1206:– I have added a new reference today. This one was published on Tuesday, yes it is from Wizards, but it points to notability since the books talks about how they are using the Death Knight (complete with new art) in the new 4th Edition game. If the sales of the 3rd edition are any indication, then we can expect that nearly 3 million copies of the book with the new Death Knight (the Monster Manual) will be sold. I recommend that with this latest information, the article edits, the fact that the original AfD did not adequately address the article, and the overwhelming number of keep votes that this be upgraded to
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myself would be nice) before there is nothing left on
Knowledge at all, unless it is something known to everyone worldwide. sadly a site that could be used to provide much information on many subjects seems to be being castrated to only subjects that are popular or of worldwide media concern/coverage. information however is NOT limited to only what everyone knows, and a site like wikipedia should not be harmed that it cannot provide information on little thing that may be hard to find information anywhere else in this, what is it called? oh yes, the "Information Age".
1067:- I have now added 16 inline citations. 3 were from the article before, 4 are from WotC/TSR with one of those detailing the Death Knight in the upcoming 4th Edition game (it was a featured article on the new game) and 9 are from third party independent publishers. This is just the information in my personal library. I am tracking down a reference that might indicate that the Death Knight was based in part on the
828:; if the creators of other games had been influenced by this Dungeons and Dragons character, they would have stated this explictly - you cannot imply influence with providing evidence of this link. I am begining to believe that you are hiding behind references and weasel words in order to disguise the lack of real-world notability.--
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That reviewer says that the Death Knight is "one of the more interesting additions in the book" can hardly be classed as reliable secondary source. For starters, that is hardly an assertion of notability; secondly it is a passing mention of the character in a review about another subject althogether.
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Plenty of reasons on this. Firstly, the nomination doesn't give a real reason for deletion, it simply says "not notable" without telling us why it's not. Secondly, the article goes beyond game guide information (just because it's from a game doesn't mean it's game guide). Thirdly, all of
Knowledge
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is sadly misplaced. What is needed is more than just a mention in a telephone directory; some analysis, context, critism, details of the characters origins, development. Instead there is long list of instances where the character has appeared in books. This stock character is going to pop up in lots
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the nominator should research what the article is about rather than jump to a conclusion about it, so based on the reason for deletion i say keep the article. also based on the fact that this entity is in many notable works, such as best selling novels as well as sourcebooks for the game itself, it
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opinions for are kept, so you might reassess your opinion. At any rate, I'd request that you comment on the issues related to the article rather than making things personal and condescendingly denigrating my understanding of policies here. This discussion is about whether or not this article should
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will make appear many times in multiple games and books - this is not in dispute; what is the issue here is did the appearance amount to anything notable: was the character given an important role, for instance, or did he make an important speech. I think you have proven that this stock character
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at the rate many of these notability tags are popping up, i could find thousands of things on
Knowledge that i have never heard of. would that mean they are not notable to everyone, or just myself? again i think the issue of notability needs to be addressed or explained to some people (including
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describes this fictional character perfectly. For instance, the intro to this article describles him as "a death knight", rather than giving him a name. The name does not really make a difference as they are all interchangeable; you can refer to him as the "Black Knight", "Evil Knight" or "Dark
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I admit that I am not a PhD in role-playing games, but I can differentiate between primary and secondary sources. For example, a (disputed) assertion has been made in the article that the Death Knight has "influences" on other games. I dispute this statement of fact as it is unsupported by any
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The outcomes of AFDs are not determined by a vote count. An AFD with a deletion nomination rooted in policy and 20 keep votes that were against policy would be (properly) closed as delete. I'm not saying there isn't consensus to keep here, just saying that it doesn't come from sheer numbers.
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article well referenced, well written and shows notability. The nominator and his sidekick are clearly out of their depth here--they make glaring factual mistakes in their statements and, which is more troubling, refuse to be corrected--the assumption of good will can only stretch so far.
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Easy to say but difficult to prove. If you look at the references you have added, you can see that they support the content related to the primary sources; that is where the is an instance of a Death Knight, you have added a reference. However, we already know that
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Notability is the real issue, not whether or not this is a stock character. Some stock characters are notable; some are not. If you want to argue that being a stock character is a valid reason for deletion, you should bring that up on the talk page for the policy.
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None of the references given provide any evidence of notability, nor do they assert any; they are primary sources that show that this stock character appears in many publications; none of them assert that the character is notable
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of the same name, but using the same character is not the same as having a direct influence on the designers or creators of a game and none of the sources you have provide proves this. The sources you have provided are
929:- What with all the "needs work!" templates at the head of that page, I would suggest someone sit down and address those concerns. If the article is still not worth keeping around at that time, scrap it.
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The sources provided at the time of writing are neither reliable secondary sources nor do they assert any notability; all of them refer to primary sources in which the stock character is mentioned. --
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Knight" (otherwise known as "Night Knight"). You will find lots of trivial sources on the internet mentioning the Death Knight, because when it comes to stock characters, one name fits all.--
795:
More to the point Gavin your opinion here is only that, your opinion, not policy. And until you actually read the sources for notability I have put here it is at best an uninformed opinion.
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Per Web
Warlock and others. The existence of multiple reliable sources indicates notability. AfD isn't the appropriate venue to discuss a merge; that's what article talk pages are for.
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Here might be a good place to disuss the notabilty of this character. Other than making appearances in lots of game guides, what do you think give this stock character notablity? --
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magazine, which in turn seems to have a nice stack of awards for an RPG magazine. Did you discuss other options with anyone else or ask if other sources are available? --
989:. "Fangz" should probably stick to topics he knows something about, or at the very least bother to read the articles in question. Knowledge works better that way. --
220:
Sure I do, but there seems to have been a surprising amount of confusion lately over that "game guide" bit: As you see from that link, it's specifically about game
619:
I see multiple reliable secondary sources asserting notability. The consensus here and on the talk page of the article will determine the outcome at any rate.
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Game guides go beyond advice. For example, an article listing the hit points of every monster in a game is game guide content, yet does not offer any advice.
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719:
You commented earlier that all of these are primary sources. That's incorrect; several of the sources listed are from secondary sources.
303:- There are references and mythological antecedents in various stories. Given 24 hours I could find quite a few new references for it.
1226:
We have two votes for delete (including the nom), one "rework", and fourteen keeps. If that's not consensus, I don't know what is.
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You know. Every time you say that I come up with about 5-7 independent sources. Currently I getting ready to go over the works of
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per
Webwarlock, per Poisonink, per whomever you choose, really. As D&D monsters go, this is one of the more notable ones.
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The use of the term "stock character" is irrelevant anyway, since being a stock character isn't a valid reason for deletion.
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1371:- The article in its original form was of quite doubtful notability, but the sources added seem more than enough.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Per multiple references. Also publication history & influences section add out of universe notability.--
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666:- I seriously doubt you have read any of these so your comment is little more than opinion or guesswork.
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Multiple references to reliable sources indicate notability. See the references section in the article.
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per
Webwarlock. "Fangz" should read articles before putting them up for AfD--this article is about a
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522:, I think this article is well covered on fansites and other game focused sites to be listed here. --
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be deleted; it's not about whether or not I understand the policies and guidelines here. Thanks.
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849:- If you have issues with it, then do the research yourself to confrim or deny the claims here.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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A RPG class which is not notable. This should be merged into a list of classes, or deleted.
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article now establishes notability. Thanks go to webwarlock, rray and others. Good job!
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Not to be overly nit-picky, but a Death Knight is not a class as you have described it.
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Which is why I focused on the research, citations, and edits first and votes last.
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then why am I so sleepy? ;) Thanks everyone else as well! I am just glad to help.
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And, several of the Keep votes came as a result of WebWarlock's tireless efforts.
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policies appear to be followed. I simply cannot see a reason for deletion. --
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645:. For all of the 2,600 other characters, you will find similar sources. --
470:. So please pay attention--your refusal to do so is making you look bad.--
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My understanding of policies here is fine. Most of the article I provide
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of places, but outside of those sources, there is no notability. --
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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who, if I remember correctly, had a Death Knight like figure in
183:. There is a lot more, but I don't feel like listing them all.
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which are used in
Dungeons and Dragon games. Unless there are
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and it was sited in other works as being an influence.
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No worries. I just wanted to make sure I understood.
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all the sources listed are TSR/WotC. Hence it fails
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
518:to demonstrate why this character has real-world
415:And it would be nice if you could use terms like
340:list of Game-related-related deletion discussions
1401:). No further edits should be made to this page.
375:oustide of Dungeons & Dragons game guides.--
1088:now there are sufficient third-party sources.
819:evidence. There may be other games with the a
947:I'll be doing exactly that tomorrow morning.
697:in many fictional worlds, but not that he is
8:
972:, not a class--the infobox even says that.--
1049:, unless third-party sources can be found.
507:That is debatable. There are over 2,600
338:: This debate has been included in the
272:Note: This debate has been added to the
745:I am afraid that your understanding of
146:Well, this has a number of mentions in
7:
462:: Just in case you haven't read it,
228:. It says it allows descriptions. --
1144:is not obscure to be not notable.
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1273:My comment was directed to BOZ.
1023:as per Webwarlock, Masterzora.
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
399:The Empire of the Necromancers
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701:per se in the real-world. --
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274:list of video game deletions
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1336:Glad you did—good work WW.
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773:
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465:
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433:
398:
360:
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185:
147:
124:
121:
72:Death knight
64:Death knight
45:
43:
31:
28:
1324:Web Warlock
1293:Web Warlock
1261:Web Warlock
1212:Web Warlock
1111:Cube lurker
1073:Web Warlock
949:Web Warlock
851:Web Warlock
797:Web Warlock
721:White Dwarf
668:Web Warlock
419:correctly.
403:Web Warlock
305:Web Warlock
224:, how-tos,
208:Web Warlock
1373:Goochelaar
1189:Freederick
897:Masterzora
369:notability
1025:Edward321
991:Poisonink
520:notablity
436:The term
421:Edward321
281:Fangz of
188:Fangz of
127:Fangz of
1320:tireless
1159:contribs
1128:Shemeska
1047:WP:RPG/N
1008:Iquander
974:Robbstrd
970:creature
931:Howa0082
742:Commment
472:Robbstrd
466:creature
371:of this
116:View log
1204:Comment
1151:shadzar
1065:Comment
847:Comment
816:Comment
751:WP:FICT
699:notable
685:Comment
664:Comment
638:Comment
599:Comment
560:Comment
505:Comment
460:Comment
434:Comment
89:protect
84:history
1069:draugr
1039:Delete
927:Rework
695:exists
643:per se
361:Delete
226:advice
222:guides
148:Dragon
93:delete
50:Canley
1345:shtak
1340:Pagra
1282:shtak
1277:Pagra
1250:shtak
1245:Pagra
1171:Hobit
747:WP:RS
256:shtak
251:Pagra
178:these
110:views
102:watch
98:links
16:<
1377:talk
1369:Keep
1328:talk
1311:talk
1297:talk
1265:talk
1232:talk
1216:talk
1193:talk
1184:Keep
1175:talk
1167:Keep
1155:Talk
1141:Keep
1132:talk
1124:Keep
1115:talk
1107:Keep
1094:talk
1086:Keep
1077:talk
1055:talk
1045:and
1043:WP:N
1029:talk
1021:Keep
1012:talk
1004:Keep
995:talk
987:Keep
978:talk
966:Keep
953:talk
935:talk
918:talk
914:Rray
910:Keep
901:talk
892:Keep
855:talk
834:talk
801:talk
783:talk
779:Rray
774:Keep
760:talk
749:and
729:talk
725:Rray
707:talk
672:talk
651:talk
625:talk
621:Rray
607:talk
586:talk
582:Rray
568:talk
547:talk
543:Rray
528:talk
492:talk
488:Rray
476:talk
447:talk
425:talk
407:talk
381:talk
351:talk
336:Note
326:talk
318:Keep
309:talk
301:Keep
212:talk
106:logs
80:talk
76:edit
54:talk
46:keep
1307:BOZ
1228:BOZ
342:.
322:BOZ
286:Blo
230:Kiz
193:Blo
175:all
152:Kiz
132:Blo
114:– (
1379:)
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196:od
135:od
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345:—
324:(
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239:r
234:o
210:(
161:r
156:o
118:)
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74:(
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