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economy, even for trivial things like ordering books. In certain dark economies, Bitcoin is even used exclusively. Our article gives Silk Road as an example of this. (I dont advise going on the TOR darknet to investigate, unless you're able to get expert help setting up your client side security. A great many folk have had their lives ruined by stumbling across the ultra-illegal material that infests the TDN, and then being "caught" by the authorities). Its interesting you should mention payment systems though. On the much cooler though less accessible ccc darknet, there's collaborative work going on to develop gear that will allow
Bitcoin to be used for a new near universal micro payments system (infeasible to do this with old school systems like Paypal due to high transaction costs.) Several believe this could herald the dawning of web 3.0 and a great Age of Inclusion!
1071:@ Volunteer Marek. Its never a waste of time when ARS members contribute to these discussions. As the Colonel demonstrates, our scholarly contributions can be educational for others, and they exemplify collegial conduct. I see my friend Lawrencekhoo, a highly regarded academic economist, has posted on your talk suggesting you withdraw the AfD due to the article's notability and NPOV. If you're concerned about avoiding the waste of further community time, please follow his advice.
565:. The book does suggest that coinage came about as a result of a debt/credit economy, but to link that idea to the naming and definition of a "monetary system" is further that the book goes (that I could find). The final sentence in the first paragraph of the article, seems to be making a link (synth) that is not articulated in the source material. I'm sure the "concept is not original" (per
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IOUs. Switching to the other sense, the dual creation of debt & money can still occur even with a gold standard, once banks start issuing paper money to supplement coinage. The difference is with commodity based systems, typically much less than 50% of new money is created simultaneously with debt - whereas with a debt based system the figure can exceed 95%.
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Knowledge. It absolutely supports the concept - one of the main themes of the book is that monetary systems are debt based, and have been since the very begining, apart from regions and periods where money was backed by bulion. If youre not interested enough in the book to read it closely, you can verify this by reading its many reviews.
1257:, one of the leading authorities on the relationship between econ and accounting, said that even such apparently simple concepts as Income and Savings can be "bad tools which break in our hands". This is all the more reason to have articles on these topics, so we can inform readers about the various perspectives.
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Desperately adding in sources on mostly irrelevant concepts, or folks' worries about the size of debt of various economies (also irrelevant) just to - for some stubborn, pointless and extremist-inclusionist reason - save this particular article is, well, to put it plainly, pathetic. And stupid, since
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Actually, whenever I see "a source added by an ARS" member I... sigh really loudly. This is a gross over generalization on my part but in many of those cases the adding of the usually related but irrelevant source is just a desperate attempt to "rescue" yet another pointless piece of synth and or. So
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and move (some of) the existing content to that article, perhaps with a note on the talk page, and delete this one. The present article has undergone metamorphosis several times in its past in regard to its scope, so starting a separate article should prevent that in the future. But sure, at the end
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Its true the concept doesnt have much currency among mainstream economists. (Although the Innes papers were highly regarded by Lord Keynes himself and have recently been populated by good professor Randy Wray.) But the concept is better known to other academics like anthropologists, sociologists and
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Substantial text was removed from this article prior to or during AfD. This notice is added to prevent misrepresentation of the potential of the article under discussion, compromise of the relevance of contributions to the discussion, and complication of the discussion's conduct and closure. This is
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Similar to most of the other sources, Graeber compares debt based systems to those based on commodity money, where money has its own intrinsic value. Again, not all monetary systems are debt based. Granted the distinction isnt as clear cut as we'd like. For
Graeber, even gold coins largely acted as
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again) because: a) the concept of the article is badly defined, b) the concept as invented by
Wikipedians is not really notable, though some parts may be, and c) any and all sources, no matter how irrelevant are shoved into the article in a desperate attempt to pretend that there are sources on the
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As ever, the
Colonel's example was well chosen. With Bitcoin even more than with a gold standard, you dont get the dual creation of money and debt. And it is a currency, not just a payment system like say Paypal. To answer your question, Bitcoin is being used all over the world in the above ground
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Or look at it another way - by reading the lede, as expanded by FeydHuxtable. The first part of the lede is about anthropologists' views of money and this whole credit/debt as origin of money theory, way back in antiquity. Then it transitions right into stuff about Nixon. From antiquity to 1971 in
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is entirely or even mostly about said speech; they're much broader, covering topics like the Life of Bryan, the presidential campaign or US coinage in general. This was a reasonable nom at the time, as per my first statement many professional economists might initially feel this is an excessively
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I'm still thinking about it but if the article, in its present state is renamed to "Credit Theory of Money" or something along those lines, that might work. The thing is, it might be just more "legit" to create such an article separately and move the text from here there. That way the histories of
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Again, this is all nice, but 100% irrelevant to this AfD. Please stop wasting my (and other people's) time. The statement "its rare for the sources to actually use the term "debt-based monetary system"" is pretty much as close of an admission from you as we're likely to get that *this* particular
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Mauss was one of the first to prominently challenge the classical liberal view about the prevalence of barter in early society. In gift economies, they still have the concept of debt but, it doesnt tend to be quantified. (ie., they'd recognise the concept of me being in the
Colonel's debt for his
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in question was still closed as delete, due to the deletionist hoards. Id normally like to point you at fruitful top tier locations as Id did when we talked a few years back, but in this case I cant recommend anything better than google scholar / google books, due to the way the best sources are
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to better reflect its contents. The current title, 'debt-based monetary system', seems like original research, and raises the questions "What makes the monetary system debt-based? And how could it be anything else?" which the article doesn't do a good job of answering. I assume it means a system
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You make some useful points. Assuming we dont get an unexpected result to this AfD, I'll likely further improve the article to address the issues you raise. The
Graeber source covers many of the intervening debt based systems which arose between antiquity and today. And it covers the concept of
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Polanyi introduced the "fictitious commoditiy" concept; he said the three great ones were land, labor and money. He discusses how after the dissolution of the gold standard, money ceased to backed by a real commodity and instead became "token money" - tokens representing debt, though admittedly
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I also have trouble understanding what it is you're going on about. Where did Laura Hale compile a massive and well reference table of sources? For this article? Where? I wanna see it? Or do you just mean that at one point one person compiled some list of sources for one, completely different,
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Im astonished that you can say that. As a rule, if ever you feel a source added by an ARS member doesnt support an article, you just need to read it more attentively. The
Graeber source was added by the Colonel himself, easilly one of the top 10 most meticulous and scholary editors in all of
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article (god, that one is horrible, rather than wasting time on this dead end one, why not try and bring that one up to ... not even FA, just NCA ("non crappy article")). Specifically these hundreds of sources that use the term "debt-based monetary system"? This is a good faith question, I'm
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from where youd be able to verify my claims with some quick searches. I mentioned this to indicate that within reason Im trying to be as helpful and specific as I can - its just this is a difficult topic, where its hard to get to grips with except by wide ranging reasearch. Adding to the
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says, "Critics of fractional reserve banking and the related fiat paper monetary system may use the term debt-based monetary system or credit-based monetary system to emphasize the role that credit plays in the current monetary system. These terms are not in general use..." This suggests
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Yes I could, but even with my special attention it would take allmost two hours to compile a list of two hundred sources and Im not sure it would be a wise use of time. I see good Laura Hale was recently kind enough to create a massive and well refernced table of sources, but the the
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I've actually read the
Graeber book (if you checked my editing history I added it as a reference to another article on 4th of July, several days before the Colonel added it) and it is indeed largely about the concept that both current and historical monetary systems are debt based.
1331:, but it isn't very clear. I think this article would be better as an examination of the idea of 'money as debt', in comparison to money as an instrument of exchange and replacement for barter; that's what the content is really about, so it just needs to be renamed to reflect that.
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The concept is not original. There is a significant school of thought that money developed from the concept of debt rather than from barter. Debt as a basis for monetary systems is therefore quite fundamental. I have expanded the article, providing a reference and more content.
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difficulty, its rare for the sources to actually use the term "debt-based monetary system". Again the
Graeber book would be a great starting place – he extensively cites previous scholarship on the links between money and debt, going back at least as far as Aristotle.
1135:- that's every single freaking monetary system in the world! If you remove the words "debt-based" the sentence still applies. Hell, it's even better and clearer. The "debt-based" part is the OR. With it, this is just a OR/POV fork of "Monetary system" plain and simple.
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Uh... no. Which economies exactly use bitcoin as their monetary system? None. And that's because it's not a "monetary system" but a payments system. Two different things. And let's stick to relevant and pertinent examples, please. This is already way off-topic as
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economic historians. Also its fairly well known by
Austrian school types and by investors and other actors in the financial sector. There's hundreds of RSs available that address this, so the article has the potential to join the Cross of Gold speech as an FA.
557:—I skimmed the book cited in this article, and read the section that seems relevant (the article doesn't help here, as the citation is to a full section in the book, instead of a particular page). I come away with the belief that this article is, indeed,
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fringe topic. But after the recent improvements by the Rescue squad and good Lawrencekhoo, demonstrating the topic is fact an area of research for leading academics and commentators, objections on OR and notability grounds are surely not sustainable?
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or some such. The "book" on money is that it originated as a store of value and a means of accounting in lieu of barter for transactions. The alternative argument here is that money also started in some instances as a mechanism for tallying debt.
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This was nominated for deletion in December 2007. While the result of that discussion was keep, this was premised on the article that actual references would be added and there'd be some evidence that this is anything but original research
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the two articles, which are about two different concepts, won't get mingled and mangled. Also, it will hopefully prevent some joker from "restoring previous stable version" - i.e. restoring the OR/SYNTH version from before this AfD.
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Claiming you *could* do something, but are not going bother doesn't exactly establish your credibility here. Also raving about 'deletionist hordes' (as opposed to folks who proudly claim to have never voted 'delete' in *any* AfD
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previous help saving a food bank article from destruction, but they wouldnt recognise the idea of owing someone 20 dollars) Mauss contrasts gift societies with debt based monetary systems, where money serves to quantify debt.
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of money. Whether the sourcing available is sufficient to sustain a piece is perhaps arguable, but I believe the general topic is encyclopedic. Perhaps needs a name change after close of the AfD, if kept, to something like
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I'm sorry but I find your comment to be simply a desperate attempt at saving a crappy article (why not create a new one?) by derailing the discussion with red herrings and irrelevancies. I can't take it in good
833:. So there you have some of the leading lights from the 2oth century for the three disciplines mentioned. Of course, the 3 sources already in the article would be a good place to start - if read attentively.
1201:. It may or may not be true that not all monetary systems are debt-based. But the above definition - the opening sentence of the article - is a definition of any monetary system (actually, more or less a
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You can view Laura's tables in the AfD I linked to above (you'd need to expand the hats). If you read the responses she got for her effort, you can probably see why Im reluctant to go to the same lengths
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Can you point me to these hundreds of RSs that address *this*? As in 'this particular concept' rather than a related one, like the relation between money and credit, which can be easily put into the
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The problem with both those sources is that neither is really about what this article is presumably about. In fact, what exactly is this article is supposed to be about? Look at the first sentence:
1133:"A debt-based monetary system is a monetary system where coins, tokens or paper money that represent claims on individuals or institutions are used as the primary form of money in an economy."
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far I still think this needs to be deleted and I agree with Livitup. Graeber is about a different idea (feel free to start an article on it), not this one. I'm still looking at Innes source.
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perfectly willing to change my mind, it's just that an assertion like that ("there's hundreds of RSs available...") without proof is completely meaningless. I could say that at every AfD.
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1108:. Also a source by Lord Sinclair which has the phrase "debt based monetary system" in the title. All told we have four RSs entirely or at least mostly about the topic in question.
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569:, but at the same time, it's not supported by the source offered, and as we've yet to find further sources in 5 years, I think it's time we pull the plug on this article.
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monetary systems being debt based both in the sense of money serving as a unit of account for debt, and in the "dual creation" sense. So Synth issues can be avoided.
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dispered among the different social sciences. You might want to add the following names to your searches to help you find some of the best ones. The sublime
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are used by numerous sources. The exact phrasing of the article's title does not seem significant because Knowledge is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary.
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If you want an article on credit based theories of money then start that article (perhaps by moving some of the text from this one). But delete this one.
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Just a wee note on sources added to the article. In addition to those discussed above, it has a book by Philip Coggan, a senior commentator for both the
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I have no idea what "Id normally like to point you at fruitful top tier locations as Id did when we talked a few years back" actually means.
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Unfortunately , similar definitional problems to the sort you've identified apply to several of the most basic concepts in economics.
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When you last challenged me after I summed up hundreds of sources, I was able to point you at specific locations like the FT and
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What kind of sources do you have in mind to support the notability of "Theory of the debt-based origin of money"? Do these exist?
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concerns for this topic. If it remains, it should be retooled to describe the phrase, as one used to criticize money economies. --
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suggests that's the term for it. I'm not sure how fruitful it would be to possibly move this article there. Note that
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the same paragraph, with nothing in between. See the problem? Two different stories/concepts are synthesized (read
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that the current article *is not* strictly that which went to AFD in 2007. That particular article is currently at
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Not all monetary systems are debt-based. For a specific example of a type of money which is not debt-based, see
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I would be fine with that. I do think that the proper way to do it is for someone to start a new article on
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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the same text can exist perfectly well in a different article, one that actually makes sense.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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56:. It can be moved there then built from ground up, if whomever takes the task up wishes. —
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Compare this to the featured article mentioned by the Colonel. Not one of 16 sources for
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is about a monetary topic. Perhaps inspection of the linked articles may be helpful.
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Seemed like a good idea at the time. I do not think I will use it in the future.
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I also have no idea what Polanyi, or gift economies have to do with any of this.
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or some such, but I now believe this to be a valid article about an alternative
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to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
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who Ive just been extensively citing on our Embedded Liberalism artticle.
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original research. It's not a known concept, it's not notable, it's OR.
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220:. In the five years since then, this hasn't happened, probably because
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Polyani says by far the dominant view was that they were tokens of
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Btw, if this is amenable to the objectors here, I can create the
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Articles for deletion/Debt-based monetary system (2nd nomination)
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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for Innes' papers with subsequent commentary and development.
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Uh can you say the same thing without that obnoxious template?
656:- I initially thought this was a POV fork in the making of
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Huh? (sorry I'm still scratching my head over that one)
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was one of the main inspirations for Graeber. And also
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Also, perhaps more importantly, you're confusing your
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1314:. This article should be renamed to something like
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list of Social science-related deletion discussions
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This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (
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155:Find sources:
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1327:rather than
1325:credit money
1311:
1295:FeydHuxtable
1278:contemporary
1277:
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1118:FeydHuxtable
1110:
1105:
1101:
1099:
1073:FeydHuxtable
1054:
1051:credit money
1050:
970:FeydHuxtable
850:discussion?)
835:FeydHuxtable
823:Marcel Mauss
819:Karl Polanyi
776:FeydHuxtable
770:
749:
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633:FeydHuxtable
603:FeydHuxtable
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825:who's book
771:Strong Keep
567:User:Warden
466:Anarchangel
436:Anarchangel
180:free images
58:Crisco 1492
1282:FT article
1255:John Hicks
1199:consequent
1195:antecedent
831:Keith Hart
754:today's FA
752:Note that
1416:talk page
1394:Volunteer
1376:Volunteer
1232:Volunteer
1208:Volunteer
1203:tautology
1182:Volunteer
1145:Volunteer
1010:Volunteer
870:Volunteer
800:Volunteer
730:Volunteer
691:Volunteer
619:Volunteer
453:Volunteer
408:DBigXray
319:• Gene93k
297:• Gene93k
245:Volunteer
227:Volunteer
37:talk page
1418:or in a
1333:Robofish
1226:WP:SYNTH
827:The Gift
509:Relisted
416:contribs
404:unsigned
141:View log
39:or in a
1160:bitcoin
750:Comment
672:Carrite
563:WP:SNTH
520:BusterD
491:Bearian
483:Comment
270:Snotbot
240:Support
186:WP refs
174:scholar
114:protect
109:history
1164:Warden
1059:Warden
867:faith.
758:Warden
712:Warden
555:Delete
542:Warden
364:WP:POV
360:Delete
261:step 3
158:Google
118:delete
1397:Marek
1379:Marek
1235:Marek
1211:Marek
1185:Marek
1148:Marek
1013:Marek
882:here.
873:Marek
803:Marek
733:Marek
694:Marek
658:money
622:Marek
588:What?
559:WP:OR
456:Marek
345:. --
248:Marek
230:Marek
222:it is
201:JSTOR
162:books
146:Stats
135:views
127:watch
123:links
16:<
1358:talk
1337:talk
1299:talk
1197:and
1168:talk
1122:talk
1104:and
1077:talk
1063:talk
974:talk
839:talk
780:talk
762:talk
716:talk
704:See
676:talk
654:Keep
637:talk
607:talk
546:talk
537:Keep
524:talk
495:talk
470:talk
440:talk
412:talk
389:talk
381:WP:N
351:talk
335:Note
323:talk
301:talk
194:FENS
168:news
131:logs
105:talk
101:edit
62:talk
50:keep
1354:BDD
1318:or
1179:is.
1053:or
965:Vox
814:AfD
572:Liv
385:BDD
347:KTC
280:»
267:.
208:TWL
143:•
139:– (
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204:·
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