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seeking to connect seemingly unconnected events even when authorities cannot. As it is, Knowledge is woefully useless compared to Heavy and
Everipedia which have no such high barrier to covering any event with substantial news coverage or even minimal coverage in blogs with a conservative or tabloid agenda which are often the only reliable media for attacks which are not covered by "reliable" sources. There are hundreds of unexplained crimes and accidents where the motive or criminal aspects are unproven or a credible possibility. Hammer and ax attacks like this deserve attention when they are done at landmarks that are strategic to terrorists and when they leave evidence to authorities that they are inspired by terrorist movements like ISIS. There should be no difference in coverage just because one is proven to be inspired or directed by terrorists, or may have been staged to look like road rage, breakup rage, rage over workplace firing, intoxication or mental illness, when the only difference is motive.
392:. As the closing editor wrote at a similar article that was rushed to deletion by Mr. X a couple of weeks ago and closed as No consensus, "Additionally, the incident happened very recently, and new information is still coming out about it. This article was created on the day of the incident, and the AfD was started 8 hours after the article was created (which is discouraged by WP:RAPID for this very reason). There will be a better opportunity for a stronger consensus to emerge after the dust settles." As an editor who regularly works on terrorism-related articles, I have real fear that rushing articles on breaking news events of this kind can tend to
440:, and other factors. This article is about a person who hit another person with a hammer. Meanwhile, we don't have independent articles for the daily massacres in Syria and Iraq; street executions in the Philippines; or for the five people who were brutally murdered in Orlando, Florida yesterday. We need to instill some perspective into our content decisions and not simply try to promote an project-wide viewpoint that the world is besieged by Islamist terrorism.-
1880:, a former Navy officer. Soderberg was in the locked-down cathedral, tweeting with great éclat. My point here is that not only the proposed redirect, but a redirect to any of the lists or articles from which this article is linked would represent a loss of functionality for the project. By keeping the page, we enable detailed information to be found and discovered by our readers.
52:. Apart from one or two lone comments advocating deletion, it's clear that consensus is to keep this article in one form or another. There is no consensus whether to keep as a stand-alone article or redirect/merge it to a list of such attacks but that's not something that has to be decided at AfD but can always be proposed on the talk page. Regards
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the final decision to announce what a plan that had been proposed but not decided upon in the wake of this event. That is, it was unclear whether the Notre Dame attack caused Macron to finalize his decision or to move an already firm decision forward. Because this was unclear, I worded it very carefully. But do
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Again, the question isn't "Is the article written?", much less "Is it bigger than article X?". The question is whether each and every terrorist attack is encyclopedic before they trigger any notable events beyond "Someone attacked people with a hammer at Notre Dame
Cathedral". If the French President
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a thing called "2017 Notre Dame attack"--we're like CNN making up names for events. There is of course no coverage of this event anywhere else but in the news, nor will there be for a long time, if ever. So the suggestion to search JSTOR or Google Books is ludicrous, and even if there were hits there
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I did not fabricate, please rescind your slander. What I wrote was that Macron "announced the creation of a new intelligence task force..." This is accurate. Anyone following events, or reading the links will understand the a reform was contemplated and that Macron either moved it forward or made
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What useful information? Do we need extra details about how person x recited the Lord's prayer while being locked inside the church? The article can be summed up be saying "An
Algerian student named Farid Ikken, injured an officer with a hammer then was shot in response by police. Ikken was an award
1447:, I've been around long enough to have a pretty decent idea of how many articles we have, but thank you for the pointer. Now, "we've done a good enough job of making it notable"--a possibly Freudian slip. Blowing it up, with maps and flags and fancy names, makes it notable: you are suggesting we are
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Coverage of this attack in the U.S. was on an "intense and massive scale" on
Tuesday and Wednesday last. Truly, led the news at the top of the hour, front page photos. Regional newspapers and broadcast media running interviews with locals who were in or near the Cathedral. I won't speculate as to
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There is too much international coverage, there should be a WP:OBVIOUSTERRORISTATTACK to ban the standard drill dozens of editors immediately trying to whitewash every terrorist attack, and every terrorist style crime where the motive is "unclear" as per WP:NOTNEWS or not WP:NOTABLE even when it is
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Can you respond to my comment by sharing why you chose that particular list as a merge target? To me the difficult of choosing which list to merge this or any specific terrorist attack to is a fundamental argument against merging. It makes specific incidents so much harder to find that if we keep
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luring and killing of two gay men in
Seattle and a student motorist in New Jersey, even seeming random and not notable crimes which are unexplained should be treated as suspected terrorist attacks as long as they receive verifiable local coverage. Knowledge can be a useful resource for researchers
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Besides which, an AfD isn't an instant process. In the event that the French cabinet does something significant as a response to this (or in the event that something else significant happens as a result of this), I for one am happy to revise my opinion and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one to do
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worldwide and content continues to be added. There is no sound rationale for deletion, and if this were deleted for reasons of being considered "minor" (in the eyes of the deleter), then about 1/2 of the
Knowledge, with articles with less sources and less edits, would have to be deleted too, for
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Would possibly be inclined to agree with nominator when this first broke, but details that have now come out, especially regarding the unusual perpetrator makes it noteworthy in my opinion. Also 900 people locked in for hours followed by the French
President launching a new counter-terrorism task
240:: Where will we draw the line as to what is too minor and what is not? Just keep it. There are plenty of articles about less significant things. We shouldn't arbitrarily choose which events are significant. Everyone could be covered in a different article. And what relevance does a newspaper hold?
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Partly because new information continues to emerge. But also because the useful details are inevitably lost when an article is merged into capsule summary on a list. And also because the
Cabinet has reacted by using this latest attack as the occasion on which to announce the creation of a new
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had a large photo of this indicent at the top of the front page, and that the story in the Times and in a number of other
American papers, both national and regional papers, was reported from Paris, i.e., not an echo of a wire service story. The story also led the the news on NPR &
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I would not personally have chosen to delete well-sourced information from an article while arguing that the article should be deleted because it lacks information; it gives more the feel of marking cards in a friendly hand of poker than working collegiality to build an
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That attack killed 20 people, here you have a lone man swinging a hammer at a cop. Two police officers were killed today as well in a shootout with gunmen who probably belonged to
Islamic State in Egypt's northern Sinai, where is the article about this?
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not a "routine" or "minor" incident. It has received worldwide attention. There will be no consensus to delete this. However, I would not object to a redirect if there is consensus that we are better waiting to see if an article should be spun out
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But the article has well already been written, meaning we've done a good enough job of making it notable. Do you have any idea how many articles there are? Millions. If you're telling me even a majority of them are more notable than this, I'd be
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front page news for a month. If these seemingly random attacks are coordinated, then we can expect coordinated active measures in media to downplay or spread disinformation or otherwise censor coverage of such events. In the case of the
2485:; that it was announced the day after this one mad person's attack is coincidence. E.M. Gregory, can you please use phrases like "intense and massive scale" a bit more judiciously? It sounds like the claims made in presidential tweets.
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to be notable. Why are you trying to do the job of the news sites? We're not bad at it, and it's sexy to get it up quickly with pictures and maps and flags for responses (I sure hope we have some response...)--but it's not our job.
2586:. My argument, and that of other editors, is simply that the attack is notable not because my personal opinion, but because politicians and the international press have deemed it notable. We follow sources, and the sources exist.
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so. As at this precise moment, though, a redirect is an eminently sensible approach to take. I'm also not sure Knowledge's role is to "make something notable", so much as it is to write about things which have already become so.
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per those advocating same. If and when this generates enough material to warrant a separate article, no problem to recreate it, but at the moment it's (and I'm not sure this is a phrase I want to use) a "run of the mill" attack.
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But I said above, details continue to be published and, since he is said to be recovering, press coverage will continue as he goes to trial. Not to mention the impact of this event on French security services already noted in
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I misspoke in that, but it doesn't matter. The point is that it's already written and longer than most articles, and has several sources. What point is there in deleting it? Other than perhaps making some people feel important
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comes out and bans hammers from sale (to take a silly potential outcome), then there's patently an encyclopedic value in having this article. If life carries on much as it did beforehand, then there doesn't appear to be.
1312:. I promised I'd review my opinion if and when the facts changed, and it appears that the consequences (and possibly the circumstances) of this particular incident are sufficiently distinctive as to merit a keep...just.
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2436:"During the day, CNN led the story with big, important-looking "Breaking News" graphics. That night, the incident in Paris led the evening news all over the country. Newspapers worldwide were all over the story."
1223:, or find some redirection target. Not every headline or set of headlines is an article. BTW, that template with search avenues on top of this AfD should indicate what the problem is with such articles. We don't
1090:- Once again, the keep rationales for this event are terribly unconvincing and misunderstand the point of NOTNEWS. Knowledge does not wait a few months for events to be notable; they either are or they are not.
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Worth pointing out that yes, the perpetrator is a noted journalist. For instance, he won second place in the European Commission's 2009 "EU Journalist Award", established under the EC's PROGRESS programme.
276:"These "other stuff exists" arguments can be valid or invalid." Not News could be applied to any article on an event, I miss your point. Do a certain number of people have to die for it to be notnews?
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This attack alone isn't notable, the attacks as a whole and the collective response are though. I would suggest someone summarize France's response to terrorism in the country in another article. -
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S. Me, I'd not only like to hear how the French cabinet responds when they meet tomorrow, I'd like to wait the full 7 days, maybe longer to see the degree to which the press responds with SIGCOV.
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the project by forcing editors - especially new editors - to run the AfD gauntlet. I strongly suggest that Mr X withdraw this. If his opinion is unchanged a few months, he can nominate it then.
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https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3774338/isis-fanatic-40-behind-notre-dame-hammer-attack-secretly-radicalised-himself-online-and-was-totally-unknown-to-cops-so-is-it-impossible-to-stop-lone-wolves/
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Yup, had its time in the news and now it is past. The attacker here seems to be more notable than the attack itself though so a merger into a new article might be a better solution. -
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Untrue. Drmies did not "find" the source, he just read the link. Misread it, actually. The Centre was under discussion, but it was not "ordered" a month ago. See my comment below.
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The correct thing to do would be to spin out things into articles when they get to be too big. Nobody is saying this isn't notable just that it shouldn't have its own article yet. -
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was created, and the state of emergency extended for an additional few months." Add in a few extra details to that and you have the entire article summarized in a paragraph. -
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I decline. There is no time constraint on deleting articles. Editors should use their judgement based on common practice, content policies, nature of the subject,
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1876:: Clinton advisor, American national security expert and diplomat who is widely spoken of as a probable candidate to unseat sitting Republican congressman
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created as a result of this attack; in fact, it was announced a month ago. I'm not sure if that affects your opinion but I thought it is worth mentioning.
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Of course it is over. But so are several other terrorist incidents over the years. And we have articles about those. That is a null and void comment.--
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consistency. As the latter is unlikely to happen, the deletion of this page and not of the others would show clear bias/censorship by the deleters.
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Okay can you point to where this article would apply? Lacking in depth sources is a red flag when it comes to notability for a stand alone article. -
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1975:, but about the unusually well-educated perp, I make no doubt that the article will continue to be expanded with useful and interesting information.
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1840:) But mostly keep because such merges of well-sourced attacks are dysfunctional. This article is already linked from the proposed Merge target:
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is not an argument. Drmies' point was the wave of media coverage about the event is over. No one here can claim it is sustained unless they have a
221:. Not every attack in the world needs its own article. If not for the "terrorist" label this kind of story could be found in a local newspaper. -
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winning journalist who lived in France who claimed to be a "soldier of the caliphate". As a response to the incident a new task force called the
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It does ever so slightly, but probably not enough to change my faintest-of-keeps as the sort of "bottom line". Thanks for the heads-up, though.
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Reported stories are not assigned/written for "routine" attacks in foreign cities. Such stories are testament to the notability of this attack.
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that many incidents on that page are bluelinked.) But it is also linked from a number of other articles, including not only the obvious
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341:. Or who and when do we decide an attack is big enough to be included? There are far less relevant incidents who has gotten an article, like
2440:. He is outraged that "a possible terrorist with a hammer thousands of miles away gets more public attention than a mass murder in Orlando."
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2448:) 01:17, 11 June 2017 (UTC) Coverage on such an intense and massive scale would probably establish notability even if coverage now ended.
529:: It's an obviously notable event with reliable sources provided. Each terrorist attack has an article including minor events just like
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that jihadist is recovering in hospital and has been charged with attempted murder, so there will and be a trial and ensuing coverage.
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An impact cleverly fabricated/suggested in the article, which doesn't note that the "new counter-terrorism task force" was ordered
1671:- attack has recieved world wide attention. The attacker was a noted journalist. Article is in good shape and with good sources. --
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The French President now plans to extend the 'State of Emergency' and implement additional security measures due to this event
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There has to be significant coverage which is lacking here. The content can easily be summarized in the redirect I proposed. -
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The attack is notable as is the ongoing terrorist attacks in France. Its a continuing stream that can easily be summarized. -
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note of 9 June, here is a BBC article dated 11 June and here is an article from the Sun also dated 11 June. Looks like
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They are testament to the newsworthiness of this attack; tomorrow we'll have wrapped fish in it. Surely you know this.
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the same reasons as the others. Not to mention that many an article already has linked to this article on Knowledge.
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rather than eager in writing up things that just happened. Yes, a majority of our articles are more notable than this
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No; "the question" is whether reliable sources treat this specific attack as notable, by the standards laid out at
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could provide the long-term impact angle that most such articles don't have. Not going with keep though, more of a
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Yes, the world knows that France has been under continued terrorist attacks, it is part of a larger picture. -
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True premise. When one has articles from the foreign press for 2 days is not international coverage. sorry. --
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per knowledgekid. Only minor coverage even in France- the English attacks are receiving heavier coverage! —
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you are not likely to get them under this exact name. I hope I'm not the only one seeing this as a problem.
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2219:: Not less minor than many articles on sporting events. 900 tourists stuck for two hours in Notre Dame --
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is absolutely correct: the "event" is over, but international coverage continues well past his comment!
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further up the page, which must have escaped your memory. Could you strike this second !vote, please. –
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Even as you were asserting that coverage is "over," a columnist for an American big city daily, the
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Thanks for the reminder, months later that attack still has not stood out. It should be merged into
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1610:. A guy tried to hit a police officer with a hammer, and was shot. Not really a significant event
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news, and given our high scores on Google searches that could be true--all the more reasons to be
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The National Centre for Counter Terrorism was ordered a month ago per the source Drmies found. -
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Let's see how this develops first before deleting articles, it's receiving worldwide attention.
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Either way, it was publicly announced as a result of this attack, so my revised comment stands.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
2176:: Is the Knowledge running out of server space? No. This event has been widely covered by
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that within hours there are stories reported from Paris (ie NOT wire service stories) in the
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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2287:: This attack has received significant coverage in news sources across several nations (
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With new details pouring out of the European press, not only about the creation of the
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if you have time, I recommend you read Drmies source further below. The task force was
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Gregory from what I read on the source above it appears this has had little impact. -
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Article about a minor incident that could easily be summarized in another article. -
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that attacker's injuries are "minor," so there will be a trial; ongoing coverage.
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This is going to eventually lapse unless it extended again by some other means.
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has also an article while that was a failed attempt and resulted in no injuries.
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an attack at one of the worlds biggest tourist attractions is a notable event.
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An interesting philosophy would be 'let's see how this develops first before
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E.M.Gregory, there are so many more articles to write on topics that are
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You nominated it. Then 12 editors weighed in, all twelve iVoting to keep.
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That was a major bomb plot.... this was a lone guy swinging a hammer. -
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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/2017 shooting of Paris police officers
598:, let's wait and see how this develops before wasting time on an AfD.
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why. But the coverage for about 36 hours was massive and intensive.
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a great believer in the pen being mightier than the sword, eh...? —
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Attack was significant enough as it occured at a major location. The
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of that event that made it stand out from other terrorist events. -
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1872:, and from a what-were-the-odds windfall for American politician
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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the article and link it from all of the relevant lists/articles.
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False premise. International coverage is already on the page.
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that a plan is only a plan until it is formally announced.
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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/2017 Paris machete attack
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A 'noted' journalist? Or, actually, a 'journalist'? —
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Note: today is 9 June. Seems like the event is over.
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that while article creator (497 edits to date) is a
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573:list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions
2658:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40236305
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2406:Note: This debate has been included in the
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571:Note: This debate has been included in the
493:Note: This debate has been included in the
474:Note: This debate has been included in the
455:Note: This debate has been included in the
495:list of Europe-related deletion discussions
476:list of France-related deletion discussions
457:list of Events-related deletion discussions
2408:list of Crime-related deletion discussions
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1858:Islamic terrorism in Europe (2014–present)
1633:list of Crime-related deletion discussions
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1459:(do not confuse an article with a topic).
1111:, but that doesn't need to happen in AfD.
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1842:List of terrorist incidents in June 2017
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1008:List of terrorist incidents in June 2017
958:List of terrorist incidents in June 2017
219:List of terrorist incidents in June 2017
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2149:There is nothing on the medium term. --
1973:National Centre for Counter Terrorism
1901:National Centre for Counter Terrorism
1862:ISIL-related terror attacks in France
1834:National Centre for Counter Terrorism
658:National Centre for Counter Terrorism
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1866:Notre Dame Cathedral bombing attempt
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1850:List of Islamist terrorist attacks
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798:this similar AfD on the similar
1705:Well, he's certainly noted now.
1158:Why should that be surprising?
989:which closed as withdrawn/keep.
964:. Not encyclopaedic incident. —
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
2126:Just noting that yesterday 's
1836:( a tough job just awarded to
1107:- Possibly this will become a
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2303:and of course France). Meets
2068:No international coverage. --
1838:Pierre de Bousquet de Florian
414:A redirect isn't deletion. (
1999:force are lasting effects.
1371:You guys have awfully good
1274:- as well explained above.
2711:
1870:2017 Louvre machete attack
343:2017 Portland train attack
2638:10:07, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
2596:23:03, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
2571:14:30, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
2551:23:03, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
2524:23:10, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
2495:14:11, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
2477:01:17, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
2458:11:19, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
2419:09:32, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
2395:08:40, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
2367:07:01, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
2349:05:05, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
2278:07:15, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
1509:User:El cid, el campeador
1357:22:41, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
1342:20:17, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
739:03:07, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
723:00:21, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
697:14:32, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
66:09:42, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
2683:Please do not modify it.
2331:20:44, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
2317:14:13, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
2256:12:22, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
2229:09:12, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
2212:14:50, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
2191:14:16, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
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2078:12:50, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
2061:12:20, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
2030:10:08, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
2009:06:23, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
1985:17:54, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1957:18:00, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1936:17:54, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1913:16:57, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1890:15:50, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1864:, but also the similar
1820:13:35, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1802:12:28, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1767:15:14, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
1740:10:22, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1715:10:04, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1700:09:40, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1681:09:31, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
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1644:03:22, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1624:02:52, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1579:13:34, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1561:10:17, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1541:02:56, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1525:10:19, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1511:'s point is well taken,
1502:02:47, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1487:02:43, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1469:12:19, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1439:02:40, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
1422:02:26, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
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887:18:45, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
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846:18:37, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
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651:17:56, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
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209:17:09, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
32:Please do not modify it.
1310:Exceptionally weak keep
985:also the similarity to
1249:. This is why we have
531:June 2017 Kabul attack
80:2017 Notre Dame attack
72:2017 Notre Dame attack
1494:El cid, el campeador
1431:El cid, el campeador
802:; (an attack on the
278:El cid, el campeador
254:This is why we have
242:El cid, el campeador
2044:D.C. sniper attacks
1854:Notre-Dame de Paris
1130:Wall Street Journal
830:Terrorism in France
776:articles' :) —
2048:Ali Muhammad Brown
656:Striking, because
2421:
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834:nothing came out
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1538:Schreit mich an
1484:Schreit mich an
1354:Schreit mich an
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2483:a month ago
2469:E.M.Gregory
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2442:E.M.Gregory
2309:Skr15081997
2264:, you have
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2100:E.M.Gregory
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2022:E.M.Gregory
1977:E.M.Gregory
1949:E.M.Gregory
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1656:E.M.Gregory
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1513:WP:PRESERVE
1377:E.M.Gregory
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1182:E.M.Gregory
1146:E.M.Gregory
991:E.M.Gregory
852:E.M.Gregory
812:E.M.Gregory
756:MookiePlays
715:E.M.Gregory
398:E.M.Gregory
165:free images
2646:References
2630:XavierItzm
2183:XavierItzm
1759:XavierItzm
1612:WP:NOTNEWS
1276:Neutrality
1251:WP:NOTNEWS
1012:WP:NOTNEWS
918:WP:NOTNEWS
434:WP:NOTNEWS
416:WP:TOOSOON
394:WP:DISRUPT
386:WP:NEWBIES
260:WP:NOTNEWS
2688:talk page
2584:Straw man
2270:Sigersson
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2204:Sigersson
2151:Panam2014
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1733:O Fortuna
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1105:Snow Keep
960:, as per
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339:WP:EVENTS
319:O Fortuna
37:talk page
2690:or in a
2467:article.
2252:contribs
2240:unsigned
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1792:later.--
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637:redirect
596:WP:RAPID
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313:Redirect
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124:View log
39:or in a
2289:Germany
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2244:Rævhuld
774:writing
683:Ansh666
600:Edwardx
526:Rævhuld
438:WP:10YT
347:Rævhuld
335:WP:NOTE
171:WP refs
159:scholar
97:protect
92:history
2626:Drmies
2622:Drmies
2487:Drmies
2379:WP:OSE
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1868:, and
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971:(talk)
804:Louvre
635:Yeah,
258:, and
256:WP:OSE
143:Google
101:delete
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186:JSTOR
147:books
131:Stats
118:views
110:watch
106:links
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