have been able to find for basketball and baseball. A college guy that I have done that might be suseptible at AFD due to completeness would be
978:
953:, to find details about his college career. Basically, what I am trying to tell you by example, is you have to dig to find the content. I specialize in guys from Chicago and from the University of Michigan and have learned how to use resources covering those jurisdictions to find sufficient content that a lot of editors might have trouble building into notable articles. The guys you are going to find press about most easily are going to be those playing in state championship games.
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where you should describe his travails in Spain and his fathers employment. You need more than game summaries for GNG. I pointed you to all kinds of examples of more than routine coverage of college exploits. Don't think of them as GAs, but rather fairly AFD-proof articles. You have to do more than cover a couple of important game results and statistics in college. Fill out the article some other way. I don't do college baseball. I spent some time at
696:. I consider Krizan's NCAA record sufficient to get him by. For any of these guys, if you can find sufficient high school content to make the case that based on the fact that a biographical sketch can be made from content in the media, I would allow any of them to be kept. I.E., find a couple state championships, high school All-american, high school first team All-state mentions for each and it would tip the scales in my mind.--
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As this discussion has stalled to a halt, I have started AfDs for all three of the articles. I am not doing this out of a particular desire for them to be deleted, but I think we need to generate a proper discussion on the subject in the appropriate place. DYK is not the forum to decide if an article
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These articles are biographies, and things like statistics and records are biographical information, so I'm not understanding your meaning here. What I see is "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" for these three players, which I believe mean they would stand
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last night trying to figure out how I would do a baseball prospect. They had a starting 9 (plus 25 others) feature and state-by-state teams. I don't know if there are archives of these things. Any All-American has some impressive results. The question is whether each deserves a permanent place in
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Okay, based on the voting that's gone on and slowed down, there is not consensus to add college baseball All-Americans to NSPORTS. That means these articles would have to stand on their own. After further consideration, I can see your point on Roth and Martin. I think Roth might be fine, but I'm on
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Basically, you have one high school sentence for each player. What WP needs is sufficient biographical detail to feel like whether or not he becomes a successful pro, there was a time when he was a notable enough athlete that you could get a complete biographical sketch in the media. I was hoping
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I think you misunderstand GNG. It does not include routine mentions in articles about the team. It is for biographical features and such. Game summaries that document that so and so had a hit streak or a stat page saying they had so many of a given stat does not pass GNG. Every college AA has the
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it looks like if you want to fill in his high school career you will need access to the
Greenville News. Clearly he got a lot of coverage, but you do not present that here. You have to work hard to confirm notability when it is not automatic. I assume all of these articles could be expanded, but
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In all honoesty, I don't have a problem with having articles like this for guys in college. Several years ago, they use to have a rule that almost-notable college athletes could have pages. They had one year after graduating to meet pro notability requirements. I actually create a lot of football
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are 9s or 10s. You can get GNG without them. All the articles I have pointed to above are articles where the depth of the article would confer GNG. College world series recaps are sort of routine. Look at the articles I pointed you to. They show that the national press views him as a subject
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I see you have found a lot of the
Greenville News stuff as I recheck your sourece. I can't believe that it is complete. Please tell me the details about his high school All-American career. I see an article mentioning his 2008 Rawlings Preseason All-American Baseball Team. You point to a 2007
1175:: I could probably add more to their high school careers with a little more searching, but a lot of the articles that come up through Google News require subscriptions, and I am literally taking information that I can see in free previews. Also, comparing these three start class articles to
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As high schoolers, Martin played in a local all-star game (that was already in the article), and I added that he played for the football team. Roth, meanwhile, played for the basketball team and was named a high school All-American. I'll see what else I can add after my afternoon meetings.
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athletes that aren't any more notable than these guys. Based on the old standards, both Barnes and Martin would need to be called up to the bigs by the end of the current college baseball season or be subject to deletion. Roth would be allowable. Based on current standards, none pass
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an international encyclopedia. Any and all of your guys could be flushed away in a week at an AFD. Let's get a 2nd opinion and see where we are headed. The fact that I don't want to AFD these guys doesn't mean they should be kept on WP. I have a soft spot for college All-Americans.--
977:. Basically, you have to dig as if each guy is never going to be a pro. Try and fill in his story as completely as possible so that if he busts as a pro he has a chance of survival. I saw one of those talked about his father finding a new job. Mention that. Based on
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The source does not verify "drafted Krizan in the eighth round (257th overall) of the 2011 Major League
Baseball Draft". Nor does it verify "He signed with the Tigers and made his professional debut with the West Michigan Whitecaps of the Class-A Midwest
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Please check all three articles for close paraphrasing and failed verifications. I will be closing this DYK nomination as "no consensus to promote" if I see concerns in a subsequent review because the nomination has been open for a while now.
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I'm scratching my head in bewilderment over the "two out of three" requirement. Reading these articles, I can't tell how many All-America teams each one made -- even the Jason Krizan article mentions only one All
America selection.
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After thinking about this for some time, I realize that if I am not going to AFD these myself, I should treat them as if they are notable. Am I putting the editor through the ringer asking him to make the subjects' notability more
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Can we revisit this now? Krizan is kept, so can you give that the checkmark for it's own hook? Two of the other three have been kept, but it looks like Cody Marin may end up merged. The second hook could just be Barnes and Roth.
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was a high school All-American that is one thing. If I tell you at least 7 high school all-American teams he was on that is another. It is up to you to prove that the encyclopedia would not be complete if we removed your guy's
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the fence about it. I adamantly believe that Krizan and Barnes are notable. So, I'm willing to withdraw Martin, while adding Barnes. I'd also consider withdrawing Roth, but I think it might still be worth keeping. –
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Tony, based on your idea that you should be named to two of the three All-America teams to pass muster, Krizan would make it but Roth and Martin wouldn't. I'll still fight for those two, for now anyway though. I just created
1590:(ec) I understand. Since noone was jumping at my request for a second opinion, AfD is probably the way to go. It is my hope that all three will pass, and then we can move forward with the DYK. Up thread, I asked to include
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up to AfD. I'm in no rush though, we can wait for consensus on NSPORT, which appears close to a done deal. Maybe in the meantime I can write a few more All
American articles and fold them into this nomination. –
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An editor at the Krizan AfD just brought up a good point, his doubles record might make a better hook than being an All-American. So, if we decide to go forward with all four articles for DYK, maybe we should do two
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I am not trying to coach you to produce GAs. I am trying to coach you to produce AFD-proof articles. In terms of GNG, national press carries more weight than local press. I view
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In order to finish this off, can we promote Barnes and Roth, which were kept at AfD, while I withdraw Martin, which appears likely to close as a merge? –
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is good to go. Length and date both check out fine, and the hook is suitably referenced. Spotchecks reveal no copyvio or close paraphrasing concerns. Good to go.
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that you have not figured out how to do so. I am not going to write these four articles for you. If you want them to be AFD proof, you have to fill them in.--
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Well all three articles pass for length and age. The hook is sourced. If the discussion results in these being
Notable, the nomination can go forward.--
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I'll look at Roth for example. If you want to convince me his article is a keeper, begin by showing me he is notable in the national press. Cite
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I also ask TonyTheTiger to review the articles again and nominate any of them he believes fail notability for deletion. The articles all pass
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Here are two
Chicago hoops guys who never made it as pros that have pretty good high school depth making their articles seem more robust:
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If one or more of these articles get deleted, then we simply remove the red link from the hook. How does that sound? –
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article regarding his A-A status. Fill out all of his high school All-American details in the prose of the article. If I tell you
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I added a source for his draft status, and clarified the sentence about West
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in the hook. To include that, you should probably AfD it, too. (ec: I see Tony remembered that I tried to add it.) –
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Never mind the need to withdraw, the AfD closed as merged, so now we're good to go with Barnes and Roth only. –
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isn't one. If you want me to support any of your other guys show me a high school sketch. Maybe you can find stuff at
971:(I found those using the google search term "Michael Roth" baseball site:usatoday.com). Show me some ESPN like these:
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with sufficient coverage from multiple reliable sources. Whether the coverage is routine and the subjects thus fail
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as the two extremes. Parker is considered a can't miss pro, while Van Bergen is likely to never be a notable pro.
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Ping everyone who participated about the two out of three. Ask them directly if they would be willing to give a
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P.S. One region of the country where it is easy to fill in early career content is
Baltimore. THe
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to add being a First Team All
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Thanks, that's good advice. I added some more info on the high school careers of Roth and Martin.
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kind of coverage mentioned in these articles. I am not convinced that they would survive AFD.--
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below.
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decision. Then, we can revisit the status of this nomination and what it should include.--
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Is that really necessary? GNG supercedes NSPORT, and these articles meet GNG. –
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above. What I truly would want to support permanent notability is something like
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P.S. If you want to see some non-pro athletes that I have gotten by GNG look at
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
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Can you clarify how you propose to amend Hook 2 (debold or remove Martin)?--
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is notable or not, AfD is. Let's revisit this nom when the AfDs are sorted.
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has great high school sports coverage that is easily accessible online. See
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I remain hesitant to approve these because of the dubious notability.--
47:), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page.
828:. He signed with the Tigers and made his professional debut with the
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for their non-trivial coverage in independent sources. –
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Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)#College_baseball_All-Americans
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Let's see where the discussion goes. Have you advertised it at
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Michael Roth (baseball), Jason Krizan, Cody Martin (baseball)
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on a scale and in terms of high school and college sports.
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drafted Krizan in the eighth round (257th overall) of the
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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Michael Roth (baseball)
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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Matt Barnes (baseball)
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upthread) should be sufficient for DYK. –
524:The discussion linked above seems to have stalled.
173:I'd say NCAA Division I with two separate links.--
929:you could at least come up with something like
1721:Krizan promoted. The other three need review.
917:is outside the scope of this DYK nomination.
217:). Self nom at 22:03, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
8:
1272:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Jason Krizan
1024:for example. I found half decent stuff for
49:No further edits should be made to this page
296:As of now, no. But there is discussion at
1885:Passed DYK nominations from February 2012
1843:Finally, Length, Date and ref all good.--
1623:National Collegiate Athletic Association
848:"Dragons' road trip ends with setback"
535:I'm trying to revive it. –
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692:. The challenge is whether any pass
750:for upperclass college players).--
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18:Template:Did you know nominations
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628:I'll fix that now. –
154:: Should the hook also say it's
373:) 02:13, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
312:) 20:20, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
32:Please do not modify this page.
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1793:Remove Martin. –
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45:Knowledge talk:Did you know
37:this nomination's talk page
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1484:not currently nominated.--
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1061:Anthony Davis (basketball)
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84:( Article history links:
147:West Cornwall Bryophytes
1429:Relisted. –
1360:Relisted. –
911:Knowledge:Verifiability
830:West Michigan Whitecaps
258:Do these articles pass
89:Michael Roth (baseball)
41:the article's talk page
1654:were named First Team
1592:Matt Barnes (baseball)
1482:Matt Barnes (baseball)
1181:Matt Barnes (baseball)
657:I'll concede Krizan.--
556:Matt Barnes (baseball)
483:What's going on here?
127:were named First Team
99:Cody Martin (baseball)
1375:Merged. –
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209:Created/expanded by
915:Knowledge:Notability
853:Springfield News-Sun
1308:Kept. –
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1695:the hook for
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1675:–
1673:
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1657:
1656:All-Americans
1653:
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943:Jabari Parker
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728:Jabari Parker
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129:All-Americans
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1845:TonyTheTiger
1818:Michael Roth
1816:
1810:
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1765:TonyTheTiger
1702:
1698:Jason Krizan
1696:
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1643:
1639:Michael Roth
1637:
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1618:Jason Krizan
1616:
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1554:TonyTheTiger
1520:TonyTheTiger
1486:TonyTheTiger
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1397:TonyTheTiger
1328:TonyTheTiger
1276:TonyTheTiger
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1214:
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1140:TonyTheTiger
1134:
1104:TonyTheTiger
1066:TonyTheTiger
1030:TonyTheTiger
1015:
984:TonyTheTiger
957:
951:AnnArbor.com
874:
860:February 15,
858:. Retrieved
851:
811:Jason Krizan
787:
752:TonyTheTiger
745:
739:
698:TonyTheTiger
659:TonyTheTiger
643:
580:TonyTheTiger
575:
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496:TonyTheTiger
437:TonyTheTiger
383:TonyTheTiger
333:TonyTheTiger
264:TonyTheTiger
226:TonyTheTiger
224:Reviewing.--
207:
175:TonyTheTiger
151:
138:
122:
118:Jason Krizan
116:
112:Michael Roth
110:
94:Jason Krizan
57:
55:
48:
31:
28:
1825:First Team
1821:were named
1812:Matt Barnes
1809:: ... that
1723:Crisco 1492
1651:Cody Martin
1645:Matt Barnes
1625:record for
1138:apparent?--
1100:Kit Mueller
1096:Rob Pelinka
979:this search
939:Royce White
526:Crisco 1492
485:Crisco 1492
124:Cody Martin
62:Crisco 1492
1862:WP:CHICAGO
1830:Division I
1782:WP:CHICAGO
1571:WP:CHICAGO
1537:WP:CHICAGO
1503:WP:CHICAGO
1463:WP:CHICAGO
1414:WP:CHICAGO
1345:WP:CHICAGO
1293:WP:CHICAGO
1239:WP:CHICAGO
1157:WP:CHICAGO
1121:WP:CHICAGO
1083:WP:CHICAGO
1064:article.--
1047:WP:CHICAGO
1022:Ryan Boyle
1001:WP:CHICAGO
935:Trey Burke
769:WP:CHICAGO
744:(formerly
715:WP:CHICAGO
690:WP:ATHLETE
676:WP:CHICAGO
597:WP:CHICAGO
513:WP:CHICAGO
454:WP:CHICAGO
400:WP:CHICAGO
350:WP:CHICAGO
281:WP:CHICAGO
260:WP:ATHLETE
243:WP:CHICAGO
192:WP:CHICAGO
1807:ALT Final
1636:... that
1615:... that
1205:USA Today
959:USA Today
747:ESPN RISE
109:... that
1879:Category
1835:in 2011?
1795:Muboshgu
1752:Muboshgu
1741:Muboshgu
1677:Muboshgu
1664:Muboshgu
1658:in 2011?
1596:Muboshgu
1431:Muboshgu
1377:Muboshgu
1362:Muboshgu
1310:Muboshgu
1268:FYI see
1185:Muboshgu
894:Muboshgu
791:Muboshgu
736:Obi Ezeh
647:Muboshgu
630:Muboshgu
560:Muboshgu
537:Muboshgu
418:Muboshgu
367:Muboshgu
306:Muboshgu
211:Muboshgu
139:Reviewed
131:in 2011?
70:Finally
58:promoted
1866:WP:FOUR
1786:WP:FOUR
1705:Harrias
1627:doubles
1575:WP:FOUR
1552:Kept.--
1541:WP:FOUR
1507:WP:FOUR
1467:WP:FOUR
1418:WP:FOUR
1349:WP:FOUR
1297:WP:FOUR
1261:Harrias
1243:WP:FOUR
1216:ESPN HS
1161:WP:FOUR
1125:WP:FOUR
1087:WP:FOUR
1051:WP:FOUR
1005:WP:FOUR
873:League.
773:WP:FOUR
741:ESPN HS
719:WP:FOUR
680:WP:FOUR
601:WP:FOUR
572:Support
517:WP:FOUR
458:WP:FOUR
404:WP:FOUR
354:WP:FOUR
285:WP:FOUR
247:WP:FOUR
196:WP:FOUR
152:Comment
1648:, and
1634:Hook 2
1621:set a
1613:Hook 1
1608:hooks:
1444:Kept--
1028:too.--
919:Cunard
878:Cunard
694:WP:GNG
615:Orlady
576:Oppose
433:WP:MLB
302:WP:GNG
145:, and
121:, and
1200:WP:RS
1173:Reply
16:<
1827:NCAA
1815:and
1799:talk
1756:talk
1745:talk
1727:talk
1681:talk
1668:talk
1600:talk
1435:talk
1381:talk
1366:talk
1314:talk
1210:ESPN
1208:and
1189:talk
1098:and
923:talk
898:talk
882:talk
862:2012
820:The
795:talk
730:and
651:talk
634:talk
619:talk
564:talk
541:talk
530:talk
489:talk
422:talk
371:talk
310:talk
215:talk
160:NCAA
66:talk
1858:BIO
1778:BIO
1567:BIO
1533:BIO
1499:BIO
1459:BIO
1410:BIO
1341:BIO
1289:BIO
1235:BIO
1153:BIO
1117:BIO
1102:.--
1079:BIO
1043:BIO
997:BIO
941:or
809:in
765:BIO
711:BIO
672:BIO
593:BIO
509:BIO
450:BIO
435:?--
396:BIO
346:BIO
277:BIO
262:?--
239:BIO
188:BIO
162:or
60:by
43:or
1881::
1868:)
1788:)
1642:,
1577:)
1543:)
1518:--
1509:)
1469:)
1420:)
1395:--
1351:)
1326:--
1299:)
1274:--
1245:)
1163:)
1127:)
1089:)
1053:)
1007:)
974:,
968:,
965:,
937:,
850:.
775:)
721:)
682:)
613:--
603:)
519:)
460:)
406:)
356:)
287:)
249:)
198:)
158:,
141::
115:,
78:(
39:,
1864:/
1860:/
1856:/
1854:C
1852:/
1850:T
1848:(
1797:(
1784:/
1780:/
1776:/
1774:C
1772:/
1770:T
1768:(
1754:(
1743:(
1725:(
1679:(
1666:(
1629:?
1598:(
1573:/
1569:/
1565:/
1563:C
1561:/
1559:T
1557:(
1539:/
1535:/
1531:/
1529:C
1527:/
1525:T
1523:(
1505:/
1501:/
1497:/
1495:C
1493:/
1491:T
1489:(
1465:/
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1457:/
1455:C
1453:/
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1449:(
1433:(
1416:/
1412:/
1408:/
1406:C
1404:/
1402:T
1400:(
1379:(
1364:(
1347:/
1343:/
1339:/
1337:C
1335:/
1333:T
1331:(
1312:(
1295:/
1291:/
1287:/
1285:C
1283:/
1281:T
1279:(
1241:/
1237:/
1233:/
1231:C
1229:/
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1225:(
1187:(
1159:/
1155:/
1151:/
1149:C
1147:/
1145:T
1143:(
1123:/
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1107:(
1085:/
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1069:(
1049:/
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987:(
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896:(
880:(
864:.
836:.
813:.
793:(
771:/
767:/
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761:C
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709:/
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701:(
678:/
674:/
670:/
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666:/
664:T
662:(
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591:/
589:C
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583:(
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562:(
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503:/
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499:(
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420:(
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369:(
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229:(
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194:/
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186:/
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182:/
180:T
178:(
166:?
104:)
82:)
64:(
51:.
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