793:
And, besides, putting a link at the top of the page which allows people to go to a version of the page without images it a lot simpler than turning off images in most browsers. Also: Why should a person not be allowed to look at pictures of bunny rabbits just because they have different values than the left-wing people on Wiki. I can not support the idea of giving people with different values than left-wingers a discrimitory experience.
484:. The only difference is that in this article, it doesn't show you a picture of a clitoris? Well, that seems fine to me; I think it's perfectly reasonable to have secondary versions of articles that censor sexual or violent imagery. So keep. I'm no prude myself, but I want people to be comfortable using our articles in schools, and for parents to be comfortable having their children read them.
281:. POV, but of the view that viewing torture, murder, and dead corpses is something people might not want to see. It's the same thing, but I personally find the view that people will be offended/disgusted/scarred by an actual depiction of the female form much, much more offensive. So my view stands, but perhaps one should substitute "endorsement of POV" with "precedent."
276:
Good point, Anthony; perhaps precedent is the wrong word. To say that the use of a censored or abridged version in one instance validates another is faulty. The Abu Ghraib page is not a policy. IMHO it shouldn't exist. I suppose I haven't invested the time and effort to fight it because its existence
792:
A person can not do something they don't know how to do. The problem here is the fact that
English does not have an indicitive/subjunctive distinction. Yes, a person could do something they don't know how to do...once they learn how to do it. But, until they learn, they don't know how to do it.
761:
All browsers that I have ever encountered (and I've seen a lot of them since NCSA Mosaic in 1994) have the ability to download images, or not download images--it's usually a switch in prefs. I use this facility when visiting a page that contains images that I don't like to look at. Just because
895:
Could someone remind me? What *specifically* was the content problem with those already-censored pictures which could be viewed on any network television? I have seen those pictures and, set beside pictures of people jumping out of a tower block or being swallowed up by a tidal wave, those
298:
You raise a disturbing point about the discussion for
Knowledge (XXG):Votes for deletion/Clitoris (censored). The decision for this page was 'no clear consensus to delete', not 'clear consensus to keep'. This decision should not be used as precedent in other decisions. That article should be
800:
I think it is reasonable to expect that people who want to use the world wide web will first learn how to operate a web browser. I'm shocked to find people here freely admitting that they do not, and apparently clinging to the belief that this is somebody else's problem.
780:
Tech-savvy is the wrong word. Modern browsers are designed for GUI operation, anyone can do this. The user's refusal to learn how to operate his browser in no way absolves him of personal responsibility for controlling what he does and does not choose to download.
535:
Hey
Centauri, what happened to your stirring arguments of keeping every minute detail for prosperity on Knowledge (XXG)? If you want this deleted but the others kept, there is a lack of consistency in your arguments. I agree however that this should be
170:
as unnecessary duplication and a bad precedent. The original article already has a content warning. That's enough. Plus I just noticed the censored version includes links to the uncensored version, so that renders the POV of this version somewhat moot.
450:
articles in the
Knowledge (XXG) where you can't see a clitoris, there should be one where you can (and if we ever get a better picture the nominal one will be it). (NB: this goes also for beheadings, in case anyone's sophistry knee is jerking towards
958:
This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.
686:. Redundant. Evil precedent, forking to satisfy someone's POV is a horrible idea. If you want to fork, do it outside the main project. Feel free to create the "Happy Shiny Kid-Friendly No Nekkidness At All"-opedia. But don't do it here.
109:
753:
I don't understand why wikipedians would not want to allow people to choose whether they want to see an image of that sort or not - Shouldn't people have the right to choose to learn about something without an image of this sort.
528:. This sets an extremely bad precedent, suggesting that it is OK for people with non-mainstream views or unique agendas to create their own sanitised alternative articles instead of accepting the prevailing community consensus. --
191:. If the "objectionable content" is anywhere on the site, the censorware people will block the entire site anyway, and removing "objectionable" but accurate content in the interest of pandering to censors is abhorrent. --
547:
There's obviously a big difference between deleting valuable content which otherwise wouldn't exist at all on
Knowledge (XXG), and deleting a redundant sanitized version of an already existing unsanitized
55:
Delete, since the article adds no value nor new information to the repository. The picture in the main article is not that great... but it's better than nothing. It's certainly not pornographic. --
232:. I will not fly a kite of speculative technology in the face of clear opposition., knowing as I do that the solution is in the browser of the person who doesn't want to look at the pictures. --
733:
I am so sorely tempted to simply add the offending picture if only for the delicious irony of being accused of vandalism. Oh well, how about just a picture of a little man in a canoe? --
812:
Incidentally, what place does the term "left wing" have in this discussion? Either a person can control his web browser or he cannot. His politics have no bearing on the matter. --
517:
article is going to be unprepared for its content. Perhaps we could do with a template to warn about such content in articles, but having seperate censored articles is silly.
315:
as invalid fork. Real encyclopedias don't censor themselves because some fundies don't like pictures of the human body. Perhaps they need their own nice clean white wiki. -
90:
I did not create this page, and the VfD marker was removed in the process of reverting the content back; content that shouldn't have been removed in the first place.
214:
Concur with
Anthony DiPierro. I expect this to be replaced by a transclusion version of some kind and will change vote if I see a suitable transclusion. --
856:. If you don't want to see a picture of a clitoris, don't look at an encylopaedic entry for one. If you want to know just the definition of the word,
773:
Not everyone is so tech-savvy. I don't know how to do that, and didn't even know I could until now, and I've been on the net for almost ten years.
474:- The utter stupidity of the fact that there is a debate about this just astounds me. Why don't these people go and start up www.wikicensored.org.
498:
17:
555:
If keeping every piece of trivia is "valuable" then I would disagree with you. Knowledge (XXG) is not a general knowledge database.
31:
Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
289:
572:
263:
575:. Sorry, but the 'They asked for it' argument doesn't work. I wouldn't be able to find a pic of a real clitoris in, say,
587:
270:
182:
339:
829:
From an encyclopedic standpoint, it seems to me that anyone curious and literate enough to look up the word
62:
Hard Delete. This is just another atempt by the mnority to force it's POV on
Knowledge (XXG) by any means.--
267:
179:
901:
817:
806:
786:
767:
677:
492:
456:
237:
219:
151:
353:
doesn't contain any pornography due to copyright issues, rather than any kind of censorship. It has been
48:
691:
762:
somebody puts a picture on a website, doesn't mean they're forcing me to download it and look at it. --
422:
I'm trying to think of a good reason why this should be kept, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
91:
77:
41:
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861:
704:
389:
847:
647:
518:
502:
447:
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372:
358:
159:
120:
84:
63:
436:. Invalid fork. We've been through all this before, and there was consensus not to do this. --
897:
813:
802:
782:
763:
674:
233:
215:
192:
884:
precedent, IMO. Someone looking for clitoris should know what it is already, in some sense.
687:
664:
403:
354:
302:
282:
266:. What's POV is keeping one but deleting the other. Both should be kept, or both deleted.
256:
27:
This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below.
949:
926:
885:
701:
616:
606:
386:
382:
316:
102:
83:
NB this person created the page and has deleted the VfD msg from the page at least one.--
908:
774:
734:
556:
541:
491:
Now this page has NPOV problems. s/parents/prudish parents who think biology is dirty/
485:
465:
437:
246:
844:
636:
602:
keep forking articles because people disagree with the content of other versions!!!
549:
529:
413:
229:
172:
155:
137:
73:
934:
871:
724:
331:
293:
202:
857:
385:, at least until a Knowledge (XXG) policy (or MediaWiki solution) is agreed upon.
916:
794:
755:
715:
660:
584:
475:
416:
399:
350:
343:
327:
119:
The end result may be the same, but the implementation is completely different.
113:
945:
603:
870:. can't have censored version of every article that someone finds disturbing
834:
744:
335:
154:) until a family-friendly imageblocking mediawiki option becomes available.
56:
579:
encyclopedia. It's not censorship, as it lets people choose which version
626:
514:
278:
134:
513:. This is an encyclopedia. I refuse to believe that anyone viewing the
178:
Delete as is, fork. If a non-fork version is made then move and keep.
326:
Knowledge (XXG) already censors itself. No images of pornography on
381:- use my suggested image censor fix (easier to maintain) as demo'd
880:, the prison abuse censorship should be viewed as a special case,
296:, the admin in charge of the previous VfD on said page comments: "
833:
will be helped by seeing a neutral picture of one, in context.
896:
pictures do not seem to be particularly objectionable. --
615:
as an abrogation of the principle of community consensus.
228:. Abrogating commitment to reconsider. See discussion on
650:
571:, although I would prefer other alternatives. See
743:, this is a fork, a misleading, unhelpful fork.
398:How many times must a man(/woman) vote it down?
357:, but there's been no major feeling either way.
288:Pursuant to above, there's a telling comment in
8:
501:censored for the 'protection of minors'.
290:Talk:Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse (censored)
255:. POV POV POV. Horrible precedent. Fork.
150:eep but move to non-POV title (such as
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
573:Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse (censored)
264:Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse (censored)
262:Wasn't the precedent already set by
39:42 votes to delete, 6 votes to keep.
540:on the grounds of it being a fork.
108:The precedent has already been set
700:, unnecessary and invalid fork. --
24:
349:Nonsense. As far as I can tell
277:isn't as offensively POV as in
1:
944:arguments have convinced me.
33:The result of the debate was
961:Please do not edit this page
858:look it up in the wiktionary
716:Ëzhiki (erinaceus europeaus)
299:evaluated on its own merits.
29:This page is no longer live.
978:
44:03:46, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
653:) 11:13, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
430:\ 23:28, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
340:Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse
323:19:59, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)
105:18:08, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)
954:20:11, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
937:11:07, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
850:03:05, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
789:19:17, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
770:16:11, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
758:15:31, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
727:00:20, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)
718:22:29, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
667:11:59, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
609:06:32, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
590:02:00, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
552:02:52, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
544:02:37, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
532:01:30, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
488:00:33, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
455:in their weejee board.)
440:23:52, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)
375:20:37, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)
346:23:46, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
338:page, warning at top of
305:04:09, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
273:12:46, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
259:19:56, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
249:19:42, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)
240:21:52, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)\
207:19:25, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)
195:19:22, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)
123:01:26, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
116:23:43, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
87:17:14, 2005 Jan 5 (UTC)
80:16:51, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
72:. See the discussion at
919:02:55, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
904:02:32, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
892:01:50, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
874:20:46, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
864:18:57, 2005 Jan 8 (UTC)
837:00:54, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
820:19:58, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
809:19:54, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
797:19:45, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
777:18:44, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
747:05:22, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
737:02:49, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
707:20:13, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
694:15:15, 2005 Jan 6 (UTC)
680:15:00, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
629:09:07, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
619:08:37, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
559:02:56, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
521:00:58, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
505:11:20, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
495:06:50, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
478:00:30, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
468:00:50, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
459:23:54, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
419:23:25, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
406:21:55, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
392:21:03, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
361:00:58, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
285:01:29, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
222:19:31, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
185:19:08, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
175:18:53, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
164:18:49, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
144:18:10, 2005 Jan 5 (UTC)
101:Delete, bad precedent.
94:17:31, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
66:16:41, 2005 Jan 5 (UTC)
59:00:48, 2005 Jan 6 (UTC)
37:. Final vote tally was
499:Knowledge (XXG) is not
710:For crying out loud,
659:, what RickK said. --
625:, pov we don't need.
253:Extremely Hard Delete
453:call him a hypocrite
224:Changed vote. Still
152:Clitoris (no images)
907:Why not merge with
49:Clitoris (censored)
911:? (Just kidding;
678:(spill your mind?)
212:delete as is, fork
952:
644:
640:
493:Blair P. Houghton
457:Blair P. Houghton
321:
162:
142:
969:
950:
642:
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320:
205:
160:
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138:
977:
976:
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965:
925:. I agree with
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938:
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909:Thomas Bowdler
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838:
827:
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741:Extreme Delete
738:
728:
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695:
681:
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630:
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610:
591:
583:want to view.
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334:page, link on
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317:Keith D. Tyler
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699:
698:Strong delete
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684:Strong delete
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671:Strong Delete
669:
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527:
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519:David Johnson
516:
512:
511:Strong Delete
509:
504:
503:David Johnson
500:
497:
494:
490:
489:
487:
483:
480:
477:
473:
470:
467:
464:
463:Strong delete
461:
458:
454:
449:
446:. There are
445:
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435:
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429:
425:
421:
418:
415:
414:Talk:Clitoris
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373:DCEdwards1966
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359:David Johnson
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19:
960:
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941:
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898:Tony Sidaway
881:
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867:
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845:Ben Brockert
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814:Tony Sidaway
803:Tony Sidaway
783:Tony Sidaway
764:Tony Sidaway
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675:Mindspillage
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524:Very strong
510:
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378:
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332:Autofellatio
319:
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294:User:Rossami
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234:Tony Sidaway
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216:Tony Sidaway
211:
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198:
193:Kelly Martin
188:
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147:
130:
69:
38:
34:
28:
26:
387:violet/riga
351:pornography
342:page, etc.
328:pornography
92:Cookiecaper
78:Cookiecaper
931:Neuropedia
862:Neuropedia
617:Lacrimosus
577:World Book
548:article.--
133:, fork. --
103:Neutrality
70:Super-Keep
872:RustyCale
775:Everyking
735:LeeHunter
557:Megan1967
542:Megan1967
486:Everyking
466:CiaraBeth
438:The Anome
355:discussed
336:Nick Berg
247:K1Bond007
890:Roast me
831:clitoris
648:An Liúdr
550:Centauri
530:Centauri
515:Clitoris
279:clitoris
173:23skidoo
935:Markaci
725:Tuf-Kat
688:grendel
643:OLLISON
538:Deleted
444:Ba-leet
268:anthony
204:Xezbeth
180:anthony
951:(Talk)
946:Jayjg
942:Delete
923:Delete
917:Edeans
913:delete
878:Delete
868:Delete
854:Delete
841:Delete
795:Samboy
756:Trodel
731:Delete
722:Delete
712:delete
657:Delete
633:Delete
623:Delete
613:Delete
599:cannot
596:. We
594:Delete
585:Vacuum
526:DELETE
476:Jooler
472:Delete
448:442525
434:Delete
428:GRider
424:Delete
417:Samboy
400:Ejrrjs
396:Delete
379:Delete
369:Delete
344:Samboy
313:Delete
244:Delete
226:delete
199:Delete
189:Delete
168:Delete
131:Delete
114:Samboy
85:Jirate
64:Jirate
42:Joyous
35:delete
927:hfool
886:hfool
705:Quill
702:Oldak
661:Conti
404:What?
303:Timbo
283:Timbo
257:Timbo
16:<
940:The
929:and
915:.)
902:Talk
848:(42)
835:Wyss
818:Talk
807:Talk
787:Talk
768:Talk
751:Keep
745:Wyss
692:khan
651:amán
604:Rick
581:they
569:Keep
482:Keep
412:See
410:Keep
383:here
238:Talk
220:Talk
161:T@lk
110:here
57:Rnbc
882:NOT
843:. —
639:OHN
627:bbx
426:.
390:(t)
371:--
156:JFW
135:fvw
112:.
963:.
948:|
933:.
860:—
801:--
781:--
754:--
714:!—
673:.
635:.
402:|
301:"
292:.
271:警告
201:.
183:警告
158:|
76:.
900:|
888:/
816:|
805:|
785:|
766:|
690:|
665:✉
663:|
646:(
641:C
637:J
607:K
588:c
236:|
218:|
148:K
140:*
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