498:, I urge you to be more careful with your accusations. First of all, this laundry list really does not belong on the article talk page: you are talking about user behavior more than the article. Second, I have looked over the list and, as long as it is and as many accusations as it contains, it is remarkably short on evidence. For instance, where is the evidence that "Agljones was unequivocally identified as a CoI editor in June/July of 2015"? Nor do I see evidence that Agljones is an SPA from the get-go, though it is clear that they have a hobby horse. I see no evidence that they are somehow whitewashing anything (like in that series of back and forths over which race is the most dangerous); that you don't agree with them doesn't mean they're a paid editor. The only bad mark on their record that I can see is
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of "Grizzly". I don't have a problem if he still gets listed in results as "Grizzly". Thats the name the man took and i respect that. But leaving out the first names of riders, specially as famous as
Charlie who has a page here in wiki. I dont think its right way to go, even if it goes against the format back in the day.
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adding material to the results pages 1907-1925 and not including inline citations. The source "Motor
Cycling" for the 1907 results only refers to the winner by the initials in the article and the results. As results may be considered as primary sources by some editors a further source is required to
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I understand your point about different sources, whats reliable whats not. Cross reference and all that. Sometimes finishing times are different or whatever the case might be. Mistakes were made even then. Or for example when a rider used an alias, like one french rider who always rode under the name
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The inline citation for the race results only lists the initials for the race winner and also most of the other competitors. This was a common practice at the time for sporting results which demonstrated the 'class' difference between "gentlemen" and "trade." Some editors may find that showing this
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The issue of providing inline citations for race results can be complicated. As mentioned previously, any editor adding or restoring material has to provided an inline citation. The information in the inline citation has to support the material directly, verifiable and also has to be reliable. Any
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This was a common practice at the time for sports results in the
British Isles at that time which lasted until at least the 1950's. The reason for this is that names with only initials were listed as professional or competitors with a trade. Names listed in full were either "amateur" or "gentlemen"
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The "Official" website does not quote the race results in full and also the average speed times are incorrect as the actual race distance is 158 miles 220 yards. This is due to the start-line and finishing-line being located in different positions. This issues about sources may now be taken to the
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Editors may not be aware that additional information and details added to the "Official results" website has been added by unpaid volunteers in the last few years and may not always be correct (eg average race speed). Specific
Knowledge policy is that other editors may consider the results as a
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adding full names to the 1920 results, the fourth place finisher in the 350cc Junior TT race appears to have been always referred to by his initials of "R.O." during his racing career. The name "Ronald" only appears in newspaper articles in the 1950's and only added to the
Official' race results
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has not been supported by additional inline citations. For example, the engine capacities are not stated in the quoted sources or the original race programme and may be seen by other editors as original research. The inclusion of names by editor 107.133.4.147 may suggest that the information is
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You are correct
Agljones, H G Tyrrel Smith was an Irish motorcycle racer. Found it in some German race results. Thank you for the 1935 sources. This H G Tyrrel Smith was quite a winner, but have not found anything biographical on the net. I do not know the IOM course, so could not comment on the
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In other words, if you cannot produce solid evidence that there's something fishy here, you should drop this topic, lest you fall into HOUNDING territory, which is a kind of harassment. It may well be that some of
Agljones's edits are problematic--discuss them, without making these kinds of
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The burden of proof lies with any editor adding or restoring information has to provide an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution. The original results show only the initials or sometimes the full name and have been restored to the details in quoted
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However, Agljones, not all is equally well. For now I will bypass the hobby horse, that is the enormous proliferation of Isle of Man related articles (every curve needs an article???), and will merely point at what seems to be some troubling comments made earlier, particularly in
1201:. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation and it may be incorrect to evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source (including names and initials) without a secondary source.
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of the talk page. (Rocknrollmancer, don't give me that stuff about "disguising" stuff on a talk page--users are perfectly entitled to remove conversations.) It seems to me that the verbosity and the legalese do not contribute to a healthy editing atmosphere;
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demonstrate that C.R Collier is actually
Charlie R Collier or Charles Richard Collier. The use of other motor-cycling racing sources may not be considered as reliable for an inline citation as being partisan. The Harris (1989) publication (TT. Motocourse
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for the Isle of Man TT race results for the period 1907-1925 often does not include an inline citation. The sources quoted in the 1907 race result article including the
Official race programme only display the competitor initials and occasionally the full
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also only lists winners initials and may not be considered by editors as being reliable as it is a partisan source. Combining the "Official" results with the inline citations in the source may be considered as Original Research
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incorrectly by unpaid volunteers. In the results from 1907 onwards, a distinction needs to be made between F.W. Applebee, known as "Pa" and F. Applebee junior, C. Williams from E. Williams and C.R. Collier from H.A. Collier.
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This has been discussed in full that inline citation are required to full support the addition or reverting of material. The sources have to be reliable and the "Official" results site is a self published official websites
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1562:, the name C.R. Collier actually appears in this format with the initials in may recent publications as race winner and perhaps the info box needs to be changed to reflect this. In regard to the same editor
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This is just a brief summary to conform with Knowledge requirements and to observe the required degree of secrecy that Knowledge affords to Conflict of Interest editors who fail to declare their involvements.
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The "Official" TT results may contain some of the competitors names and may not considered as being reliable by editors as it is self-published website which mirrors Knowledge. Actually, some editors would
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of CoI editing following repeated deletions of my fair, accurate and reliably-sourced contributions during May/June 2014, when I wrote the following edit-summary into the history purposely for future use:
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difference in the race results as having encyclopaedic value as the early history of the Isle of Man TT races was dominated by "amateur" racers and "gentlemen," becoming more professional in the 1920's.
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The competitors name is linked in the results and it is unclear what the point is for Knowledge editors. Publications as recent as 2019 list the winners: by initials. The editor
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207:. I have had a few "citation needed" notices for my own contributions, so was hoping to fill in the blanks. 1935 to 1939 are done, if you want to add anything to them?
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In accordance with Knowledge Conflict of Information policies, Agljones should not attempt to make any further changes to the topic(s) indicated and allow
378:, therefore could not be considered as the world's most dangerous race. The world's most dangerous race was stated to be the Paris-Dakar endurance event:
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may need to start an appropriate discussion on the results page and login in to Wikipeida as using an IP address to edit may be seen as being disruptive
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referred to the race results and the original style of names and initials restored to reflect the source which is quoted as page 3 of the
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Dakar Rally is statistically consider most dangerous race (approx 1.9 deaths per event including large number of spectators/race officials
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may need to being these issues to the relevant talk:page for discussion. Issues of reliable sources can be found at this notice board
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really means nothing, and that making legal threats is not a productive way of participating in our community. Thank you both.
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1907-1989) incorrectly quotes H.A. Collier as having the same initials as his father, the founder of Matchless motor-cycles.
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on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out
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shortcomings or otherwise. I just fill in what info can be found with Google. Feel free to fill in or correct the details.
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My point has been from the beginning that you revert your edit and list riders full names in the results. still unclear?
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I'm referring to your edit. why Charlie Collier's full name can't be spelled out in results table was the question. thx.
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Agljones was then requested not to make changes to any Isle of Man or TT race articles which was not complied with (2015)
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may be temporarily removed. If you do not resume editing within the next week, your username will be removed from the
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accusations. If the edits are indeed bad, there are ways to handle that, including dispute resolution. I'll also ping
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for Friday 1st June 1907. The "Official" results page may be considered by other contributors as not being reliable
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has repeatedly made attempts to bypass the IP address system and not signed or dated edits. Along with editor
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but has recently taken to ramping-up edit-count with many minor maintenance changes, contrary to past tradition
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Knowledge requires that an inline citation is required for any editor that directly supports the contribution
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Official TT results site has all these riders first names listed. You made a mistake so revert it back. thx.
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rvt with clarification, deletion of prose + 3 sources by IOM resident appears partisan non-neutral COI
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should not make any further comments on this talk:page. Any further comment should be made at this
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So you won't spell out Charlie Collier the race winner in results table but its ok in infobox?.
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Please in the first instance refer to the relevant talk:page to show consideration to other editors.
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I have been filling in TT Races from 1939 back, and have used your description for the
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315:and submit your choices on
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1964:to your user talk page.
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580:or whether it should be
205:Knowledge:Citing_sources
30:Motorcycling WikiProject
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1909:Hello! Voting in the
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67:Hello, Agljones, and
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732:|CC-by-sa-3.0|GFDL}}
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358:Conflict of Interest
347:Conflict of Interest
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528:Boing! said Zebedee
340:Talk:Isle of Man TT
250:1931 Isle of Man TT
246:1932 Isle of Man TT
201:1935 Isle of Man TT
116:Knowledge:Questions
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2011:MusikBot II
2003:WP:PERM/AWB
1953:voting page
1596:and editor
1592:The editor
1104:references.
1034:things like
532:Yngvadottir
376:time-trials
36:motorcycles
1937:topic bans
1831:WP:COPYVIO
1735:discussion
1365:WP:COPYVIO
1199:WP:PRIMARY
1116:WP:COPYVIO
977:FastilyBot
869:FastilyBot
573:Kerrowmoar
557:Kerrowmoar
515:Salvidrim!
302:topic bans
120:{{helpme}}
108:Wikipedian
86:Help pages
2175:has been
2125:has been
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1999:CheckPage
1933:site bans
1882:talk page
1002:has been
963:consensus
903:has been
899:The file
855:consensus
795:has been
791:The file
766:MifterBot
758:MifterBot
511:Callanecc
407:ownership
298:site bans
166:Archive 2
162:Archive 1
110:! Please
2047:Aidan721
1991:Agljones
1886:Agljones
1864:enquiry
1789:unsigned
1747:Agljones
1698:WP:POINT
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1193:such as
1154:unsigned
1127:Agljones
1085:unsigned
975:Thanks,
867:Thanks,
660:deletion
635:Agljones
611:Requests
427:Teahouse
366:Agljones
143:Archives
91:Tutorial
18:Welcome!
1960:NoACEMM
721:PD-self
582:deleted
507:Doncram
478:warning
471:defiant
254:Seasalt
240:Put up
232:Seasalt
219:Seasalt
209:Seasalt
124:Seasalt
69:welcome
48:join us
1989:Hello
1325:WP:MOS
1289:WP:HAT
1060:DMacks
1050:Also,
1038:DMacks
932:or on
824:or on
598:Drmies
540:Drmies
244:. Did
1824:WP:QS
1531:WP:OR
1394:WP:OR
1369:WP:QS
1213:WP:QS
1183:name.
1120:WP:QS
147:index
2198:1729
2148:1729
2098:1729
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