User talk:Nick Green

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go fine. How long will that take? They will want to get a consensus on a modern definition so some of the minority views can be put in perspective, for example. Our position on other disciplines: Some of us were critical of the Sante Fe institute re-inventing the cybernetic wheel without much acknowledgment, but, of course, using improved techniques but denying our firmer (hopefully) methodological foundations. Perhaps we are finding complexity less complex now- largely IMHO because of Google and Knowledge. Time to get to grips with biology now and proteomics looks good. Instrumenting the earth, improving justice and accountability. But how do we depict our relationships to these disciplines? We have to see what the profession says. We see ourselves as one day becoming rigorously inter-disciplinary but one might add only sentient as a species because of what we don't know. You have all these problems in Systems, how do you deal with them?--

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yesterday 25 million child records were lost by Treasury Departments, Hospitals are filthy and nurses won't wash their hands and doctors won't isolate patients -crazy and huge increase in budget over last few years. Somewhere between party manifestos and pending legislation, then recently enacted legislation (becoming reg, dev and op policy for a dept) we have a standard good area for Wiki to cover. Any further thoughts welcome. Do you have any Political Scientists/lawyers might get on this? Systems approach to govt?--

1470:(1966) and I'm quite imprested by the clear lanquage and concepts he expresses here in that time allready. In the last years I have been reading more of the original works of those time, Wiener, Shannon, Weaver, Ashby, Churchmann, Boulding and Bertalannfy... Only this week I realized that Beer was the only one close related to the systems engineering I learned in the 1980s at the Delft University. I'm personly very interested in visualizing society and I found some realy nice examples in Part IV of 2425: 1957: 2348: 2275: 2202: 2063: 1036:

express myselve right. I'm still getting used to communicating in English. I was actually refering to you in the role of Knowledge editor. I am wondering if you are interested in working together more formally (with me (and others)) in some kind of Knowledge:WikiProject? If your interested we can further discust possible options to begin with? -

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It's a good thing that you question the use of Pasks images. It all depends on how far we want to go. Now we can first take a look at some numbers. That's why I mentioned the "wetenschap" article: that article is now 13 pages. The Pask article 4.5 pages. I think that an article, can go up to 20 pages

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The illustrations in the your article on Pask are very nice. I like a lot both Pasks portrait, and Pasks drawings on the "Mind model" and the "desktop computer". I also took a look at Pasks portraits at the Pask archive, and found two portrets of a younger and an older Pask. Before taking any action

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Mdd has suggested setting up an autonomous area for Cybernetics. Clearly we will need an article on Systems from the cybernetic perspective at some stage. My understanding is we cover most areas and once you get into it, if you haven't already, you'll find it fairly straight forward. You can register

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Hi Nick. Nice article on the budget. I see you've been adding it as a see also to UK Govt Department articles. I don't think this is the right place to add it as the budget is no more relevant to the departmental articles than any other of the many UK Government articles in existence. I've added

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Suggested options 1. Argue Systems science is part of Cybernetics 2. Cybernetics is a separate discipline 3. Accept classification as part of Systems Science- any others you can think of... My guess they'll accept class in Sys Sci. I'll post the CYBCOM and Metaphorum list to see what Am Soc for Cyb

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Re Conversation Theory from a very quick look that looks good. I'll give it the once over. BTW an over zealous ex- student removed the Venn diagram representation of three interacting participant/concepts. We found the published reference but it is still unreinstated. There is a slightly more modern

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Definitely a link to HMT needed but I'd rather keep the links to Depts to encourage reality! No spam prob yet- but I'll check options. Thanks. The details on spending plans for forthcoming year as a topic for each Dept (laid out in Chancellors Budget statement) might do the trick. Unless you have a

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I have been following the ongoing discussion, but haven't partipated lately. I know it is sometimes difficult to establish notability of a relatively new subject. I have already proposed to merge the article, but I do understand that that is not what you want. Now I think there is one other option:

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Yes thanks Mdd. I have just recommended our own portal. Everyone is still at it. The Wiki article on Cybernetics started pretty badly. None of us knew who started it and this K1,K2 stuff put a lot of people off, I suspect. But getting contributions? Well once they get into the habit I'd say it will

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One of the things is that in the current state cybernetics isn't a part of systems science. And cybernetics being part of the scope of the WikProject Systems and the WikiPortal Systems doesn't make it a part. Cybernetics is relatively autonmous. Like most parts which for example are captitured in

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and Wiener and Beer seem ok. Can't think of any others. Will include Alfred Wallace as Cyb because of his centrifugal governor is like evolution remark. Hope you think that is reasonable i.e. not anachronistic. Worked with some Evolutionary Computing people and they were unaware -they thought the

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I have posted some comment on the Talk:Cybernetics page... just for the record. There is no response so far and I wonder if there will be sone. I guess it's all to abstract. There are still a view minor points we have to discuss about some articles your working. But I'll make this new talk items

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These are a lot of questions and no really a direct answer to my question. But it is good to know a little about these backgrounds. It seems that you are playing an intermediar role here (as spokesman of the Cybernetic community), beside your work here just as an Knowledge editor. Maybe I didn't

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encourage this! Well we can always hope. Might make things more transparent, easy to understand, and after all we (in UK) only pay for it all. There's still a lot of opposition to openness in the Public Service here in UK. There is the problem of the Home Office "not fit for purpose" and just

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is ok- Pask's eldest daughter has waived copyright on all archive material. I note there is one on Beer now. BTW note the Chileans have obtained a video of Stafford talking in 1974 at Manchester Business School (he was prof there) about his work in Chile. Very good and clear. External link at

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Ah cool! Indeed excellent. There is a problem with whether Cybetnetics is part of systems or vice versa. All I can say is Wiener came before Bertalanffy. Happy to help I've been mostly in industry/business with some years in Academia and nearly 30 years a card carrying (FCybS) cybernetician.

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Yes it looks nice- you're right I don't read Dutch. Re Pask's drawings perhaps the desktop computer is a little rich for Wiki but the mind model has real teaching value- constructivism and all that. No hurry- let's get things right. Try and watch Beer's video- he gave good talks.

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Hi Nick, I wanted to ask you if you by any change own any picutures of Stafford Beer‎ or Gordon Pask, or do you know anybody who does? Lot's of the image of systems scientists in Knowledge are at the moment shown on the base of fair-use, but this is something I like to change. -

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I think systems & regulations for UK Government Depts is an interesting area that haven't yet been fully developed on wikipedia. I'd suggest that the UK Budget article might be well served by being on the see also section of HMT and HMRC rather than each Department

515:. It would be best to put the footnotes after statements that they support; footnotes on headings is something I've never seen done before. Also, please explain what the heck that article is trying to say, by starting with some context, like what field it pertains to. 1905:

Separately, I see you've got an email address on your userpage. It's often a good idea to take that off as it's quite easy for spammers to pick it up through a crawler and for you to receive spam as a result. You can set your account to be able to receive email in

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Thanks. I still don't know how it works. If I push proportional fonts I get the text on one page, but no more original listings. If I push the non proprotional I get the listing and the text walks way...? I am working with Windows Vista. Maybe that doesn;t help. -

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I was thinking about doing some research and writing myselve... investigating the current sources and extract some extra information here and there. In the mean time you must have gotten an idea about how I work and use the sources. But if you want to wait...!? -

1496:. You might enjoy. Let's discuss "Decision and Control" some time- magisterial! But read "Brain of the Firm" that's something else. The VSM is a quite extraordinairly powerful systems/cybernetics model. I'm personally less fond of the later syntegrity work.-- 433:

Please signify the copyright information on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me, or ask them at the

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I note some odd behaviour myself, now (although the prop spacing trick still works in my Firefox under XP). I tried pasting into Word/notepad/notepad++/wordpad to no effect. You would have to insert carriage returns by hand! I post below and will keep you

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Now it that some hours till days to initiate it, but it can take for ever to run it. After a while WikiProjects and Portals can become inactive (and even can get deleted). And last but not least it takes some people and good will to initiate and run it.

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Thanks. However, for the past weeks I have been so all into improving, writing and discussing articles... that your answer here kind of struck me. I got to clear my mind first to get a clearer idea about the further options. I will get back on this. -

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1751:). Rather disarmingly Peierls then talks about the peer reviewed mistakes he made in discussing this problem- I think many are hoping to find Pask has made mistakes too- but none found yet. This is where Wiki Criticism sub headings can be so useful!-- 1746:

pointed out in calculating the momentum of a refracted photon Minkowski put the refractive index on the top line and Abrahams a year later the bottom- this, believe it or not, is still unresolved (I have asked the current expert to contribute to Wiki

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Yes, good point but the hope is that someone will come along and describe what current (politically set) policy on operations, regulation and development are for each Department and giving a real world constraint (the budget) on those Departments

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The copyright holder is usually the creator, the creator's employer, or the last person who was transferred ownership rights. Copyright information on images is signified using copyright templates. The three basic license types on Knowledge are

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If you did not create it entirely yourself, please ask the person who created the file to take one of the two steps listed above, or if the owner of the file has already given their permission to you via email, please forward that email to

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Ok I'll put something on Cyb Discussion, yes I have used management cybernetics (partic of Beer) a lot in my work. You can join the CYBCOM list may take 24 hours to get approved and you can't edit once posted. Last paper on selecting an

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If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have provided evidence that their copyright owners have agreed to license their works under the tags you supplied, too. You can find a list of files you have created in

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It's going your way Mdd. Initial response from two leading cybs is happy with Cyb as subset of Sys. Will advise if any interesting dissent. Count on me as an amused critic in the sidelines. Might encourage higher standards all

1444:. Still under development. I've mostly applied cybernetics rather than published and pleased to say Beer and Pask were both my teachers, friends and colleagues. Last talk was three short papers 2005 to the Cybernetics Society 848:. For the past six weeks I've been improved (over 100) articles that need attention, who were in a bad shape. Most of the time it is not the content, but the form and lay-out I'm improving... and all kind of other things. - 2075:, which you've attributed to Gordon Pask (deceased). I noticed that while you provided a valid copyright licensing tag, there is no proof that the creator of the file has agreed to release it under the given license. 1689:

Thanks for this good news. But taking any image and uploading here or in commons will need some preparation. Allthough I have been uploading pictures for the past months, I still don't know exactly how to proceed. -

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indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.

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Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

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I have read part of the discussion on CYBCOM and it's quit impressive. Some of the responces are really inspiring. It seems to me however that little references are made directly to the Knowledge and it's way of

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a Portal is main pages for specific topics or areas; a kind of homepage; a general representation of the field; a introduction of the existing articles, facts, images, persons in the field and new developments.

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Sorry, I don't want to push you. I fixt it already because I had to fix an other thing also. I'm going to look at bit more to the current moves made in the cybernetics field, so maybe I get back to you. -

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article and that is not allowed...!? I removed it once before, I have explained this on the talk page, but I have the feeling that you don't understand. Sorry if maybe I don't explain these thing right -

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I have listened to Beer's speech some weeks ago, and that was very inspiring. Thanks. I however can't get that video running on my new computer, because I don't have the specific mediaplayer yet.

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Beer's full name is Anthony Stafford Beer but he was always known in articles books etc as Stafford Beer. The "Anthony" will come as a surprise to most people, Beer is his surname. --

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a WikiProject is a kind of cooperation between editors to improve the represention in Knowledge of a specific field (Cybernetics) and to initiate and coordinate further innovations.--

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I saw your responce, thank you, and I asked you a new question about it allready. Maybe you can take a look. I wonder if you know how the watch-list works on the Knowledge editor? -

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on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Below are some recommended guidelines to facilitate your involvement. Happy Editing!

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OK Mdd I look forward to hearing from you. Stafford was an amazing guy (quite different to Pask). We first worked on the Liverpool Cable TV project together (1972 which became

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Sure- give me a chance working on Variety at the moment. There maybe other instances too which need attention. Trying to remember but I promise when I see it I'll fix it. OK?--

1421:, a subject you gave a presentation last year, I read somewhere. Now I'm no expert in this field and kind of made those articles to get better acquainted ((the article on 470:

Nick, thanks for the refs. They would be much more useful as citations if tied as footnotes to what they support. Let me know if you need help learning how to do this.

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should receive that attention too in due course. The homeostat work of Ashby was foundational in this respect (also von Bertalanffy great fan of Lotka and V equns). --

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however, maybe we should taken some time to determine where we could use these kind of pictures. I can tell you about some of the ideas and ideals I have here!? -

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Well I could write a lot more, expand and include more quotes etc but I'd rather put it off until March next year when the new collection of his papers is out.

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if you want. This of cause also depents on how much information there is. But it seems to me that there is lot's of information. So how far to do want to go? -

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14 emails and much learned discussion on CYBCOM and a new definition of Cybernetics(!) from a leading authority not a bad response. No major dissent yet. --

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I also noticed you made an editorial note about an article on Systems from the cybernetic perspective at some stage. Maybe you should also add this at the

1474:(Eighth printing 1988). I would love to investigate this further. I the mean time working at the Knowledge clears my mind and give me some more insides. 2146: 1980: 1198:. If you move it to CYBCOM maybe you can do something about the lay-out. I couldn't really read the last thing you copied. It seems one long sentence? - 880:

I think you cannot say that Cybetnetics is part of systems or visa versa. It is very questionable if a scientific field called systems even exit. I see

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a UK Govt category to the budget article - I'm sure there are more cats that can be applied and these are probably the best option for including it.

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Ah ok just seen above. Cyberneticist is unusual in Europe. Guess well muddle through. I did a chat piece on this. Not sure how to contact you guys.--

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a separate article. In this way it's much easier to expand the information about CT and add info about other CT applications and related subjects. -

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Anyway have recently added more details. The image was self made, adapted from Pask's book as stated. Uses a notation he used on the now defunct UK

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Ah ok just seen above. Cyberneticist is unusual in Europe. Guess well muddle through. I did a chat piece on this. Not sure how to contact you guys.

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If you are the copyright holder for this media entirely yourself but have previously published it elsewhere (especially online), please either

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is still an evolving concept at the moment (and for the last 50 years). With my work on the Knowledge I even want to give it some more solid

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The idea is to start ... your text follows (as above) with url to Cybernetics discussion. If I think of anything else will advise.--

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the systems-template. In the near future it's possible to start an own WikiProject Cybernetics and a Cybernetics Portal. -

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In all systesm and cybernetic related articles I try to put Categories in alphabetical order. Maybe you can do the same? -

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He is asking "what do you think about cybernetics being represented in Knowledge as being part of the systems sciences.?"

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describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to

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and taht is to expand the article, with some related stuff that is notable. I don't know how? But you probably will. -

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form Pask used but not very "seeming like much". We'll see. Something similar for Interactions of Actors, perhaps?--

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Click jkl (icon at top of page) to sort out format when viewing archive in web. Seems to post all right as email.--

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Thanks Hetar. Not sure how to review these messages. Sorry for delay. Can you email me? nickgreen.cyb@gmail.com.

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Hi Mdd. Yes I have responded. Just discovered the Wiki Category: Ecological cycles Should this not go into

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has proceeded. You might want to take a look. Good luck. If you have any questions, please let me know? -

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article. They are highly unusual. Better you find an other way to make this kind of cross references. -

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Actually the pasting in a text editor seems to work for my posting of your last but not in general.--

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Direct answer Yes. And you are right I am acting as an intermediary with the Cybernetics community.--

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A user called Mdd is running the Knowledge Knowledge:WikiProject Systems and Portal:Systems science.

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Thats a good question: Is Cybetnetics is part of systems or vice versa? I'll get back on this. -

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on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Please remember to

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Your quite fortunate to have know such outstanding persons. I've just been reading Beer's

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Hi Nick. One question... is it "Beer, Anthony Stafford" of "Stafford Beer,‎ ‎Anthony". -

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Files lacking evidence of permission may be deleted one week after they have been tagged

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Surprised there are apparently so few cybs active in Wiki. If I don't know I will say.--

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Hopefully the penny has now dropped for you re the heck. Tks for template suggestion. --

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Dicklyon have done refs to ] and all ok. But same procedure has not promulgated refs in

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as the collection of all kind of systems. And I am focussed on the overall concept of

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ten years later). There's an audio tape of him talking to Cybsoc (1990) about his

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While all constructive contributions to Knowledge are appreciated, pages may be

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And would you like me to add a (fair use) picture at the Gordon Pask article? -

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justifying the file's use on the article or articles where it is included. See

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Ps. One of those ideals I just realized. I completly rewrote the article about

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is somewhat radical but OK by me. Didn't pick it up through my Watchlist tho.--

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anonymously or in your own name. Usual standards for academic publishing apply.

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was rather a shot in the dark)). Now I'm interested in your expert opinion? -

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I still wonder if you understand what I mean? This is about you just adding

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Ah the mysteries of Wiki made plain ( and the empty element references tag).

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about the article itselve. You probably would like to take a look at it. -

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Now WikiProjects can fulfill multiple tasks (it can start with the first).

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Send an email from an address associated with the original publication to

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describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

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describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

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P.S. I made some articles about those "leading cybs" of yours... and on

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genetic algorithm was all there was to it. Negative feedback rules!--

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Some general information can be found on (or look at some examples)

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page. I would like to invite you to contribute there yourselve. -

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Pask's Last Theorem, Safe Diagnosis and World Citizen Contracts

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So far for the general introductions? Any questions? Ideas? -

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Ok, thanks. Are you going to remove the category yourselve? -

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overview of the existing WikiProjects in the field of science

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to the file description page to prevent premature deletion.

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There are a lot of useful pointers into cybernetics on the

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I haven't looked yet but can I contribute myselve directly?

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Got it now there seemed be some kind of contention thing.--

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To my shame I don't recall my connection with this image --

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Some have said "Wiki" should stand for "What I know Is".

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Platform to discuss, initiate, coordinate, control, etc.

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Knowledge:WikiProject Cybernetics and Portal:Cybernetics

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File permission problem with File:CTand AI compared.jpg

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A discussion is taking place as to whether the article

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Tks Mdd. Guess I'll figure it out one of these days. --

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Talk:Gordon Pask#No persons in the Category:Cybernetics

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for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

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and post to CYBCOM. Then I suppose we wait and see.--

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I was actualy interested in your ideas about this? -

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Not sure what you mean here. Seems unchanged to me.--

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I removed the (see also ..) notes in the text in the

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is suitable for inclusion in Knowledge according to

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Can one change (edit) the original message in CYBCOM

2173:. If you have any questions please ask them at the 1452:homepage e.g. Left hand column. Happy to guide.-- 2011:You appear to be eligible to vote in the current 1781:I'll see what I can do. This may take a while. - 2127:If you believe the media meets the criteria at 1511:Hi Nick, I made some rather mayor point on the 1133:Knowledge:WikiProject Council/Directory/Science 840:I don't know if you know, but I'm running the 41:. If you decide that you need help, check out 1666:Yes please! If in doubt the pic of Gordon at 619:. I hope you like and understand that I made 394:is very careful about the images included in 8: 1173:page to see if anybody else is interested?) 1981:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Metaphorum 1169:(P.S. We could move this discussion to the 647:I guess you are here refering to the move 426:and place it on the image page like this: 2086:or another acceptable free license (see 2460:notice, but please explain why in your 2092:at the site of the original publication 2082:make a note permitting reuse under the 1442:protolanguage supporting a metalanguage 562:So you are going to take a look at the 553:thanks Mdd. Will endeavour to comply -- 2143:Knowledge:File copyright tags#Fair use 1839:, and now I guess this is allright. - 7: 2505:of each individual file for details. 2357:2018 Arbitration Committee elections 2284:2017 Arbitration Committee elections 2211:2016 Arbitration Committee elections 2169:. You may wish to read Knowledge's 2141:or one of the other tags listed at 1970:Knowledge's policies and guidelines 671:I guess you missed my message here 422:. Find the appropriate template in 362:Knowledge:Media copyright questions 321:License tagging for Image:Ptraj.png 45:, ask me on my talk page, or place 2449:deleted for any of several reasons 2439:because of the following concern: 2341:ArbCom 2018 election voter message 2268:ArbCom 2017 election voter message 805:No (see also ..) notes in the text 14: 2474:{{proposed deletion/dated files}} 2457:{{proposed deletion/dated files}} 2354:Hello, Nick Green. Voting in the 2281:Hello, Nick Green. Voting in the 2208:Hello, Nick Green. Voting in the 2037:review the candidates' statements 1979:The article will be discussed at 1438:Upper ontology (computer science) 1393:I am wondering about two things. 1093:Knowledge:WikiProject Cybernetics 43:Knowledge:Where to ask a question 2346: 2273: 2200: 1955: 1831:Thanks now I know. Someone made 539:Categories in alphabetical order 2443:unused, low-res, no obvious use 2391:and submit your choices on the 2318:and submit your choices on the 1772:Go ahead. I'll help if I can.-- 356:This is an automated notice by 2175:Media copyright questions page 2043:. For the Election committee, 2013:Arbitration Committee election 2004:ArbCom elections are now open! 1501:01:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC) 1483:23:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC) 1457:23:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC) 1430:23:00, 25 September 2007 (UTC) 1413:23:00, 25 September 2007 (UTC) 1373:22:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC) 1344:22:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC) 1222:21:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC) 1212:20:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC) 1203:19:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC) 1186:19:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC) 1165:19:00, 25 September 2007 (UTC) 1108:23:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC) 1069:00:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC) 1060:00:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC) 1050:16:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC) 1041:15:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC) 1015:01:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC) 1005:23:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC) 980:01:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC) 971:22:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC) 943:23:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC) 934:14:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC) 922:10:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC) 912:10:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC) 896:I have emailed cyb colleagues 873:23:14, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 864:22:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 853:22:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 828:10:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC) 818:09:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC) 793:23:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 777:22:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 759:22:12, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 748:22:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 738:22:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 728:21:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 723:No its quite clear, Thanks. -- 718:21:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 699:21:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 690:21:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 680:21:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 659:22:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 639:21:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 628:21:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 589:21:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 580:21:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 571:21:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 558:21:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 548:20:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 529:03:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC) 520:02:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC) 499:23:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 485:21:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 475:22:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC) 460:21:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 436:Media copyright questions page 424:Knowledge:Image copyright tags 373:23:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 351:Knowledge:Image copyright tags 1: 2407:18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC) 2370:Knowledge arbitration process 2297:Knowledge arbitration process 2261:22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC) 2224:Knowledge arbitration process 2151:Knowledge:File copyright tags 2105:. If you take this step, add 2053:13:41, 23 November 2015 (UTC) 1937:12:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC) 1920:12:01, 21 November 2007 (UTC) 1895:11:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC) 1872:10:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC) 1849:23:45, 19 November 2007 (UTC) 1823:23:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC) 1808:23:17, 19 November 2007 (UTC) 1585:New Cybernetics (Gordon Pask) 1099:. Both have a different aim: 842:Knowledge:WikiProject Systems 835:Knowledge:WikiProject Systems 379:Image copyright problem with 97:The five pillars of Knowledge 69: 20: 2334:18:42, 3 December 2017 (UTC) 2167:criteria for speedy deletion 2122:permissions-en@wikimedia.org 2099:permissions-en@wikimedia.org 1786:23:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC) 1777:21:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC) 1767:21:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC) 1756:00:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC) 1737:00:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC) 1723:00:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC) 1705:23:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC) 1695:22:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC) 1684:21:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC) 1661:20:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC) 1652:20:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC) 1636:00:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC) 1625:15:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC) 1606:21:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC) 1596:20:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC) 1591:article I wrote. I think? - 1574:19:53, 10 October 2007 (UTC) 169:Getting more Knowledge rules 112:How to write a great article 37:to Knowledge! Thank you for 2493:allows discussion to reach 2245:and submit your choices on 2039:and submit your choices on 1560:20:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC) 1550:20:11, 5 October 2007 (UTC) 1520:21:05, 4 October 2007 (UTC) 364:. 23:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC) 202:New contributors' help page 126:Getting your info out there 2532: 2517:01:01, 19 March 2020 (UTC) 2485:exist. In particular, the 2399:MediaWiki message delivery 2326:MediaWiki message delivery 2253:MediaWiki message delivery 2243:the candidates' statements 2129:Knowledge:Non-free content 2072:File:CTand AI compared.jpg 2045:MediaWiki message delivery 1464:Cybernetics and management 346:Knowledge:Image use policy 217:Frequently Asked Questions 2479:proposed deletion process 1998:18:56, 20 June 2015 (UTC) 1149:Peer Review Collaboration 611:You did nice work on the 2187:20:40, 12 May 2016 (UTC) 1972:or whether it should be 1565:What you have done with 1539:Lotka-Volterra equations 443:19:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC) 316:03:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC) 1494:40 years in Cybernetics 1123:info about WikiProjects 1091:The idea is to start a 480:Tks Dicklyon will do -- 280:Pages needing attention 207:Where to ask a question 17:Welcome to Knowledge!!! 2445: 2428: 2066: 1794:Anthony Stafford Beer‎ 1419:Management cybernetics 846:Portal:Systems science 764:Ok. Suggest you check 651:made 23 februari, see 494:. Why might that be?-- 335:image description page 275: 2441: 2437:proposed for deletion 2433:File:SOCyberntics.jpg 2427: 2419:File:SOCyberntics.jpg 2366:Arbitration Committee 2293:Arbitration Committee 2220:Arbitration Committee 2193:ArbCom Elections 2016 2069:Thanks for uploading 2065: 2017:Arbitration Committee 1618:Talk:No Doppelgangers 1612:Talk:No Doppelgangers 1194:Ok I have seen it on 1121:Knowledge:WikiProject 811:Variety (cybernetics) 511:Or you could use the 386:Thanks for uploading 325:Thanks for uploading 274: 140:Neutral Point of View 2491:files for discussion 2466:the file's talk page 2131:, use a tag such as 1837:Template:Cybernetics 1642:Gordon Pask pictures 1527:Category:Cybernetics 1513:Talk:New Cybernetics 1472:Decision and Control 1468:Decision and control 706:Category:Cybernetics 666:Category:Cybernetics 392:Wikimedia Foundation 2021:arbitration process 1677:Viable System Model 621:Conversation Theory 617:Conversation Theory 606:Conversation Theory 255:Conflict resolution 2483:deletion processes 2429: 2382:arbitration policy 2309:arbitration policy 2236:arbitration policy 2195:: Voting now open! 2165:, as described on 2067: 2033:arbitration policy 1857:UK Budget see also 1616:The discussion on 1177:I'll move this to 1129:info about Portals 1097:Portal:Cybernetics 664:No persons in the 276: 107:Be bold in editing 92:How to edit a page 87:Knowledge Tutorial 39:your contributions 2415:Proposed deletion 2136:non-free fair use 1579:Ok. I moved your 402:(see Knowledge's 388:Image:Analogy.gif 381:Image:Analogy.gif 310: 309: 306: 305: 302: 301: 264:Getting technical 185: 184: 135:Cite your sources 68: 67: 2523: 2506: 2476: 2475: 2459: 2458: 2426: 2350: 2277: 2204: 2171:image use policy 2140: 2134: 2114: 2108: 2064: 1959: 1958: 1668:Gordon at Cybsoc 1423:Loet Leydesdorff 1406:talk:cybernetics 1196:Talk:Cybernetics 1179:Talk:Cybernetics 1171:Talk:Cybernetics 1127:Knowledge:Portal 975:I'll post this-- 948:representations. 649:User:Paulpangaro 513:Template:reflist 492:No Doppelgangers 429: 428:{{TemplateName}} 404:Copyright policy 189: 160:Image use policy 155:Uploading images 74: 70: 62: 49: 32: 25: 21: 2531: 2530: 2526: 2525: 2524: 2522: 2521: 2520: 2500: 2487:speedy deletion 2473: 2472: 2456: 2455: 2424: 2422: 2411: 2410: 2351: 2343: 2338: 2337: 2278: 2270: 2265: 2264: 2248:the voting page 2205: 2197: 2159:your upload log 2138: 2132: 2112: 2106: 2062: 2060: 2041:the voting page 2007: 1960: 1956: 1953: 1859: 1796: 1749:Talk:Refraction 1644: 1614: 1589:New Cybernetics 1581:New Cybernetics 1567:New Cybernetics 1509: 1507:New Cybernetics 1391: 1089: 890:systems science 886:Systems science 838: 807: 785:Gregory Bateson 669: 609: 541: 468: 438:. Thank you. -- 427: 384: 333:applied to the 327:Image:Ptraj.png 323: 265: 245:Sign your posts 227: 194: 170: 127: 102:Manual of Style 79: 78:Getting Started 64: 60: 47: 30: 19: 12: 11: 5: 2529: 2527: 2497:for deletion. 2477:will stop the 2421: 2412: 2389:the candidates 2352: 2345: 2344: 2342: 2339: 2316:the candidates 2279: 2272: 2271: 2269: 2266: 2206: 2199: 2198: 2196: 2190: 2117: 2116: 2095: 2059: 2056: 2010: 2006: 2001: 1954: 1952: 1947:Nomination of 1945: 1944: 1943: 1942: 1941: 1940: 1939: 1927:better idea!-- 1908:my preferences 1903: 1902: 1901: 1858: 1855: 1854: 1853: 1852: 1851: 1826: 1825: 1795: 1792: 1791: 1790: 1789: 1788: 1759: 1758: 1744:Rudolf Peierls 1726: 1725: 1687: 1686: 1643: 1640: 1639: 1638: 1613: 1610: 1609: 1608: 1577: 1576: 1553: 1552: 1508: 1505: 1504: 1503: 1460: 1459: 1402: 1401: 1398: 1390: 1387: 1386: 1385: 1384: 1383: 1382: 1381: 1380: 1379: 1378: 1377: 1376: 1375: 1355: 1354: 1353: 1352: 1351: 1350: 1349: 1348: 1347: 1346: 1337: 1325: 1324: 1323: 1322: 1321: 1320: 1319: 1318: 1317: 1316: 1304: 1303: 1302: 1301: 1300: 1299: 1298: 1297: 1296: 1295: 1283: 1282: 1281: 1280: 1279: 1278: 1277: 1276: 1275: 1274: 1262: 1261: 1260: 1259: 1258: 1257: 1256: 1255: 1254: 1253: 1240: 1239: 1238: 1237: 1236: 1235: 1234: 1233: 1232: 1231: 1228: 1189: 1188: 1154: 1153: 1150: 1147: 1144: 1137: 1136: 1130: 1124: 1114: 1113: 1110: 1088: 1085: 1084: 1083: 1082: 1081: 1080: 1079: 1078: 1077: 1076: 1075: 1074: 1073: 1072: 1071: 1064:OK no sweat.-- 1026: 1025: 1024: 1023: 1022: 1021: 1020: 1019: 1018: 1017: 991: 990: 989: 988: 987: 986: 985: 984: 983: 982: 956: 955: 954: 953: 952: 951: 950: 949: 936: 914: 905: 904: 903: 900: 888:. Now I think 878: 877: 876: 875: 837: 832: 831: 830: 806: 803: 796: 795: 780: 779: 766:Norbert Wiener 751: 750: 731: 730: 702: 701: 692: 668: 662: 645: 644: 641: 608: 599: 598: 597: 596: 595: 594: 593: 592: 591: 540: 537: 536: 535: 534: 533: 532: 531: 506: 505: 488: 487: 467: 464: 463: 462: 449: 383: 377: 376: 375: 354: 353: 348: 322: 319: 308: 307: 304: 303: 300: 299: 298: 297: 292: 287: 282: 267: 266: 263: 260: 259: 258: 257: 252: 247: 242: 237: 229: 228: 225: 222: 221: 220: 219: 214: 209: 204: 196: 195: 192: 186: 183: 182: 181: 180: 178:Policy Library 172: 171: 168: 165: 164: 163: 162: 157: 152: 147: 142: 137: 129: 128: 125: 122: 121: 120: 119: 114: 109: 104: 99: 94: 89: 81: 80: 77: 66: 65: 53:sign your name 28: 18: 15: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 2528: 2519: 2518: 2514: 2510: 2504: 2498: 2496: 2492: 2488: 2484: 2480: 2469: 2467: 2463: 2452: 2450: 2444: 2440: 2438: 2434: 2420: 2416: 2413: 2409: 2408: 2404: 2400: 2396: 2395: 2390: 2385: 2383: 2379: 2375: 2371: 2367: 2362: 2359: 2358: 2349: 2340: 2336: 2335: 2331: 2327: 2323: 2322: 2317: 2312: 2310: 2306: 2302: 2298: 2294: 2289: 2286: 2285: 2276: 2267: 2263: 2262: 2258: 2254: 2250: 2249: 2244: 2239: 2237: 2233: 2229: 2225: 2221: 2216: 2213: 2212: 2203: 2194: 2191: 2189: 2188: 2184: 2180: 2177:. Thank you. 2176: 2172: 2168: 2164: 2160: 2154: 2152: 2148: 2144: 2137: 2130: 2125: 2123: 2111: 2104: 2100: 2096: 2093: 2089: 2085: 2081: 2080: 2079: 2076: 2074: 2073: 2057: 2055: 2054: 2050: 2046: 2042: 2038: 2034: 2030: 2026: 2022: 2018: 2014: 2005: 2002: 2000: 1999: 1995: 1991: 1985: 1982: 1977: 1975: 1971: 1967: 1966: 1950: 1946: 1938: 1934: 1930: 1925: 1924: 1923: 1922: 1921: 1917: 1913: 1909: 1904: 1900:individually. 1898: 1897: 1896: 1892: 1888: 1883: 1882: 1876: 1875: 1874: 1873: 1869: 1865: 1856: 1850: 1846: 1842: 1838: 1834: 1830: 1829: 1828: 1827: 1824: 1820: 1816: 1812: 1811: 1810: 1809: 1805: 1801: 1793: 1787: 1784: 1780: 1779: 1778: 1775: 1771: 1770: 1769: 1768: 1765: 1757: 1754: 1750: 1745: 1741: 1740: 1739: 1738: 1735: 1729: 1724: 1721: 1716: 1715: 1714: 1712: 1707: 1706: 1703: 1697: 1696: 1693: 1685: 1682: 1678: 1674: 1673:Stafford Beer 1669: 1665: 1664: 1663: 1662: 1659: 1654: 1653: 1650: 1641: 1637: 1634: 1629: 1628: 1627: 1626: 1623: 1619: 1611: 1607: 1604: 1600: 1599: 1598: 1597: 1594: 1590: 1586: 1582: 1575: 1572: 1568: 1564: 1563: 1562: 1561: 1558: 1551: 1548: 1544: 1540: 1536: 1532: 1528: 1524: 1523: 1522: 1521: 1518: 1514: 1506: 1502: 1499: 1495: 1491: 1487: 1486: 1485: 1484: 1481: 1475: 1473: 1469: 1465: 1458: 1455: 1451: 1447: 1443: 1439: 1434: 1433: 1432: 1431: 1428: 1424: 1420: 1415: 1414: 1411: 1407: 1399: 1396: 1395: 1394: 1388: 1374: 1371: 1367: 1366: 1365: 1364: 1363: 1362: 1361: 1360: 1359: 1358: 1357: 1356: 1345: 1342: 1338: 1335: 1334: 1333: 1332: 1331: 1330: 1329: 1328: 1327: 1326: 1314: 1313: 1312: 1311: 1310: 1309: 1308: 1307: 1306: 1305: 1293: 1292: 1291: 1290: 1289: 1288: 1287: 1286: 1285: 1284: 1272: 1271: 1270: 1269: 1268: 1267: 1266: 1265: 1264: 1263: 1250: 1249: 1248: 1247: 1246: 1245: 1244: 1243: 1242: 1241: 1229: 1225: 1224: 1223: 1220: 1215: 1214: 1213: 1210: 1206: 1205: 1204: 1201: 1197: 1193: 1192: 1191: 1190: 1187: 1184: 1180: 1176: 1175: 1174: 1172: 1167: 1166: 1163: 1158: 1151: 1148: 1145: 1142: 1141: 1140: 1134: 1131: 1128: 1125: 1122: 1119: 1118: 1117: 1111: 1109: 1106: 1102: 1101: 1100: 1098: 1094: 1086: 1070: 1067: 1063: 1062: 1061: 1058: 1053: 1052: 1051: 1048: 1044: 1043: 1042: 1039: 1034: 1033: 1032: 1031: 1030: 1029: 1028: 1027: 1016: 1013: 1008: 1007: 1006: 1003: 999: 998: 997: 996: 995: 994: 993: 992: 981: 978: 974: 973: 972: 969: 964: 963: 962: 961: 960: 959: 958: 957: 946: 945: 944: 941: 937: 935: 932: 927: 926: 925: 924: 923: 920: 915: 913: 910: 906: 901: 898: 897: 895: 894: 893: 891: 887: 883: 874: 871: 867: 866: 865: 862: 857: 856: 855: 854: 851: 847: 843: 836: 833: 829: 826: 822: 821: 820: 819: 816: 812: 804: 802: 801: 794: 791: 786: 782: 781: 778: 775: 771: 770:Stafford Beer 767: 763: 762: 761: 760: 757: 749: 746: 742: 741: 740: 739: 736: 729: 726: 722: 721: 720: 719: 716: 711: 707: 700: 697: 693: 691: 688: 684: 683: 682: 681: 678: 674: 667: 663: 661: 660: 657: 653: 650: 642: 640: 637: 632: 631: 630: 629: 626: 622: 618: 614: 607: 603: 600: 590: 587: 583: 582: 581: 578: 574: 573: 572: 569: 565: 561: 560: 559: 556: 552: 551: 550: 549: 546: 538: 530: 527: 523: 522: 521: 518: 514: 510: 509: 508: 507: 503: 502: 501: 500: 497: 493: 486: 483: 479: 478: 477: 476: 473: 465: 461: 458: 454: 450: 447: 446: 445: 444: 441: 437: 431: 425: 421: 417: 416:public domain 413: 407: 405: 401: 400:copyright law 397: 393: 389: 382: 378: 374: 371: 367: 366: 365: 363: 359: 352: 349: 347: 344: 343: 342: 339: 336: 332: 328: 320: 318: 317: 314: 296: 293: 291: 288: 286: 283: 281: 278: 277: 273: 269: 268: 262: 261: 256: 253: 251: 248: 246: 243: 241: 238: 236: 233: 232: 231: 230: 226:Getting along 224: 223: 218: 215: 213: 210: 208: 205: 203: 200: 199: 198: 197: 191: 190: 187: 179: 176: 175: 174: 173: 167: 166: 161: 158: 156: 153: 151: 150:Verifiability 148: 146: 145:Point of View 143: 141: 138: 136: 133: 132: 131: 130: 124: 123: 118: 115: 113: 110: 108: 105: 103: 100: 98: 95: 93: 90: 88: 85: 84: 83: 82: 76: 75: 72: 71: 63: 58: 54: 50: 44: 40: 36: 27: 26: 23: 22: 16: 2503:page history 2499: 2481:, but other 2470: 2462:edit summary 2453: 2446: 2442: 2430: 2392: 2386: 2363: 2355: 2353: 2319: 2313: 2290: 2282: 2280: 2246: 2240: 2217: 2209: 2207: 2162: 2155: 2145:, and add a 2126: 2121: 2118: 2110:OTRS pending 2098: 2091: 2077: 2070: 2068: 2008: 1986: 1978: 1963: 1961: 1951:for deletion 1932: 1907: 1890: 1880: 1879: 1860: 1818: 1797: 1760: 1730: 1727: 1708: 1698: 1688: 1655: 1645: 1615: 1578: 1554: 1543:Logistic map 1510: 1476: 1471: 1467: 1466:(1959) and 1463: 1461: 1416: 1403: 1392: 1168: 1159: 1155: 1138: 1115: 1090: 917:etc think.-- 879: 839: 808: 797: 752: 732: 703: 670: 646: 610: 542: 489: 469: 466:Variety refs 432: 412:open content 408: 385: 355: 340: 324: 311: 295:Village pump 193:Getting Help 117:WikiProjects 46: 2394:voting page 2321:voting page 1833:this change 1583:article to 1535:homeostasis 1336:Mdd writes: 710:Gordon Pask 613:Gordon Pask 602:Gordon Pask 566:article. - 398:because of 285:Peer review 250:Wikipedians 2509:FastilyBot 2378:topic bans 2305:topic bans 2232:topic bans 2029:topic bans 1965:Metaphorum 1949:Metaphorum 1929:Nick Green 1887:Nick Green 1815:Nick Green 1774:Nick Green 1753:Nick Green 1720:Nick Green 1711:wetenschap 1681:Nick Green 1603:Nick Green 1571:Nick Green 1547:Nick Green 1498:Nick Green 1454:Nick Green 1370:Nick Green 1341:Nick Green 1209:Nick Green 1183:Nick Green 1146:Assessment 1105:Nick Green 1066:Nick Green 1047:Nick Green 1012:Nick Green 977:Nick Green 940:Nick Green 931:Nick Green 919:Nick Green 909:Nick Green 861:Nick Green 825:Nick Green 790:Nick Green 783:Just done 774:Nick Green 745:Nick Green 725:Nick Green 696:Nick Green 687:Nick Green 636:Nick Green 615:and about 577:Nick Green 555:Nick Green 526:Nick Green 496:Nick Green 482:Nick Green 457:Nick Green 370:Nick Green 235:Wikiquette 48:{{helpme}} 31:Nick Green 2495:consensus 2435:has been 2431:The file 2374:site bans 2301:site bans 2228:site bans 2147:rationale 2088:this list 2025:site bans 1152:Portal(s) 1095:and/or a 798:Thanks - 584:Thanks - 455:system.-- 396:Knowledge 358:OrphanBot 331:image tag 290:Utilities 212:Help Desk 2507:Thanks, 2084:CC-BY-SA 1835:to the 1531:Predator 1490:Compunet 1478:sone. - 1230:Dear All 1227:advised. 929:round.-- 517:Dicklyon 472:Dicklyon 453:Viewdata 420:fair use 240:Civility 2179:Stefan2 1974:deleted 1440:with a 882:systems 708:to the 35:Welcome 2464:or on 2015:. 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