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The result was Speedy G7, the author blanked the page. -- lucasbfr 19:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Rape This Industrial World Vol.1 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested PROD, no assertion that this compilation album passes WP:MUSIC, zero references. Mister Senseless™ (Speak - Contributions) 03:04, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was No consensus. Discussions on whether the article should be merged or not can be taken up on its talk page. Stifle (talk) 11:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Lady Marina-Charlotte Windsor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This girl is entirely not notable. The British line of succession is notable, but not all people in it are. Her article is almost entirely composed of information that belongs in other articles and very little of it is unique to her. She goes to a boarding school and is interested in drama? Well, that's fun, but not encyclopedic. Charles 23:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following related page for the exact same reason, an overall lack of notability:

Lady Amelia Windsor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
  • Delete and turn into a redirect to her father, as nominator. Charles 23:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • If you want to redirect it, what's the point of deleting it first? In fact, you didn't even have to bring it here for discussion. The talk page would have been OK. 152.3.247.38 (talk) 11:57, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
      • Royal obsessives will keep on reverting a redirect even if there is truly no point for keeping an article. Charles 14:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
        • Yes, that was me. I must be a royal obsessive. StAnselm (talk) 22:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
        • And what is to stop another royalist from coming along next week, ignoring the deletion log, and recreating the article from scratch? I guess you could page-protect the redirect but then you have a request for unprotect every time the individuals are in the newspaper for anything, be it notable or trivial. If your goal is to stop "royal obsessives" it's not a battle worth fighting, and it will make you look like an obsessive deletionists. Not that there is anything wrong with being an obsessive deletionist. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 05:12, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep both. Haven't we been through all this before? 25th position in the line of succession is notable - it's not like she's 525th. StAnselm (talk) 00:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if we've been through it before, she is not notable. Where does it end? 26th? 27th? Really, this is ridiculous. Why is 25th notable? Please note that notability is not inherited and also that notable groups and lists can be composed of non-notable people. Association does not automatically create notability. Charles 00:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Probably until the line of succession goes far enough that the concensus is that the members are no longer notable. That sounds circular and tautological but it is true. there isn't (and shouldn't be) a hard line. People ARE notable for being royalty apart from any existential notability. You seem to be intent on deleting what you see as marginally notable royal figures, perhaps you might be happier just letting it slide? I don't mean that as an accusation or to suggest that you aren't acting in good faith. I just mean that you might be unhappy making the same justifications over and over for the 4-10th (or so) in line to a throne of some country. Protonk (talk) 01:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Let me be more clear. I don't think you should just give up because people like me are around to say things contrary to what you believe. I just hope to convey the fact that your argument can just as easily be extended to absurdity as my argument. Meaning that if I accept that nobility does not confer notability and that lineage does not confer notability then I can remove articles about people who could conceivably be next in line for the crown (of, say, england). Let's look at it this way. If no office in the government of the united states were inherently notable aside from the presidency, then you could make the argument that an otherwise non-notable commerce secretary should not get an article for just being the commerce secretary. At that point, I could suggest that this policy extends to the vice-presidency. Then we find ourselves asking how the presidency itself is notable because no office whose holder stands to succeed to it seems to be notable. In some sense, this is the same as drawing the line from 10th to 527th.Protonk (talk) 03:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Very well said Protonk I wish I had thought to explain it that way. By the way, in some administrations, the Vice President is about as non-notable a job as there is in Washington. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 05:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
WP:INTERESTING. So non-notable, vital details like a birthday have to be listed just because they exist? Charles 06:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
May or are? Charles 06:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
How? Charles 06:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge with their father/mother's articles. While I firmly believe all grandchildren of a monarch are notable, and children of British HRH's (i.e. children of Dukes of Kent & Gloucester and Prince Michael and Princess Alexandra), I don't believe their children are noteworthy enough. A good section of their parents with dates/places of birth and any other known info would be better.--UpDown (talk) 07:29, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge had long reason but, database locked. Basic reasoning is that a) notability isn't meant to be inherited b)not enough coverage of the subject as an "individual". Make part of parents article or part of a minor royals article. Jasynnash2 (talk) 08:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge per above. This is royalgeekery. "25th in line for succession is notable" ought to be their motto. Any job that's dependent on 24 persons dying suddenly isn't much of a job. Mandsford (talk) 14:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. I don't think you understand. This notability isn't based on a potential notability that may come through inheriting the throne. It's based on an inherent notability in being part of the royal family. StAnselm (talk) 00:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge both with George Windsor, Earl of St Andrews and redirect - while members of the British Royal family are inherently notable just for being who they are, these two are outside of the immediate public eye and have done nothing remarkable with their lives... yet. Other grandchildren of the Duke of Kent, such as the children of Lady Helen Taylor, do not have articles of their own so I don't see why these should be any different. -- Roleplayer (talk) 17:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. This isn't the same as the status of the spouse or child of a politician or other celebrity. Simply being in the line of succession is notable in itself, even though details about her are limited. Without an article, there will be redlinks in any discussion of the line of succession. --Eastmain (talk) 21:35, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Are you kidding? Red links can be removed, it's easy. In fact, I'll do it myself. What do you suggest about the other 1000+ people in line? Should I suggest you start writing articles on them all? Get on it then. The line of succession is notable, not everyone in it is. Charles 23:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • You need to calm down. Every afd on this subject has you belitting people who hold a different view on the subject. Please try to keep it on an even keep and respect the fact that some of us have different opinions about the notability of royalty than you.Protonk (talk) 02:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • You need to take grievances that aren't directed directly at this discussion to my talk page. I maintain and will continue to maintain that there are huge, huge issues with the idea that royalty always equals notability. The comment above by me illustrates that. If you haven't anything to offer directly to the subject of royalty don't post it unless it is on my page. Charles 03:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep for both: Reasonable places to draw the line are: Elizabeth II's descendants, who occupy the top 12 spots, her father's descendants, who occupy the top 18 spots, her grandfather's descendants, who occupy the top 55 spots, or her great-grandmother Queen Victoria's descendants, who occupy nearly the top 500 spots. 12 is a no-brainer, 18 will get very few arguments, 55 is debatable and considered only because this crown is so famous, 500 no way. Weak keep because article already exists and there is no compelling reason to delete this person, as her place in line for this very famous crown makes her marginally notable and that's enough. If this were a less-famous monarchy, such as maybe the one in Belgium or Saudi Arabia, I would draw the line higher, probably at either direct descendants of the reigning monarch or 10, whichever is longer, but no more than 20. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 04:39, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
If the only thing which implies her notability or even supports it is her position in the line of succession and all the rest is filler, would this not best be served as an entirely notable section within the context of her father rather than as a "marginally notable" (I wouldn't give it that) standalone article? Most things have much better impact and relevancy as sections in related articles than as perpetually short, awkward and non-notable stubs. Charles 04:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
If that were the case, and it very well might be, then this would have been a proposed merger or if non-controversial, a WP:BOLD merge, rather than an AfD. An AfD removes content and edit history, a normal merger does not. I doubt I would object to a merger if no encyclopedic content were lost along the way. As for non-encyclopedic content within an article, if you find any, feel free to remove it, that goes for all articles and it goes without saying. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 05:08, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I have always found that articles such as this that are merged, whether discussed or not, tend to be recreated in their previously existing form. Arguments are sometimes presented before but rarely after (if the merge is undone) I find Afd usually to be effective in reinforcing the point of a merger. It makes it clear that the article on its own is basically not viable. I am actually discussing such an article right now. Also, look forward to a reply from my talk page relatively soon on yours, I have just read it. Charles 05:14, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Look to history to find consensus. If you look through Line of succession to the British throne you will see things peter out in the 20s. Looking only at people born in 1989 or later, everyone has an article up to position 26. Position 29 does not. After that, things get spotty, with articles at position 56 then some for the direct descendants of King Olav V of Norway in the 60s. I stopped checking at that point. Articles for adults follow a similar trend, with occasional adults having articles even well down the line if they were somehow notable in their own right or by virtue of some other relative or some position or title of nobility they held. This tells us that so far, it's the consensus of Knowledge editors that the cut-off point for automatic nobility the British Crown line of succession is probably in the 20s, with some tolerance for articles for people lower down who can't stand on their own credentials. On the other hand, it could just be that editors are slowly working their way down the list and given time will have articles on all 1000+ entries. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 05:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment just as an aside, no there is actually a trend towards not having articles on these people: back in November for instance the article for Columbus Taylor (see history) was merged with his mother's article (she being his link to the line of succession). In the future though, as the Queen's grandchildren grow up and have children of their own, these more distant individuals will only get further from the line of succession and their position as people who have articles here will only get more tentative - it's not as if they are directly related to the monarch, which is what would give them automatic notability. -- Roleplayer (talk) 15:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm not sure why you keep focusing on some definitive cut-off position in the line of succession, especially since that position is, shall we say, quite subject to change (per below). --Dhartung | Talk 06:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm not. I'm saying that at any given point in time, for a given royal family, there will be some general consensus that people higher than X in line are clearly notable by virtue of birth, people lower than Y are clearly NOT notable MERELY by virtue of birth, but there will not be a consensus for people between X and Y. With the current British crown, X is somewhere at or below 9th place and Y is probably well above the 100th place. Between X and Y there is no consensus and we have contested AfDs. However, as you said, this will likely change over time. In 2028, even Y may be above 9th place. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 22:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect, as with Roleplayer, UpDown, and others above. Their position in the line means someone might type them in to search for them, but their lack of notability in themselves means their father is the perfect place to add the little information about them needed ~ which, i might add, is less than is currently in the articles: Who cares or needs to know what her favourite subject is? Cheers, Lindsay 08:39, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Redirect, the Chattos are redirects to their mother's article, and they're closer to the throne than these ladies are. Corvus cornixtalk 21:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Delete, per Charles. Notability derives from an accident of birth. What a shame for this young lady. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 23:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Redirect to Race. Consensus is clear that the current version of the article should be deleted, but the original redirect (in place until 16 April) has no apparent flaws, so back it goes. Discussion on a new target for that redirect would be welcome at the article's talk page here. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 22:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

The Race (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced article on non-notable event. Prod was removed by author without explanation. --Finngall 23:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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The result was keep. Nousernamesleft 02:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Fort Qualls (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

around 200 unique Google hits, nothing on Google News. Does not look to be independently notable. Guy (Help!) 22:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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The result was Delete; Does not meet notability guidelines for conlangs; author also requested deletion. OhNoitsJamie 14:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Tauro-Piscean language (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Completely unsourced; Google search yields no reliable sources. Probably a hoax, as "Old Taurusian," referenced in the intro, does not exist. OhNoitsJamie 21:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

delete unsourced, and appears to be made up. -- Flyguy649 22:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per Moonriddengirl's arguments. Does not meet WP:FICT, the notability guidelines for fictional constructs. —Quasirandom (talk) 17:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per Moonriddengirl. It is amazing that the article would go into so much detail about the language without making any case for its notability. If there are more references to prove that people have paid attention to this, there's not much time left to find them. EdJohnston (talk) 18:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Non-notable, made up and almost certainly WP:CB ukexpat (talk) 20:24, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Taurusian? Piscean? This bloke isn't even creative... +Hexagon1 00:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. It is not a hoax - Tauro-Piscean is a constructed language that really exists, I can testify for its existence. People, please, be careful calling something you don't believe or have never heard of "hoaxes", "utter bollocks" et.sim. It's better to ask the questions first before you start shooting. That said, I agree with Moonriddengirl's comments: the article is not clear about fact and fiction, the subject itself will probably not meet the criteria regarding notability, verifiability, original research, etc. But that's definitely NOT a reason to throw mud at people! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 09:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. I am the author of the page. It's not a hoax; it was just meant to be an informative article about a conlang that has gained some interest from others. I appreciate now that it does not meet guidelines, so delete it if you feel it is inappropriate. I also don't think this is the place to criticise the project itself and I think Hexagon is being extremely immature to question my creativity! It's not their project, so they don't even understand it. Please refrain from these types of comments. This page is about the inappropriate nature of the article, not the project. I have a page on FrathWiki anyway; I'd be quite happy to have it deleted. I just want to settle that it's not a hoax.--Pisceesumsprecan (talk) 10:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Yes, go ahead, the author says! --Pisceesumsprecan (talk) 14:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Nousernamesleft 02:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Trapwood Close (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
Gillars Green (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable housing estates. Both articles are unsourced and much of the content is unverifiable. --Snigbrook 21:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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The result was withdrawn by nom - TheProf - T / C 12:10, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Jason Clive Lloyd (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This player had no non-wiki hits on a Google search. , another user also removed him from the Bolton Wanderers article. i assume due to his lack of hits from a similler search. TheProf - T / C 21:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I see i voted weak keep on an earlier AfD. For the record, im now Delete! TheProf - T / C 21:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, i got a movie profile, but still no footballer. I'm going to have a look at the Bolton Wanderers website! TheProf - T / C 22:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
this mentions "goalkeeper Jason Lloyd". Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 22:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
A search of the main BWFC site finds nothing. I'm starting to wonder if the man in this article and the goalkeeper in the source are actually different people! This is why i wanted a wikibreak, lol. I must remember to not use wikipedia at all tomorrow! TheProf - T / C 22:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I see 2 wiki hits, 1 non-wiki hit and lots of hits for a famous cricket player ;-) TheProf - T / C 23:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
That's because his name contains the words 'Clive Lloyd', his father, who is much more notable. Regardless of number of google-hits, he IS notable as an international player! GiantSnowman (talk) 23:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I accept that theres an international goalkeeper called Jason Lloyd. My main concern now is the fact that this goalkeeper, Jason Clive Lloyd, doesnt show up on any major websites. And im now 100% certain after my search of the main BWFC website that this goalkeeper has never played (or had anything to do with) Bolton Wanderers FC. Could it be that this article needs to be deleted, and a new article about Jason Lloyd, the international goalkeeper, needs to be started? TheProf - T / C 23:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I also came across this non football related story , although i doubt this helps. Eddie6705 (talk) 00:35, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, again it only uses the name Jason Lloyd. If he passes this AfD, I'd like there to be a discussion on the main article talk page about whether or not he plays or has ever played for Bolton Wanderers. TheProf - T / C 11:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Note - I'd like to withdraw this AfD and have a discussion on the articles talk page about whether or not he has ever played for Bolton Wanderers FC. Thank you TheProf - T / C 15:50, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - due to the risk that this article is propagating wrong information. If he never played for Bolton, we should know that fact. If we don't know that fact, let's delete the article until we have some sources that we feel are reliable. If we don't even *know* whether he played for Bolton, why do we think we have any useful information to offer to the world? It's like having an article on a politician, and not knowing what country he was the president of. EdJohnston (talk) 18:17, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment - EdJohnston, you have completely missed the point. Whether or not he is a member of the Bolton Wanderers squad is, for now, a moot point; we are discussing here whether or not he is notable, and he is, because he is an international player. There's no need to "delete the article" at all! GiantSnowman (talk) 10:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy deleted per WP:CSD#G7 (author blanked the page). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The detentes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Band article seems to fail notability guidelines on music and certainly fails verifiability. In fact, this article contains sufficient misinformation to border on WP:HOAX territory, if it doesn’t actually cross over. Pay particular attention to the “quotes” section. Reference on Pitchfork media is unverifiable. All google hits to “The détentes” & “Talentless but motivated” currently go to bebo.com, as do all hits to their Christmas EP. Their Bebo site indicates they are self published. This was a borderline speedy, but did assert notability, however implausibly. I believe barring reliable sourcing this article should be deleted. Moonriddengirl 21:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment Sounds good to me. :) (Presuming, of course, that it doesn't return with new, but equally unverifiable/non-notable content.) However, since I'm the one who nominated it for AfD, I'll leave it for somebody else to process. --Moonriddengirl 21:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
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The result was keep. John254 23:53, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Egged bus 36 bombing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

A news event. Quite a big news event, but a news event. Not notable distinct form any other suicide bombing, and Wikinews is over yonder. Guy (Help!) 21:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Erm, Jasynnash2 you did see there appear to be refs from a book there as well? Thanks for googling though. The article does need some fleshing out. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes I saw that the one reference in the entire article (at the time of my comment)was to a book. My understanding is that just because something is in a book doesn't automatically make it notable. My merge suggestion still stands as I've been unable to find any other article about a single similar incident (Egged Bus bombings) my suggestion is to compose an article entitled specifically Egged Bus Bombings and incorporate this text. It would allow All the bombings to be covered instead of someone writing up what would amount to a huge number of stub articles on the individual bombings. Jasynnash2 (talk) 13:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Re I've been unable to find any other article about a single similar incident. For other similar articles, click on the category link at the bottom of the page. And for alternate parent categories, look at the link I've provided below. Andyvphil (talk) 23:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Delete. Zsinj 07:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

DJ DNA (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Fails notability. Google searches reach only first-party MySpace and website Schmloof (talk) 21:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Philippe 23:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Yemane Gebre Loul (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

WP:BLP1E. Prisoner of the Month of the International Society for Human Rights, and that's it. Knowledge is not Amnesty International. Guy (Help!) 21:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Support the deletion Delete. Very weak source for an unknown event, not enough footnotes.  A M M A R  21:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Notable for one thing only, and not a happy thing. Unless the issue of this man's imprisonment is covered much more widely, WP:BLP1E applies. This is not to say that the imprisonment could not be covered in a different article. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 22:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep. Very hard for natural humanitarian reasons - which we must as far as possible ignore, neither leaning towards keep or delete. First principles state that there should be significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Well OK:
- there is this this ], which says it is taken from ], which says that its source is "compass" - no further detail given but it was quite easy to find and is here ] So, that is one source.
- There is a passing reference here ] - no source given, but could be independent, and Christian Monitor seem pretty authoriative.
- This ] seems to be a news round-up, so not original to the website.
- This ref ] - is interesting, not in english - but includes a photo and source: ].
Is the coverage significant? Not very, but yes. So, apologies for essay: IMO, dicounting for my own admitted bias, it just meets WP:N criteria. Springnuts (talk) 23:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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The result was keep. Wizardman 19:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Sound of fingernails scraping chalkboard (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I really fail to see why this sound is notable. Yes, it may have received the focus of a few studies. But that doesn't mean that it should have its own article. Perhaps (and only perhaps) there could be an article about annoying sounds - it could perhaps even just be merged into the psychoacoustics article which already links to this article in its "see also" section. Also, the page only has three actual articles pointing to it, none of which really have anything important to do with this. I think it unlikely to be important to link here from other Knowledge article, and there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that anybody is ever going to search for this article without already knowing that it exists. In short, delete, or possibly merge into the psychoacoustics article. -Lilac Soul 21:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Benefit of doubt, keep. (If only for its novelty value.) —Nightstallion 21:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Regarding searching, this article is the 8th result on Google for "fingernails scraping chalkboard" and the 3rd result for "fingernails scraping blackboard". We must remember that many people use the search interface, be it Google, Yahoo!, MSN, or AOL to find everything, and Knowledge ranks highly on many, many searches nowadays. We don't need to imagine people searching for the full name of an article (if anyone has any ideas for improving it, though, speak up). --Dhartung | Talk 04:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


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The result was Speedy close. The last AfD on this topic closed today with a result of no consensus. No need to open a new discussion so soon; please try making suggestions on the talk page instead. Non-admin closure. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 21:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

List of companies of Pakistan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Knowledge is not a catolog of non-notable companies. This list is a warrant for any company to list itself. During the last Afd the "keep" side maintained it was useful for business. I will contact the relevant parties involved in the last Afd and hope to gain concensus for a rename with clearly defined notions of Notability to List of major Pakistani companies -- BpEps - t@lk 20:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC) BpEps - t@lk 20:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was Result was speedy deletion per WP:CSD A7. Chunky Rice (talk) 21:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Rapid Fiction (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Band of dubious notability. No listing at Allmusic. No evidence of any released albums or tours. Only source coming close to WP:RS is a NME blurb on a New Bands page (which was copy-and-pasted word for word in a previous edit, leaving the stub as it is now). Google search returned their own sites, Knowledge, a blog or two, forums, and club sites listing who was playing there on a particular night. Not enough significant coverage to satisfy WP:MUSIC. DarkAudit (talk) 20:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Veinor 04:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Hau Thai-Tang (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Sources are primarily about the car, not the man (WP:BLP1C?). No non-trivial biographical coverage in reliable independent sources. My usual disquiet aout marginally notable biographies applies, really. Guy (Help!) 20:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. I'm open to userfying it if someone wishes to pull out any reasonable information... but you're going to have to type the WHOLE title on my talk page to get me to do it. :-) - Philippe 23:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The effectiveness of neurofeedback as a treatment for Attention Deficit / Hyperactivity Disorder : An annotated bibliography (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Essay containing personal opinion and book reviews: fails Original research; Synthesis of published material Ros0709 (talk) 20:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


  • Keep. At least three of the references are unambiguously reliable sources: Newsweek, The Times (London), The Independent, and some of the books and journal articles are as well. The article may need trimming and NPOV work, but I think the article contains some encyclopedic information worth saving. --Eastmain (talk) 23:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • merge as a never-to-be-put-in-the-search-bar addition to neurofeedback. A summary of this probably already exists there anyway. We shouldn't have another article promulgating a fringe theory, when there's one already. Merkin's mum 23:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete; the subject of the article is a bibliography. The references that Eastmain notes aren't on the subject of the article, so aren't relevant. Very few bibliographies are interesting enough in and of themselves to be worthy of an article, and I see absolutely no evidence this is one of them.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

comment- I'm suspecting this is written by the same bloke who wrote Knowledge:Articles_for_deletion/Divorce_and_Children:_An_Annotated_Bibliography , due to the similar unusual choice for titles, although the usernames are not the same. Merkin's mum 23:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I also suspect these notes are for his own personal use, rather than anyone elses, as his versions of the article include "The clinical trials addressed in this work would provide excellent information for the body of my essay." and similar notes. Merkin's mum 23:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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The result was delete. - Philippe 23:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

MD4Bush Incident (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

With 175 unique Google hits, I'd say the fifteen minutes of transient notoriety are over. Guy (Help!) 20:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep Notability isn't temporary and WP:GOOGLEHITS. there are multiple sources covering the controversy including a news magazine of national scope (though I personally don't like it, that isn't important). Also, the article could use serious help in cleaning up POV or apparent POV issues and in giving a better run-down of the incident and connections to other like incidents. There is a good deal of general scholarly research on the changing boundaries of privacy and how public officials are reacting to that--this is one example. Protonk (talk) 23:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Yes, Wikinews could certainly write a good article on this. But encyclopaedic (as in non-transient notability, rather than transient notoriety) does not seem to be established, and living individuals are involved. Knowledge is not a tabloid aggregator, after all. Guy (Help!) 18:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • But these aren't tabloids. I understand that wikipedia isn't a newspaper, but it isn't fair to extend that to mean that events covered in newspapers can't be documented here. I'll admit the article is not that well written and reads more like a timeline (heck, it IS a timeline) than anything else. the tone isn't right. But that doesn't mean that the source material doesn't support a more encyclopedic look. The second washington post article makes motions in the right direction, talking about this as a new front in the political smear world. There was a special counsel retained, subpoenas were sent out and news coverage continued months after the intial break (see second wp article). Protonk (talk) 14:28, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Well, naturally the media was going to do a few follow-ups; that's their job when it comes to big or middling scandals. But it was still largely a short burst, short enough to render it trivial. Biruitorul (talk) 21:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


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The result was Delete. Stifle (talk) 11:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Objective Modula-2 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

An article consisting entirely of unverified information (not a single ref, no relevant informative Google hits) highly suspect of being original research. In addition, Google search results indicates non-notability. Article not substantially modified since 2005, and seems to describe an unfinished dead project. More details on article talk page. -- int19h (talk) 20:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

-- Fabrictramp (talk) 00:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete per int19h. This appears to be a dead project that was never implemented. It's usually a bad sign when the Knowledge article on something is its first Google hit. That suggests there is no mainstream recognition of the topic. EdJohnston (talk) 18:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Not currently notable; looks like description of vaporware to me too. Plvekamp (talk) 06:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Delete. Stifle (talk) 11:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Old Pueblo Firefighters Association (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable labor union. ¿SFGiДnts! 19:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Delete for reasons given. --Daysleeper47 (talk) 20:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Having twelve toes is unusual, that doesn't mean that everyone with twelve toes is notable. In this case the sourcing required for a topic to meet the primary notability criteria or the specific criteria for organisations has not been shown to exist. Guest9999 (talk) 00:06, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
You are correct in some degree, however I believe there are more people with 12 toes in the US, than there are For Hire Fire Dep't business' and their (non-IAFF) Labour Unions. It is that rareness that does make this, and its related Articles, encyclopedic to document. The only Policy that must be satisfied is WP:V, and that has been done. There is no hurry to satisfy the other Guidelines that you quote. Exit2DOS2000 03:36, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Singularity 02:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

High school dropouts: an annotated bibliography (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete. This is an apparent essay, written in violation of our OR/synth policies. Knowledge is does not publish original thought in this manner. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 19:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

  • This new trend of articles is troubling, from an encyclopediac standpoint, so I wanted to ensure a wider review than just having it slink off into deletion a few weeks out. The five AFDs currently up will be a good barometer on this new trend. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 20:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • These are very odd; they've all been created by SPAs (one for each). Not enough for ], most likely, but I suspect they are all the same editor due to the identical style. In other words I wouldn't call it a "trend" but possible evidence of POV-pushing. --Dhartung | Talk 20:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Maybe all from the same class? It is getting towards the end of the college semester, so final papers and such might be due soon. --Bfigura 21:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Repeat offender? How so?Professor marginalia (talk) 03:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Multiple offender. WillOakland (talk)
I'm curious then why there is no evidence of this whatsoever on the user's talk page. What makes the user a multiple offender? Professor marginalia (talk) 14:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I read that to mean that multiple elements of WP:NOT applied, not that the article creator had previously 'offended'. Ros0709 (talk) 15:36, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, that makes more sense. Knowledge's been welcoming of editors introduced through course work-in this case they don't quite have the concept of "encyclopedia article" clear yet.Professor marginalia (talk) 14:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


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The result was delete. Singularity 02:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Environmental Impact on Human Health: An Annotated Bibliography (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This is an apparent essay, written in violation of our OR/synth policies. Knowledge is does not publish original thought in this manner. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 19:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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The result was delete. Singularity 02:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Divorce and Children: An Annotated Bibliography (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This is an apparent essay, written in violation of our OR/synth policies. Knowledge is does not publish original thought in this manner. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 19:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I looked further and it is definitely him IMHO. It includes similar use of wikipedia to keep his personal notes, such as in his versions of the article, "The work cites various other Univeristy Sponsored studies and is very useful for my to my topic of effects of divorce on children." The other article in his versions says "The clinical trials addressed in this work would provide excellent information for the body of my essay."Merkin's mum 23:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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The result was Delete. Stifle (talk) 11:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Fusker XP (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No evidence of notability given or even asserted; quick google doesn't show up much either. Veinor 19:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep per unanimity of responses, Heymann Standard (non-admin closure). Skomorokh 02:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Frank Rumbauskas (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article is about an author who is relatively unheard of. It seems to be of a self-congratulating, self-promoting nature that is unfit for Knowledge. I also consider it neither useful nor encyclopedic for the average person. Not a notable figure by any means. TomKite420 (talk) 19:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC) — TomKite420 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. --Eastmain (talk) 23:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Stifle (talk) 11:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Gets Eaten Alive! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested PROD. Fails WP:MUSIC - non-notable album. ukexpat (talk) 18:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete under CSD criterion A7. Can't see this team existing based on multiple searches, and even if it does exists, it's not notable enough for an article. Rudget 18:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

KK Angeli (Skopje) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Appears to be a WP:HOAX. No proof that this team even exists. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 18:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. another one.. - Philippe 23:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Taxation of Carried Interest: An Annotated Bibliography (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced essay containing personal opinion and book reviews; entirely original research. An anonymous IP removed the tags and PROD placed on the article without explanation. Ros0709 (talk) 17:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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The result was speedy delete under CSD criterion A7. Not-notable enough for a page, not sourced, probable hoax. Rudget 18:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Emran Topolec (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Does not meet WP:NOTE or WP:V. Google cannot provide any references and only shows a couple of non wiki mirror hits. Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 16:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Rjd0060 (talk) 18:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Jeff T. Kane (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This author appears to fail WP:N - minimal Google results don't include anything resembling decent reliable sources, and claims of publishing appear to be mostly on small, non-notable sites. One book sold through Amazon, published on Lulu.com. I don't see anything that affirms any notability here. Delete Tony Fox (arf!) 16:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC) Tony Fox (arf!) 16:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete - He fails note. No google news hit for any date, minimal google hits. He looks to be in the same realm of aspiring authors as thousands upon thousands. lulu is self-publishing, so this wouldn't prove any notability. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 17:26, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Self publisher, fails WP:N. Dusti 19:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom - non notable Dreamspy (talk) 20:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete. Lulu is a notorious vanity press that confers notability on nobody. StorySouth is a notorious online-only "journal" that confers notability on nobody. He completely fails WP:BK. Also, this guy is constantly removing tags from his article--a very aggressive vanity-press vandal who's already been blocked but continues to vandalize articles through his ISP. Get rid of this thing and salt it if it's recreated. Qworty (talk) 18:01, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. He does not have anything available on Lulu at the moment and has been published otherwise by many other non-vanity presses. His stories have appeared in print and online in many journals and Ruthie's Club is a notable paying erotica site. He also was a finalist in Story South's notable online stories of 2004. I'm not sure how that doesn't satisfy a third party source since it was neither a site that published him or had anything to do with him personally. He also just had a story appear in the new issue of Demon Minds which is a paying horror magazine. Whether or not the author has vadalized the site should have nothing to do with their notability as an author or the article about them. --24.185.244.21 (talk) 22:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Has he been written up in other reliable sources? A couple of sales does not confer notability. Tony Fox (arf!) 02:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


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The result was No consensus. I would have relisted this but it's already had one relisting, no need for another. Stifle (talk) 11:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Consolation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Does this band meet WP:MUSIC? Apart from split releases and EPs, they have had two full-length albums on the indy label Displeased Records. Now is this an "important" indy label? It's somewhat borderline, so I think it warrants a larger discussion. Neither the band article nor the album articles give hints to substantial independent coverage, so at this time I would say they fail WP:N. Article tagged with {{notability}} since May 2007. B. Wolterding (talk) 12:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I am nominating the corresponding album articles too:

--B. Wolterding (talk) 12:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep in the context of Dutch Metal, I believe the record label to be a notable one, so I believe they pass WP:MUSIC. However, the individual albums don't, so merge them into the main article.  Esradekan Gibb  14:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp (talk) 23:28, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak delete I couldn't find multiple non-trivial mention in independent and reliable sources online. That rules out criteria 1 of WP:MUSIC. Members of the band have gone on to form other groups but none of those other groups have an article on wikipedia and presumably are not notable then. So that rules out criteria 6. They have released two albums on Displeased Records, an independent record label whose importance does seem quite borderline as indicated by the nominator. While the label does have a history of more than a few years, their roster of performers does not seem to include "many" other notable artists per criteria 5, hence this weak delete vote. --Bardin (talk) 06:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, - Philippe 04:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Delete. Stifle (talk) 11:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Matt Chait (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

autobiographical article/ musician does not appear to pass WP:Music Frog47 (talk) 16:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I dont see why this page should be deleted. The artist listed has performed on albums which are on wikipedia and have significant cultural importance. All references are shown a properly linked. The article is completely accurate and up to date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattchait (talk • contribs) 19:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy delete, per WP:CSD A7. -Chunky Rice (talk) 18:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Hanbridge Audio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Spam, article creator removed speedy tag. Frog47 (talk) 15:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Punkmorten (talk) 10:17, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Millenia Malls (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No sources, no relevant Google hits, unverifiable. Fails WP:CORP. No malls operated yet, so WP:CRYSTAL may apply as well. Was prodded, prod removed by anon without improvement. Huon (talk) 08:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus to delete; default to KEEP. - Philippe 23:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Nashville Homeless Power Project (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete. Fails WP:ORG criteria of eligibility for non-commercial organizations, which reads:

Organizations are usually notable if the scope of activities are national or international in scale. Endless Dan 15:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep per user Celarnor. The sources are now there to indicate that the organisation is mentioned widely. Therefore, verifiable through reliable sources which indicate notability regardless of entity, and I can't see why WP:ORG should be allowed to muddy this primary fulfilled requirement. Whether it's person, group, subject or organisation, if the references are valid and complete per WP:VERIFY, and notability is confirmed through that process, no prejudication on grounds of the article's subject matter should over-ride the basic qualification necessary in all WP articles. Ref (do) 19:35, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Non-notable political advocacy organization specific to Nashville, Tennessee. Fails WP:ORG. KleenupKrew (talk) 09:47, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is a very notable organization that has had numerous articles written about it. Note that the ORG criteria also states: "Organizations whose activities are local in scope are usually not notable unless verifiable information from reliable independent sources can be found. The organization’s longevity, size of membership, or major achievements, or other factors specific to the organization may be considered." There are currently two reliable independent sources cited in the article (one being the International Herald Tribune), and I'm sure if you give it time more will be added. Kaldari (talk) 18:53, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


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The result was Delete. If anyone wants the content for a transwiki, drop me a note. Stifle (talk) 11:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Takat (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Rules-only description of a game of dubious notability. Knowledge is not a game guide, and not having won an award isn't enough to meet WP:N. The only references are an entry in an inclusive directory, and a link to an online play site that should be removed per WP:EL. Percy Snoodle (talk) 12:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was Keep (non-admin closure) The consensus is that sources exist that prove the notability of the article subject. Darkspots (talk) 23:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Helene Rask (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I suspect that recent edits to this article are mainly the work of a disgruntled Wiki contributor whose ramblings are now hosted elsewhere, but can still be reached using a link on the Helene Rask page. Guess which one. Also 'Rask Models, Norway's most popular model agency' is blatant advertising - not to mention hyperbole. Damansky (talk) 14:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC) Moved from article talk page. ➨ REDVEЯS knows it's gonna happen someday 21:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Stifle (talk) 11:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The Kimbula Project (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The subject of the article is a 2 week old forum that fails the basics of WP:N and WP:V as well as Knowledge:Knowledge is not for things made up one day as the article explicitly states The concept for the forum was born approximately in 4 minutes. SWik78 (talk) 15:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment - Do Not Delete - I do apologise for deleting off the tags at first i did not pay much attention to it and didnt know what they were i am new here.And the second set of tags were probably deleted by one of the other users also had no idea what they were inititally. (It just says spam and some code how would we know that it is a deletion tag)I am in no way associated to the site but it has created some what of a revolution in the Sri Lankan community that i thought ill put it up. I have never done a wikipedia article b4 hence it probably came across as advertising when i did read the deletion tags properly thats when i asked a couple of people i know to sign up and help me clean it up. Hence the subsequent signing ups. A lot of Sri Lankans are interested in knowing what exactly this site is. And what better place to educate some one than wikipedia again i apologise if i did violate any terms,i do know we are a small country but we are on the map and innovative acts such as this to better a community should be mentioned as it means quite a bit to a community that has been over shadowed by a war for 20 years.As for the statement - The concept for the forum was born approximately in 4 minutes is not my doing it is the site authors and it is sheer genius in most peoples minds.I do not know how anyone can judge the quality of a concept whether it takes 4 years or 4 seconds.

Knowledge is not for things that you or your friends made up. If you have invented something novel in school, your garage, or the pub, but it has not yet become well known to the rest of the world, please do not write about it in Knowledge. Write about it on your own website instead.

I stress again i did not make this website and this is not a thing made up in a garage it is one persons attempt to give common ground for a community made up of different levels and ethnic groups.A place where people can freely express discuss and learn without anger hate or violence. My intention was not to promote the site at all but to let people know what it was about.As it sure has the right idea worth mentioning.

P.S - If you do a search on google/yahoo/live for the word "Kimbula" you will come across the Sunday Times Article on the website.--Acephalia (talk) 20:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy Delete per author’s request (CSD#G7) after merging into AT-43. —Travis 03:53, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

U.N.A. (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I don't see how this is notable, if it is notable, then my bad. but It don't seem notable. – ThatWikiGuy (talk | life) 14:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

  • (full disclosure: I'm the article's author) I'd say this entry is notable as it expands on the information found in the AT-43 entry. AT-43 is an emerging tabletop wargame that is quite rapidly growing in popularity in the United States (shipping issued delayed a more widespread release back in 06/07). Much like the entry for Warhammer 40k, a similar tabletop game, it's nice to have the details and backstories of the diverse groups listed here on wikipedia. That way, novice players or the curious may be able to find more information about the game and its factions. I see how something that is new could be seen as something that is not notable, but I think it's better to be proactive information-wise, than reactive. Thanks, --Btg23 (talk) 14:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Well it needs to be merged first, so... – ThatWikiGuy (talk | life) 13:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Dur, thanks. *g* I went ahead and merged the Therians article into that as well. It wasn't marked for deletion, but it served the same function as the U.N.A. page. I think the main AT-43 article really benefited from this. Thanks everyone! Should I just edit the two pages and take everything out? Or is there a special delete command?--Btg23 (talk) 14:40, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
You can place {{db-g7}} on the page and it will be deleted in a few minutes. – ThatWikiGuy (talk | life) 14:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Cheers. Thanks again, everyone! --Btg23 (talk) 02:31, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
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The result was No consensus. Stifle (talk) 11:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

List of Miami Rappers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

non-notable as a list, work as a category. Frog47 (talk) 13:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Strong keep per WP:CLN. Nominator may want to review guidelines regarding redundancy of lists and categories: "These methods should not be considered to be in conflict with each other. Rather, they are synergistic, each one complementing the others. For example, since editors differ in style, some favor building lists while others favor building categories, allowing links to be gathered in two different ways, with lists often leapfrogging categories, and vice versa. This approach has resulted in two main link-based systems of navigating Knowledge. See the navigation menu at the top of Knowledge:Contents, and see Category:Categories. Many users prefer to browse Knowledge through its lists, while others prefer to navigate by category; and lists are more obvious to beginners, who may not discover the category system right away. Therefore, the "category camp" should not delete or dismantle Knowledge's lists, and the "list camp" shouldn't tear down Knowledge's category system - doing so wastes valuable resources. Instead, each should be used to update the other." There are lots of things lists can do that categories can't in terms of presenting information; if the current version of the article doesn't present anything the category doesn't, that can be changed by the regular editing process and thus isn't a good rationale for deletion; ultimately, there's no reason to delete. Celarnor 21:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
What makes it unmaintainable? It's a fairly simple matter to add an entry into a list when a given musician from this location becomes notable. If it's unmaintainable, then the same could be said about its category bretheren, which should also be put under the same scrutiny. Celarnor 02:23, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Quite the contrary, the category is perfect for this, it can be added to any new rapper article and combines them effortlessly. This list will be forgotten and remain in the poor state it is now. Just to prove my point, the article is currently orphaned, except for things related to this AfD and userspace discussions. +Hexagon1 03:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
And the name of any rapper can be added to the list. I don't see how it's more difficult; it's like, two more clicks. The added benefits that lists have over categories for human readability far outweigh those few extra clicks. Again, it should be noted that categories and lists aren't to be considered in conflict with one another, rather that they should be used to keep their accompaniant well-maintained and up to date. Celarnor 03:40, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
But no one is going to make those two clicks... hence seriously in the original comment. +Hexagon1 08:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
What makes you think they'll make the one click to add it to a category? Seriously, this is essentially a NOEFFORT argument. Celarnor 09:08, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Well it was just my addendum to the nominator's comments. I still consider them valid. But point taken, my bad. +Hexagon1 12:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy delete G4 (recreation of previously deleted material) by Discospinster. Nonadmin close. Xymmax (talk) 18:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

No sources or references, no evidence this even exists or is being made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samrulez91 (talk • contribs) 2008/04/16 23:27:46

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The result was keep. Punkmorten (talk) 19:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Wimbledon, New Zealand (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This appears to be complete nonsense. Fences and windows (talk) 02:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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The result was No consensus to delete, defaults to keep. Stifle (talk) 11:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Vereniging Basisinkomen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Request for deletion. This organisation is not notable, promoted by one of the references Guido den Broeder, and deleted on the Dutch wikipedia as well. Migdejong (talk) 12:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

There was no article on this topic in nl:Knowledge.
Since I have a declared COI, I will not take part in this procedure, except to answer questions. Guido den Broeder (talk) 13:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Comment - I believe COI means you can't edit the main page, it doesn't mean you don't get an opinion on the AFD discussion or talk page. If you can provide unquestionable proof the page passes WP:CORP, then the AFD discussion can end immediately. WLU (talk) 14:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Note The Dutch WP consensus has no meaning here; we're a seperate project, the same as our decisions have no value on their side. The article is heavily sourced apparently to multiple sources. How is it not notable? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 13:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I am undecided atm. It depends on the coverage by VPRO's De Ochtenden, who apparently went to one of their conferences. If they covered the organisation, it would go a long way towards establishing the notability of this organisation. But if they covered the topic of a guaranteed minimum income, they at best mentioned the organisation in passing, which wouldn't establish notability. Aecis 13:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Honoustly I have to agree with Aecis here. Migdejong (talk) 14:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. I was asked by Guido to comment on my talk page. Based on my analysis of the sources found in this version there is insufficient evidence that the page is notable per WP:CORP. My analysis of the 19 sources found on that version of the page can be found here. Even should more sources be added, there is a significant problem of coatracking which should be dealt with if the page is not deleted. WLU (talk) 14:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC) User has archived my comments on his analysis. Guido den Broeder (talk) 23:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep- based on the recognition by a Dutch political party (from page 195-6 of this document, translated via babelfish 'cause I can't read dutch) I think there's enough to establish notability. The page is still a coatrack and content fork in my opinion, but at least a notable one. Undecided I hate to chage my mind, but based on a bit more context around the new sources, I don't feel comfortable with keep. What a mess. I've re-written the page by the way, so now it is (in my mind) solely about VBI and no longer a coatrack or POV fork. WLU (talk) 12:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Without wanting to comment on this coverage, calling the Natuurwetpartij a political party is a bit of a stretch. It's a movement that is was active in politics, but it has never managed to exceed the realm of fringe parties. In the 1998 elections, where they mentioned Vereniging Basisinkomen, the party got 0.00183% of the votes. They haven't taken part in any other elections. Even calling this party an also-ran would be an exaggeration. Aecis 14:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. It never fails to disturb me as to what will get deleted here under accusations of being non-notable. This has included, among other things, title-winning athletes, just because they won a now defunct title decades earlier and none of the editors voting had heard of them. Undecided is, fortunately, a significant improvement over that flavor of VfD. If it might not be important enough, then don't include it with the Knowledge 1.0 DVD. Just tag the article and note that it's needing review by a disinterested party with fluency in Nederlands for possible bias and changed accordingly -- presumably that's a job for Wikiproject Netherlands. -- Strangelv (talk) 15:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - this page seems to be a point of conflict and seems there is some possible WP:COI involved here. The four book references seems notable although perhaps only three are independent of the source. I would encourage anyone to check for themselves in books and scholar. Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL. SunCreator (talk) 15:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
My analysis included the four book sources, but in my opinion the coverage of VB in each one was trivial (one sentence in two, perhaps two sentences in the German, and only a mention in the acknowledgements in the fourth). I think that WP:CORP supports the notability being established by sources having a thorough discussion but no-one ever agrees with me :( WLU (talk) 16:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
You are partly right as each of the pages shown on g-books is not significant itself, if there was only one such reference then it could be dismissed. Here however we have three or perhaps four independent book sources. In WP:CORP#Primary_criterion it deals with this by saying If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources should be cited to establish notability. I suggest multiple independent book sources are enough in this case. SunCreator (talk) 16:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Seems also another independent source has been discovered, I saw the link on the articles talk page. SunCreator (talk) 17:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Comment Afd is about whether the topic is suitable for a wiki article. Discussion about the existing article can be discussed on the articles talk page. SunCreator (talk) 11:17, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Sufficient sources. If the article has shortcomings, COI or otherwise, fix them, but don't throw out the child with the bathwater. --Yooden ☮ 04:34, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. This reminds me a lot of Knowledge:Articles for deletion/ME/CVS Vereniging (see also Knowledge:Deletion review/Log/2007 November 5), another article created by Guido den Broeder about a Vereniging he was closely related with (the article can now be seen at User talk:Guido den Broeder/ME/CVS Vereniging. That one as well had at first glance a lot of sources, but in the end it turned out that none of them were reliable, independent, and indepth. In this case, the sources are either self published or about the Basisinkomen, but not at any length about the Vereniging Basisinkomen (the proceedings of a symposium, in German, are the most extensive so far). An article on an organization of dubious notability, created by their treasurer, who has had already an article deleted for exactly the same reasons and is well aware of the COI guideline... not much reason to keep this one around. Fram (talk) 06:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC) The organization was not created by their current treasurer. Guido den Broeder (talk) 07:38, 18 April 2008 (UTC)</small made clearer Fram (talk) 07:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Comment Afd is about whether the topic is suitable for a wiki article. Discussion about the existing article can be discussed on the articles talk page. SunCreator (talk) 11:17, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, and the topic is, judging by the sources in the article (and the talk page) and the sources found on the internet, not suitable for Knowledge. Fram (talk) 12:40, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I respect your opinion. SunCreator (talk) 13:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Note I have added some additional material to the talk page of the article (from the google search). This includes a prize nomination by Belgian political party Vivant to a long-time chairperson in recognition of all the work that she and the vereniging have done. Guido den Broeder (talk) 10:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
For context, prize nomination was for an honorary member of VBI, and she didn't win. I'm not sure how much discussion there was of the person versus the organization. And the political party providing the recognition above was only active in a single election, receiving apparently 0.002% of the vote. WLU (talk) 19:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
"(With this nomination) Vivant also recognizes the efforts and openness of the Vereniging Basisinkomen in the strive for larger support for the introduction of a basic income." Guido den Broeder (talk) 19:24, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
It still is only a nomination for an insignificant or barely significant award. Aecis 20:29, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - confronted with the issue of notability Guido came up with a list of 'Lidorganisaties' (member organisations) en 'Sympathiserende organisaties' (sympathizing organisations) both mentioning "per 1 mei 1989" (on May 1st, 1989). In the article the 'Vereniging Basisinkomen' it says "The organization was created in 1991 .." So that list might be applicable to an 'ancestor' of this organisation but if that's the best you have to prove the topic of this article is important enough, then to me that looks like a good reason to doubt its notability. - Robotje (talk) 10:53, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • After having gone through the sources listed above, I have to !vote to delete this article. Just about all of the sources mention the organisation in passing. This would verify that the organisation exists and what they do, but this is not sufficient to establish notability. The VPRO coverage above, for instance, talks about the notion of a guaranteed minimum income, not about VBI. The Vivant award was a nomination of one VBI member for an insignificant award by an only somewhat notable party. The one sentence acknowledgements in several books do not create notability either, imo. The source that came closest to establishing notability was Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Hoffnung: Reformfähigkeit und die Möglichkeit rationaler Politik. But like the other sources, it verifies the organisation's activities, but it doesn't establish the notability of the subject. Aecis 19:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep The topic has organized two major international events which have received full media coverage, a jubileum conference with media coverage, and dozens of study sessions and open discussions with notable speakers (i.e. with their own Knowledge article, including scientists, members of parliament and trade union leaders). It received a starting capital from Dutch trade unions and political parties and for a long time was located in a trade union building. It received a subsidy from the city of Amsterdam for many years. Its representatives, in that capacity, have been speakers and session leaders on countless events organized by notable organizations (i.e. with their own article on Knowledge) on invitation, which lead to further media coverage of the topic. Its work has inspired eight political movements to advocate the introduction of a basic income, and recently forms of a negative income tax were in fact introduced to the Dutch tax system. If topics like these no not belong in Knowledge, then Knowledge should be emptied or renamed to 'Pokemon Wiki'. Guido den Broeder (talk) 09:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Even the Dutch wikipedia is certain this isn't a notable organization. LucianoHdk (talk) 19:43, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The issue here for me is if 5 or 6 independent reliable sources (which only mention the topic) is enough for notability? My understand and reading of WP:CORP#Primary_criterion is that it is enough. The intent being that those source establish notability but the articles contents does not have to come from independent reliable sources, as it can come from source that are not independent of which there are quite a few. So for me it's a clear keep but others may disagree WP:CORP is only a guideline after all, so I don't wish to speed another moment looking at the topic. SunCreator (talk) 13:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
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The result was merge to Portage Public Schools.. Fabrictramp (talk) 00:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

AfDs for this article:
    Amberly Elementary School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Aside from being non-notable, it discusses educating aliens from other planets; this article is complete nonsense. Frog47 (talk) 12:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    This entry was created for instructional purposes only. My students were very impressed with how quickly this was edited. I am removing the nonsense paragraph now that we are done with our discussion. • Pbutts (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 15:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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    The result was Keep. Stifle (talk) 11:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

    Informavore (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Transwikied article, that only consists on dictionary content. Speedy deletion per CSD A5 was denied. If kept, please focus on subject rather than on the term Leo Laursen – ☏ ⌘ 11:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    • Keep. It seems like non-dictionary content on this is available, and it looks like a notable term. (I thought it was a neologism at first, but apparently not.) It definitely needs expansion away from being a dicdef, though. Anturiaethwr (talk) 13:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment - dictionary content is not a reason for speedy deletion. CSD A5 applies to content that has been transwikied to Wiktionary only. Neıl ☎ 14:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
      Informavore was transwikied to wiktionary 04:26, 7 February 2007. I realize that given the timespan, the use of A5 it is up for debate. – Leo Laursen – ☏ ⌘ 15:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
      The page does not exist as a full page on wiktionary () - it's sat in their transwiki holding pen, still, which is why I couldn't find it (). It seems like it could be readily expanded beyond a dictionary definition, so keep. Neıl ☎ 19:43, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
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    The result was Delete. Stifle (talk) 11:26, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

    Antagonist incorporated (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Group does not appear to be notable - I don't think that any there is any reliably sourced information available with which to verify the content of the article. Guest9999 (talk) 11:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    • Keep. The article definitely needs work, and "Antagonist" itself was not notable, but it was part of a dot-com that had at least minor notability as part of AOL's "Greenhouse" business unit. I added some (hopefully) reliably sourced and verifiable content to the article, in the hopes that it can be salvaged in some way, perhaps as part of an article regarding its parent dot-com. ANTPogo (talk) 03:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The result was Keep. Although there is some debate about where to draw the line in terms of inherent notability and royal succession, it appears that consensus is that 5th in line is notable in and of itself. Certainly this should be reconsidered if a later, more concrete, consensus develops that would exclude this article. Pastordavid (talk) 18:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    Princess Eléonore of Belgium (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Simply not notable. She is a 1 day old baby born to royal parents. So what? She can have an article when she actually does something in her life in, say, 10 years. Editorofthewiki 10:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    • Delete Not notable in her own right. One can be the member of a notable group, listing, etc, but that does not make an individual notable. Maybe once she has official duties or is known for something other than being born. Charles 10:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • keep Some people may well be anti-monarchy, at the end of the day she is still notable, regardless of age, due to being of royal descent. With the obvious caveats of protection for a child, there's no reason to delete; in the event of tragedies, she would be Queen of Belgium, no? Minkythecat (talk) 12:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    I've got to step in: I am a monarchist and I vote to delete this. Obvious caveats of protection for a child? Eventually would be queen of Belgium? Sorry, but I don't know how these could apply anywhere for the qualification of keeping this article. Maybe you should read the discussion on the article's talk page. Knowledge is not a genealogical respository. The only places this princess is notable are in her parents' articles and in the article Line of succession to the Belgian throne. That's it. Do you know how many pointless or unnecessary articles we would have if we gave every single British dynast an article? Notable groups exist, not everyone in them is notable. Maybe you should follow what you say on your user page? Charles 12:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    Charles, we can't give a page to every single British dynast, because some of them are completely unnotable, ie they are so far down in line, and their royal connection is limited to a great-grandparent, so they have no title, the monarchy they are descended from was abolished, etc. However, we do have articles for all of the British dynasts who are current members of the British Royal Family. Eléonore is a dynast of the Belgian royal family, and she is actually a member of that family, and moreover, the daughter of the future king. Morhange (talk) 18:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    Who are you to say that they are not notable? I could write an article on most of them with more than is written about little Eléonore of Belgium. How many times do I have to say that other people having articles doesn't justify this one? Really, Viscount Windsor shouldn't have an article nor should Lady Louise. Look what's written about them! Royal watcher cruft, painful attempts at worthwhile articles. Daughter of a future king does not matter, there is no guarantee that that will happen and if I were to hypothesize as well I would say that Eléonore will likely never become queen. Notability is not inherited. Picture that written in big font 10 or so times as I'm too busy to do it myself. Charles 15:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    WP:CIVIL. Just a hint there, tiger. There's somewhat of a difference between this page and some of the fluff in wiki. Minkythecat (talk) 12:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    Civility isn't an issue which needs to be brought up, nothing uncivil has been said on my part. Charles 12:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    Of course not; examining the user page of respondents to attempt to debase their arguments for/against points is of course entirely civil. My bad. Now, this is my last response to you or your comments; the AfD will take it's course and the community decide... Minkythecat (talk) 12:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    How is it always notable? Show me where in Knowledge's policies and guidelines. I know royal houses are always notable and lines of succession are, just not the people in them always. Thank you! Charles 12:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep due to being in the top-10 list in succession. While I disagree that being in the royal house is automatic nobility, being high up in the line of succession is. If this person were 40th in line it would be a different story. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 13:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    Why the cut off at ten? Charles 13:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    Ten is a bit arbitrary, but it's a convenient number for European monarchy other than England. For England I would go as high as 20 or maybe 30, for relatively insignificant monarchies I might limit it to the children of the monarch or even the heir-apparent. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 21:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    Limit articles to people who have actually done things, list the others where appropriate (lines of succession). Knowledge is terribly inefficient and long-winded when it comes to this stuff. Charles 20:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep. Being fifth in line to the Belgian throne, she is definitely notable. Aecis 13:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep Every time there's a royal birth somewhere there's this same pointless discussion with the same inevitable conclusion. She's a princess and she's fifth in line for the throne and, regardless of her age, that's notable. The 'child protection' argument for deletion is specious as well, she's a member of a royal family, she's a person in the public eye no matter how young she is. Nick mallory (talk) 14:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    ...because people continue to vote "keep" without elaborating on their positions and default to a baseless argument of "royalty = notable". Charles 15:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    Comment regarding royal=automatically notable: In this case, it's not important that royal=automatically notable. The fact that she's 5th in line for the throne and that this particular royal family is famous makes her notable. If she were a new Saudi Prince and 527th in line for the throne, or even 20th in line, then you could legitimately claim the person isn't notable. Ditto if she were 5th in line as King of a non-famous royal family, such as some of the tribal kings in third world countries who are neither head of state nor head of the national government. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 16:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep I agree with Nick mallory. She's notable. If Prince William had a child, would his article be deleted? Eléonore is fifth in line to the throne of Belgium and the daughter of a crown prince, which makes her notable. People are going to be interested in her no matter what, because she is born into a royal family. Morhange (talk) 16:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment I have opened a general discussion about the automatic notability of royalty and members of other seemingly notable groups. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 16:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep. The baby is notable in herself, and there is going to be an article on her sooner or later anyway.--Berig (talk) 17:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • WP:SNOW? At 8 to 4 in favor of keeping, and the likelihood of anything happening to tilt the discussion in favor of deletion being approximately zero, if nobody else says "delete" within 48 hours of the original proposal, I think we can Ignore All Rules and speedy-keep this thing. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 17:12, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
      • Let the AfD run its course. A snowball keep would be a misapplication of the snowball clause. 8 to 4 in favor of keeping is not grounds for a speedy keep. If it were 11 to 1 in favor of keeping, that would be different. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:24, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep per all the arguments for notability above. Also, reccomend against a snow close. The delete arguments are not without merit and this AfD is a healthy one for the project. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs
    • Keep per the above - sufficiently high in the line of succession to be worth a mention despite her lack of personal achievements to date. I also concur with Gwynand that a WP:SNOW close is not necessarily wise when there are valid delete arguments. ~ mazca 19:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment First off, this should definitely not ba snow, and I will nominate little British babies for deletion once this is over. The arguement that royalty=notability must have forgotten that Notability is not inherited. So far, she has done absolutely nothing in her life except being born to notable parents. As to the users who say she is simply notable, how so? Those who argue that an article will be created sooner or later must know that in "later" you must mean 10 years fom now, when she actually takes on official duties. Perhaps if she becomes queen we can have an article. But currently, her rankings don't mean a thing, as people who are 20th in line of the throne have done more notable things in their lifetime than she has. Should they have an article? No! This article is nothing more than a factoid with templates, telling where she was born, who her parents are, and who her godparents will be. Perhaps her family will always be in the spotlight, but not her, at least for another few years. If she brings an attention to a cause because she gets some sickness we can have an article. If she for crying out loud does something that does not involve her relatives we can have an article! All the relevant material can and should be merged into her parents' articles.

    Also, I may note that the de or fr wikipedias do not have articles on her, and they would be where information would be. Most of the keep votes seem to be WP:ILIKEIT or some sort of policy that hasn't been adopted yet. We do have a thing called Wikinews for up-to-date info and this article will most likely remain a useless factoid for years to come. Editorofthewiki 19:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    Comment on notability of royal infants in general: I very strongly disagree that notability is not inherited when it comes to The Baby Crown Prince, and I disagree when it comes to other babies very high in the line of succession such as this girl. I agree when it comes to babies some distance down the line of succession, and I strongly agree when it comes to babies way down the line. IMHO, if the US Constitution said that the President could name the top-10 people in the line of succession to the Presidency without appointing them to an actual office as is the case today with Cabinet members, everyone in that list would be notable by virtue of being on that list. If he was allowed to name the top-100 people in the line of succession, those lower on the list would not automatically be notable in my opinion. The same logic applies to royal births. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 20:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
        • Please give me a policy for this. Absolutely nothing can be written about her except factoid-like information that would better belong in the parents' articles. Editorofthewiki 23:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
          • I'll do better than that, I'll quote WP:N:
    “ ” “ ”
    • Keep. I'm satisfied, in the absence of any other standard such as the rejected Knowledge:Notability (royalty), to include holders of titles, heirs apparent and presumptive of heads of state, and the progeny of both of the above. Outside of that circle, again inclusive of holders of titles, there isn't any need to have separate articles on the children. To Editorofthewiki, I'm always leery of the "it isn't on the other-language Knowledge" argument, because all of those are smaller than EN Knowledge. (The argument does work in the other direction for the same reason.) Also, it's not the DE but the NL ... and there is one there.) --Dhartung | Talk 20:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep She is notable. Lucifero4
    • Comment at least partially establishing notability: Her birth was announced in the Sydney Morning Herald, the newspaper of record for Sydney, Australia. You can argue that it was her parents, not her, that were newsworthy, but even so, I added it as a reference. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 21:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment Welcome to the world of royalty, Eleonore. If you were a "commoner", these same people wouldn't think twice about deleting this oh-so-sweet article. Mandsford (talk) 22:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Speedy keep. I can't believe this was even nominated. StAnselm (talk) 03:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • KEEP. Member of a royal family. Knowledge has lots of articles like this, like Princess Alexia. Mr Store (talk) 04:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
      Most of which should be deleted, by the way. One fault doesn't justify another. Hopefully a sensible policy or guideline will come into existence to get rid of these pointless articles. Charles 04:31, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep - She is the male-line grandaughter of a King, and daughter of future king. I really wish that people would realise that royalty are notable for being royalty, they don't need a seperate point of notablity. --UpDown (talk) 07:12, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
      • Yes they do. She's just a little baby that has done nothing in her life. None of you are acting on any relevant policy and you are simply saying that royalty=notabilty. Let me ask you a question. Has this baby ever actually ruled a country? In fact, she hasn't only not ruled a country, but she doesn't even know she is royal yet! Most of these votes seem to be because you want to be royal or some other idea that notability is not inherited. Editorofthewiki 09:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
        • Yes, it does.The whole point of royalty is that they are famous for being who they are. You really can't seem to understand that basic fact. You last sentence is totally unsupported and verging on uncivil. People have different opinions, we believe royalty are notable for being royalty, you don't. You seemed to be getting awfully worked up about this and I don't see why. Accept that not everyone shares your view.--UpDown (talk) 11:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Delete per Editorwiki and Charles. Honestly, I'm not aware of anyone who was "fifth in line" who ended up as the ruler of a nation. The little princess should be mentioned in an article about Belgian royalty, sure, but her own biographical page, no. Like every baby born on April 16, she's "special", but she's not special enough for her own article. I can see where the heir apparent or the heiress presumptive might rate an article, but fifth in line, no. However, Ed and Chuck, looks like we're in the minority on this one. I don't get it either. Mandsford (talk) 12:55, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
      • I was always told that even if you are right, expect people to disagree with you. This, however, is just laughable. I can see very, very little persuasion the side of the "keep" people. Their numbers are seemingly greater given the people who have replied so far but I don't need to tell people they are wrong for much longer when it is so painfully clear! Charles 15:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
        • You really are bordering on being offensive, in assuming that everyone who disagrees with you does so purely because they're stupid and/or misinformed. In the absence of a definitive policy on the notability of royalty, it really does come down to peoples' personal opinions on what's notable and what isn't in this context. Someone who, quite feasibly, could ascend to the Belgian throne is, in my view, pretty notable. This is obviously a matter of opinion but it doesn't give you the right to accuse everyone you disagree with of being 'wrong'. ~ mazca 01:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
          • You really are doing nothing but causing grief by trying to make a speech on personal opinions. I, personally, find a lot of what happens on Knowledge to be offensive to the sensibilities of most people but you will not see me point it out over and over again unless it directly relates to the subject at hand. If you have an issue, take it to my talk page. Eléonore obviously doesn't meet the criteria for being notable in her own right. End of story :) Charles 20:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
            • Wait, where are all the times I've 'pointed this out again and again'? As far as I noticed that was the first time I've even mentioned it, and I felt it was worth mentioning because the only two people arguing for this articles' deletion are doing so by repeatedly stating that the keep votes are all somehow incorrect or misinformed. ~ mazca 21:27, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
      • Comment to Mandsford: In ye olde England, several people who were way down on the list usurped the throne. I don't have data to prove it, but I suspect that some of the 1st-in-line successors to long-lived monarchs were 5th or further down the line when their predecessor took the throne. All that needs to happen for this little princess to inherit is for her to outlive her older siblings and for them to die childless. While this isn't terribly likely in modern times, children dying childless happened frequently in the time before modern medicine. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 17:50, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Strong keep - 5th in line- its enough V1 14:14, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep - Member of a reigning Royal Family daughter of the heir apparent to the throne has received much coverage in media I have found articles in many languages through Google News. Her birth has been covered. Today she has been presented to the media and more to coverage to come with baptism she's clearly notable. - dwc lr (talk) 15:19, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    Yes, but the references are trivial. Whoopee, she was born at so-and so and weighed so-and-so. If she was born to any other family this would be undisputable, but since notabilty is inherited, her notrable parents qualify her for an article. Editorofthewiki 21:12, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment: Ironically this could have been done by any editor and probably would have gone uncontested. Now that a lot of people are watching the article any redirect without discussion will be reverted. In any case, if there is a redirect it should be a regular revert not the delete-and-create-redirect that usually comes out of AfDs. Since her public life and as much of her private life as the popparatzi can get will probably be chronicled in the press, by the time she's in grade-school we will probably have much more than her birth details to go on. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 14:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
    I do agree that a regular redirect should be created, and I should have been bold in doing so, but whatever the result of this afd, I will do so anyway, since the closing admin will probably do a votecount without examining the arguements. Ah well, this will be a landmark afd. Editorofthewiki 16:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
    If you do, please create a section so the redirect can point to the right place. That way, incoming wiki- and external-links will point to a place that makes sense. Also, given that there will likely be objections, possibly even strong ones, please discuss it on the talk page before doing it. I think you will have a lot of support for a redirect but you may or may not have consensus or even a majority. If there is no consensus to redirect, please keep it the way it is to avoid a time-wasting edit war. If there is no consensus, you can always reopen the discussion every few months until a consensus develops one way or the other. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 18:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
    By consensus do you mean a votecount of editors? As in this, the afd is likely to fail despite the illegitamate points of several users. Listen. I'll just be bold and do it and if anyone disagrees, I will discuss on talk. While I hate saying this, the article is simply royaltycruft. Editorofthewiki 20:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
    I do hope you'd discuss it on the talk page first, rather than possibly violate WP:POINT Minkythecat (talk) 20:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
    And how again am I disrupting Knowledge? I am actually helping it by removing unencyclopedic info. I will Be Bold, and in case someone disagrees with it, I will be happy to discuss it. Editorofthewiki 20:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
    And you then run the risk of people reverting you, causing you to potentially 3RR. If it's discussed and agreed by consensus then, that's a far more practical way to do it. Minkythecat (talk) 20:57, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
    Additionally if you don't agree with someone's point it doesn't make it illegitimate. In the absence of an official policy on royalty, as I said before, it comes down to what people personally feel is notable and it seems pretty clear to me that the consensus is strongly against you in terms of how notable royalty are. While a closing admin shouldn't merely votecount, when the difference in numbers of keep and delete votes is this massively different it's hard to claim the other voters are all wrong. ~ mazca 21:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
    The articles on the Earl of Wessex's children should really be deleted. One fault doesn't justify another, I imagine people are intelligent enough to realize that. Wait until this princess is actually notable in her own right before giving her an article. Charles 19:13, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

    * Keep The fact that she is born into a reigining royal family is reason enough for her to have her own page here, I think. Royals are interesting people because they are royals, their rights derive from this and nothing else - whether we're republican or monarchists should not have anything to do with this discussion. --Rosegarden (talk) 23:18, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

    The consensus is strongly against you here Charles, I hope that you don't believe you yourself have a royal perogative to 'boldly' change long established norms against the will of the overwhelming majority here. The whole point of a royal family is that they're notable for who they are, not what they do. You may agree or disagree with the concept of royalty but by any reasonable definition of the word, this young lady is notable. I hope you will abide by the decision of the closing administrator here, otherwise you're going to waste a lot of people's time for no good reason. Nick mallory (talk) 10:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
    I am pretty sure the only way to waste one's time on Knowledge is to do it one's self. Most people haven't spent enough time here for it to be wasted. I see "royalty = notable" and not much more from many people, most of whom I imagine just watch AfD because they like to vote (?). Am I correct in believing that you are implying that I am unreasonable in believing this baby is not notable? I can assure you that I could push the same belief about the "other side" but it would get me in trouble now, wouldn't it? Your statement "The whole point of a royal family is that they're notable for who they are, not what they do." is false. The whole point of a royal family is to provide dynasts and successors and suitable marriage partners in political matchmaking. Will you produce articles on every single royal simply because they are "just notable as they are"? Honest question. If it doesn't make sense, neither does saying all royalty is notable. Charles 10:28, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


    The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The result was Keep. Consensus seems that this is not necessarily a POV fork, but rather a fork of a long article in accord with summary style. The title, however, strikes me as a little POV, and I would suggest renaming as discussed below - but that is an editorial decision for the talk page and not an AfD decision. Pastordavid (talk) 18:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    Lack of outside support in the Warsaw Uprising (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    "Research into the lack of support of the Warsaw Uprising is (according to historians such as Norman Davies) currently very difficult due to lack of access to archives". Maybe that explains why this reads like a personal essay and lacks proper references. Sadly, I don't think Knowledge is a great place to remedy the fact that this subject is inadequately covered (under this title) in the sources. Guy (Help!) 10:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    It isn't an essay at all but a historical truth, but the title of this article is too provocative. It remains me of the witch hunt conducted by the once London based Polish government in exile responsible for failing of the Uprising years ago, and they still looking until this very day - who to blame? - anyone but us. greg park avenue (talk) 18:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Delete as a POV fork. The alternative is "Lack of outside support for ..." articles on all losers of wars (and this wasn't even technically a war). --Dhartung | Talk 18:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep. I really don't see a problem here. Four years ago in August, the article was initiated as a split from main article on the Warsaw Uprising. It was since expanded from 5,487 characters to 19,942 characters including a list of reliable sources. What it needs is a good edit from the League of Copyeditors, that's all. Please keep things in perspective. --Poeticbent talk 18:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep Properly sourced, and a legitimate spinoff of material too large to incorporate into the main article about the Warsaw Uprising. Mandsford (talk) 22:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep. Subarticle of the Warsaw Uprising; an old FA. It was suggested during the FA process to split up some long sections of the article into the subarticle to make it readeable. I am not disputing that this article can use much improvement, but to delete it as a fork would be an error. It is a notable historical issue and the article contains valuable content not used elsewhere on Knowledge.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    If not a POV-fork, it should be elementary to demonstrate its independent notability by producing a couple of books or academic papers specifically addressing the lack of outside support and not the uprising in general. Once that's done, I will change my !vote. --Relata refero (disp.) 22:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    There are many specialized scholarly articles related to this issue: , , , , , and many others.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    Silly Piotrus. Those books are in Polish and are therefore biased and cannot be used. Ostap 01:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    I can't speak to Ostap's point, but the English books don't deal with "lack of outside support" so much as "the Warsaw Uprising as part of the War overall", which might be the location for a suitable article. They don't quite back up this article. --Relata refero (disp.) 06:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    So no updates on this, then? I'm sorry, but that means that it doesn't need a separate article, and can be dealt with quite effectively within the main article to the degree that it is important. --Relata refero (disp.) 08:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
    If you can't you can't but personal attack by Ostap should be dealt with. greg park avenue (talk) 18:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    False alarm, Greg. I know Ostap well enough to be sure he was just being sarcastic and he doesn't mean that :) That said, Ostap - remember WP:SARCASM (no need to confuse others who don't know you like Greg).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    Now I see. You gave him a barnstar and that's why he calls you silly. Nice touch! greg park avenue (talk) 18:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    I second that as the most sound suggestion and in Wiki style until now. To balance the POV fork I would also suggest to add the other side POV neglected until this time by the emigree publishers - a section titled "Vatican support during Warsaw Uprising" or lack of it, but it supposed to be titled just like that to presume good faith and hope that something survived. greg park avenue (talk) 17:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    Agreed, the title is better.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:20, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    "Foreign" is OK with me, sounds even better in retrospekt to "Lesni" meaning Home Army guerrillas. "Insurgents" smells of New York Times milder name for terrorists, too politically correct, doesn't apply for 1944 Uprising. greg park avenue (talk) 19:55, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment: The word "support" implicitly suggests an allegiance as opposed to mere involvement, so I propose to disambiguate this even further with a move to: Foreign involvement in the Warsaw Uprising. This could detail foreign assistance provided to both Poles and the Axis. I don't agree with the word "insurgents" though, it sounds too politically motivated. WilliamH (talk) 19:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    And that's the right word - "allegiance" - the merit of this article is "support" - no one then in 1944 expected mere involvement from anyone - only from those who pledged allegiance meaning France, England, Home Army guerrillas, later Soviet Union and the Roman-Catholic Church in Rome with its pledged since centuries moral support. So I stay with your previous version, slightly modified Foreign support in the Warsaw Uprising. greg park avenue (talk) 22:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep + Expand This article should simply be an expansion of a section in Warsaw Uprising and there is no POV in the title (that fact that outside support was very weak is supported by mainstream historians). The only problem is that it seems this article is shorter than corresponding section in the main Warsaw Uprising article. --Doopdoop (talk) 20:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep or merge. As Piotrus noted, back in 2004 many people believed that articles longer than 30 or so kilobytes should be split onto separate sub-articles. This proved a disastrous tactics as main articles got updated to 2008 wiki standards while sub-articles are neglected and did not change much since then. Virtually no in-line citations, no pics, nothing. Having said that, I'd support re-integration of all sub-articles listed at {{Warsaw Uprising}} into the main article. If that's not possible - I see no need to delete it. //Halibutt 22:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment: I'd like to clarify my position on this discussion. I certainly think that 3rd party involvement in the Warsaw Uprising is notably encyclopedic; the thing I find most problematic is the title. I understand the keep sentiments put forward by contributors to this debate, but "Lack of" is strikes me as a troublesome POV fork. If consensus deems the article worthy of keeping, great, I just think it would be far more balanced and appropriate to give the article a title which doesn't allow partiality to be implicitly suggested. I don't really have much else to add. WilliamH (talk) 20:39, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
    Reply. Perhaps you are right about the title. But nominating an article for deletion is not a proper way to discuss renaming.Biophys (talk) 02:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
    Re: Quite right. WilliamH (talk) 13:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Strong delete. POV title and fork. If there is something in this article valuable, which needs preservation, such info can be transfered into WU article.M.K. (talk) 08:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


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    The result was Speedy-K. Consensus makes it clear. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 15:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

    Star Wreck (book series) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Repeating my PROD rationale: "No assertion of notability, no independent sources given; largely a plot summary". PROD was contested with request to list the article on AfD. B. Wolterding (talk) 07:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    You may want to review your searching methods. Google News is a good place to search for news coverage. Celarnor 16:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    It's actually important to read the sources, not to simply count search results. --B. Wolterding (talk) 19:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    Of the seven sources you give, four are actually about the movie Star Wreck, not about the book. One is, as you mention, about an entirely different parody. The other two seem to be identical by the abstract, and may be about the book we're talking about; unfortunately I can't read them since they are only available for a fee. --B. Wolterding (talk) 19:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    You can check them at your local library via ProQuest. The sources all mention the book, albeit in varying degrees of detail. Others may think it isn't notable on its own, but its clearly notable in its relation to the movies; at the very least, it should be merged to the article on the movie. Celarnor 20:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
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    The result was Merge/redirect to Frenzy (World of Darkness). Stifle (talk) 11:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

    Wassail (World of Darkness) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable fictional "disease" or "syndrome" that afflicts vampires. --Craw-daddy | T | 07:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    Other forms of Frenzy (Frenzy and Rötschreck) have been merged to Frenzy (World of Darkness). I think this should go there also. --Jhattara 09:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    Actually I just merged the contents of this article to Frenzy (World of Darkness). I think this discussion should be aborted and the article changed into a redirect page. --Jhattara 09:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
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    The result was Delete. Rjd0060 (talk) 18:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    Øyvind Hammer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Not notable, no secondary sources, bordering on advertisement. Should not be confused with a notable paleontologist by the same name. Punkmorten (talk) 07:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    • Delete. This was the most extensive RS thing I could find and it barely rises above trivial mention (an introduction, and a quote or two, in an article about the athlete he coaches). The quotes are things like "nothing surprises you when you're prepared", pretty standard stuff. --Dhartung | Talk 07:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Delete Doesn't appear to be notable. Article's assertion of notability is vague, but includes "working with" an athlete, whose article doesn't mention this person. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 11:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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    The result was Delete. Rjd0060 (talk) 18:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    Mohamed Korna (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Bio of an aspiring young poet who graduated from college last year. Fjmustak (talk) 07:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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    The result was merge to Werewolf: The Apocalypse. Fabrictramp (talk) 00:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

    Metis (World of Darkness) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable fictional werwolves. No references outside of fan sites and original game book sources. --Craw-daddy | T | 07:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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    The result was Speedy delete by Jmlk17 (talk · contribs). Non-admin closure. JuJube (talk) 07:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    Daniel Hartly (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    The page is a biography of the user who created it. Please feature this sort of content in your user page instead. CycloneNimrod (talk) 06:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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    The result was Speedy Delete G11 by another user. Non admin close. See log for details. Have a nice day. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 02:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

    Brandon blankenship (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Clearly a biography on the user in a place other than their user page. CycloneNimrod (talk) 06:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    • Delete vain vanity in vain. JuJube (talk) 06:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Delete. Pure vanity page, written up as a bio (or maybe autobio?). No notability, no resources, just a description of somebody who's apparently got some rap mix tapes and is ostensibly really good at basketball. Sorry, but being good at b-ball isn't notable unto itself, you gotta be a pro and be really good. Look at Magic Johnson. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 07:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Delete Looks like an autobiography of someone completely non-notable. A clear case for a deletion. vlado4

    (talk) 07:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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    The result was Delete. Rjd0060 (talk) 18:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    Underground following (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Little more than a dicdef coupled with a dash of original research. Prod removed by author without comment. JuJube (talk) 06:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    or cult following, which would make more sense Doc StrangeLogbook 20:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


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    The result was Delete - Djsasso (talk) 22:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    American Superstar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Unsourced information; unconfirmed info of being Flo Rida's next single Esanchez(Talk 2 me or Sign here) 04:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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    The result was delete. Singularity 02:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    Calculus Mortuus Amulet (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Appears to be a hoax. 0 hits on Google and Google Books. No references. Biruitorul (talk) 04:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    Every book with any ref is in Latin, if you speak the language, then by all means google it, I have several books that I am going through right now to post more "facts" and it doesn't help that I have no experiance with HTML.. DO NOT DELETE, I am waiting for my 4 days to pass so I can upload a photo from a book FROM THE LIBRARY.


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    The result was Delete per WP:NOT#MEMORIAL. Stifle (talk) 11:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

    List of victims of the Columbine High School massacre (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    A list of victims of a school massacre certainly cannot be notable can it? Perhaps the few who are can obviously keep their respective articles, but otherwise, a deletion or merge is necessary. WP:NOT#MEMORIAL, and perhaps even WP:NOT#DIR seem to back my nomination. Jmlk17 04:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    • Keep Wiki is not a memorial, in that wiki does not exist to catalog everyone's family and friends who died. However, these people died in a very notable event, several of whom are themselves notable. I would require much stronger reasoning to go for delete, and two previous failed noms seem to support keep. erc 05:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment The argument that a notable tragedy makes each of the victims notable enough to be listed by name would extend logically to a tsunami which killed 200,000 people or a war that killed 20,000,000 people, wouldn't it? Ready for a list of people killed in World War 2? Edison (talk) 19:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep The event is notable. I initially felt that a merge was necessary, but the main article is already long enough to warrant this list as a separate article. Parkerjl (talk) 05:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Delete per WP:NOT#MEMORIAL . Memorial purposes are the only reason for listing these names as if they were inscribed on a monument. We do not need a list of these unfortunate victims any more than a list of everyone killed in a plane crash, hurricane, tornado or a fire. The catastrophe or mass murder may have been significant and notable, but the random victims generally are not when they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. If they took actions which affected the course of events, as in inciting or attacking the killer, or holding the door shut to give others time to escape, then their role should be stated in the main article. Edison (talk) 05:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Merge/Keep. as per above. Fattyjwoods 06:12, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep per WP:NOT#MEMORIAL. Really. The second line of which states that people being honored must be notable in some way, which I think the victims here collectively are. MEMORIAL is meant to prevent Knowledge from becoming littered with Memorials to Great-Grand Uncle Jimbo, not to prevent notable tragedies from being recorded. Bfigura 06:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Strong Delete per WP:NOT#MEMORIAL. As the prior !vote stated: The Event (the "notable tragedies") are notable, most of the people do not acquire notability for being peripherally involved (that would be inheireted). Another supporting argument keeping this Memorial at bey would come from the spirit of WP:BLP1E. Exit2DOS2000 09:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep - having read the 2 previous discussions I am persuaded that it is either merge or keep. Having looked at the (long) article, merge would lead to a necessity to break out a separate article not unlike this one. (A list of people does not confer or imply individual notability.) -- roundhouse0 (talk) 09:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Weak Keep. The incident itself is, no doubt, notable. I don't think that a list of the victims violates WP:NOT#MEMORIAL. Reason: This list is not primarily of memorial purpose. It gives real faces to a horrible crime. That is, in my view, notable. --Abrech (talk) 09:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Keep While people that are involved in a notable event don't necessarily gain notability themselves, I believe that these did, due to the nature of the event. I agree with many above that a merge would be appropriate; however, the main article is too long as it is, so it should stay. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 11:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
      • Would your line of logic then allow 'victims' of a notable bridge collapse' to be similarly listed? How about a notable Roof collapse? The nature of the event makes the event notable, does it not? What you (and some others) are suggesting is an exeception to the rule because this event was special... but...Every event is special to someone. Exit2DOS2000 05:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Delete - per WP:NOT#MEMORIAL. "Subjects of encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered." Being shot by a madman does not entail notability.--WaltCip (talk) 12:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • And this is a Wikilawyer, by asserting that the "list" is the subject in question, rather than the "victims of the Columbine High School massacre." Lists in any case don't assert notability.--WaltCip (talk) 18:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Delete Wiki isn't a memorial, nor are these people notable except for the tragic way in which they died. Given they are notable for that event only, the only rationale for me to keep would be if listed in the page for the event. Minkythecat (talk) 12:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Delete - There is nothing here that is not already in the main article Frog47 (talk) 12:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Delete I don't see how this can be anything other than a memorial. The people listed are only tragically notable for being victims of this massacre - but Knowledge is the place to list things which are notable in an encyclopedic sense. Even if this is merged into the main article, I think the names and pictures wouldn't add much information. --Minimaki (talk) 13:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Delete. Again, I don't think this list is suitable under "Not a Memorial". The victims can be listed in the main article, but otherwise the event is notable, but the victims (sorry) aren't. And just for the record I'm not in favor of listing the victims of 9/11 in Knowledge other, except for the fact that a number of them achieved notability before and as a result of actions on 9/11. But we have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise we're going to have people wanting to create lists of victims everytime something bad happens, whether it be a bad bus crash or a school shooting i.e. Dawson College, Montreal, etc. 23skidoo (talk) 13:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp (talk) 17:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Delete, particularly since there is already a list of the victims in the main article. I can understand the feelings of those who want to keep the article, but this is exactly why there is a rule that says that "Knowledge is not a memorial." Separate lists of victims are not to be made, ever. Although that may seem like a harsh rule, these 13 persons are not supposed to be considered more worthy of a memorial than 13 people killed in a bus wreck in Zimbabwe, or in a car bombing in Baghdad. Mandsford (talk) 22:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • STRONG MERGE If any of you have run into me before, you probably know how sensetive I am about the whole ordeal there. Defineitly a merge. KC109. (I'm in the process of making a new sig)— Preceding unsigned comment added by KC109 (talk • contribs)
    • Umm... yeah... ok... I don't see how this taints that at all. Merge to main article. Definitley not the whole memorial policy thing. Why do we have the Virginia Tech list still up? P.S. nom... that list isn't going anwhere... fourth nomination. (Still working on that sig).
    • I don't understand why it does not apply. Please explain more. A/ Your saying that nobody ever related to one of the listed victims has never, and will never, ever edit this article?? B/ Your saying that these people are notable for something other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Exit2DOS2000 02:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
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    The result was Delete per WP:NOT#MEMORIAL. If you disagree, please go right ahead and open a DRV. Stifle (talk) 11:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

    List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    A completely unencyclopedic article. Perhaps a couple of the victims are notable in their own right, but being one of many victims of a famous crime doesn't exactly bring notability does it? Furthermore, this article does nothing more than list the victims, certainly not conforming to guidelines under WP:LIST. All this can easily be merged with the parent article. Jmlk17 04:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    • Keep Speedy keep As the fifth nomination fourth nomination, I would expect compelling argumentation for the deletion of this article, which I just don't see in light of four three previous noms. erc 05:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    Perhaps speedy keep is too strong, as the article has drastically changed from the previous noms from a well-researched article with lots of facts to a mere list. I wonder what concensus there was for the change, as I can't find it. In any case, I changed my vote (let's not kid ourselves here, this is a vote after all) to keep, as I still think stronger reasoning is needed. erc 05:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Delete per WP:NOT#MEMORIAL . Memorial purposes are the only reason for listing these names as if they were inscribed on a monument. We do not need a list of these unfortunate victims any more than a list of everyone killed in a plane crash, hurricane, tornado or a fire. The catastrophe or mass murder may have been significant and notable, but the random victims generally are not when they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. If they took actions which affected the course of events, as in inciting or attacking the killer, or holding the door shut to give others time to escape, then their role should be stated in the main article. Edison (talk) 05:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Merge. I would suggest a merge with the Virgina Tech massecre page. I don't think it needs its own seperate page. Fattyjwoods 06:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. Singularity 02:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    U.S. Defense Budget Trends over the past 50 Years: An Annotated Bibliography (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    An essay / annotated bibliography. While this may be a notable topic, the article is pretty much pure original research / synthesis. Prodded, but author declined. Bfigura 04:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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    The result was Delete - While tragic WP:NOT#NEWS -Djsasso (talk) 22:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    Zaid Meerwali (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    WP:NOT#NEWS - doesn't look like this man had any claim to notability in life, and his death appears to be tragic but ultimately not notable. There appears to have been a short burst of coverage at the time of his death, but no enduring impact. Gets 297 ghits. Mangostar (talk) 04:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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    The result was Speedy Delete per A7 - Non-notable person. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) 06:22, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

    Christopher Alexander McCowan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    An autobio of a 17 year old. Non-notable except for a claim to be running for president of the US in 2008. Somewhat unsuprisingly, a google search reveals only a handful of promotional blog postings and no reliable sources. Bfigura 04:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    • Comment Sure you do. Just not here. --Dhartung | Talk 06:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Chris, the fact remains tat you don't seem to meet the notability requirements here at Knowledge, you provide no reliable sources, there is a major conflict of interest in your authorship, and you write this as if it were a promotional page, complete with a list of favorites. We are not, amongst many other things, a place for self promotion, let alone of a teenager who is running for president. The only external link you provide is a Myspace page - this is not even near reliable for sourcing purposes. We are an encyclopedia. For what it's worth, by the way, the US Constitution, Article 2, Section 1, specifies that you must be no less than thirty five years old to run for the president of the United States of America - and frankly, sir, you are not even old enough to vote. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 06:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. Singularity 02:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    Annotated Bibliography: The Future of International Accounting Standards (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    A pure original research-y essay on accounting standards. (The author thoughtfully notes that this topic was picked in conjuction with his honors thesis). Maybe a good paper, but not for an encyclopedia. Bfigura 03:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC). I am also nominating the following related page as it appears to simply be a duplicate of the essay:

    Annotated bilbiography international accounting standards (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)


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    The result was Speedy Delete per WP:CSD#G6 - uncontroversial maintenance. Pedro :  Chat  08:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    Threshing-board/Old (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Unneeded sub page. -- Alan Liefting- (talk) - 03:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    The link to the page is not showing correctly. I am referring to Threshing-board/Old
    These votes were placed while the AFD pointed to Old.
    • Delete the subpage As it's not needed, and just duplicates content on the main page. (Although couldn't this just be handled with a prod or a G6 Speedy?) --Bfigura 06:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
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    The result was No consensus. Stifle (talk) 11:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

    Records Management Taxonomy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Neologism, fails WP:Not: Knowledge is not a dictionary. Wyatt Riot (talk) 02:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    I'm not arguing that it's uncommon in certain contexts. Knowledge policy even admits that neologisms "may be used widely or within certain communities" but the fact remains that Knowledge is not a dictionary. Wyatt Riot (talk) 10:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
    There is context beyond a simple dictionary definition. Wisdom89 (T / ) 15:12, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
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    The result was Delete. Stifle (talk) 11:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

    Kumar (cuban music) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Amagon rosh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) formerly authored Kumar y mate and was speedied through CSD G7. I have reason to believe this article is essentially the same as Kumar y mate and hence should be seen as speedy dispute. Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 02:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    Kumar y mate

    I have written this article through this name because it was deleted the first time with "Kumar y mate" because it was nearly the same as the name of the artist "kumar" and otherwise it was more relevant to have Kumar with cuban music because it is cuban music. Now I can writte in the article that the name of kumar is Kumar y matte, gives links leading to articles and youtube video.

    Do you think i will be enough not to delete the article on wiki? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amagon rosh (talk • contribs) 08:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

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    The result was No consensus. Stifle (talk) 11:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

    Danza contemporanea de cuba (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Amagon rosh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) formerly created Danza Contemporanea de Cuba (note capitalization) and the latter was prodded by Tone (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). Since Amagon rosh recreated the page with a similar name, this should be considered a prod dispute. Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 02:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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    The result was delete. Veinor 23:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    Scott Klein (bodybuilder) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
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    The result was Speedy delete for the third time by User:Esanchez7587, non-admin closure. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 01:13, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    Ridin Slow (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable single, fails WP:MUSIC ukexpat (talk) 00:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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    The result was delete. Singularity 02:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    Albert Fisher (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    an unreferenced obituary about a good but rather nonnotable person. Hence verifiability problems. In particular google search did not help me to become wiser. `'Míkka>t 00:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

    • Delete The article is a biography of a common honest man. Not notable delete.(Lucifero4)


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    The result was delete. Singularity 02:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    Restoration Lullaby (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable album by non-notable artist who is also the author of the article. Speedy tag was removed without comment by an anon IP. --Finngall 00:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


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    The result was delete. Singularity 02:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    Mr. Connecticut (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)


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    The result was Speedy close Possibly bad faith nom by SPA; Zhou is very, very notable. Non-admin closure. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 01:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

    Zhou Enlai (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    unknown chinese figure between the 1940s-1970s. Hardly well known Creamycoffee (talk) 23:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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