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probably falsely assert (explicitly, or by infobox "architect=" assertion) that an associated person or firm is an architect, when in fact the named person or firm is a builder or engineer instead. Also many hundred falsely assert that a building was built in a given year, when in fact that was a year of other significance. And there are other problems in the one- or two-sentence NRHP articles. But your taking a stand against this architect article is misplaced. Removal of the article would impoverish 12 NRHP articles and 2 other articles that link here now. If the current architect article is removed, what then for the 14 linking articles? I suppose one could basically copy the entire current architect article into each one of those, to provide some context for the readers of those articles. Or construct a Navbox with information about the other buildings designed by the same architect. It seems best to let there be an architect article which answers the question of who the hell is "Helfensteller, Hirsch & Watson" and what else have they done, rather than forcing know-nothing ignorance into each of the 14 articles that are somewhat informed currently by the existing article. I can't promise, of course, that this particular architect article will get better developed by a local historian or librarian coming forward. But, odds are a lot better that we'll get to a decent article a year from now, if we have this one as a pretty good start. At the moment, it fully establishes that the firm is an architectural firm, rather than a building contractor or an engineering firm. And it provides convenient navigation. I think it is all right, more than all right, to leave this in an article, rather than to force duplicative copying of the information into 14 articles, in order to provide appropriate context in each of them separately.
433:- I have several concerns... 1) - there is the need for Secondary sources. The NRHP itself would be a PRIMARY source for the fact that an architect or firm designed buildings that are listed by the NRHP. We are not supposed to use primary sources to establish notability. What is needed is a secondary source (say an article in an architecture magazine, or a book on architectural history) that notes that the firm designed all these notable buildings. Do we have such a source? 2) - we need to be careful when it comes to claims that "the firm is mentioned in the NRHP documentation."... in many cases the mention is nothing more than a passing reference. The building may be listed for reasons that have nothing to do with the architect. For example, the building may be listed on the NRHP because of its association with a particular famous person (such as being the person's birth place). If this is the case, the fact that a particular architect or firm designed it is really nothing more than trivia... or at best, background information. Again, what is needed are some secondary source that note the connection between the building and the architect, and discuss it in some depth... enough to make it clear that the connection is considered
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historians. But more generally, what are architects notable for, if not for designing notable buildings? When there's an historic building, for whatever reason, the architects' name will of course be part of the article. People should be able to link from that to a description of their career. Perfectly natural encyclopedic question once you're reading about the building: what did they do before and after? The proper use of NOT INHERITED is that not all the works of a notable architect will be notable, except for the case of famous architects --most notable architects will have done some trivial work among the important projects=. I see I'm a minority opinion , but that is no reason not to give it, because a minority view sometimes gets adopted sooner or later. I continue to maintain the general proposition that criteria for notability should be categorical when such a criterion is applicable, so we do not have to debate the notability of each individual case. If it leads to a few articles on subjects of borderline notability , this harms the encyclopedia less than the time spent in the discussions, time spent quibbling when we ought to be writing about all the truly notable ones we do not yet have.
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Louis area historical society person, or a librarian, or someone out there with the right books and clippings files and access to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch's archives will add further to the article, if the article exists. If the article is "userfied", that won't happen. I don't want it; it doesn't belong to me. And, the deletion record, plus bureaucratic enforcement of a no-article status quo, would most likely confound and frustrate the good efforts of any St. Louis area new editor who actually wanted to try to start from scratch. Why not let the person start from a pretty good effort that provides nice links to 12 NRHP-listed works by the firm, plus links to
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presumption", assuming that we would start with the presumption that the architect was notable, but could override that with consensus, based upon arguments you suggest. However, I don't see any such arguments presented in this case, so not following the "delete" recommendation. Lack of references will ultimately doom this article, but I have no way of being sure that no such references will ever be found, this suggests userfication in this case, where it seems plausible that such documents may exist somewhere.--
644:'s argument. The architectural notability of a structure doesn't necessarily translate into notability for the architect. For example, properties might be listed under the "architecture" area of significance because they're surviving examples of a type or style that was once widespread; the architect's contribution might have been mere hackwork, of a sort done by scores of other architects at the time. Second, a passage in
1228:, including admonishment that some duplication of function is not a valid argument for deletion of one. And, in particular here, if the article were deleted, there would be no location where complete info on the architects is given, though one could navigate by category among the articles, each containing a redlink to the architect. It would beg for creation of a central architect article. --
535:. In this case, however, we're talking something different. Most or all of the Helfensteller, Hirsch & Watson buildings are on the NRHP for architectural criteria (for those unfamiliar, structures can be listed on the Register for one or more of multiple reasons, "architectural criteria" being one of them). That means that the architectural firm
234:. As the article documented already within its first 10 minutes of existence before the AFD nom, the firm designed not one or two, but 12 different notable buildings listed on the National Register, each notable enough for its own wikipedia article. With two references already. There should be a strong presumption that the firm will be notable. --
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about NRHP sites that were created as two-sentence one-reference stubs over a year ago, and that remain two-sentence one-reference stubs to this day. I'm not at all sanguine about the intervention of the hypothetical St. Louis historian, and I think we must proceed on the assumption that the article
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We may be closer than you think. I agree that the oldest surviving example of an architectural style may be notable, even thought the architect involved may not be, but I think that is an exception, rather than common. I tried to address that with "not ... an automatic, inflexible rule, but a general
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as working in this case. It is clear in the literal cases, that Person X being notable does not make the children of person X notable. Person X was notable for certain things, which usually have nothing to do with their children, parents, siblings, or casual friends. The situation is different with a
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per Orlady. What we need to do is research architectural history and see if this firm is notable within that context. The NRHP nominations for the properties, if available, can shed some light on whether the properties were nominated for their architecture or historic personages or events associated
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There is some general consensus above that the firm is in fact notable, that most agree that documents do exist that would satisfy everyone, although specific documentation has not yet been found to satisfy everyone yet. Then, tag it with "stub" or "expand" or "refimprove". It's likely that a St.
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Architectural firm. Article states that "a number of their works are listed in the US National
Register of Historic Places" which, I don't think, is enough to indicate notability by itself. I searched and found lots of articles where they are mentioned trivially as the architectural firm attached
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Ammodramus, thank you for caring. I hear your concern for the NRHP articles, several thousand of which I agree are pretty crummy. One way that many of them are crummy is that the writer had no clue what was the association of a listed person or firm. Several hundred existing
Knowledge articles
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First, in this particular case, I think the wide use of their standard designs is a suitable criterion to showe their notability. And the NHRP is a secondary source. It is prepared by historians on the basis of primary documents. They're as much secondary work as any other interpretative work by
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at some time in the future when
Doncram has obtained and read the National Register materials and writes up what he has learned about the firm. Until such time, its notability is not established and the page does not belong in article space. Due to the likelihood that the firm's notability can be
782:, we're told to gather sources and establish notability before we ever launch an article. Here, however, the plan seems to be: post an article based on a general presumption of notability, and trust that someone, sometime, will make the effort to demonstrate that the subject actually is notable.
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states, "Notability requires the presence of in-depth and significant treatment of a subject..." I assume that the editor who created the article wouldn't have done so had he/she not been strongly interested in the subject, and devoted considerable research time to it. The fact that all this
332:. Those projects and historical sites may (or may not) be notable on their own merits, but the fact that the project or site is notable, does not make the architectural firm that headed the project notable. If anyone can find one non-trivial mention in a reliable source that covers
374:- Perhaps I should clarify my comment about a "presumption". Because multiple works by this firm are listed on the National Register, I presume that this firm is sufficiently documented in the National Register documents that it will be established as
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be mentioned in lots and lots of secondary sources that can be used to establish its notability. But... we can not assume that this is the case. The article should stay in user space until some of those likely sources are actually found and added.
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Please note I have reformatted and rearranged the existing text in the article (no new text was added to the body). Notability has been established by the existence of peer reviews alone: non-notable architectural firms do not get any coverage.
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I'm not going to wiki-lawyer this to death, but I anticipated the notability arguments, but on reflection, I don't think I was clear enough in my nomination. Yes, the firm has worked on many famous and historically important projects. But
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notable building. It is often (but not invariably) notable because it is architecturally interesting. The architect or firm is the proximate cause of that notability, not merely related in some irrelevant fashion. Would we declare that
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I've added some more. Livitup, no offense, but your view would support putting a "stub" tag in the article (already present), calling for further expansion, and does not support removing the article from the wikipedia altogether.
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with them. Certainly the fact that so many of their buildings have been listed suggests there might be some notability there, but we need specifics beyond "X number of buildings listed on the
National Register of Historic Places".
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I'm afraid that to me, this argument sounds a lot like: "I'm sure that X is notable, although I can't be bothered to research it myself; but if we put an article out there, sooner or later somebody else will do the
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Creating articles for the architects, engineers, and builders associated with many NRHP sites is a way forward to improve the NRHP articles, which is what you want. FWIW, there are now 364 articles in
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and pass muster as a list. It's far better for the encyclopedia to have this article than that, or worse yet, to blow it all away. Sufficient collective achievement to merit encyclopedic history.
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until such time as the article creator can supply some substantive content about this architecture firm. As
Doncram states, the NRHP listings establish a presumption that the firm is notable per
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then I'll withdraw this AFD and go away. But "They worked on notable projects, so they are notable" is not a valid argument. I've said my piece and I'll crawl back into my wiki-hole now.
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is not? I'm not arguing for an automatic, inflexible rule, but a general presumption seems warranted. On the merits, I support Orlady's suggestion to userfy--
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This is why we need to userfy and not delete outright. I see this as being akin to the "restaurant" example at WP:NOTE... only in reverse.
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research didn't turn up a source attesting to the notability of the firm seems to create a fairly strong presumption of non-notability.
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I have no problem with userfy - as long as it doesn't get moved back into article space until the firm has independent coverage.
310:, but the current content about trivia like the misspellings of "Helfensteller" is insufficient for an encyclopedia article. --
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to a particular project, but no independent coverage of the firm as an individual entity. If this is deleted, the redirect at
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Second, I don't share my fellow editor's optimism about the future improvement of the article. Knowledge has an abundance of
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and the theatre article, and which already provides some good context. It could be better yes, and it eventually will be. --
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the firm (and do so in some depth - a passing mention on the NRHP database, or in a nomination document is not enough).
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will go unimproved for a long, long time after its posting. If we allow an article to go up that doesn't satisfy
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the very thing that makes these structures notable to begin with. That's a far cry from mere association.
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established in the future, I think it's acceptable to allow
Doncram to maintain the page in user space. --
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notable for their architecture, the architects should not inherit notability from the building.
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for an article in this specific case. An architectural firm that designed 12 historic buildings
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To
Purplebackpack89, there's a good discussion of how categories and lists are complementary at
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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and others. Clearly a notable architectural firm based on its accomplishments of record.
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today, it doesn't seem likely that someone will fix it in the reasonably near future.
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to be notable... I would even go so far as to say there is a consensus that it
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that can be established through reliable sources, then the situation changes.
1149:- Enough blue links of this firm's projects showing that it could be renamed
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to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
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My error... I got my notability guidelines mixed up... the example is at
940:"... I disagree. I think there is a general consensus that the firm is
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There is some general consensus above that the firm is in fact notable
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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437:. All this said... I absolutely agree that there is a strong
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Sorry, I'm not finding the restaurant example you mention at
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First, this seems to be going about things backward. In
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527:: I agree with SPhilbrick. Broadly paraphrasing the
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603:Knowledge:Notability (organizations and companies)
260:list of Architecture-related deletion discussions
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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1070:Missouri's contribution to American architecture
636:. First, I'm afraid that I can't agree with
587:; could you please steer us to it? Thanks.
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280:Note: This debate has been included in the
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936:Doncram... in a comment above you said "
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1298:, and I approve this message.
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1173:Thanks, a voice of reason. --
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498:is notable, but argue that
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1286:My name is
466:Daniel Case
325:Nom-Comment
162:free images
1201:Purpleback
1090:Thanks. --
950:"probably"
886:Ammodramus
668:SPhilbrick
651:Ammodramus
638:Sphilbrick
589:Ammodramus
506:SPhilbrick
61:rbitrarily
1313:talk page
563:primarily
439:potential
435:important
288:• Gene93k
266:• Gene93k
37:talk page
1315:or in a
1119:Relisted
986:probably
970:Blueboar
958:probably
946:probably
611:Blueboar
571:Blueboar
448:Blueboar
336:and not
334:the firm
129:View log
39:or in a
1288:Mercy11
1260:Carrite
1155:Carrite
1060:Comment
994:discuss
966:discuss
882:WP:NRVE
736:Comment
710:Yes! --
640:'s and
585:WP:NOTE
537:created
525:Comment
479:Comment
376:notable
372:Comment
168:WP refs
156:scholar
102:protect
97:history
1267:bd2412
1226:wp:CLT
942:likely
780:WP:YFA
769:work."
673:(Talk)
634:Delete
559:Unless
511:(Talk)
461:Userfy
443:should
431:Userfy
381:Orlady
312:Orlady
304:Userfy
140:Google
106:delete
1281:Keep.
1017:What?
698:talk
488:David
416:What?
359:What?
222:What?
183:JSTOR
144:books
123:views
115:watch
111:links
16:<
1292:talk
1258:per
1256:Keep
1215:≈≈≈≈
1206:pack
1159:talk
1147:Keep
1134:talk
1078:talk
974:talk
954:"is"
915:. --
890:talk
687:Keep
655:talk
615:talk
593:talk
575:talk
545:talk
470:talk
452:talk
385:talk
316:talk
308:WP:N
292:talk
270:talk
232:Keep
176:FENS
150:news
119:logs
93:talk
89:edit
50:keep
1236:ncr
1181:ncr
1098:ncr
1034:ncr
1001:Liv
988:to
960:to
923:ncr
751:ncr
718:ncr
693:DGG
400:Liv
343:Liv
242:ncr
206:Liv
190:TWL
127:– (
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186:·
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59:A
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