Knowledge

596:<Norma> considering that the arbcom doesn't provide any guidance, the board provides no guidance, and that any legal problem involving wikipedia in anyway, even if it was only used by the two parties to contact each other, is a potential cause for things like records to be pulled from the foundation, I am left with the opinion, that the option to ensuring the best interests of the foundation is the... 593:<privatemusings> (i totally understand that this is a very difficult situation.... please don't worry about saying 'I just don't know' - I'm just hoping that there might be a way through to help an editor enjoy useful en wiki editing.... :-) ) 230:<privatemusings> for me the key thing is actually quite basic.... if Guido has been blocked for making a legal threat.. and if he has also retracted it / committed to conform with policy... is there a basis for unblock...? 566:<Jeane> then, as we've said at least five times, he needs to make that perfectly clear without any ambiguity. You keep quoting one passage from him, yes, but Norma has noticed that it's not entirely clear at times 533:<privatemusings> "It would be quite possible for two users engaged in a legal dispute relating to another project to continue editing here if they kept the dispute off the wiki and in the proper legal channels." 380:<Norma> My problem is that "The legal action was only triggered by his response, sent to me by email." seems to indicate that he thinks because it was in response to the email, not on wiki it doesn't count 722:<Norma> ask me once he clarifies the situation :) I think the best option is to go to arbcom, and if they reject it, then take it to AN. Possibly that will result in going to arbcom anyway 758:<privatemusings> I was sort of hoping that if Guido enjoyed contributing usefully on en that it might help him build bridges back to contributing usefully across the wikimedia projects.... 236:<privatemusings> you guys are probably aware that the chap Guido has legally threatened on nl wiki, Oscar, is an ex-board member, nl arbcom member, and all round very nice wiki person..... 134:<privatemusings> just to clarify the arb thing... (link in a moment) - they seemed to indicate pretty clearly that a threat on another wiki doesn't impact on a decision to block on en..... 455:<privatemusings> "I have no desire to make a legal threat on en:Knowledge, nor to engage in any aspects of external disputes here. Guido den Broeder (talk) 23:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)" 356:<privatemusings> "I have no desire to make a legal threat on en:Knowledge, nor to engage in any aspects of external disputes here. Guido den Broeder (talk) 23:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)" 269:<privatemusings> "Re Privatemusings: no, a dispute occuring entirely on another Wikimedia project will, in most cases, not be of concern to the English Knowledge" - thebainer... 584:<privatemusings> Norma... the trouble with requiring clarification from arbcom, is they were just asked for it, and decided it wasn't appropriate for them to consider... 509:<privatemusings> "the latter briefly announcing he will sue for slander, illegal appropriation of authority, violation of copyrights as well as encouraging these crimes" 587:<privatemusings> Jeane... I think you're saying that if Guido clears up the fact that he wishes to pursue no legal issue relating to en then he could be unblocked? 524:<privatemusings> "Re Privatemusings: no, a dispute occuring entirely on another Wikimedia project will, in most cases, not be of concern to the English Knowledge." 218:<privatemusings> I feel like I'm pretty well acquainted with the context now - and am happy to answer any questions you guys might have as best I can...... 446:<Norma> In a legal threat situation, I am always inclined to block liberally, because it has the very real potential to cause all sorts of problems 335:<privatemusings> Norma - I think I get ya... the issue is pretty clouded, and you can't discern whether or not there is a current legal threat? 707:<privatemusings> I think we've probably gotten as far as we can usefully in one go... I'll certainly give your comments further thought.... 338:<Norma> I think it is possible for him to be unblock if he simply posts a clear redaction of the threat, and indicates that it is settled 452:<Jeane> any sort of legal threat, stated, implied, or suspected, must lead to a block until it is fully and unconditionally retracted 50:<privatemusings> have you got maybe 10 minutes (maybe more!) to take a look at a difficult situation - and maybe talk a bit about it? 800:<privatemusings> thanks heaps Norma, and Jeane.... I think we've covered some good ground - and that's probably enough for now.... 734:<privatemusings> "I have no desire to make a legal threat on en:Knowledge, nor to engage in any aspects of external disputes here" 461:<Norma> it is best for everyone involved if there is a block whenever there is a legal problem that in some way involves wikipedia 635:<Jeane> PM, there really is no other way of looking at it and I'm tired of you trying to wheedle your way to an answer you want 728:<privatemusings> Norma. I think I'd better leave arbcom alone for a while! - it was only rejected earlier this week :-) 359:<privatemusings> he's stuck to that very well, in my book (having previously been kinda going off a bit on his talk page...) 626:<Jeane> therefore, he could be blocked for a legal threat elsewhere, if it's in the best interests of WP and the Foundation 785:<privatemusings> "But what it boils down to is the interpretation of the "this is your final chance" comment from Guido" 689:<Norma> by wikipedia I mean any of the wikimedia foundation projects, I don't care if that is the mongo wikinews :) 392:<privatemusings> do you think it's important he demonstrates that he's understood what was wrong a bit more in some way? 386:<privatemusings> Norma - is it your view that he needs to do more than state his wish to fully comply with the policy? 104:<Jeane> privatemusings, if the arbcom has refused to lift a block, there isn't much we can do about it. Norma's right 737:<Norma> well, considering that, perhaps it would be best to wait until this legal issue is resolved, if it exists 482:<privatemusings> which is basically that Guido feels Oscar said something actionable in some forum or other..... 284:<privatemusings> anywhoo.. my reading of this recent discussion is that they don't see it as an arb matter...... 86:<Jeane> if they're threatening legal action against the foundation, they remain blocked until they are retracted 473:<privatemusings> he's certainly committed firmly to making no legal threats, not engaging in dispute on en..... 299:<privatemusings> btw... I too felt that this was a clear case for arbcom.... so we agreed.... but they didn't! 656:<privatemusings> no - you're saying lots of different things... though I understand you may not recognise it. 470:<Norma> I don't think I am quite clear on what the legal problem is between oscar and he, what is it exactly? 431:<privatemusings> well this is where the bit about him committing to obey our policy from now on comes in.... 668:<Norma> umm, I'll let you guys discuss that, but I really have to go soon. Just to restate my views shortly 416:<privatemusings> but I felt that it had been clarified that that was not relevant to the en situation...... 557:<privatemusings> however, per our arbs (and others) - that in and of itself is not a block rationale on en 419:<privatemusings> (it's a bit of a Catch-22 to ask him to state on en his intentions elsewhere therefore!) 677:<Norma> If he does, and it involves anything that has happened on wikiepdia in anyway -> stay blocked 632:<privatemusings> but regardless - he has committed to not issue, or engage in any legal matter on en.... 551:<privatemusings> it kinda boils down to this.. if you ask Guido on .nl 'are you gonna use legal threats' 320:<Jeane> as we've already stated, we're not going to override arbcom. You can't ask Dad when Mom says no. 256: 181: 731:<Norma> the best option of course would be for him to say "I do not intend to legally threaten anyone" 467:<privatemusings> I think he was quite fired up at that point... but I hope it's sunk in a bit now... 83:<privatemusings> it relates to legal threats on other wikis... so it's a very (very) hot potato..... 623:<privatemusings> I think Guido may be of the perspective that no legal threat was issued on en.... 563:<privatemusings> Guido on en has stated "I have no desire to make a legal threat on en:Knowledge," 791:<privatemusings> ..presumably so the arbs could then clarify cross wiki legal threat issues..... 515:<Norma> ok, well if he intends to, or claims to intend to sue anyone about anything on wikipedia 608:<privatemusings> in a very friendly way... could you explain which policy Guido is blocked per? 398:<privatemusings> as oppose to committing to not make or engage in any threats from here on out? 806:<Norma> feel free to contact me, here, my talk page, via email, I'll be happy to look in to it 788:<privatemusings> "The case is only worth taking if the comment was not in violation of WP:NLT" 713:<privatemusings> quick final thought... next step is AN discussion or appeal to arbcom, Norma? 101:<privatemusings> heh.... well if you've got a few min.s I'd like to hear your views anyways... 719:<Jeane> PM: if you insist on continuing this, most likely. Although from what I can tell, you 686:<privatemusings> Norma... I think this is clear - but by 'wikipedia' you mean both en and nl? 650:<Jeane> this discussion really gets you nowhere, as we're going to keep saying the same thing 578:<privatemusings> okey dokey.. I'm getting two slightly different pieces of advice.. I think! 413:<privatemusings> I'm fairly certain that he has legal intentions relating to the nl issue... 17: 776:<Norma> but if he intends to sue oscar over anything that remotely could involve wikipedia 647:<privatemusings> and do feel free to disengage... I know this isn't fun, or easy at all.. 344:<Norma> but looking at the talk page, he seems to be wildly changing directions at time 131:<privatemusings> ..this page will probably take at least 5 mins to review.... :-) 77:<privatemusings> it's been discussed at AN/I and an arb case was rejected recently.... 56:<privatemusings> it's about a pretty complicated block on a dutch chap named Guido.... 665:<privatemusings> first let me say I really appreciate you guys taking a look at this 332:<Jeane> until it is very clear everything is settled, he stays blocked indefinitely 326:<Norma> privatemusings: looking at it, I can't really tell what Guido's position is 404:<Norma> I think he needs to clearly explain what, if any, his legal intentions are 263:<privatemusings> "be unblocked as soon as any legal matters are resolved. Kirill" 65:<privatemusings> thanks heaps :-) - Norma - could you lend a hand too maybe? 641:<Jeane> he is not going to be unblocked without a full-length on-wiki discussion 293:<Norma> it seems very convoluted, as far as actually redacting the legal threat 224:-->| Tiptoety (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/tiptoety) has joined #wikipedia-en-unblock 773:<Norma> I think that the question is not if he intends to make a legal threat 611:<Jeane> until it is very clear that all threats are removed, he stays blocked 170:<Norma> thats ok, it changes things a little, depending on what that issue is 560:<Norma> until the arbitration committee finds, as a whole, that this is true 464:<privatemusings> I think that's what Carcharoth was explaining to Guido..... 716:<Norma> and let me know if he does, I would be happy to look in to it again 512:<privatemusings> that's the detail of Guido's legal issue with Oscar on .nl 363: 192: 126: 440:<privatemusings> (a committement to obey all guidelines and policies etc.) 202: 152:<Norma> legal threats are against the foundation, which enwiki is part of 479:<privatemusings> Norma.. I only know what has been mentioned publicly... 188:<privatemusings> the current situation is best reflected (I think) here; 683:* Jeane 's views are exactly the same as Norma's. The policy is crystal clear 488:<privatemusings> likely the .nl wiki, or arbcom processes, I guess....? 434:<privatemusings> my feeling is that that should probably be sufficient? 368:<privatemusings> ^ I think that's the best summing up of the status quo 215:* privatemusings realises he's dumping quite alot of work out there - thanks! 211: 185:<privatemusings> actually that's a pretty good place to start also..... 146:<privatemusings> I'll let you intepret for yourself though.... :-) 671:<Norma> If Guido intends no legal action against anyone -> unblock 542:<Jeane> it's not entirely on another project if we're dealing with it 504: 485:<Norma> well, you are much more informed than I about this situation 74:<privatemusings> I think enough is on wiki to move things forward... 782:<privatemusings> that tallies quite well with what jpgordon said... 377:<privatemusings> I thought I'd get some advice here first maybe.... 680:<Norma> I think he needs to clarify that before we take any action 278:<Mortensen> he's a good judge of such things in a non-arb context 599:<Norma> ...block the user, until this issue is settled elsewhere 410:<Norma> not simply if /he considers/ what he said a legal threat 401:<privatemusings> (which is what I read him as clearly doing...) 701:<Jeane> the NLT policy exists mainly to protect the foundation 698:<Norma> my wikipedia bias is showing there I am afraid :) 275:<privatemusings> (I'll let you guys read and interpret it now! 95:<Norma> While I do occasionally pop in and do arbitrary things 260:<privatemusings> see arbs comments at base of that thread.... 62:* Jeane is writing an email at present, but will listen shortly.... 674:<Jeane> aye, it is 1 in the morning where I currently am, PM 527:<Jeane> then how else are we supposed to read that, exactly? 201: 158:<privatemusings> this is a legal issue with another user.... 245:<privatemusings> they explicitly stated they don't need to? 110:<privatemusings> no - they haven't refused to lift a block! 662:<privatemusings> sure... but lets take this nice 'n slow.. 545:<privatemusings> we're dealing with his current block, no? 407:<Jeane> which, if he wants to be unblocked, should be none 364: 193: 89:<privatemusings> I should link you to the arbs comments... 749:<Jeane> because as we've said, it involves the Foundation 743:<Jeane> then, of course, he gets unblocked here and on nl 341:<Jeane> we can't determine if the legal threat is removed 281:<privatemusings> ah... I think he's a bit busy right now! 92:<privatemusings> they've reviewed this pretty clearly.... 617:<privatemusings> here's another way of looking at it.... 296:<Jeane> a legal threat, is, very clearly, a legal threat 210: 704:<privatemusings> thanks for your time Norma and Jeane.. 395:<Jeane> he needs to retract any threat made, or implied 350:<Norma> though that was before you arrived to help him 491:<privatemusings> hang on... oscar replied at meta.... 272:<Mortensen> PM, you could ask Kirill at his talk page 248:<privatemusings> (at least that's my reading of it..) 113:<Norma> maybe you should just give us the links first 797:<Norma> so thanks for bringing forward your concerns 794:<Norma> legal threats should be handled case by case 779:<Norma> that is the question I need answered :) 602:<Norma> though as you say, it is a complex situation 422:<Jeane> not really. the situation overflowed to here 308:<Jeane> I did not say it was a clear case for arbcom 242:<Mortensen> I'd say Arbcom would need to judge that 143:<Jeane> aye. a legal threat is still a legal threat 725:<Jeane> 've done most everything (stupid keyboard) 710:<Norma> I would ask guido to clarify the situation 107:<Jeane> we can help explain it, but not reverse it 620:<Jeane> thebainer does not make policy by himself 764:<Jeane> a full discussion may see it another way 505: 290:<Jeane> my reading of it is that policy is clear 255: 227:=-= Mode #wikipedia-en-unblock +v Tiptoety by ChanServ 180: 26:*ChanServ* Unblock conversation logs may be published 629:<privatemusings> he may be wrong about that.... 323:<Mortensen> certainly without an ANI discussion 692:<Jeane> both are controlled by the Foundation. 653:<Jeane> he stays blocked until further notice. 548:<privatemusings> not the legal matter per se.. 539:<Norma> thebainer does not make policy however 518:<Norma> we would probably prefer him blocked 500:<privatemusings> to oscar's reply on meta... 389:<privatemusings> sorry.. that reads wrong... 353:<privatemusings> what did you think of this; 127: 30: 383:<privatemusings> see what you guys thought? 371:<Mortensen> PM you could write up a request 329:<Norma> which means we can't really unblock 317:<Mortensen> PM, I doubt anyone will unblock 314:<privatemusings> (responding to Mortensen) 197:<privatemusings> this is worth a look too; 575:<Jeane> sorry for finishing your sentence 266:<privatemusings> for example... etc. etc. 161:<privatemusings> not with the foundation. 140:<privatemusings> they seem to disagree... 53:<Jeane> that *is* what this channel's for 71:<Norma> what is is on wiki, email, what? 767:<Jeane> but you need a full discussion 752:<Jeane> and by extension, all projects 530:<privatemusings> that's thebainer..... 494:<privatemusings> grabbing the link.... 8: 425:<Jeane> therefore, out policy applied 239:<privatemusings> just for context.... 638:<privatemusings> no wheedling here! 605:* Jeane is saying the same thing as Norma 287:<privatemusings> whadda you reckon? 122:<privatemusings> it starts here.... 755:<Jeane> that's how we're seeing it 569:<Norma> it seems it would be safer 458:<privatemusings> is that any good? 206:<privatemusings> and this one too; 137:<Norma> for legal threats it would 803:<privatemusings> cheers, :-) 476:<privatemusings> (not --> nor) 305:<privatemusings> yup - got ya.... 98:<Norma> this seems a bit suicidal 536:<privatemusings> (continues....) 644:<privatemusings> of course not! 554:<privatemusings> he says 'Yes!' 311:<Jeane> I said policy was clear 251:<privatemusings> (getting link) 35:<privatemusings> anyone around? 155:<privatemusings> ah no ..sorry 7: 740:<privatemusings> no? :-) 695:<privatemusings> heh :-) 443:<Jeane> NLT is very specific. 437:<Jeane> read the policy, PM. 374:<Mortensen> and put it at AN 302:<Jeane> PM, read what I said 572:<Jeane> to keep him blocked 24: 659:<Jeane> care to elaborate? 521:<privatemusings> ah no... 167:<privatemusings> sorry... 119:<privatemusings> sure.... 809:<privatemusings> thanks. 761:<privatemusings> sure... 176:* Jeane will read in a moment 41:<privatemusings> g'day! 1: 614:<privatemusings> ah... 449:<privatemusings> wise. 47:* privatemusings waves back! 59:<privatemusings> :-) 31:http://www.en.wikipedia.org 823: 29:=== #wikipedia-en-unblock 770:<Jeane> not here 590:<Jeane> 1 moment 503:<privatemusings> 362:<privatemusings> 254:<privatemusings> 221:* Jeane starts reading 209:<privatemusings> 200:<privatemusings> 191:<privatemusings> 179:<privatemusings> 125:<privatemusings> 68:<Norma> Ah, sure 746:<Jeane> PM, no 233:<Mortensen> PM 497:<Norma> link? 164:<Norma> I see 428:<Jeane> our* 18:User:Privatemusings 149:<Jeane> ... 116:<Jeane> aye 581:<Jeane> no 80:<Norma> oh 814: 347:<Norma> s 822: 821: 817: 816: 815: 813: 812: 811: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 820: 818: 173:* Norma reads 44:* Jeane waves 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 819: 810: 807: 804: 801: 798: 795: 792: 789: 786: 783: 780: 777: 774: 771: 768: 765: 762: 759: 756: 753: 750: 747: 744: 741: 738: 735: 732: 729: 726: 723: 720: 717: 714: 711: 708: 705: 702: 699: 696: 693: 690: 687: 684: 681: 678: 675: 672: 669: 666: 663: 660: 657: 654: 651: 648: 645: 642: 639: 636: 633: 630: 627: 624: 621: 618: 615: 612: 609: 606: 603: 600: 597: 594: 591: 588: 585: 582: 579: 576: 573: 570: 567: 564: 561: 558: 555: 552: 549: 546: 543: 540: 537: 534: 531: 528: 525: 522: 519: 516: 513: 510: 507: 506: 501: 498: 495: 492: 489: 486: 483: 480: 477: 474: 471: 468: 465: 462: 459: 456: 453: 450: 447: 444: 441: 438: 435: 432: 429: 426: 423: 420: 417: 414: 411: 408: 405: 402: 399: 396: 393: 390: 387: 384: 381: 378: 375: 372: 369: 366: 365: 360: 357: 354: 351: 348: 345: 342: 339: 336: 333: 330: 327: 324: 321: 318: 315: 312: 309: 306: 303: 300: 297: 294: 291: 288: 285: 282: 279: 276: 273: 270: 267: 264: 261: 258: 257: 252: 249: 246: 243: 240: 237: 234: 231: 228: 225: 222: 219: 216: 213: 212: 207: 204: 203: 198: 195: 194: 189: 186: 183: 182: 177: 174: 171: 168: 165: 162: 159: 156: 153: 150: 147: 144: 141: 138: 135: 132: 129: 128: 123: 120: 117: 114: 111: 108: 105: 102: 99: 96: 93: 90: 87: 84: 81: 78: 75: 72: 69: 66: 63: 60: 57: 54: 51: 48: 45: 42: 39: 36: 33: 32: 27: 19: 808: 805: 802: 799: 796: 793: 790: 787: 784: 781: 778: 775: 772: 769: 766: 763: 760: 757: 754: 751: 748: 745: 742: 739: 736: 733: 730: 727: 724: 721: 718: 715: 712: 709: 706: 703: 700: 697: 694: 691: 688: 685: 682: 679: 676: 673: 670: 667: 664: 661: 658: 655: 652: 649: 646: 643: 640: 637: 634: 631: 628: 625: 622: 619: 616: 613: 610: 607: 604: 601: 598: 595: 592: 589: 586: 583: 580: 577: 574: 571: 568: 565: 562: 559: 556: 553: 550: 547: 544: 541: 538: 535: 532: 529: 526: 523: 520: 517: 514: 511: 508: 502: 499: 496: 493: 490: 487: 484: 481: 478: 475: 472: 469: 466: 463: 460: 457: 454: 451: 448: 445: 442: 439: 436: 433: 430: 427: 424: 421: 418: 415: 412: 409: 406: 403: 400: 397: 394: 391: 388: 385: 382: 379: 376: 373: 370: 367: 361: 358: 355: 352: 349: 346: 343: 340: 337: 334: 331: 328: 325: 322: 319: 316: 313: 310: 307: 304: 301: 298: 295: 292: 289: 286: 283: 280: 277: 274: 271: 268: 265: 262: 259: 253: 250: 247: 244: 241: 238: 235: 232: 229: 226: 223: 220: 217: 214: 208: 205: 199: 196: 190: 187: 184: 178: 175: 172: 169: 166: 163: 160: 157: 154: 151: 148: 145: 142: 139: 136: 133: 130: 124: 121: 118: 115: 112: 109: 106: 103: 100: 97: 94: 91: 88: 85: 82: 79: 76: 73: 70: 67: 64: 61: 58: 55: 52: 49: 46: 43: 40: 37: 34: 28: 25: 38:* Norma is 16:<