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article, they might think that the articles are in conflict as both could be perceived to be about same thing under the same name (the hyphen is non-essential) but describe the thing in different terms, possibly leading the reader to believe that one article is right and the other one wrong; alternatively, the reader could erroneously conclude that the hypen is essential, and that the name of the variant covered in "Down-ball" is always spelled 'down-ball', and that whenever 'down-ball' is discussed, that's always that thing and not the other one, which would be misleading.
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516:. Let's hypothesize that there's a wall-based variant of downball and that its convenient to call it "wall downball" (I don't really think it's a good idea, this is just a thought experiment): If reliable sources discussing a "wall downball", using this exact term, do not actually exist (at least several of them), we could never use this term, as that would not be natural disambiguation. It would be "unnatural disambiguation" i.e. constructed, invented, disambiguation, and that's forbidden.
321:), as any informal and not strictly-regulated thing, and you are interested in one of those ostensible forms which you believe bears the name of "down-ball". But it also bears the name of "downball". Just as any form of downball can be spelled as "down-ball". There are various forms of downball, a game whose name can be spelled as "downball" or "down-ball"; it also appears to have various other names, which in various ways relate to particular varieties of the game. —
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Downball (game played against downball wall) is different in rules and play in that once the player hits the ball it must bounce once before next bouncing of the wall. It is a foul if the ball hits the wall on the full. Compared to other similar games played against a wall - there does not seem to be
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For players of
Downball (game played against downball wall) - the bounce after being hit causes a unique flight of the ball which is a curve up and back off the wall. The bounce then wall deflection after being hit changes the game markedly as compared to games where the ball hits the wall on the
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options; a reader who wants to find out what downball is and types 'downball' or 'down-ball' into search will be led to a separate article about one or the other thing, which will give them only a part of the information relevant to their search, and if they are told that there's another downball
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and the title of the article covering it would then not need to be disambiguated. So it's possible that, given that we are discussing two articles, they could be named "X (A)" and "X (B)", but they could also be named "X" (no disambiguator) and "X (B)"; it depends on whether there is or is not a
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a notable topic can be covered better as part of a larger article, where there can be more complete context that would be lost on a separate page ... several related topics, each of them similarly notable, can be collected into a single page, where the relationships between them can be better
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I prefer to keep discussions unfragmented. If you start a new talk topic here, I will respond on this same page, as an effort to keep the entire conversation in one place. By the same token, if I leave a comment on your talk page, please respond to it there, using the ping template like this:
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and in the former example we have "X (A)" and "X (B)", meaning that there is no article under the title "X" (the disambiguation page would occupy "X"). It's also possible to have an "X (disambiguation)" page, but that doesn't seem relevant here (could be, however; something to keep thinking
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Hi Alalch E. , what is trivial or incidental coverage of a subject by secondary sources on wikipedia? I am finding new references and want to pass the threshold in regards to notability for the wikipedia page. I was going to have a conversation with AI and thought better of it.
472:• no general-specific relationship as both would equally cover only their respective variant, or, indeed a distinct game, if the differences are such that we can't even say that we're discussing variants, despite the name of both things being the same; this is suggested by
468:, which can also be used as a guide to figure out how to organize content across multiple articles in advance), and preconditions for a separate article to be met (the topic is notable), we could be ending up with two articles: • a more general article and its
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Yes agreed that down-ball is an alternative spelling of downball. The rationale for doing this is to aid understanding and remove confusion while still being true to the historical naming of a thing. There are many ways that wikipedia pages handle this
420:@shirt58 - you mentioned in passing you've played downball before. I don't know whether you played downball (game played on squares court) OR downball (game played against downball wall) Can I invite you to join this conversation perhaps?
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As for renaming the current downball page, it can either stay as it is or be changed to "Downball (game played on squares court)." I don't have a strong preference either way. Thank you for your considered and comprehensive assistance,
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There is no Down-ball page nor Down-ball (draft) currently and I'm trying to refrain from rebutting new voices arguments. I'm appreciative that you've added your voice and voted and so perhaps we can discuss Down-ball here sometime.
642:"Back in the 80's, when the great popular game was the wall game, we, in Melbourne, established the Victorian Downball-Veeball Association, and ran formal State titles every year and some local titles during the year."
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Thanks, I share your sentiment of being sensitive to autobiographers who are new to editing and hope for a resolution based on understanding. It seems like it will be hard to demonstrate notability, however.
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article. As you may be aware, this has been a contentious subject, with the article previously proposed for deletion (I contributed to the AfD discussion) and then subject to an (ongoing) deletion review
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The creating editor is in need of some sensitive help in order to understand
Knowledge. Perhaps you will be the person to help them. The topic may be proven to be notable, which will be a useful thing.
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Perhaps this is a fair balance as the article has good references/sources AND has the primary sources listed for those who want to did deeper? Also the article appears to adhere to wikipedia rules.
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Hi Alalch E, I’m confident that finding new sources and references will support the creation of a separate page. I also believe that having separate pages will enhance understanding for both topics.
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Not acceptable. Articles must be easy to find, must figure as good responses to a reader's query, and must harmoniously coexist. Slight alterations produce ambiguity, and are not one of the
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Yes ok - I guess that this is part of the responsibility that comes with the ability to edit anything on wikipedia. And it demonstrates how wikipedia and other encyclopaedia are different.
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Hi Alalch E, in the history section I am wanting to include folklore about the 80s. Following is a link to the archive of the information which would be a quote from the primary source.
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Given that PAGEDECIDE probably applies, we'd need a reason to cover the version you're talking about separately. If we imagine that reason to exist (some of those are described at
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another game where this is a fundamental rule of the game. For all other similar games played against a wall the rule is that the ball once hit must strike the wall on the full.
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Is is ok to use a primary source for the history section? I'm seeking your input/advice about potentially using this primary source in any capacity on wikipedia please?
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Folklore about the 80s includes brief details about proponents of
Downball (wall and ball game) organising competition events in Melbourne including a yearly final event.
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As simply a primary source, had the statements been of unobjectionable provenance, maybe something could be done with it, but apart from being a primary source, it is a
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Hi, nice to hear from you. Basically, down-ball is just an alternative spelling of downball, a game which comes in various forms, which game was an informal game until
343:(b) altering the page name by adding brackets and additional description e.g. downball (game played on squares court) AND downball (game played against downball wall)
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Hi Alalch E., thank you for your considered and comprehensive reply. I will hit the hay for now and be back tomorrow. (Thanks also for fixing my attempted ping)
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If a discussion here is about a specific article, I may move the discussion to that article's talk page. Were one to disagree I would tell them to treat it as my
194:, and want to give something back; this is why I began editing in 2021. I'd like to receive your feedback on anything I've done. Expect a reply! :) By the way:
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disambiguation—also valid and actually preferable to parenthetical disambiguation, but the names must not be invented; they must still meet the naming
688:. . . "unobjectionable provenance" - I like that turn of phrase. I've never heard that before and had to look up its meaning. Thanks for your help.
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Because the evidence shows that these two things are distinct from each other I prefer to to handle the problem via 02. but am open to suggestions.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20171009223334/http://squarefour.org/node/755#:~:text=Back%20in%20the%2080,the%20entirety%2C%20remaining%20undefeated
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Bob
Kindred? Just because the last two words of his name aren't the best title. Or Robert Hamilton Bob Kindred, though that could be too long.
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I like to keep things compact, and don't have any great ideas for my user page yet, so my signature directs here. I was a long-time reader and
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At this stage I've added
Further Reading - Primary Sources section but won't utilise it as I don't want to rock the wikipedia boat.
198:{{ping|Alalch E.}}. If you want to initiate a conversation with me anywhere else, simply ping me there—no need to notify me here.
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673:, that is, a post on what is really an internet forum, and as such it is not an acceptable source under Knowledge policy. —
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You're receiving this message because you are a new page patroller. To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself
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The downward push of the ball so that it bounces before hitting the ball is where the "down" part of the name comes from.
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Barnstars will also be granted for re-reviewing articles previously reviewed by other patrollers during the drive.
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For naming, I prefer the parenthetical disambiguation approach, like "Downball (game bouncing ball at wall)."
349:(d) adding additional description at the beginning of the name. e.g. Canadian football AND American football
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ok, no worries. I propose to continue the discussion by compartmentalising various parts as replies.
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Thanks for that lucid breakdown. I'll try to properly reply tomorrow when I'm more rested. Regards. —
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I would contend that players enjoy playing this unique game because of it's unique characteristics.
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Excellent work on merging the article and countering the original editor's arguments - Well done!
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2020, the first officially recognised
Downball organisation, Downball Australia, was created
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Hej vidim da si ostao još samo ovdje aktivan. Ja sam isto spustio aktivnost skoro svugdje.
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is not a guarantee that a topic will necessarily be handled as a separate, stand-alone page.
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What is trivial or incidental coverage of a subject by secondary sources on wikipedia?
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02. a page for each unique thing - if they share the same name this can be handled by:
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Thanks. What to say... Hoping for a constructive resolution based on understanding. —
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Each article review will earn 1 point, and each redirect review will earn 0.2 points.
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972:, because he was predominanly called Bob, not Robert. (Bob is derived from Robert) —
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Barnstars will be awarded based on the number of articles and redirects patrolled.
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Thanks, Rockycape (Happy to move this discussion to the draft if you like too.)
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On 1 September 2024, a one-month backlog drive for new pages patrol will begin.
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Htio bi da pođemo javno prije godišnjice u proljeće 2025. za CEE Spring ;-)
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For our purposes here, a disambiguation page would be needed if there is no
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Thank you! And thanks for your significant improvements to the content. —
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01. a single wikipedia page - that describes variations of the same thing
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Jel ima šanse da se raktiviraš na HBS Wy
Inkubatoru u sezoni 2024-2025?
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I note that
Further Reading - Primary Sources section is allowed here
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Thanks, I'm happy about that article's progress. It's a nice topic. —
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340:(a) altering the name slightly by adding punctuation e.g. down-ball
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An automated process has detected that when you recently edited
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Yes, that's valid, and is called parenthetical disambiguation (
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That's the default option, and is suggested by the guideline
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Just noticed that you are more than aware of the above. :-)
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appreciated than if they were each a separate page ...
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539:Hi, Rockycape tried to ping you above. —
476:.Your naming and disambiguation options:
440:Here's what I think about those options:
286:when more than 10 sections are present.
613:You're welcome, glad to help. Regards—
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540:
524:
466:WP:WHENSPLIT
367:
322:
296:
277:
224:
188:Five pillars
178:
177:
160:
123:
99:
77:
18:User:Twsabin
1137:Island Lake
970:WP:NICKNAME
947:Bob Kindred
514:WP:CRITERIA
482:WP:TITLEDAB
474:WP:SAMENAME
283:ClueBot III
101:Alalch Emis
981:Ah, okay.
510:WP:NATURAL
470:WP:SPINOUT
331:including:
1133:Cass Lake
1108:Alalch E.
1085:Alalch E.
1043:Alalch E.
1037:Peel Club
1028:Alalch E.
974:Alalch E.
851:Alalch E.
839:AjaxSmack
806:Rockycape
804:Thanks,
787:Alalch E.
767:Catalyzzt
720:Rockycape
690:Rockycape
675:Alalch E.
656:Rockycape
615:Alalch E.
601:Rockycape
550:Rockycape
541:Alalch E.
525:Alalch E.
422:Rockycape
408:Rockycape
377:Rockycape
368:Alalch E.
354:Rockycape
323:Alalch E.
300:Rockycape
293:Down-ball
278:30.5 days
250:Archive 3
245:Archive 2
240:Archive 1
163:Notepad++
44:This user
597:regards,
508:That is
319:downball
225:Archives
1148:DPL bot
535:Shirt58
505:about).
490:WP:NC()
78:Twsabin
1173:Zblace
1094:Paul W
1071:Paul W
1056:Paul W
1015:Faddle
1010:Fiddle
951:Robert
317:(from
184:lurker
137:verify
1146:.) --
1018:🇺🇦
1007:🇺🇦
920:here.
835:. —
397:full:
233:Index
1177:talk
1152:talk
1135:and
1098:talk
1075:talk
1060:talk
1052:link
987:talk
959:talk
932:talk
810:talk
773:talk
724:talk
694:talk
660:talk
605:talk
554:talk
455:WP:N
426:talk
412:talk
381:talk
358:talk
304:talk
52:Meta
1139:.
1041:Hi
833:DYK
1179:)
1154:)
1100:)
1077:)
1062:)
989:)
961:)
934:)
812:)
775:)
726:)
696:)
662:)
607:)
556:)
457::
448::
428:)
414:)
383:)
360:)
306:)
1175:(
1150:(
1142:(
1096:(
1073:(
1058:(
1050:(
1026:—
985:(
957:(
930:(
911:.
871:|
808:(
771:(
722:(
692:(
658:(
603:(
552:(
537::
533:@
523:—
461:)
424:(
410:(
379:(
356:(
302:(
167:.
140:)
134:(
132:.
104:.
80:.
54:.
20:)
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